Just How Restrictive Is It To Work In Thailand?

[up2you2]

Work permits even for artists.

Copied from the Phuket Gazette, Issues and Answers ...

I'm 70 years old and retired and I like to paint pictures for pleasure.
I have had some inquiries about selling some paintings, and I may even stage an exhibition one day, but I understand that I will probably need a work permit to do either of these.
Can I call myself a "part-time" artist on my work permit?

PG
Kathu

An Officer at the Phuket Provincial Employment office replies:

Yes, you need to have a work permit. Whether your work is full time, part time, paid, or unpaid, you need a work permit to do it.
Even if you want to exhibit your paintings in a gallery without selling them, you need a work permit.
And yes, you can apply as a part time artist. However, in order to be issued with a work permit, you need to be either be an employee of a business or operate a business yourself.
If you operate your own business, it must be majority owned by Thais, in terms of shareholders, no matter how small or big it is.
This means your company cannot be more than 49 per cent owned by foreigners.
If you are staying in Thailand on a retirement visa, you have to contact the Phuket Immigration Office to change your visa from a retirement visa to a non-immigrant "B" visa, which will allow you to conduct business and work.
For more information, call the Phuket Provincial Employment Office at 076-219660.

[chrisinth]

As you can tell from the reply from the Phuket Provincial Employment, pretty restrictive....................

[Lite Beer]

Moved to Visa Forum

[arthurwait]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

[lopburi3]

To work you need employment from a Thai company and a work permit.

[CHRISTIANa9]

What about my head office sending me to do some work in a subsidiary based in Thailand? Do I still need a different visa? So far I have been using tourist visa.

[lopburi3]

You should have a non immigrant B visa for any company type business and doing work would require a work permit - even if only a temporary emergency type permit.

[GottaGo]

I'd say 80% of EFL teachers here don't have the proper paperwork, but they are more or less protected by school/company exploiting them having connections.

Working on your own in a way that is invisible to your neighbors, e.g. via the Internet isn't a problem as long as you keep your mouth shut.

Doing something that competes effectively with a Thai business can get you into trouble, even if in theory you done everything legally, if they are powerful enough they will often find a way to shut you down, sometimes up to and including using violence, which of course includes action by police or other government officials in their pocket.

As long as you're losing money, your business is pumping money into the economy then no problem everyone's happy - except you when it runs out.

So yes, pretty restrictive. . .

[FalangBaa]

Very restrictive in terms of the salary you will earn! The average salary seems to be about 20 times lower than Norway, but unless you eat cheap Thai street food and live in a Thai-style basic room without air con or kitchen, your costs will definitely not be 20 times lower. My costs in Thailand are about the same as in Europe, because I like to eat Western food regularly, dine in nice restaurants and live in a swanky apartment.

[joeaverage]

beyond assinine

[GottaGo]

Very restrictive in terms of the salary you will earn! The average salary seems to be about 20 times lower than Norway, but unless you eat cheap Thai street food and live in a Thai-style basic room without air con or kitchen, your costs will definitely not be 20 times lower. My costs in Thailand are about the same as in Europe, because I like to eat Western food regularly, dine in nice restaurants and live in a swanky apartment.

Then you'd definitely have a hard time getting by in the US as well.

[samran]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

Indeed. People expect that work permits in their home countries are somehow easier.

[kriswillems]

You need a work permit. The law is very restrictive.

However, I often see foreigners selling things on the local market (especially Burmese, but also farang). I see the same farangs already for 6 years. It's very unlikely they have a work permit. I know more English teachers without a work permit that those with one.

In tourist destinations the police often has more knowledge than in small cities or on the countryside, so the chance you get caught is bigger there.

Getting a work permit for your hobby looks like it might become be a very expensive or even impossible thing. I doubt that it's all worth it, unless you'll sell your paintings for millions.

Edited June 2, 2013 by kriswillems

[kriswillems]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

Indeed. People expect that work permits in their home countries are somehow easier.

In my home country a foreigner selling own paintings as a hobby, might need a work permit. But I am sure that nobody will complain about it if he/she doesn't have one. The same is probably true for Thailand. Edited June 2, 2013 by kriswillems

[arthurwait]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

Indeed. People expect that work permits in their home countries are somehow easier.

In my home country a foreigner selling own paintings as a hobby, might need a work permit. But I am sure that nobody will complain about it if he/she doesn't have one. The same is probably true for Thailand.

Indeed again. I imagine most Thai people don't even know the law let alone care. An honest immigration officer will just tell you to get on with it as no one cares.

[PoodMaiDai]

Yes, you need to have a work permit. Whether your work is full time,

part time, paid, or unpaid, you need a work permit to do it.

Even if you want to exhibit your paintings in a gallery without selling them, you need a work permit.

Talk about a repressive, xenophobic society. The fact that one can not even do something for FREE in Thailand without a work permit shows you just how much they really hate foreigners. You can spin it anyway you want if it helps you sleep at night, but not allowing someone to do something they love (a hobby) for free is repressive and stems from pure hatred and fear that you may do it better than they can.

I remember reading that immigration in Phuket arrested some volunteers who came to help during the tsunami because they didn't have work permits to help in that time of desperate need. That is both unbelievable and shameful.

[PoodMaiDai]

Doing something that competes effectively with a Thai business can get you into trouble, even if in theory you done everything legally, if they are powerful enough they will often find a way to shut you down, sometimes up to and including using violence, which of course includes action by police or other government officials in their pocket.

Happened to my mate in Pattaya. He opened a shop about a mile from another shop with the same service. He did really well out of the gate, no doubt due to excellent service and extended operating hours.

To start with, he had all the proper paperwork but that did not stop Pattaya immigration from raiding from 4 or 5 times and taking him to jail each time where he had to spend hours, and they always did it late at night so it was difficult for him to get in contact with his lawyer. After they left him alone with that finally, his large front store window front got a brick thrown through it for about two months straight, window after window, he was replacing a few a week. Then eventually some masked goons ran in and destroyed the place, attacking both him and his wife, destroying the entire shop. The police came out, took and 1/2 assed report, nothing ever came of it and they close down the shop. It didn't even make a single mention in any of the local media outlets. No doubt all of this was 100% bought and paid for by the competitor who obviously was very well connected.

Like Joshua said in War Games, "the only way to win is not to play". Besides nuclear war, never has that had so much meaning than it does in Thailand.

[balo]

Just do it , work as an artist without WP, its a gamble but most probably nobody cares. If they do some tea money should solve the problem.

[arthurwait]

Yes, you need to have a work permit. Whether your work is full time,

part time, paid, or unpaid, you need a work permit to do it.

Even if you want to exhibit your paintings in a gallery without selling them, you need a work permit.

Talk about a repressive, xenophobic society. The fact that one can not even do something for FREE in Thailand without a work permit shows you just how much they really hate foreigners. You can spin it anyway you want if it helps you sleep at night, but not allowing someone to do something they love (a hobby) for free is repressive and stems from pure hatred and fear that you may do it better than they can.

I remember reading that immigration in Phuket arrested some volunteers who came to help during the tsunami because they didn't have work permits to help in that time of desperate need. That is both unbelievable and shameful.

This and your next post are talking about 2 cities with a very corrupt reputation and you are tarring all Thais with the same brush and you are calling others xenophobic.

How does anyone know if you are doing this work/ hobby for free or actually recieving money for it ?

He can paint as a hobby without a work permit, but he can't make money from it or maybe do it for someone else, but if it's a business or looks like it might be a business he can't. As said an honest immigration officer would just tell him to get on with it.

[TerryLH]

"I remember reading that immigration in Phuket arrested some volunteers who came to help during the tsunami because they didn't have work permits to help in that time of desperate need. That is both unbelievable and shameful"

Perhaps a bit of research on that incident would be beneficial for you, and help you understand just why that was done..

It was some of the volunteers who were acting shamefully.

[Tanis]

es, you need to have a work permit. Whether your work is full time, part time, paid, or unpaid, you need a work permit to do it.

Even if you want to exhibit your paintings in a gallery without selling them, you need a work permit.

So let me guess I need to hire a beautiful thai to hold my wang while taking a piss? What exactly is "work"? sheezh!

[bkk_mike]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

If they're in the country legally... - It will depend.

i.e. In the UK, if you're there on a settlement visa (i.e. spouse), then yes, you'd be allowed to work. (Your visa says whether you can work or not - you don't need a separate work permit).

For people on student visas, it will depend on when they were originally issued. i.e. A couple of years ago, there was an issue with "students" never attending classes and only working, so new student visas generally don't allow working, but if you originally got your visa when working was allowed, you're grandfathered in...

For people on holiday visas, you're generally not allowed to work.

If you're working for yourself and have no employees, then yes, you can be a sole trader, and you don't have to set up a company or anything. You're simply allowed to trade on your own behalf.

There are some caveats:

If your turnover is high enough, or expected to be high enough, you would have to register for VAT.

In the 70s, they introduced rules that stated that if you work through an agency you could no longer be a sole trader, and had to either be an employee of the agency, or employed through your own company, so would have to set up a company. But even there, you can own the company outright, there's no rules on foreign ownership.

Also, in the UK, work isn't as severely regulated as it is here. - i.e. Nobody would consider sitting painting landscapes as working (except if it was on commission, so there was a payment involved at the time). Similarly, does Thailand even have the concept of Pick Your Own, where a farmer will let members of the public onto his fields to collect fruit that they then pay for. (They get REALLY fresh fruit at a decent price - he doesn't have to pay people to pick it, or pay a middle man). i.e. That wouldn't be considered work in the UK (as you're not getting paid for it), but I'm pretty sure it would be illegal in Thailand if the farmer were to let a foreigner pick fruit.

In Thailand the rules for what's considered work are so ridiculous that simply mowing my own (wife's) lawn is apparently breaking the law as it's written.

[JDGRUEN]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

Indeed. People expect that work permits in their home countries are somehow easier.

Work in the USA .. Not legally - but in the USA we have about 20 million illegal aliens who are working and owning businesses and property. They ignore almost all the laws. Basically - if you a bit cunning - no matter where you come from - if you want to live and work in the USA Illegally - you can and you will likely to get away with it for years and years If caught nothing much happens.

Edited June 2, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[Exsexyman]

Very restrictive in terms of the salary you will earn! The average salary seems to be about 20 times lower than Norway, but unless you eat cheap Thai street food and live in a Thai-style basic room without air con or kitchen, your costs will definitely not be 20 times lower. My costs in Thailand are about the same as in Europe, because I like to eat Western food regularly, dine in nice restaurants and live in a swanky apartment.

Yeah right! Are you a teacher here? Or are you just showing off? Answers on a postcard etc, etc,-----

[thrilled]

Thailand is so restrictive on employment,That if A farang owns the bar he is not allowed to sweep the floor.

[asiaexpat]

The ability to freelance in any field of endeavor in Thailand is very limited. I suggest you find a Thai owned gallery and make an arrangement with the to employ you and support a work permit.

[wpcoe]

from OP:

And yes, you can apply as a part time artist. However, in order to be issued with a work permit, you need to be either be an employee of a business or operate a business yourself.
If you operate your own business, it must be majority owned by Thais, in terms of shareholders, no matter how small or big it is.
This means your company cannot be more than 49 per cent owned by foreigners.

If she is an American, would the Amity Treaty permit her to own a sole proprietorship without Thai co-owners or employees? If so, that's ONE of the hurdles eliminated.

[pitchag]

Is all volunteer work in thailand subject to a work permit? I know several Tourist police and police volunteers who do this work without obtaining a work permit also have never been asked buy the stations they work at to produce one

[Mario2008]

All volunteer work requires a work permit, unless exempt by royal decree.

[GottaGo]

The law in theory and enforcement in practice are very different things.

If you are employed by the organization that is supposed to enforce the law you will presumably be OK as long as you stay on their good side, or until the right hand finds out what the left is doing.

Worst case is just deportation anyway, unless they use it as an excuse to get at you for something else you've done.

We're all subject to their whim anyway.

The Amity treaty is only worth doing for a large business, never heard of it being used for a small sole-proprietorship/freelance operation, requires expensive lawyers that know what they're doing.