What Is A Ladyboy?

[Guest endure]

Endure ... you know I adore you ... but please don't pidgeonhole all gay men into your definition of what gay is ...

some gay guys like femme ... some like butch ... some like old and fat (thank goodness!

How many gay men do you know that like a nice big bouncy pair of tits and a fanny? (that's the English fanny BTW).

How many ladyboys do you know that want a gayboy as a boyfriend?

Edited June 23, 2006 by endure

[jdinasia]

Ladyboy covers a WIDE range of options endure .... many keep the sausage and taters ....

and in Thai until recently they didn't even have the loaner word "gay" and ALL femme guys were called Kathoey ... (even the STR8 femme guys)

[pkrv]

Endure I agree in my opinion the vast bulk of gay men are not attracted to ladyboys - however there is huge diversity.

Perhaps if I said this odd 'choice issue' that keeps coming up from various sources, may actually hold an answer.

If you ask (a male) the question have you ever slept with a women y/n

And the second question Do you find ladyboys attractive y/n

There may be more of a coloration? I know what my answer would be.

[Guest endure]

Ladyboy covers a WIDE range of options endure .... many keep the sausage and taters ....

and in Thai until recently they didn't even have the loaner word "gay" and ALL femme guys were called Kathoey ... (even the STR8 femme guys)

I think our (yours and my) problem is not in the definition of 'gay' but in the definition of 'ladyboy'. My definition is a person who has embarked on changing their body from male to female through the use of chemicals or surgery and who therefore, by definition, believe themselves to be more female than male. The fact that many of them still have the meat and two veg is because they can afford the drugs but can't afford the surgery. I believe I've mentioned it before but there was a programme on UK TV some years ago about katoeys in Thailand. It was a little sensationalised but there were a number of scenes filmed in the dressing rooms at Alcazar and Simons in Pattaya. Without exception all the katoeys at both places were saving like mad to have full ops. When asked why they said it was because they wanted a straight boyfriend/husband and having their bits re-arranged was he best way to do it. I realise that a dressing room at a drag show isn't a scientific sample but the unanimity of purpose was quite amazing.

[jdinasia]

The workers at the major Cabartes in Thailand represent what percentage of ladyboys?

I would suggest that they are NOT representative of the majority of ladyboys in Thailand.

I think perhaps you should use transexual instead of kathoey/ladyboy as the word. Most of the ladyboys I have met are NOT wanting surgery ... but they aren't Cabaret stars either!

[Guest endure]

Endure I agree in my opinion the vast bulk of gay men are not attracted to ladyboys - however there is huge diversity.

Perhaps if I said this odd 'choice issue' that keeps coming up from various sources, may actually hold an answer.

If you ask (a male) the question have you ever slept with a women y/n

And the second question Do you find ladyboys attractive y/n

There may be more of a coloration? I know what my answer would be.

In my case the answer to both questions is a resounding no. As far as gay men are concerned I think a more valid question would be 'do you find people with female breasts attractive' or 'do you find people with a full set of female sexual organs attractive'.

[Guest endure]

The workers at the major Cabartes in Thailand represent what percentage of ladyboys?

I would suggest that they are NOT representative of the majority of ladyboys in Thailand.

I think perhaps you should use transexual instead of kathoey/ladyboy as the word. Most of the ladyboys I have met are NOT wanting surgery ... but they aren't Cabaret stars either!

There you are then - a matter of semantics I shall try and avoid ladyboy threads in the future.

[jdinasia]

Don't do that! ... just help folks understand your point of reference!1!

you're a smart guy! It's a joy having you around!

[Guest endure]

Don't do that! ... just help folks understand your point of reference!1!

you're a smart guy! It's a joy having you around!

Gee! You'll make me blush

[farang prince]

The workers at the major Cabartes in Thailand represent what percentage of ladyboys?

I would suggest that they are NOT representative of the majority of ladyboys in Thailand.

I think perhaps you should use transexual instead of kathoey/ladyboy as the word. Most of the ladyboys I have met are NOT wanting surgery ... but they aren't Cabaret stars either!

There are a lot of misconceptions about Thai ladyboys. Since apparently I'm one of the few in this forum who is in a LTR with a ladyboy, perhaps I can help clear up a few things. Someone earlier said that discussions about ladyboys really don't belong in the "Gay" forum and for the most part they are right. They should have their own forum because Ladyboys really are unique. They are men who seriously want to be women. For my lover, that decision began when she was 8 years old. The Thai government estimates that there are about 180,000 ladyboys in the country. I think they have underestimated. Based on conversations I have had with many ladyboys who are friends of my lover, I think there are closer to 250,000. Virtually every village, small town and city have ladyboys. Another misconception about ladyboys is that they are promiscuous. That is like saying all gays are promiscuous. As we know, some are, some aren't. Same with heterosexuals. In my lover's case, she only had one lover before me. And it was rather unsatisfying. That is a problem with ladyboys...finding a good sexual partner. Based on my lover's experience and what the other ladyboys told me, many Thai men don't engage in foreplay with ladyboys...just wham bam thank you ma'am. That proves to be very unsatisfying to many of them. The ladyboys that are in the sex trade business have told me that Europeans and Americans often want to engage in foreplay, especially mutual oral sex. Virtually every ladyboy I know (excluding those in the sex trade) are bottoms and usually not versatile bottoms at that. So if you are a versatile top, it takes some patience before you are will achieve sexual compatibility. Another misconception about ladyboys is that they are psychologically mixed up. Again, that is a broad generality that can't be defended. Most ladyboys know exactly what they want -- to be women. If anything, most of them are very at ease with this decision, perhaps more so than many gays who must stay closeted to keep their families happy. Still, the final decision to go from pre-op to post-op is a daunting one for most ladyboys. There is a required psychological review, but more often the ladyboys I know consult with their friends (and sometimes their families) before making the final decision. In the vast majority of cases, they go through with the surgery. After all, it is the culmination of their goal. And incidentally, unlike an earlier post, I have never heard of a post-op ladyboy committing suicide. Another misconception. Lastly, I wish the Thai government would allow civil unions between same sex partners. My partner and I are establishing residency in Canada in order to be able to attain our civil union. It is the one way I can be assured that my partner will have the same legal rights and benefits as heterosexual partners. Is being with a ladyboy exciting and exotic? I can only answer for myself. I have a wonderful life partner who I love very much. We have had all the same issues to resolve that any trans-cultural relationship has. We also know that our lifestyle is not universally accepted -- even here in LOS. But for us, it works, because we have honesty and great communication. And that is the key to most successful relationships, don't you think?

[DUMPSTER]

Another misconception about ladyboys is that they are psychologically mixed up. Again, that is a broad generality that can't be defended. Most ladyboys know exactly what they want -- to be women. If anything, most of them are very at ease with this decision

In earlier posts I stated that ladyboys are psychologically mixed up and I stand by that because even though they might know they want to be women the fact is they are in the body of a man and every day they have to hold their penis and piss and hopefully wash it from time to time. This must have some sort of psychological impact on them because they want to cut it off. If you want to cut a part of you off, in this case your penis, im sorry but this has to have an impact on your psyche, dont you think?

[OxfordWill]

Yes but I suppose farang prince would say that it no more a psychological problem than a hetereosexual male who is ashamed of his man-boobs and wants to lose weight. Plastic surgery is, after all, taken more often by straight people than gay people. I'm not sure this detail makes ladyboys any more 'mixed up' than the rest of us.

[PeaceBlondie]

I may start a separate new thread about the Thai movie with English subtitles, "Last Dance," which I saw this week with my boyfriend (who doesn't like gays who even act like ladyboys). My point here is to say that Thailand has changed immensely in the last 30 years (my b/f said it's more like 20 years). Questions that Uncle Go was answering back then are quite different from what the personal advice columnists might get now.

You see them in every village, surely every secondary school, and even in the primary (prathom) schools - Thai boys who understand they are gay, even before their bits get big. There is a freedom or a toleration now that gives such young people real choices, the kind of choices the characters in "Last Dance" never dreamed of. It's a remake of a very old Thai movie.

Two mature gay men in Thailand told me in 2003 that there are four categories of "gay" men. King, queen, versatile, bisexual. And we all know there are sub-categories.

Until the Thais get their definitions updated and agreed upon, it's confusing.

[DUMPSTER]

Yes but I suppose farang prince would say that it no more a psychological problem than a hetereosexual male who is ashamed of his man-boobs and wants to lose weight. Plastic surgery is, after all, taken more often by straight people than gay people. I'm not sure this detail makes ladyboys any more 'mixed up' than the rest of us.

Reducing your love handles or increasing your bust size, or for that matter, increasing and reducing any part of your body for vanity, cannot be compared to the removal of your penis, can it?

But my point is that, it is not the removal but the fact that a would be female has to live with a penis until it's removed that causes psychological issues. I would also say that imo more transexuals than gays have some kind of social acceptance problem.

[OxfordWill]

I may start a separate new thread about the Thai movie with English subtitles, "Last Dance,

It seems everyone is talking about this movie right now.

I would also say that imo more transexuals than gays have some kind of social acceptance problem.

Yes, I'd agree with that certainly.

[kat]

I've always had friends from the gay and lesbian community all of my adult life. I also knew plenty of gay men in the states who did drag. Even as a close friend to the gay community, transexuals were shadowy figures who didn't exactly fit neatly into the gay/lesbian community. There were even outright clashes with Male-to-Female (MTF) transexuals and the lesbian community concerning women only space. For a while, some of the women's music festivals started qualifying admission to "women born women" only.

So, they are traditionally not part of the same community.

I have never knowingly been friends with a MTF transexual until moving to Thailand. I am pretty much a live and let live person, as long as innocent people are not hurt. I am open to all good people, regardless. I don't see the sense in adding to someone's suffering in life, if they are not hurting a soul. That being said, I think all different versions of communities have their unique issues and MTF transexuals are not exempt. I was recently befriended by a MTF who did not tell me, and I figured it out. I went online and found out a lot about this particular group as a whole. This is not going to tell you everything about an individual, but it will tell you a lot about different issues that the group as a whole encounter.

One thing is for sure, the surgery is so incredibly painful during and afterwards, there is no way someone would endure it unless they were in a great deal of emotional longing to be a woman. There is no way anyone would undertake it lightly. I have a great deal of empathy for them.

However, I also must admit, as a group, MTFs do seem to veer more towards narcicssim(sp), and this is also mentioned in a lot of the research that I came across. I've also heard personal accounts of this from other women who have interacted with other MTFs. I think the previous poster who mentioned that they spend so much time thinking about their bodies and how they would look or want to look, or can choose to look through plastic surgery, was spot on. Some of them still have a certain attitude which is very male, in that they don't really like women but revel in believing that they are actually better than women born women. And to counter that, there are others, including ladyboys, who want nothing more than to be accepted by other women and to share a sisterhood.

I think that as MTFs, it is a bit more complicated than simply defining them as women. This doesn't mean that I disagree with them identifying as women, or changing their i.d, but in reality they are still different. They are never going to be women in the same regard that women born women are women. I understand that this is not politically correct, and maybe I still have something to learn or consider in this regard. I am not saying that they are less, but simply indisputably different. I was born a girl, bleed every month, and have no idea what it is like to have been born with a penis; they do. Even after sex reassignment, they still have prostrates, and a male brain.

However, there is nothing wrong with difference. I am not afraid of it, and I can accept a MTF transexual as a friend with a good heart same as I can accept a woman or man. I just hate pretending that everything is the same when it isn't.

[ProThaiExpat]

Bravo farang prince, well said and your proximity adds credence.

Straights in this column understandably may not be as close to effeminate gays as gays are so understandably can be confused by men who act like women and men who want to be women.

Having been married for a decade to a woman and having a child, I have had the experience of transitioning from women to men as primary sexual objects. In doing so, I found that my initial experiences (or preferences) were with effeminate men, my first later became a woman through surgery.

I have migrated somewhat more toward more masculine men as attractive sexual objects but yet never gotten to the point where the very butch ones attract. Thus a young man who has effeminate features but doesn't act effeminate is sexually attractive to me.

Men who act like women don't bother me at all as there are many women in my life who I adore. However, I am not sexually attracted to anyone effeminate either in looks or acts.

We only need go back two hundred years in France to see true heterosexuals dressing and acting like, what we today, think of as effeminate or ladylike. Definitely cultural.

Most gay men who are attracted to the butch gay man or heterosexual man know that if they act effeminate, they will attract this type of man more easily.

In Thailand, without the christian/judean imprint, straight men have little difficulty having opportunistic sex with men, but my Thai advises that true "men" always take the "top" or penetrator role with another man and if the gay man wants this type of male, ie. a straight man for sex, acting effeminate is a major advantage.

From my own experience as outlined above and from what I have observed, some gay men will affect effeminacy as a means of obtaining their sexual objective, that is to couple with a straight man or a transitioning gay one.

I put it all on a gradient scale, whether its right to left or top to bottom, or butch straight to flaming queen, we men can all find ourselves somewhere on the male scale. Mentally, however, we are all men and want to stay that way. Those who are or want to be women should find there place on the female gradient.

Edited June 24, 2006 by ProThaiExpat

[Guest endure]

If I die in my sleep tonight I will be eternally grateful to Thailand for one thing above all others and that is the ability not to 'think too much'. I used to be a typical farang, analysing everything into its tiniest proportions, worrying about whether I was too butch or not butch enough, wondering why I was gay (I was fortunate enough to realise I was gay when I was 12 and didn't have to go through the whole am I, aren't I thing when I was 27). Lots of western folk are critical of the Thai mai bpen rai attitude, finding the fatalism involved in it to be defeatism. I must admit I'd much rather mai bpen rai than indulge in the constant critical analysis of myself and others that is the norm in Farangland. It produces much confusion and few, if any, answers.

Edited June 24, 2006 by endure

[DUMPSTER]

I think that as MTFs, it is a bit more complicated than simply defining them as women. This doesn't mean that I disagree with them identifying as women, or changing their i.d, but in reality they are still different. They are never going to be women in the same regard that women born women are women.

Well put Kat. I agree they are never going to be women.

Bravo farang prince, well said and your proximity adds credence.

Does it? Could also be said that it was very biased and one could also be blinded by love.

I must admit I'd much rather mai bpen rai than indulge in the constant critical analysis of myself and others that is the norm in Farangland. It produces much confusion and few, if any, answers.

If you dont want to think too much then a discussion board isn't really the place for you, don't you think? Too many posts would be banal, infact too many posts are.

I generally find, if one is open to take a look at oneself and question what it is that is making them unhappy, for example, then often they will come to an understanding of what it is. Of course if you don't want to take a look then, I agree, it can only lead to confusion and suffering. Anyway before understanding, that is finding an answer to your problem, there is always confusion. It has nothing to do with being a westerner or a Thai. The fact that more westerners appear to have more problems than Thais isn't a reason to condemn them or say that Thais are so wonderful because of mai bpen rai. Everybody has problems and different people from different cultures deal with them in different ways.

I have questioned myself as to the point of posting on a forum. I know, deep down, my time would be better spent, say, doing meditation rather than reading and contributing on here. I know that, but I also accept that this distraction is only that, a distraction and when I am ready I will move on.

Endure have you thought about moving on? All this western analyzing must be getting to you. So much for mai bpen rai.

I guess it's not the understanding it's the action.

[PeaceBlondie]

If you went to the exterme of "don't think too much," I doubt you'd even bother with many of the forums on ThaiVisa. Not that we folks are profound, but we have some good discussions, often.

The difference, from what little I understand about Thai culture, is that they don't go down the path of analyzing things that are beyond their control, or that wouldn't result in worthwhile change.

To the Thai young men who think they are some kind of gay, they surely must (?) ask themselves what that means for their life, how they will express their sexual urges and preferences. They no longer say, if they ever did, "Well, maybe I'm a woman trapped in a man's body, but everybody expects me to act macho (Thai style), so I'll get married, have kids, and not have sex with other men." Even my b/f who's now 38 understood, back in 2521 at age 10, that he preferred playing with the girls, and acting like girls, although like me, he's never worn female clothing or spoken in falsetto. He said to me yesterday, "We're gay, but we're not katoeys." He had said, at first, that katoey and gay mean the same thing, but when I pinned him down (figuratively ) he agreed they're not synonymous.

We're on the move to Chiang mai as I write this at the airport.

[Guest endure]

If you went to the exterme of "don't think too much," I doubt you'd even bother with many of the forums on ThaiVisa. Not that we folks are profound, but we have some good discussions, often.

The difference, from what little I understand about Thai culture, is that they don't go down the path of analyzing things that are beyond their control, or that wouldn't result in worthwhile change.

Yo! Somebody's got the point!

Edited June 25, 2006 by endure

[Guest endure]

Endure have you thought about moving on? All this western analyzing must be getting to you. So much for mai bpen rai.

I guess it's not the understanding it's the action.

No, I haven't. I read TV for my own reasons - not just the gay forum. Why do you need to start being personal?

[DUMPSTER]

The difference, from what little I understand about Thai culture, is that they don't go down the path of analyzing things that are beyond their control, or that wouldn't result in worthwhile change.

You mean they wouldn't be having this kind of discussion and others like it because it's pointless?

No harm in thinking, we need to think, it's what you do with the thoughts that matters. This is one of the problems people have with meditation, they try to stop their thoughts.

quote name='endure' date='2006-06-25 17:35:04' post='793063']

No, I haven't. I read TV for my own reasons - not just the gay forum. Why do you need to start being personal?

Just asking a question. You appear, to me anyway, critical of this thread and those who are voicing their points of view.

I think we all know interpretation can be difficult on a forum so maybe i'm wide of the mark.

No offence meant.

Edited June 25, 2006 by DUMPSTER

[redrus]

What Is A Ladyboy?...... Is that not quite self explanetory.....!!!!!

OP; "Am I Gay???"

redrus; "most chuffin definiately you are"

redrus

[thankuverybig]

i wonder whether thailands long history of concubines & prostitution,is part of the reason why there are so many lady men in thailand.a sort of evolution into an anything goes sort of land,sexually.

i still find it hard to believe that a man would have the full operation for sexual reasons,considering that after he may never have an orgasm again,or definitely reduced pleasure.

i read somewhere that ,who we think we are is only a vague approxination of who we really are,because, who we really are is to painful to face up to,eg .vulnerable,not really in control of our lives,a pissing & shitting & farting,abused, human being.

maybe its the change of identity,not wanting to deal with who they really are,& so they create this new identity which they have control over.

boll@@cks i hear somebody cry!

[DUMPSTER]

maybe its the change of identity,not wanting to deal with who they really are,& so they create this new identity which they have control over.

boll@@cks i hear somebody cry!

I can see your point.

<deleted> boll@@cks, I hear somebody else cry!

Edited June 25, 2006 by DUMPSTER

[redrus]

i wonder whether thailands long history of concubines & prostitution,is part of the reason why there are so many lady men in thailand.a sort of evolution into an anything goes sort of land,sexually.

i still find it hard to believe that a man would have the full operation for sexual reasons,considering that after he may never have an orgasm again,or definitely reduced pleasure.

i read somewhere that ,who we think we are is only a vague approxination of who we really are,because, who we really are is to painful to face up to,eg .vulnerable,not really in control of our lives,a pissing & shitting & farting,abused, human being.

maybe its the change of identity,not wanting to deal with who they really are,& so they create this new identity which they have control over.

boll@@cks i hear somebody cry!

maybe its the change of identity,not wanting to deal with who they really are,& so they create this new identity which they have control over.

boll@@cks i hear somebody cry!

I can see your point.

<deleted> boll@@cks, I hear somebody else cry!

Give over you pair o Queens.................

redrus

[Guest endure]

Just asking a question. You appear, to me anyway, critical of this thread and those who are voicing their points of view.

I think we all know interpretation can be difficult on a forum so maybe i'm wide of the mark.

No offence meant.

And you appear, to me anyway, to take personal umbrage when anyone posts an opinion that's different to yours to the extent that you seem to need to have a little pop at them. No offense meant.

[Guest endure]

The difference, from what little I understand about Thai culture, is that they don't go down the path of analyzing things that are beyond their control, or that wouldn't result in worthwhile change.

You mean they wouldn't be having this kind of discussion and others like it because it's pointless?

No harm in thinking, we need to think, it's what you do with the thoughts that matters. This is one of the problems people have with meditation, they try to stop their thoughts.

ult on a forum so maybe i'm wide of the mark.

I was expressing an opinion. That's what places like this are for.

[Guest endure]

maybe its the change of identity,not wanting to deal with who they really are,& so they create this new identity which they have control over.

Or maybe they've figured out who they really should be and are brave enough to take the chemical and surgical steps necessary to get there.