The Farang Cultural Divide

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Khon tang chaat = foreigner.

Only once i have been reffered to on that way.

By a massage woman.

Khon tang chaat is used very regularly in Thailand I can assure you. I personally and my Thai spouse/friends use this term extensively. Not sure if this term, although more formal than farang is absolutely appropriate in all situations to describe a non-Thai person because incorrect assumptions can be made on the basis of this word. For example, while few westerners have been granted Thai citizenship, it would be offensive to refer to a westerner with Thai citizenship as a khon tang chaat, because clearly that person has been granted Thai citizenship and is thus Thai! However, the word farang is often used to differentiate between Thais and foreigners even though there is such a thing as a "farang Thai" as I have just described. Another equally borderline inappropriate word is "khaek" literally meaning "guest" but is used for anyone from the Indian subcontinent or who appears to be from there. No matter their citizenship or residency status in Thailand, Thai citizens of Indian origin are still referred to as "guests".

Perhaps as Thailand becomes more multicultural (it probably will in the next few decades) terms like white person/black person etc. will become more common than just farang but this remains to be seen.

Just to point out 'Kairk' is a insult to describe indian/arab races.

Thai saying 'jer kairk gap jer ngoo, dtee kairk gon'

[David48]

<snip> Most foreigners associate exclusively with the barely literate.

AOA ... please do not take the liberty to generalise on my behalf.

Thanks

.

[benalibina]

<snip> Most foreigners associate exclusively with the barely literate.

AOA ... please do not take the liberty to generalise on my behalf. Thanks.

He wrote MOST !!!!!

[boosta]

One of the problems with Thai language, is that very few foreigners meet Thais who can explain the meanings in English.

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I personally wouldn't pay much attention to such an explanation anyway, I only speak English to my kids and students, and am offering my observations from 15 years of living here conversing in Thai.

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Most foreigners associate exclusively with the barely literate.

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Since most Thais are barely literate, and those that are well-educated often have little to do with us farang, no surprises there.

[boosta]

I know that we haven't had that debate of the Forum for a few months ... but let the sleeping dog rest ... please!

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little late for that isn't it

Maybe should be a sticky?

Edited June 15, 2013 by boosta

[David48]

<snip> Most foreigners associate exclusively with the barely literate.

AOA ... please do not take the liberty to generalise on my behalf. Thanks.

He wrote MOST !!!!!

Yeh ... but I consider myself an average poster here ... no better nor worse then anyone ... so when the term 'most' is employed, it does reflect on me.

Actually, to honest ... I like to associate with a broad spectrum of Thai people. Heart and soul does not come from the mind.

I value heart and soul as much as I value a sharp intellect.

But heck ... that's just me.

Carry on ...

.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

<snip> Most foreigners associate exclusively with the barely literate.

AOA ... please do not take the liberty to generalise on my behalf. Thanks.

He wrote MOST !!!!!

Yeh ... but I consider myself an average poster here ... no better nor worse then anyone ... so when the term 'most' is employed, it does reflect on me.

Actually, to honest ... I like to associate with a broad spectrum of Thai people. Heart and soul does not come from the mind.

I value heart and soul as much as I value a sharp intellect.

But heck ... that's just me.

Carry on ...

.

You live on a farm in a rural area, I'm just wondering how you expect to meet a "broad spectrum of people"

In the rural area where my lot live almost everyone left school at age 13, all I could meet there were poor ignorant illiterate farmers.

(not that I have anything against those people)

[Slip]

Not sure if you're posing a question or implying something I don't understand. I understood that in Thai, it's polite to address by profession, as in Kuhn Kruu, Kuhn Moh etc. Is that what you're implying?

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Yes part of what I see as the cause of some foreigners interpreting Thai's use of their language as disrespectful is that we think most of the time it's "polite" to use someone's name.

While Thais will often use an "objectifying" word to substitute for that, without meaning any disrespect.

My SO telling the new maid "The old guy likes to eat toast for breakfast" (Geh chawp gin toast dton chao) isn't disrespectful. In fact I'd have to really make an effort to train the maid to use my name, because by her cultural/linguistic lights, it would be impertinent, presumptious for her to do so, she'd feel more comfortable with "Nai" or "Paw".

"Farang" just happens to be one of those words used to substitute for us where we would expect to see a name.

Just to point out while 'gair' can mean old, it is also used to mean 'he/she' as an alternative to 'kow'

Your misses is not calling you 'old man' in the situation you described.

He likes = gair chawp

Old man = kon gair

In Thailand.

The rudeness comes in using a word to describe a 'thing' without a modifier to turn the 'thing' into a person.

Gair/kow/pee/nai/nong/noo/lung are all forms to address a person.

Farang/man are forms to address a 'thing' or maybe an animal.

Your maid should also not address you directly by name,

Nai Chris, pee chris, lung Chris = polite (depending on relative ages and position in society)

Chris = impolite

Fwiw- the whole 'man (it) 'thing confuses me. I asked a Thai friend about it when I heard him describe an absent (also Thai) mate as 'man'. He explained it 's not rude at all if the referee is not present. If you say it to someone's face however it 's very rude and likely to start a fight.

[David48]

Yeh ... but I consider myself an average poster here ... no better nor worse then anyone ... so when the term 'most' is employed, it does reflect on me.

Actually, to honest ... I like to associate with a broad spectrum of Thai people. Heart and soul does not come from the mind.

I value heart and soul as much as I value a sharp intellect.

But heck ... that's just me.

Carry on ... .

You live on a farm in a rural area, I'm just wondering how you expect to meet a "broad spectrum of people"

In the rural area where my lot live almost everyone left school at age 13, all I could meet there were poor ignorant illiterate farmers.

(not that I have anything against those people)

My partner parents might have a Farm but the spectrum of Thai people who I associate is not limited to that social structure.

Seriously ... do you think for a moment, that my options are limited to my immediate geographical environment?

My partner worked for an international firm for more then a decade, she's quite highly educated.

Her best friend is the HR manager for the firm.

I enjoy as much spending time with them as I do with this guy ...

... a lowly educated honorary 'brother' to the Farm Family ... heart of gold he has.

One thing my partner has taught me is that 'all thai not same' ... expand that thought bubble to ... 'your situation may not apply universally'.

AOA ... not having a go at you ... just that ... generalisations, as you have used them, tend to come back and bite you in the ass.

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[AnotherOneAmerican]

Seriously ... do you think for a moment, that my options are limited to my immediate geographical environment?

I have found that to usually be the case.

That's why I live in CM, many different types of people to mix and socialise with.

[Kitsune]

Seems to me that you are just opposing everything that people post today. Your points of view are clashing with each other across different threads.

But I guess you only come to TV to be objectionable because your life is just so empty.

I am sorry that you put off so many people and now no one wants to write on your topic

but it's not a reason to come and chase me here.

[benalibina]

Seems to me that you are just opposing everything that people post today. Your points of view are clashing with each other across different threads. But I guess you only come to TV to be objectionable because your life is just so empty.

I am sorry that you put off so many people and now no one wants to write on your topicbut it's not a reason to come and chase me here.

LOVE ?????????

[Kitsune]

Seems to me that you are just opposing everything that people post today. Your points of view are clashing with each other across different threads. But I guess you only come to TV to be objectionable because your life is just so empty.

I am sorry that you put off so many people and now no one wants to write on your topicbut it's not a reason to come and chase me here.

LOVE ?????????

Nah it's too passionate

can't last

[ABCer]

I see more similarities than differences...

The effort to be polite and show respect is unmistakable in any culture, as is its absence.

Minor idiosyncrasies aside our cultures overlap more than many of us care to recognise. The reason I get along well with many Thai's is that I follow the same good manners I was brought up with, the reason many of my Thai friends get along with me is that they also follow the same good manners they were brought up with. For this very same reason I think some Thai's and some Westerners nothing more than ill educated pigs who make no effort in being considerate of others.

Bravo! The only addition I would make is try to assign quantitative estimate here - probably the same 99% I was talking about in a similar context... National Cultural divide is minimal compared with Cultural divide inside any nation.

To put it more bluntly 1% of any Nation will get along just fine with 1% of another Nation. It is the other 99% which cannot find common grounds with their own kind, let alone with similar category of another Nation.

[maxme]

Seriously ... do you think for a moment, that my options are limited to my immediate geographical environment?

I have found that to usually be the case.

That's why I live in CM, many different types of people to mix and socialise with.

Eh, somehow it looks like you put all the uneducated into one demographic basket. Uneducated are not limited to only farms, and even if they work at farms they don't have to be uneducated.

I´ve encountered a lot of uneducated Thais in Bkk and in the southern provinces but then again I've encountered a lot of western nimwits such as certain Brits, Germans and Scandinavians who don' t know the difference between ass and elbow.

I think you have to seperate the people who have an education from those who are educated, as these are two entirely different aspects.

[JetsetBkk]

Just to point out while 'gair' can mean old, it is also used to mean 'he/she' as an alternative to 'kow'

Your misses is not calling you 'old man' in the situation you described.

He likes = gair chawp

Old man = kon gair

<snip>

"Gair" meaning "old" is low tone.

"Gair" meaning "you" is mid tone.

So I wouldn't use "gair" unless you are prepared to take the consequences of getting it wrong.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Just to point out while 'gair' can mean old, it is also used to mean 'he/she' as an alternative to 'kow'

Your misses is not calling you 'old man' in the situation you described.

He likes = gair chawp

Old man = kon gair

<snip>

"Gair" meaning "old" is low tone.

"Gair" meaning "you" is mid tone.

So I wouldn't use "gair" unless you are prepared to take the consequences of getting it wrong.

You think the poster could hear the difference?

Edited June 16, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[JetsetBkk]

Just to point out while 'gair' can mean old, it is also used to mean 'he/she' as an alternative to 'kow'

Your misses is not calling you 'old man' in the situation you described.

He likes = gair chawp

Old man = kon gair

<snip>

"Gair" meaning "old" is low tone.

"Gair" meaning "you" is mid tone.

So I wouldn't use "gair" unless you are prepared to take the consequences of getting it wrong.

You think the poster could hear the difference?

Probably not - he's been a member here for only 3 days but I've no idea how long he's been in Thailand.

[Eesat]

News flash : Farang is not just used to make sure they got the right person, it is a replacement for the words person/lady/gentleman/man/etc

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News flash - this is a common and no-disrespect-intended linguistic feature of the Thai language, they often use these "objectifying" words rather than each others' names, especially in relaxed informal contexts, you're just being overly sensitive.

Now it's quite possible the Thais around you have no respect for you, can't argue about that, but that doesn't make the term itself derogatory from a linguistic POV.

"Pee" - someone older, "Nong" someone younger

"Ouan" - the fat guy, "Geh" - the old guy (nothing disrespectful about either, except to overly sensitive farang)

"dTua lek" and "Noo" - the little one

Also relationship words - we do the same as Thais with "Granny" "Uncle" etc.

It's only disrespect if you tell them you don't like it and they continue to do so to your face, but even then more likely they just forget, old habits are hard to break.

I think that you mean "Noi" for little,"Noo" means Mouse,as in "Prik Kee Noo" or mouse-shit chillies!

[Eesat]

Your maid should also not address you directly by name,

Nai Chris, pee chris, lung Chris = polite (depending on relative ages and position in society)

Chris = impolite

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My point is that "Nai", "Pee" or "Lung" or even "Paw" by itself is not rude without the name part.

I am also specifically talking about the usage when referring to a third party, if it's obvious who's indicated and there's only one older person (fat person, farang person) in the room the name's usually dropped.

But the overall point is that the term "farang" is not in and of itself derogatory.

It can be used in a sarcastic derogatory way, like addressing someone directly using the word by itself, but I've personally only come across that in intimate situations ("ai farang" affectionately expressing frustration) or when someone is genuinely angry.

You are wrong.

Thank you ! can you elaborate ?

It's not just in Thai,most of South-East Asia is the same,old fashioned if you like.You cannot address someone with just their Christian/First name as that is too informal,in other words rude.Therefore you must add a polite participle first,which in Thai is a variation based on the age and social standing of the person you are addressing.

In the Philippines they will always call you "Sir" or "Ma'am" also,for the same reason,it is a formal address and protocol.The girls will call each other "Ate" there which means sister.Obviously the Thai version is "Pi".

You even have it in Spanish but more for the Latinos in South America,where they will address you as "Usted/Ustedes",instead of the more informal "Tu/Vosotros".

[ABCer]

Just to point out while 'gair' can mean old, it is also used to mean 'he/she' as an alternative to 'kow'

Your misses is not calling you 'old man' in the situation you described.

He likes = gair chawp

Old man = kon gair

<snip>

"Gair" meaning "old" is low tone.

"Gair" meaning "you" is mid tone.

So I wouldn't use "gair" unless you are prepared to take the consequences of getting it wrong.

I have heard of the tonal nature of Thai language. This fact plus their use of alien alphabet are the main reasons why after over 6 years in here I know maybe a dozen words. I am good with languages, but refuse to learn Thai.

IMO this fixation on tonalities precludes most English speaking Thais from noticing phonetics. Most of Thais speak English missing almost all consonants. Their articulation is extremely lazy. Not physically or genetically - just is seldom used.

My wife is very annoyed when I jokingly say that Thai language sounds like Italian spoken with a mouth opening device, the one that pushes your teeth wide open.

Having said this I would like to ask those among us on TV who are flashing their knowledge of Thai to, please, do two things:

-kindly supply translations of your 'kak, mak, puk, suk, mngo und tratata' if you use them in your posts, so that the mortal ones can also understand your academic arguments;

-kindly explain,- if the same written word can have three meanings depending on the tone, how is this reflected in the written text? or do you understand the meaning by context, like in English?

krap

[boosta]

-kindly supply translations of your 'kak, mak, puk, suk, mngo und tratata' if you use them in your posts, so that the mortal ones can also understand your academic arguments;

-kindly explain,- if the same written word can have three meanings depending on the tone, how is this reflected in the written text? or do you understand the meaning by context, like in English?

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I won't comment on your attitude to the language, just that you may want to work on it if you're staying here long-term.

I just used "bai teeo puying" in another thread because it's a simple commonly used phrase here that's difficult to convey without a full explanation in English. In this case "going out on the town, often men in a group together, for the purpose of mongering".

Similarly we will use "mia noi" and "kreng jai" because English requires a full explanation of cultural issues in order to explain their meaning.

And with the tones, these aren't "the same word" but completely different words, different spelling and different pronunciation but due to your first-language interference - in this case English's not having tones - perceived as sounding similar. For regular Thais it will not have crossed their minds that these words have anything in common, since tones are as important to meaning as the phonemes they are stored as completely distinct words.

Just like their difficulty in pronouncing certain phonemes in English comes from the fact that they don't exist in their own language and have to be learned, same level of difficulty that you find mastering tones, but no one's calling you "lazy mouth".

Edited June 16, 2013 by boosta

[boosta]

I think that you mean "Noi" for little,"Noo" means Mouse,as in "Prik Kee Noo" or mouse-shit chillies!

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No I mean mouse, used as an affectionate address-particle for a younger/lower-status person, especially children but also for example a young servant or girlfriend.

Never heard Noi used that way, just as a regular adverb/adjective as in "nit noi" and of course a common nickname, apparently given to babies smaller than usual, as "ooan" or "moo" can be given to the big ones.

Edited June 16, 2013 by boosta

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I think that you mean "Noi" for little,"Noo" means Mouse,as in "Prik Kee Noo" or mouse-shit chillies!

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No I mean mouse, used as an affectionate address-particle for a younger/lower-status person, especially children but also for example a young servant or girlfriend.

Never heard Noi used that way, just as a regular adverb/adjective as in "nit noi" and of course a common nickname, apparently given to babies smaller than usual, as "ooan" or "moo" can be given to the big ones.

Noo, only used for/by girls. Alternative to 'chan'

I once asked a girl (aged 27) how long she would keep calling herself 'noo', she said probably forever.

[boosta]

This guy may seem effeminate to some but to TGs he's all man!

Interesting how there's a distinction between "personal nickname" and the same word used as a personal pronoun.

I guess wrt "farang" the latter usage in the third person is the normal (not impolite) one, not using it to address the honkey directly (second person).

[mr3cho]

I can think of some habits that are very easily noticed,table manners are a prime example.

I was raised to not speak with your mouth full of food and not make any strange noises while eating,slurping and chewing with open mouth is not frowned upon over here i notice.

You need to observe more closely. The person making slurping, lip-smacking noises and chewing with their mouth open is Chinese. Supposedly to show they're enjoying it. Same here, this disgusts me so much. Thais don't do this nor do they like this, however while many Thais are annoyed by it, they won't say something to the person. Actually Thai culture has quite a list of table manners.

Edited June 17, 2013 by mr3cho

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't really agree that cultural differences are just 'different' and have to be accepted with no value judgements attached, by definition.

Some differences are of course harmless and part of the richly diverse pattern of human behaviour, but others are not, and I think it's perfectly OK to comment on, and try to change them.

For example, the hawking up and spitting you mention is not neutral, as many pathogens can be, and are, spread this way: respiratory diseases like SARS, flu, and in the third world especially, tuberculosis, including antibiotic resistant kinds.

I would also say that the Asian habit of removing shoes before entering a place where people live is hugely superior to the Western habit of leaving them on. Think of all the dog, rat and cat poo and TB-infested spittle that you avoid tracking into your house if you just take your shoes off!

I suppose, if you never wash your floor or vacuum your carpets,then again, that is why most westerners wear socks.

How about the foot fungus that is spread when people walk around barefoot together? When I first moved to Thailand I caught one so bad it caused a serious infection

[partington]

Fair point. On the whole though I think shoes get much dirtier than the feet in them, so would still prefer the removal option for indoors.

[boosta]

I agree taking shoes off is more civilized, comfortable and sanitary, but back home people think it's rude to ask them to do so. . .

Can't believe the idea anymore of actually wearing outside shoes into the bathroom, actually having a rug on the floor of a bathroom.

[ABCer]

Some people would benefit from taking pride in their own 'culture' irrespectively of their location.

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What you're talking about, art and "high culture" is a completely different topic.

However your assertion of superiority of the west is a great example of the root cause of so much unhappiness, not just to many without-a-clue expats here.

I would be much more proud of my society's culture if its leaders actually tried to live up to its values. I know I can have a much greater impact on my own society than trying to impose my foreign values on Thailand, so that's where I would start if I wanted to be an activist.

Boosta, I do not know high culture or low culture.

As I said there are thousands of other things - music, technology, science, etc. They all add up to one result - Culture. One can see it, touch it, hear it, etc.

I never tried to ascertain or even imply superiority of West Culture over East Culture. I am aware that more 'wanders of the world can be found in the East'... I just get annoyed by some people trying to prove to me my inadequacy here because of the culture divide. In these cases I stop them and say:

"What culture? Show to me some culture that I can see, touch, hear, etc." That shuts them up, or they start telling me not to use my feet for pointing . I never did this in the West!!!

Let us leave politics and politicians out of our discussions. No politician is a good person. No good person would go into politics.

God forbid me or anybody to try and impose my cultural values onto locals. It is futile. And it would be a disaster - we would have to go elsewhere... Can't you see that it is just the opposite that I'm protesting against?

I do not think we have very different positions. But one personal favour I am asking about.

Call me anything, except an activist. It has nothing to do with me. And it brings out some personal bloody memories.