'White Mask' Guards Seen Trying To Hit Redshirts With Iron Bars

[fasteddie]

They lose an election, they start a war.

They lose all the elections, big time.

eg Don Muang?

You're playing unfair Yoshiwara - you're using facts not propaganda or urban myth. Now you know that's not how the government supporters play.

Oh dear, Oh dear, grasping at straws, you know we're talking general elections, well at least we grown ups are.

[rubl]

So we've heard from our photo journalist who seems to mostly walk around in red-shirt midst to show how objective he is in his judgments. That's nice. Then we have someone suggesting PAD = Siam Pitak = white masks, therefore suspect. Following we have someone chasing the opinion that innocent red-shirts trying to drive passed were harassed.

None of this matters a single iota! When the white shirts started to protest at Ratchaprasong with hardly two dozen persons the immediate reaction was condemnation. Pheu Thai, government speaking out that such protest was undemocratic, no longer needed and an insult to Thaksin. Following we had peaceful red-shirts protesting very close to the white masks. Obviously those red-shirts were provoked. I mean PM Yingluck herslef had said 'democracy finally regained after nearly a decade'.

So, back to topic. It has been reported that some white shirt guards may have grapped some tools to be on the watch for innocent red-shirts who might try to drive past on motorcy's. Pictures of all this 'whitemask' violence to follow. In the mean time one may have a look at the justly rage of provoked red-shirts in CM and other cities.

Democracy, Pheu Thai led government style. Allegedly or should that be transparently?

Nice distortion, as usual...

if you may have noticed - over the past two years i have done far more stories on assorted yellow shirt events than on Red Shirts. My latest story was on both sides with far more images on (and time spent with) yellow shirts.

Past Sunday i have spent exactly one hour with the Red Shirts, and 5 hours with the Yellow Shirts - first during the white mask march, and the remainder at Sanam Luang.

Thanks for *again* using this discussion to personally attack me.

Nick, you're somewhat thin skinned. Also in my opinion your reports tend to show compassion for red-shirts, non-emotion at what they do wrong and condemnation at the yellow shirts and the like. Your posts here and at NewM show that.

The white shirts are PAD / yellow shirts therefore wrong, at fault or as Dr. weng said all democrats to be eradicated. If you can stress that there are many real, normal red-shirts why do you refuse to believe in real, normal anti-corruption and anti-Thaksin people?

The white shirts consist of many groups including former PAD, so what? The red-shirts consist of UDD and many other groups.

The topic is 'white shirt guards seen trying to hit redshirts'. No photo's of that. Some remarks on 'call that red-shirts on motorcy were approaching'. Red-shirt protesters at the opposirte side of the road. 'Remember the Alamo' which in CM wasn't too bad. So, any photo or video evidence of 'white shirt guards ' getting out their grenade launchers baseball bats?

Edited June 17, 2013 by rubl

[oceanview]

And the red shirts are .... where?

Surely with the "Khaosod correspondent" would have got photos of the white shirts attacking the red shirts with the advance notice he got over the radio. He also wasn't able to get photos of the police intervening.

I think Khaosod need a new correspondent. Maybe Nick could get out there and get some photos of white masks attacking the red shirts.

Indeed, it'd be nice to see Khaosod's or his photos of the white masks in Khon Kaen, Chiang Mai, Korat, Buriram, Songkhla, and Nakhon Si Thammarat as clearly the movement is widespread well beyond Bangkok.

Go to V for Thailand Facebook page. They are all on there.

Thanks for the tip. Really shows a widespread movement beyond what others are deceptively trying to narrowly pigeon-hole them into.

Clearly this goes well beyond PAD and yellow shirts from days long ago.

.

Edited June 17, 2013 by oceanview

[15Peter20]

Red shirts attack peaceful whitemasks - this violence is deplorable.

Whitemasks attack peaceful redshirts - this violence is understandable.

hhmm...I think I'm getting the hang of moral supremacy 101 a la TV now.

Well now try to grasp some advanced concepts like "quantity" and "intensity".

Okay, I'll give it a go.

Violent red shirts pictured yesterday - 6-ish?

Violent whitemasks pictured today - 2-3?

Verdict - red shirts are worse.

Red shirt intensity pictured yesterday - very angry with sticks, fists and boots

Whitemasks intensity pictured today - calm with metal rods

Verdict - whitemasks are worse due to deadlier weapons, although possibly a tie since the reds looked so angry

Feel free to pass judgement if you wish.

That's great Peter, you will soon pass kindergarten at this rate. In first class you will learn that history extends beyond 2 days.

And how long will it take me before I can condone - as you do - the use of violence against peaceful demonstrators, as reported in the OP? Not sure I want to graduate from your school of thought...

[nicknostitz]

So we've heard from our photo journalist who seems to mostly walk around in red-shirt midst to show how objective he is in his judgments. That's nice. Then we have someone suggesting PAD = Siam Pitak = white masks, therefore suspect. Following we have someone chasing the opinion that innocent red-shirts trying to drive passed were harassed.

None of this matters a single iota! When the white shirts started to protest at Ratchaprasong with hardly two dozen persons the immediate reaction was condemnation. Pheu Thai, government speaking out that such protest was undemocratic, no longer needed and an insult to Thaksin. Following we had peaceful red-shirts protesting very close to the white masks. Obviously those red-shirts were provoked. I mean PM Yingluck herslef had said 'democracy finally regained after nearly a decade'.

So, back to topic. It has been reported that some white shirt guards may have grapped some tools to be on the watch for innocent red-shirts who might try to drive past on motorcy's. Pictures of all this 'whitemask' violence to follow. In the mean time one may have a look at the justly rage of provoked red-shirts in CM and other cities.

Democracy, Pheu Thai led government style. Allegedly or should that be transparently?

Nice distortion, as usual...

if you may have noticed - over the past two years i have done far more stories on assorted yellow shirt events than on Red Shirts. My latest story was on both sides with far more images on (and time spent with) yellow shirts.

Past Sunday i have spent exactly one hour with the Red Shirts, and 5 hours with the Yellow Shirts - first during the white mask march, and the remainder at Sanam Luang.

Thanks for *again* using this discussion to personally attack me.

Fair play Nick - you have the balls to go out their and do your job. Concentrating on taking photographs regardless of the potential dangers from any side. That earns you respect and reiterating your experiences and conversations is useful in helping contextualise what looks to be a worsening situation. Regardless of who they support or don't support and whatever their views, I hope people would not personally attack you or anyone else who puts their life on the line for their profession. Mind your back and keep your eyes open!

Thank you very much

I try not to put my life on the line though - i believe that being killed as a journalist equates to having failed in our profession, which is to communicate and to continue to do so. For me, at least, it's not about the adrenaline, but in making in a potentially hairy situation the right decision which should always be safety. That's why i rarely team up with colleagues, if i can avoid it, and prefer to work alone, not to be drawn into the adrenaline filled picture taking rush that so often happens in bad situations (and often gets photographers killed).

I got a family to come back home to.

But yes, it is a worsening situation, which i watch with concern. I would prefer it that this conflict would be taken out at the ballot box, and not on the street, and that the government opponents demonstrate on issues instead with the aim of overthrowing the elected government by any other means than via elections.

Don Muang has shown that they can win, fair and square, if they do decide to make the effort.

[nicknostitz]

So we've heard from our photo journalist who seems to mostly walk around in red-shirt midst to show how objective he is in his judgments. That's nice. Then we have someone suggesting PAD = Siam Pitak = white masks, therefore suspect. Following we have someone chasing the opinion that innocent red-shirts trying to drive passed were harassed.

None of this matters a single iota! When the white shirts started to protest at Ratchaprasong with hardly two dozen persons the immediate reaction was condemnation. Pheu Thai, government speaking out that such protest was undemocratic, no longer needed and an insult to Thaksin. Following we had peaceful red-shirts protesting very close to the white masks. Obviously those red-shirts were provoked. I mean PM Yingluck herslef had said 'democracy finally regained after nearly a decade'.

So, back to topic. It has been reported that some white shirt guards may have grapped some tools to be on the watch for innocent red-shirts who might try to drive past on motorcy's. Pictures of all this 'whitemask' violence to follow. In the mean time one may have a look at the justly rage of provoked red-shirts in CM and other cities.

Democracy, Pheu Thai led government style. Allegedly or should that be transparently?

Nice distortion, as usual...

if you may have noticed - over the past two years i have done far more stories on assorted yellow shirt events than on Red Shirts. My latest story was on both sides with far more images on (and time spent with) yellow shirts.

Past Sunday i have spent exactly one hour with the Red Shirts, and 5 hours with the Yellow Shirts - first during the white mask march, and the remainder at Sanam Luang.

Thanks for *again* using this discussion to personally attack me.

Nick, you're somewhat thin skinned. Also in my opinion your reports tend to show compassion for red-shirts, non-emotion at what they do wrong and condemnation at the yellow shirts and the like. Your posts here and at NewM show that.

The white shirts are PAD / yellow shirts therefore wrong, at fault or as Dr. weng said all democrats to be eradicated. If you can stress that there are many real, normal red-shirts why do you refuse to believe in real, normal anti-corruption and anti-Thaksin people?

The white shirts consist of many groups including former PAD, so what? The red-shirts consist of UDD and many other groups.

The topic is 'white shirt guards seen trying to hit redshirts'. No photo's of that. Some remarks on 'call that red-shirts on motorcy were approaching'. Red-shirt protesters at the opposirte side of the road. 'Remember the Alamo' which in CM wasn't too bad. So, any photo or video evidence of 'white shirt guards ' getting out their grenade launchers baseball bats?

It's a question of being serial discredited by you, and not of being thin skinned. How would you possibly know where and how i spend my time? How do you dare to judge my actions?

Khaosod is a well known newspaper with excellent journalists working there, which over the past years has displayed far better journalism than the two English language papers.

Which you also try to discredit now by nitpicking on an internet forum. The article in questions shows images of pink shirted guards running with clubs in a situation typical for this sort of quick improvised violence. A yellow shirt guard later on at Sanam Luang told me of an incident, after trying to suss out if i had any images of that incident.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that these people have the same potential for violence as the Red Shirts have? They are as Thai as the Red Shirts - even many Thai families are split between Red and Yellow, one part Red, the other Yellow.

I have photos of Red Shirts inflicting violence, and i have photos of Yellow Shirts (or multicolored or whatever other incarnation of the same group) inflicting violence. I don't support either, and different than you just moaning and distorting issues on the internet, i actually try to stop violence, when i have a chance to do that without endangering myself too much. On numerous occasions i have taken my camera down, and tried to prevent people from inflicting violence - on both sides.

I am somewhat sure that i will get another sarcy comment from you, and quite soon will get out of the discussion. As usual.

[waza]

Been wondering about that myself.

Click the original op.

They are wearing pink shirts mind.

And the red shirts are .... where?

Surely with the "Khaosod correspondent" would have got photos of the white shirts attacking the red shirts with the advance notice he got over the radio. He also wasn't able to get photos of the police intervening.

I think Khaosod need a new correspondent. Maybe Nick could get out there and get some photos of white masks attacking the red shirts.

Very funny

I was at that moment at the Rajaprasong corner taking pics of the Red Shirts, and walked then across the street to take pics of the white mask guys just opposite, and have completely missed that incident, and was only told about it in the evening when a yellow shirt guard at Sanam Luang wanted to have a look the pictures i have taken that day in order to find out if i have taken pics of that particular incident. Which i haven't, and he sort of reluctantly told me that there was a brief incident, without going into details. I only found out the details from Khao Sot.

Sometimes you just miss stuff, that just happens. These sort of small incidents are so quick that when you are not just right there when it happens you will not have a chance to take pics as they are over so fast. Over the years i have missed many such incidents of quick violence, and was present at many others, and some i was even able to take good pics of. And then there were some when it was simply not safe enough to take pictures as i would have been targeted. Which, without trying to sound "Red", was and is a worse problem with Yellow Shirt guards. For Thai photographers it's far more dangerous, they are equally targeted by both sides, while foreign Photographers have rarely been targeted by Red Shirts.

Both sides have done stuff like that small incident, which is quite common and rarely gets reported, and without doubt there will be more, and unfortunately worse, most likely.

Or it was a fit up.......

In Bangkok, the demonstrators shouted "Thaksin's lackeys, get out!" when they walked past the police headquarters. About 50 red shirts gathered at the nearby Gaysorn department centre, but there were no reports of clashes between the two groups.....l...

"The government has not taken any action over the clash of protesters as it wants such reports to divert public attention or overshadow reports of rice pledging losses. The government's failure in its major policies and its failed administration could trigger a repeat of 'dark power' taking control of the country as happened in 2006," he said.

Edited June 17, 2013 by waza

[rubl]

So we've heard from our photo journalist who seems to mostly walk around in red-shirt midst to show how objective he is in his judgments. That's nice. Then we have someone suggesting PAD = Siam Pitak = white masks, therefore suspect. Following we have someone chasing the opinion that innocent red-shirts trying to drive passed were harassed.

None of this matters a single iota! When the white shirts started to protest at Ratchaprasong with hardly two dozen persons the immediate reaction was condemnation. Pheu Thai, government speaking out that such protest was undemocratic, no longer needed and an insult to Thaksin. Following we had peaceful red-shirts protesting very close to the white masks. Obviously those red-shirts were provoked. I mean PM Yingluck herslef had said 'democracy finally regained after nearly a decade'.

So, back to topic. It has been reported that some white shirt guards may have grapped some tools to be on the watch for innocent red-shirts who might try to drive past on motorcy's. Pictures of all this 'whitemask' violence to follow. In the mean time one may have a look at the justly rage of provoked red-shirts in CM and other cities.

Democracy, Pheu Thai led government style. Allegedly or should that be transparently?

Nice distortion, as usual...

if you may have noticed - over the past two years i have done far more stories on assorted yellow shirt events than on Red Shirts. My latest story was on both sides with far more images on (and time spent with) yellow shirts.

Past Sunday i have spent exactly one hour with the Red Shirts, and 5 hours with the Yellow Shirts - first during the white mask march, and the remainder at Sanam Luang.

Thanks for *again* using this discussion to personally attack me.

Nick, you're somewhat thin skinned. Also in my opinion your reports tend to show compassion for red-shirts, non-emotion at what they do wrong and condemnation at the yellow shirts and the like. Your posts here and at NewM show that.

The white shirts are PAD / yellow shirts therefore wrong, at fault or as Dr. weng said all democrats to be eradicated. If you can stress that there are many real, normal red-shirts why do you refuse to believe in real, normal anti-corruption and anti-Thaksin people?

The white shirts consist of many groups including former PAD, so what? The red-shirts consist of UDD and many other groups.

The topic is 'white shirt guards seen trying to hit redshirts'. No photo's of that. Some remarks on 'call that red-shirts on motorcy were approaching'. Red-shirt protesters at the opposirte side of the road. 'Remember the Alamo' which in CM wasn't too bad. So, any photo or video evidence of 'white shirt guards ' getting out their grenade launchers baseball bats?

It's a question of being serial discredited by you, and not of being thin skinned. How would you possibly know where and how i spend my time? How do you dare to judge my actions?

Khaosod is a well known newspaper with excellent journalists working there, which over the past years has displayed far better journalism than the two English language papers.

Which you also try to discredit now by nitpicking on an internet forum. The article in questions shows images of pink shirted guards running with clubs in a situation typical for this sort of quick improvised violence. A yellow shirt guard later on at Sanam Luang told me of an incident, after trying to suss out if i had any images of that incident.

Why is it so difficult for you to accept that these people have the same potential for violence as the Red Shirts have? They are as Thai as the Red Shirts - even many Thai families are split between Red and Yellow, one part Red, the other Yellow.

I have photos of Red Shirts inflicting violence, and i have photos of Yellow Shirts (or multicolored or whatever other incarnation of the same group) inflicting violence. I don't support either, and different than you just moaning and distorting issues on the internet, i actually try to stop violence, when i have a chance to do that without endangering myself too much. On numerous occasions i have taken my camera down, and tried to prevent people from inflicting violence - on both sides.

I am somewhat sure that i will get another sarcy comment from you, and quite soon will get out of the discussion. As usual.

Discredited? Sarcy comment? Sorry Nick, but as I said 'thin skinned'.

I wrote I haven't seen any photo or video evidence on 'white mask guards on the assault'. That's a simple fact. You were there you said, but you don't seem to have any info to shed light on this. Still you accuse me of nitpicking?

I respect you for joining these protests, even the yellow shirt ones. I haven't joined red-shirt protests, not even yellow shirt protest. Mind you the moment the normal red-shirts publicly drop the UDD leaders and Thaksin I will get myself a red shirt and stand amongst the grassroot red-shirts who really have a valid grievance.

So, to get back on topic, apart from the three photo's on the KhaoSod page (link in the OP), did anyone see any photo's, video or other explanation for what was reported as

"Nonetheless, tension flared up around 14.00 when a member of the guards team of the anti-government activists received message from his radio that 3 Redshirts on 2 motorcycles were headed from Ratchaprasong toward Pratunam.

On hearing the report, he and other guards produced iron bars and wooden bats from their bags, and ran toward the oncoming Redshirts motorcyclists. They managed to hit the motorcyclists a few times before the police rushed in to hold back the guards and make way for the Redshirts to escape into an alley next to Big C department store. No injury has been reported."

PS to avoid double standards may I quote from the CM topic "if no injuries it can't be serious"?

Edited June 17, 2013 by rubl

[nicknostitz]

Discredited? Scary comment? Sorry Nick, but as I said 'thin skinned'.

I wrote I haven't seen any photo or video evidence on 'white mask guards on the assault'. That's a simple fact. You were there you said, but you don't seem to have any info to shed light on this. Still you accuse me of nitpicking?

I respect you for joining these protests, even the yellow shirt ones. I haven't joined red-shirt protests, not even yellow shirt protest. Mind you the moment the normal red-shirts publicly drop the UDD leaders and Thaksin I will get myself a red shirt and stand amongst the grassroot red-shirts who really have a valid grievance.

So, to get back on topic, apart from the three photo's on the KhaoSod page (link in the OP), did anyone see any photo's, video or other explanation for what was reported as

"Nonetheless, tension flared up around 14.00 when a member of the guards team of the anti-government activists received message from his radio that 3 Redshirts on 2 motorcycles were headed from Ratchaprasong toward Pratunam.

On hearing the report, he and other guards produced iron bars and wooden bats from their bags, and ran toward the oncoming Redshirts motorcyclists. They managed to hit the motorcyclists a few times before the police rushed in to hold back the guards and make way for the Redshirts to escape into an alley next to Big C department store. No injury has been reported."

PS to avoid double standards may I quote from the CM topic "if no injuries it can't be serious"?

Well, i do not "join" protests. I take photos, research, talk and whatever else is necessary to understand and communicate. I do not think it is appropriate for me as a foreigner to join a conflict that is over highly complex internal Thai socio-political issues.

As to your comment about Red Shirt leaders - what would you know about these leaders other than the more than thin news and the propaganda spewed here on Thaivisa? Have you ever talked with any of these UDD leaders to be able to give such a judgement over all of them? I guess not.

Have you spoken with any of the Yellow Shirt leaders? Just go down to Sanam Luang, and have a look. On Sunday, for example, Chaiwat Sinsuwong in an interview with CTV (the Chinese TV News organization) claimed that 10 000 protesters camp out every day at Sanam Luang. Have a look there and see for yourself how many people there are. Ask the leaders there how many people they try to make you believe camp out there presently. And have a chat with the different protesters that camp out there.

Have you ever tried to find out the position of non-UDD free Red Shirt groups - such as the 24th of June group, Red Sunday, Ajarn Wan's and Ajarn Dum's group, Nong Kate's mother's group, etc - and looked at their political views and positions? I only see you moaning about Thaksin, the UDD, yet i see not even the beginning of analyses or any differentiated look at neither the situation nor the different groups. You attack Red, and you uncritically follow whatever yellow propaganda is presently played out. Such as refusing to acknowledge that the white masks are to the most known Yellow Shirts trying to give the appearance of a new group that does not carry the negative baggage of the PAD.

Just because you have not spent any time to get to know the different protest groups, and the individuals involved does not mean that others - such as me, many of my journalist colleagues (especially Thai journalists), police officers, intelligence officers, etc - have not done so, and unanimously come to the same conclusion: the white mask groups is the latest incarnation of one part of the yellow shirts, as the key people - be that the most active protesters, the guards, and the leadership - are well known Yellow Shirts who have been active in the PAD and all later Yellow Shirt incarnations.

This white mask thing is a rather well done media stunt, part of an overall strategy, which so far seems to go better than the past 3 attempts to build momentum since the 2011 election. Well, as long as they manage to increase the numbers beyond what Pitak Siam managed.

But in the end it is still the same old game.

[waza]

Discredited? Scary comment? Sorry Nick, but as I said 'thin skinned'.

I wrote I haven't seen any photo or video evidence on 'white mask guards on the assault'. That's a simple fact. You were there you said, but you don't seem to have any info to shed light on this. Still you accuse me of nitpicking?

I respect you for joining these protests, even the yellow shirt ones. I haven't joined red-shirt protests, not even yellow shirt protest. Mind you the moment the normal red-shirts publicly drop the UDD leaders and Thaksin I will get myself a red shirt and stand amongst the grassroot red-shirts who really have a valid grievance.

So, to get back on topic, apart from the three photo's on the KhaoSod page (link in the OP), did anyone see any photo's, video or other explanation for what was reported as

"Nonetheless, tension flared up around 14.00 when a member of the guards team of the anti-government activists received message from his radio that 3 Redshirts on 2 motorcycles were headed from Ratchaprasong toward Pratunam.

On hearing the report, he and other guards produced iron bars and wooden bats from their bags, and ran toward the oncoming Redshirts motorcyclists. They managed to hit the motorcyclists a few times before the police rushed in to hold back the guards and make way for the Redshirts to escape into an alley next to Big C department store. No injury has been reported."

PS to avoid double standards may I quote from the CM topic "if no injuries it can't be serious"?

Well, i do not "join" protests. I take photos, research, talk and whatever else is necessary to understand and communicate. I do not think it is appropriate for me as a foreigner to join a conflict that is over highly complex internal Thai socio-political issues.

As to your comment about Red Shirt leaders - what would you know about these leaders other than the more than thin news and the propaganda spewed here on Thaivisa? Have you ever talked with any of these UDD leaders to be able to give such a judgement over all of them? I guess not.

Have you spoken with any of the Yellow Shirt leaders? Just go down to Sanam Luang, and have a look. On Sunday, for example, Chaiwat Sinsuwong in an interview with CTV (the Chinese TV News organization) claimed that 10 000 protesters camp out every day at Sanam Luang. Have a look there and see for yourself how many people there are. Ask the leaders there how many people they try to make you believe camp out there presently. And have a chat with the different protesters that camp out there.

Have you ever tried to find out the position of non-UDD free Red Shirt groups - such as the 24th of June group, Red Sunday, Ajarn Wan's and Ajarn Dum's group, Nong Kate's mother's group, etc - and looked at their political views and positions? I only see you moaning about Thaksin, the UDD, yet i see not even the beginning of analyses or any differentiated look at neither the situation nor the different groups. You attack Red, and you uncritically follow whatever yellow propaganda is presently played out. Such as refusing to acknowledge that the white masks are to the most known Yellow Shirts trying to give the appearance of a new group that does not carry the negative baggage of the PAD.

Just because you have not spent any time to get to know the different protest groups, and the individuals involved does not mean that others - such as me, many of my journalist colleagues (especially Thai journalists), police officers, intelligence officers, etc - have not done so, and unanimously come to the same conclusion: the white mask groups is the latest incarnation of one part of the yellow shirts, as the key people - be that the most active protesters, the guards, and the leadership - are well known Yellow Shirts who have been active in the PAD and all later Yellow Shirt incarnations.

This white mask thing is a rather well done media stunt, part of an overall strategy, which so far seems to go better than the past 3 attempts to build momentum since the 2011 election. Well, as long as they manage to increase the numbers beyond what Pitak Siam managed.

But in the end it is still the same old game.

Be careful Nick your objectivity isn't showing. Well thanks for that long winded, name dropping exercise in spin and misdirection. We get it, yellow universe bad, red universe good.

Now can we get back on topic?

"Reacting to an assault by pro-government red shirts on anti-government white mask protesters in Chiang Mai last week, government critics called on Yingluck to show her stance against their behaviour. None of the government spokesmen has said anything."

Edited June 18, 2013 by waza

[Noistar]

Discredited? Scary comment? Sorry Nick, but as I said 'thin skinned'.

I wrote I haven't seen any photo or video evidence on 'white mask guards on the assault'. That's a simple fact. You were there you said, but you don't seem to have any info to shed light on this. Still you accuse me of nitpicking?

I respect you for joining these protests, even the yellow shirt ones. I haven't joined red-shirt protests, not even yellow shirt protest. Mind you the moment the normal red-shirts publicly drop the UDD leaders and Thaksin I will get myself a red shirt and stand amongst the grassroot red-shirts who really have a valid grievance.

So, to get back on topic, apart from the three photo's on the KhaoSod page (link in the OP), did anyone see any photo's, video or other explanation for what was reported as

"Nonetheless, tension flared up around 14.00 when a member of the guards team of the anti-government activists received message from his radio that 3 Redshirts on 2 motorcycles were headed from Ratchaprasong toward Pratunam.

On hearing the report, he and other guards produced iron bars and wooden bats from their bags, and ran toward the oncoming Redshirts motorcyclists. They managed to hit the motorcyclists a few times before the police rushed in to hold back the guards and make way for the Redshirts to escape into an alley next to Big C department store. No injury has been reported."

PS to avoid double standards may I quote from the CM topic "if no injuries it can't be serious"?

Well, i do not "join" protests. I take photos, research, talk and whatever else is necessary to understand and communicate. I do not think it is appropriate for me as a foreigner to join a conflict that is over highly complex internal Thai socio-political issues.

As to your comment about Red Shirt leaders - what would you know about these leaders other than the more than thin news and the propaganda spewed here on Thaivisa? Have you ever talked with any of these UDD leaders to be able to give such a judgement over all of them? I guess not.

Have you spoken with any of the Yellow Shirt leaders? Just go down to Sanam Luang, and have a look. On Sunday, for example, Chaiwat Sinsuwong in an interview with CTV (the Chinese TV News organization) claimed that 10 000 protesters camp out every day at Sanam Luang. Have a look there and see for yourself how many people there are. Ask the leaders there how many people they try to make you believe camp out there presently. And have a chat with the different protesters that camp out there.

Have you ever tried to find out the position of non-UDD free Red Shirt groups - such as the 24th of June group, Red Sunday, Ajarn Wan's and Ajarn Dum's group, Nong Kate's mother's group, etc - and looked at their political views and positions? I only see you moaning about Thaksin, the UDD, yet i see not even the beginning of analyses or any differentiated look at neither the situation nor the different groups. You attack Red, and you uncritically follow whatever yellow propaganda is presently played out. Such as refusing to acknowledge that the white masks are to the most known Yellow Shirts trying to give the appearance of a new group that does not carry the negative baggage of the PAD.

Just because you have not spent any time to get to know the different protest groups, and the individuals involved does not mean that others - such as me, many of my journalist colleagues (especially Thai journalists), police officers, intelligence officers, etc - have not done so, and unanimously come to the same conclusion: the white mask groups is the latest incarnation of one part of the yellow shirts, as the key people - be that the most active protesters, the guards, and the leadership - are well known Yellow Shirts who have been active in the PAD and all later Yellow Shirt incarnations.

This white mask thing is a rather well done media stunt, part of an overall strategy, which so far seems to go better than the past 3 attempts to build momentum since the 2011 election. Well, as long as they manage to increase the numbers beyond what Pitak Siam managed.

But in the end it is still the same old game.

Be careful Nick your objectivity isn't showing. Well thanks for that long winded, name dropping exercise in spin and misdirection. We get it, yellow universe bad, red universe good.

Now can we get back on topic?

I'd probably be knifed if I dare ask a question, probably held by a policeman so I'd be a stationary target.

What's the topic ?

[OzMick]

Well now try to grasp some advanced concepts like "quantity" and "intensity".

Okay, I'll give it a go.

Violent red shirts pictured yesterday - 6-ish?

Violent whitemasks pictured today - 2-3?

Verdict - red shirts are worse.

Red shirt intensity pictured yesterday - very angry with sticks, fists and boots

Whitemasks intensity pictured today - calm with metal rods

Verdict - whitemasks are worse due to deadlier weapons, although possibly a tie since the reds looked so angry

Feel free to pass judgement if you wish.

That's great Peter, you will soon pass kindergarten at this rate. In first class you will learn that history extends beyond 2 days.

And how long will it take me before I can condone - as you do - the use of violence against peaceful demonstrators, as reported in the OP? Not sure I want to graduate from your school of thought...

I have never condoned the use of violence against PEACEFUL demonstrators. But while you want to criticise a single alleged incident of one group while ignoring the long history of the other, you are unlikely to pass the entrance test, let alone graduate. But you never wanted to, anyway.

[GeorgeO]

Action is reaction comes to mind and it seems that we are in for a rocky ride in Thailand. A Red versus the rest conflict could easily escalate.

Well it was surely the red shirt thugs who set the standard, as we saw in a recent rally, so now they can get ready to reap what they have sown.

As these guys seem quite intent on 'payback', perhaps the yellow line will start to appear down the backs of the red shirt thugs who have had it their own way for far too long. Hopefully this growing group of 'white masks' can 'persuade' them to go back to their home ground so that Bangkokians can get on with their lives without having to put up with their endless rallies...!

Since the police, and the government, appear to be totally incapable of taking action in these matters, particularly when the aggressors are wearing red shirts, well, good luck to these guys...!

Edited June 18, 2013 by GeorgeO

[yoshiwara]

They lose an election, they start a war.

They lose all the elections, big time.

eg Don Muang?

You're playing unfair Yoshiwara - you're using facts not propaganda or urban myth. Now you know that's not how the government supporters play.

Actually the point can be made that in the Don Muang election it was the DP candidate who won. I am not aware that a Yellow candidate was running. What we do know is that the Yellows called for a boycott of the last election and urged supporters not to vote for the DP. Edited June 18, 2013 by yoshiwara

[Thai at Heart]

They lose an election, they start a war.

They lose all the elections, big time.

eg Don Muang?

You're playing unfair Yoshiwara - you're using facts not propaganda or urban myth. Now you know that's not how the government supporters play.

Actually the point can be made that in the Don Muang election it was the DP candidate who won. I am not aware that a Yellow candidate was running. What we do know is that the Yellows called for a boycott of the last election and urged supporters not to vote for the DP.

And wasn't that one of the more bizarre political plays in recent times.

[lostmebike]

The plot thickens!

How does the idiom go? 'Six of one, half a dozen of the other'

They really are all as bad as each other. Reds, yellows, pinks, stripes, polka dots.....

[bharr]

I've just arrived in Thailand a few months ago and interested in how things run here. Can someone point me to a fairly neutral overview of Thai politics, especially red and yellow shirts.

Cheers

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[lostmebike]

I've just arrived in Thailand a few months ago and interested in how things run here. Can someone point me to a fairly neutral overview of Thai politics, especially red and yellow shirts.

Cheers

Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Hi bharr, welcome to the Land Of Smiles!

Neutral, overview of politics here in Thailand, read my earlier post,

'They really are all as bad as each other. Reds, yellows, pinks, stripes, polka dots....'

[Robby nz]

So the reds are still trying to keep this nothing thing alive,

3 reds on 2 bikes were chased off before they could cause any disruptions, so what?

After 7 pages of crap why are you fellas still feeding them?

Just leave them alone and they will soon get sick of posting to each other.

[rixalex]

I try not to put my life on the line though - i believe that being killed as a journalist equates to having failed in our profession, which is to communicate and to continue to do so.

Has your profession changed in the last few years Nick? I understood from a discussion we had a while back, that you were a photographer, and that although you do write articles, you have never studied journalism.

As for supporting neither side, again from prior discussions, i recall you explaining how your sympathies lie much more firmly with the red side. This comes across quite plainly to anyone who reads what you write. I guess a distinction can be made between sympathizing and supporting, but personally for me, the difference isn't always all that great.

[nicknostitz]

I try not to put my life on the line though - i believe that being killed as a journalist equates to having failed in our profession, which is to communicate and to continue to do so.

Has your profession changed in the last few years Nick? I understood from a discussion we had a while back, that you were a photographer, and that although you do write articles, you have never studied journalism.

As for supporting neither side, again from prior discussions, i recall you explaining how your sympathies lie much more firmly with the red side. This comes across quite plainly to anyone who reads what you write. I guess a distinction can be made between sympathizing and supporting, but personally for me, the difference isn't always all that great.

Yes, my profession has changed since i decided to start writing about politics in mid 2008. While before i have written occasional articles, and was foremost a photographer, i am now both - a writer and photographer. But this is anyhow nowadays a somewhat fluid thing. Most writers nowadays take their own photos, and most photo journalists have to be able to write as well. Many magazines and newspapers nowadays simply expect us to be able to do both.

While it is without doubt helpful to have studied photography or journalism, in this line it is not essential. Nobody asks what, where or if you studied, but they look at your portfolio and your reputation, unless you aspire to become an editor, or look for a salaried job. There are many others who have studied other subjects and came into journalism from the side, or like me, who never studied. I have been in this profession since the mid 90's and worked with countless writers on many subjects, and learned in every assignment.

But i am seeing myself a bit on the way out of this profession anyhow. Journalism is in its biggest crisis ever, and i don't think it will recuperate. Budgets get ever smaller, and there is less and less publications, and the business is getting taken over by the large wire services. More and more journalists leave the profession, and very few free lancers can still live from the job. At the same time the risk is getting higher and higher. While on the one hand magazines and newspapers pretend that they protect us, in reality the images they buy are harder and harder. If a photographer still wants to be able to sell images, the risk to take becomes simply insane.

Or, editors expect you to do stuff which i find simply unethical. For example, a few months ago i had a job to do pictures accompanying a story on a home for Alzheimer patients and my client asked me why i did not take more pictures from inside the patients' rooms, and i had to tell them that these people are still humans and i have to respect their privacy, and that i only took images of patients rooms where i could make sure that it was OK with them, which was not so easy due to their condition.

But editors are under the same enormous pressure as well, so i can't really blame them.

I don't think i want to and can do what i would have to in order to continue in this profession. I would not like myself anymore.

Anyhow...

I think i was a bit unclear. I meant to say that i do not support violence of either side, i have to grudgingly accept though that violence is part of such a social struggle. As to political aims and ideology - it's more complicated. I think that the Red Shirts have a more coherent ideology and vision for the future of Thailand. Yet of course they are not without fault. But this is a work in progress. Over the past years they have developed quite a lot, and naturally they still have a long way to go.

You can see that when they began it was to the most part a simple support for Thaksin, and only a few small groups that went beyond that. Nowadays more and more Red Shirts discuss more structural issues of the state, and Thaksin is increasingly relegated to a symbol for their struggle. Proof of that is when Thaksin made his infamous ship speech on May 19, 2012, Red Shirts were very disappointed, and Thaksin was forced to apologize twice to the Red Shirts. This year he was smarter.

i would place the Red Shirts overall political ideology as a beginning social liberalism in Thailand. The Red Shirts do ask the right questions, while of course often they do not use the right strategies or tactics.

The problem with the yellow side is that they know what they are against (and some of their criticism is more than justified), but when it comes to a future vision for Thailand - their coherence stops. You got all shades there - from the extreme right to the extreme left (which often are not too dissimilar), you got communists, anarchists, ultra-royalists, and even a few anti-monarchists, you got capitalists, and anti-capitalists. they only combining factors they have is a strong nationalism and what they hate - Thaksin.

What i support is the overall struggle. I am convinced that this struggle was long overdue, and that through this struggle Thailand will grow and modernize in the end. While i cannot support the Yellow Shirt's nationalism and ultra-royalism, i am still glad for their existence, as it pushed a general politicization of Thai society, leading Thais to finally ask the questions they have to in order to advance. In this way, i am also glad for the occurrence of Thaksin, as his controversial rule has been a catalyst for this struggle.

I am looking there 5, 10 or 20 years ahead, to the point when this conflict is over, and Thai society will have benefited from what takes place today.

And i am very very glad that i have had the opportunity to be able to witness all that so closely.

[nicknostitz]

Be careful Nick your objectivity isn't showing. Well thanks for that long winded, name dropping exercise in spin and misdirection. We get it, yellow universe bad, red universe good.

Now can we get back on topic?

"Reacting to an assault by pro-government red shirts on anti-government white mask protesters in Chiang Mai last week, government critics called on Yingluck to show her stance against their behaviour. None of the government spokesmen has said anything."

If you don't know the different groups involved, their structures, their political views, what their leaders and protesters stand for, and how they develop, you will never be able to understand what this is about. Therefore i would suggest to learn a little bit about those groups before accusing me of simple "name dropping".

[rubl]

The topic here is alleged 'white mask' alleged 'guards' are alleged to have taken alleged 'iron' alleged 'bars' to allegedly 'try' to allegedly 'hit' allegedly 'red-shirts'.

As I know next to nothing about 'white masks', 'red-shirts', or other alleged protesters I might be wrong, allegedly that is.

[Thait Spot]

So we've heard from our photo journalist who seems to mostly walk around in red-shirt midst to show how objective he is in his judgments. That's nice. Then we have someone suggesting PAD = Siam Pitak = white masks, therefore suspect. Following we have someone chasing the opinion that innocent red-shirts trying to drive passed were harassed.

None of this matters a single iota! When the white shirts started to protest at Ratchaprasong with hardly two dozen persons the immediate reaction was condemnation. Pheu Thai, government speaking out that such protest was undemocratic, no longer needed and an insult to Thaksin. Following we had peaceful red-shirts protesting very close to the white masks. Obviously those red-shirts were provoked. I mean PM Yingluck herslef had said 'democracy finally regained after nearly a decade'.

So, back to topic. It has been reported that some white shirt guards may have grapped some tools to be on the watch for innocent red-shirts who might try to drive past on motorcy's. Pictures of all this 'whitemask' violence to follow. In the mean time one may have a look at the justly rage of provoked red-shirts in CM and other cities.

Democracy, Pheu Thai led government style. Allegedly or should that be transparently?

Nice distortion, as usual...

if you may have noticed - over the past two years i have done far more stories on assorted yellow shirt events than on Red Shirts. My latest story was on both sides with far more images on (and time spent with) yellow shirts.

Past Sunday i have spent exactly one hour with the Red Shirts, and 5 hours with the Yellow Shirts - first during the white mask march, and the remainder at Sanam Luang.

Thanks for *again* using this discussion to personally attack me.

Fair play Nick - you have the balls to go out their and do your job. Concentrating on taking photographs regardless of the potential dangers from any side. That earns you respect and reiterating your experiences and conversations is useful in helping contextualise what looks to be a worsening situation. Regardless of who they support or don't support and whatever their views, I hope people would not personally attack you or anyone else who puts their life on the line for their profession. Mind your back and keep your eyes open!

Thank you very much

I try not to put my life on the line though - i believe that being killed as a journalist equates to having failed in our profession, which is to communicate and to continue to do so. For me, at least, it's not about the adrenaline, but in making in a potentially hairy situation the right decision which should always be safety. That's why i rarely team up with colleagues, if i can avoid it, and prefer to work alone, not to be drawn into the adrenaline filled picture taking rush that so often happens in bad situations (and often gets photographers killed).

I got a family to come back home to.

But yes, it is a worsening situation, which i watch with concern. I would prefer it that this conflict would be taken out at the ballot box, and not on the street, and that the government opponents demonstrate on issues instead with the aim of overthrowing the elected government by any other means than via elections.

Don Muang has shown that they can win, fair and square, if they do decide to make the effort.

When these adrenaline junkie journos get too near the heat and are injured or killed, are they partly to blame?

I don't believe the link between the yellows and the Dems is a particularly strong one whereas the reds/PTP are in the same bed for sure. As for these masked people, if there is a link to the Dems then it must be minuscule and certainly not deserving of your rather patronising closing statement. Do you think they made the effort for the Bangkok Governor? For the Chiang Mai by-election?

[laurab74]

'White Mask' Guards Seen Trying To Hit Redshirts With Iron Bars

Nowt wrong with that. Next.

You approve of violence? You approve of sorting out our political issues with iron bars? I'm glad that folk with your opinions aren't running the country.

[nicknostitz]

When these adrenaline junkie journos get too near the heat and are injured or killed, are they partly to blame?

I don't believe the link between the yellows and the Dems is a particularly strong one whereas the reds/PTP are in the same bed for sure. As for these masked people, if there is a link to the Dems then it must be minuscule and certainly not deserving of your rather patronising closing statement. Do you think they made the effort for the Bangkok Governor? For the Chiang Mai by-election?

In such a extreme situation it is very easy to make mistakes, especially when one does not have too much experience. I have made my mistakes, and was lucky. Others have paid with their lives. But that journos made mistakes does not absolve the ones who shot them in any way. And as i guess if you think about Fabio in particular - no, it does not absolve the military.

The relationship between PT and Red Shirts on the one side, and Dems and Yellow Shirts on the other is both very complex, though quite different. While the relationship between the former is more open, the latter's is more hidden. But in both these marriages there is trouble. Most Reds are quite aware that most PT MP's are old style politicians who do not particularly like the Reds, and don't share the Red Shirt's aims for structural change, the Reds are aware that they still need this party, and these MP's are aware (and scared) of the power of the Reds.

The Dems and the Yellow shirts are only combined by their common enemy (as are many of the Yellow Shirt splinter groups to each other), nevertheless, in times of struggle they are working together quite closely, such as Democrat networks sending protesters and guards to support the Yellow protesters, and giving through their own networks institutional support.

At the present moment the white mask group is still in a warming up period, and there is very little Democrat Party support detectable, nor quite possibly yet necessary. If this thing plays along the old script and will reach the next stage as well, you may see more visible Democrat Party support, as we have seen in especially in 2006 and 2008.

[rubl]

Although it's interesting to read that red-shirts have evolved beyond Thaksin who has been relegated to figurehead (or should that be mask?), that red-shirts are aware that most PT MPs don't like them (excluding UDD leader MPs I hope) and that whenever someone protests against the Pheu Thai led government they come running to protect them.

The topic is alleged white mask guards getting sticks to try to hit red-shirts on motorcy's. Red-shirts who might have lost the way in joining their fellow protesters on the other side of the road, who protested against protests against the remote controlled ('don't like' Thaksin, Pheu Thai 'don't like red-shirts) acting government. Allegedly that is.

[rixalex]

Yes, my profession has changed since i decided to start writing about politics in mid 2008. While before i have written occasional articles, and was foremost a photographer, i am now both - a writer and photographer. But this is anyhow nowadays a somewhat fluid thing. Most writers nowadays take their own photos, and most photo journalists have to be able to write as well. Many magazines and newspapers nowadays simply expect us to be able to do both.

While it is without doubt helpful to have studied photography or journalism, in this line it is not essential. Nobody asks what, where or if you studied, but they look at your portfolio and your reputation, unless you aspire to become an editor, or look for a salaried job. There are many others who have studied other subjects and came into journalism from the side, or like me, who never studied. I have been in this profession since the mid 90's and worked with countless writers on many subjects, and learned in every assignment.

But i am seeing myself a bit on the way out of this profession anyhow. Journalism is in its biggest crisis ever, and i don't think it will recuperate. Budgets get ever smaller, and there is less and less publications, and the business is getting taken over by the large wire services. More and more journalists leave the profession, and very few free lancers can still live from the job. At the same time the risk is getting higher and higher. While on the one hand magazines and newspapers pretend that they protect us, in reality the images they buy are harder and harder. If a photographer still wants to be able to sell images, the risk to take becomes simply insane.

Or, editors expect you to do stuff which i find simply unethical. For example, a few months ago i had a job to do pictures accompanying a story on a home for Alzheimer patients and my client asked me why i did not take more pictures from inside the patients' rooms, and i had to tell them that these people are still humans and i have to respect their privacy, and that i only took images of patients rooms where i could make sure that it was OK with them, which was not so easy due to their condition.

But editors are under the same enormous pressure as well, so i can't really blame them.

I don't think i want to and can do what i would have to in order to continue in this profession. I would not like myself anymore.

Anyhow...

I think i was a bit unclear. I meant to say that i do not support violence of either side, i have to grudgingly accept though that violence is part of such a social struggle. As to political aims and ideology - it's more complicated. I think that the Red Shirts have a more coherent ideology and vision for the future of Thailand. Yet of course they are not without fault. But this is a work in progress. Over the past years they have developed quite a lot, and naturally they still have a long way to go.

You can see that when they began it was to the most part a simple support for Thaksin, and only a few small groups that went beyond that. Nowadays more and more Red Shirts discuss more structural issues of the state, and Thaksin is increasingly relegated to a symbol for their struggle. Proof of that is when Thaksin made his infamous ship speech on May 19, 2012, Red Shirts were very disappointed, and Thaksin was forced to apologize twice to the Red Shirts. This year he was smarter.

i would place the Red Shirts overall political ideology as a beginning social liberalism in Thailand. The Red Shirts do ask the right questions, while of course often they do not use the right strategies or tactics.

The problem with the yellow side is that they know what they are against (and some of their criticism is more than justified), but when it comes to a future vision for Thailand - their coherence stops. You got all shades there - from the extreme right to the extreme left (which often are not too dissimilar), you got communists, anarchists, ultra-royalists, and even a few anti-monarchists, you got capitalists, and anti-capitalists. they only combining factors they have is a strong nationalism and what they hate - Thaksin.

What i support is the overall struggle. I am convinced that this struggle was long overdue, and that through this struggle Thailand will grow and modernize in the end. While i cannot support the Yellow Shirt's nationalism and ultra-royalism, i am still glad for their existence, as it pushed a general politicization of Thai society, leading Thais to finally ask the questions they have to in order to advance. In this way, i am also glad for the occurrence of Thaksin, as his controversial rule has been a catalyst for this struggle.

I am looking there 5, 10 or 20 years ahead, to the point when this conflict is over, and Thai society will have benefited from what takes place today.

And i am very very glad that i have had the opportunity to be able to witness all that so closely.

Thanks for clarifying your position with regards your occupation, although i must admit i'm not totally clear on what distinguishes mere writers from professional journalists these days. If having studied and being qualified is no longer the criteria, is simply being paid for what you write sufficient to separate yourself? Seems as if perhaps it is. Not that i question the quality of your work. I might dislike the slant that i believe exists in it, but i always appreciate the level of research you put in to it and your general commitment.

Anyway, that aside, with regards your characterization of the two main opposing protest groups in Thailand, as much as we are able to divide them into two, i feel that the way you see them is far more to do with not how they are, but how you wish them to be. You see the reds as having shifted away from the pro-Thaksin movement that they began as, and now as a movement that goes far beyond him, and that has him merely as a symbol or figurehead. It's the line from red sympathizers that we have all been hearing for so many years now. That they were evolving into a proper people's social movement that would bring about real change that went far beyond simply helping Thaksin to hold onto power, and actually helped the common man.

Yes well, here we are today with Thaksin's sister as Prime Minister, with red leaders scattered throughout the government party, and with Thaksin himself pulling the strings of it all. And this is the party that the reds voted into power. The party they would all vote for tomorrow were there an election. They might not agree with the PTP on everything, but who else can they vote for, i hear someone saying? Well, if they really want to separate themselves and show that they are not simply another of Thaksin's tools, why not make some sort of stand on principle? Do perhaps what the yellows did when they disagreed with the party to which they had been aligned; tell their supporters to vote no. When that day comes, when the government isn't full of people with red connections, when their protests aren't full of posters bearing Shinawatra faces and messages for their savior to return, when Thaksin isn't making phone-in appearances to their events and being roundly cheered and applauded, perhaps then the reds aren't about Thaksin mantra will actual carry with it a ring of truth, rather than a ring of wishful thinking.

And with regards the yellows, in the same way that i feel you are keen to distance the reds from pro-Thaksinism because that strengthens the reds credibility, i feel that you are keen to distance the yellows from anti-Thaksinism, and concentrate on such things as ultra-royalism, fascism, anarchism, elitism, anti-democracy, because that weakens their credibility. I believe that for the yellows, their struggle and their reason for their existence, isn't really any of those things at all, it is Thaksin, much like their "fellow" reds on the other side of the fence.

Remove him and his family from the equation, take away this primary cause of what divides Thai people right now, and quite suddenly the fence would come down, and these two groups could quite easily merge into one, under the banner of their love for the King and their love for the country... because above all else, that is what i think matters to Thai people, be they red, yellow, blue or white... or any other color.

[waza]

When these adrenaline junkie journos get too near the heat and are injured or killed, are they partly to blame?

I don't believe the link between the yellows and the Dems is a particularly strong one whereas the reds/PTP are in the same bed for sure. As for these masked people, if there is a link to the Dems then it must be minuscule and certainly not deserving of your rather patronising closing statement. Do you think they made the effort for the Bangkok Governor? For the Chiang Mai by-election?

In such a extreme situation it is very easy to make mistakes, especially when one does not have too much experience. I have made my mistakes, and was lucky. Others have paid with their lives. But that journos made mistakes does not absolve the ones who shot them in any way. And as i guess if you think about Fabio in particular - no, it does not absolve the military.

The relationship between PT and Red Shirts on the one side, and Dems and Yellow Shirts on the other is both very complex, though quite different. While the relationship between the former is more open, the latter's is more hidden. But in both these marriages there is trouble. Most Reds are quite aware that most PT MP's are old style politicians who do not particularly like the Reds, and don't share the Red Shirt's aims for structural change, the Reds are aware that they still need this party, and these MP's are aware (and scared) of the power of the Reds.

The Dems and the Yellow shirts are only combined by their common enemy (as are many of the Yellow Shirt splinter groups to each other), nevertheless, in times of struggle they are working together quite closely, such as Democrat networks sending protesters and guards to support the Yellow protesters, and giving through their own networks institutional support.

At the present moment the white mask group is still in a warming up period, and there is very little Democrat Party support detectable, nor quite possibly yet necessary. If this thing plays along the old script and will reach the next stage as well, you may see more visible Democrat Party support, as we have seen in especially in 2006 and 2008.

OMB do you ever get tired of blowing your own horn? Or ever comment on topic?

Edited June 18, 2013 by waza

[nicknostitz]

OMB do you ever get tired of blowing your own horn? Or ever comment on topic?

Please don't interrupt when grown-ups have a for Thaivisa unusually good conversation. Such comments are quite ill-mannered and contribute nothing.