Is there still hope for me...

[Cloggie]

Live and work now for almost 15 years in Thailand and still after all those years are not able to hear the difference between all the tones, 'chicken'/ 'egg' it sounds all the same for me even after my girlfriend will repeat it a 1.000 times.

Can hear the difference between short and long vowels but when it comes to mid / low / rising / falling / high again, I completely fail, don't understand that people hear difference between them as I don't hear any difference at all. Even if I hear a small difference then I am still confused because what is high for you maybe rising for me...

If it comes to reading and writing I can see the words but will be unable to pronounce them as I can't pronounce the tones correct. My girlfriend will understand them, in the bar they will understand me but a conversation with another Thai will be impossible. Is there still hope for me or should I just give it up after all those years.

[justben]

Cloggie

I say find a highly fluent foreigner to do 1 on 1 lessons with you as a final attempt. Both listening and speaking. If you already tried that, then it's probably time to accept that you may not progress any further, given that it's been 15 years since you started trying.

On the brighter side, you aren't missing a whole lot

[Gsxrnz]

I'm far from fluent and cannot read Thai. I decided a while ago to focus less on the tones and more on the stress of syllables that make up the word. This is particularly helpful when listening to Thai because unstressed syllables tend to move toward the mid tone as they speak faster and tend to slur.

I find that If you can speak faster (assuming that your general fluency is reasonable), then the tones become less important up to a point, and the stress syllables help you emulate a tone to some extent. If the stressed syllable is emphasized, it seems (at least for me) to make you more understandable and more confident.

However, I'm told that the correct pronunciation and vowel length is generally as important as tone also, so I've been watching the vowel length as well - both of these methods have helped me improve overall tones without actually trying to improve them. If I'm in doubt I make sure I use enough words to get the key word in context and provided you're not a million miles away, listeners are generally forgiving, and will help you pronounce the word better.

Have a friend from the US that has a horrible Thai accent that even grates me. Water becomes "nayam playow".

Edited June 19, 2013 by Gsxrnz

[kriswillems]

I know somebody that worked here for more than 10 years and never studied Thai in a formal way (in a school). His Thai was really bad. After 10 years he decided to finally study the language and within about 6 months he was really good.

Unless you've a serious hearing problem, I think you can study Thai too. I am not a doctor but I think for everyone with a normal hearing it should be physically possible to hear the tones. We just have to "unlearn" not hearing the tones.

The speed at which you study Thai will probably depend at your talent for languages. But even people with very little talent for studying languages, or even very little talent for studying anything will eventually reach a level that's good enough for everyday conversations. That's what I saw with everyone that I met in school and that didn't give up.

PS. It's normal that you don't hear a tone difference between chicken and egg because they have the same tone.

Edited June 19, 2013 by kriswillems

[AyG]

"what is high for you maybe rising for me..."

Part of the confusion may be coming from the names of the tones. A high tone isn't simply high. For long vowels it starts high, dips a little, then rises. Until I realised this I was confused between high and rising tones since both rise.

[Rsquared]

With High Speed Thai, they have a graph that shows the differences in the tones.....so as you practice listening to the different tones you also have a visual representation to help you differentiate between the tones.

Helped me a lot, as I considered myself "Tone Deaf" when I first started to learn.

I am confused Cloggie that you cannot hear the difference between chicken and egg, one is pronounced with a "g" as in gate, the other with a "k" as in Kate.

Good Luck.

Cheers.

[Cloggie]

With High Speed Thai, they have a graph that shows the differences in the tones.....so as you practice listening to the different tones you also have a visual representation to help you differentiate between the tones.

Helped me a lot, as I considered myself "Tone Deaf" when I first started to learn.

I am confused Cloggie that you cannot hear the difference between chicken and egg, one is pronounced with a "g" as in gate, the other with a "k" as in Kate.

Good Luck.

Cheers.

Will have a look at High Speed Thai

If you tell me 'gate' or 'kate' I will not hear the difference but only will understand it from the sentence, like her name is Kate / close the gate.

[kikenyoy]

If you can't hear the difference in your native language then I doubt you'll ever be able to hear it in a foreign one.

Have you ever had your hearing checked?

[Cloggie]

I don't think I have problems with my ears, well not that I am aware off....

I think the difference is so minimum between 'k' and 'g' that I just can't hear it.

If you tell me 'bicycle' or 'car' yes I can hear that but if you tell me ไก่ or ไข่ they are identical for me and as the information is in the tones, I / they don't understand what I want.

[KunMatt]

My Thai is still not great (I authored this thread http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/457190-what-level-of-speaking-and-writing-thai-are-you-at/ - I will post an update one day soon as to where I am at now...) but I can definitely hear a clear distinction between ไก่ and ไข่, or rather ก and ข but it could just be the region you are living in as the accents differ place to place greatly. When I say each letter, ข is more aspirated.

Like someone else said, for me, the length and emphasis on syllable is as important, if not more, than the tone. I definitely concentrate more on saying the correct length of the word and the correct tempo (if you will) of the sentence than the tone of each word and I can generally get by OK.

However, I agree that there have been words I have heard 1,000 times and they still do not sound like their written pronunciation; for example my gf's cousin's name; I have been calling her "Lat" for 3 years, it wasn't until I saw her post on Facebook that I read her name was รัก which if I had known before I would have been saying "Rak" or "Lak", but in 3 years not once has anybody ever said to me "Who is "Lat"?" when I've said her name.

I think it's an accents problem. I live in Isaan but talk Thai. When I first got there my gf's parents would always say "Ga Baan" and I assumed that "Ga" was another word for "let's go to" (this is how you learn by immersion, not the best way by any means!). Even though กลับ was one of the first words I learnt from my book, the way they said it didn't sound anything like that and it took me weeks or perhaps even months until I twigged that they were just pronouncing the word very differently from how I had previously learnt.

Thai is by far the hardest language I've ever tried to learn, there are parts of it which are simple like the grammar and not having a verb tense, but every word sounds so similar to a dozen other words and Thai's neither pronounce it properly or clearly that I almost gave up a few times myself, I still cannot follow 2 native speakers having a normal long conversation (or the TV at all).

If you have any reason to learn the language then definitely stick at it, at least you will be able to be understood even if you cannot understand who you are talking to if they are having a conversation about chicken or eggs.

[kikenyoy]

I was referring more to your gate/Kate example. Yes, they are similar sounds except for the burst of air with the k. Maybe you should work on trying to hear the difference in English first so you only have to worry about the sound and not the tone and vowel length also. Tackle each one individually if it's a problem for you.

As has been pointed out before, ไก่ and ไข่ have the same tone (and vowel length). The only difference is the initial consonant.

You mentioned bars, where do you live? If you're in Pattaya also then we can meet up and I can try to give you a hand, if you'd like. I'm not a language teacher and there are plenty of farang who speak better Thai than I do, but I don't have a problem being understood or with hearing the different tones and sounds. I have a few ideas that might help you.

[CaptHaddock]

One thing the OP can be sure of is that the "method" he has used for 15 years has been proven to be ineffective. If you want the results to change you have to change the method. Expecting to "pick it up" simply by exposure to the language has failed and will certainly continue to fail for the OP.

If you look at those people who have been successful at learning to speak and understand Thai, most of them studied in a school and continued to study for a long while. Education works. Try it.

[DavidMavec]

Learn to read, and well. I had a difficult time with this until I learned to read. Then it became a lot more clear and my pronunciation improved.

[swissie]

Have 2 Farangs in my immediate neighborhood:

- One speaks fairly good Thai without applying any sort of tonality. Result: Only his closest family-members can understand him and nobody else.

- The other one lives in Thailand for 25 years and except for "Sawasdee-khrap" and "Khop Khun-Khrap". doesn't speak another word of Thai.

Explanation: "If I would speak and understand Thai, I would not have been able to lead a worry free and happy live in Thailand for the last 25 years." And more: "Any person understanding Thai (without disclosing this fact), will exit this country in less than 2 years, never to return". According to a 25 year Farang-resident.

Maybe language-ignorance is bliss.

Cheers.

[Cloggie]

@kikenyoy, thanks for the offer but I don't live in Pattaya

@swissie, that's the problem I have as well, only my family and friends understand me...

I also have been told that:

- you MUST learn to read Thai as 'it' tells how to pronounce it, it will tell you long / short vowel - rising or falling etc.

- if you are male (like most of use) you need a male teacher as otherwise you will learn Thai with a female accent

Time for study

[Cloggie]

I think we all know the book "Thai for beginners" from Benjawan Poomsan Becker.

I started again my study Thai and this is the only book that I like, I also have the MP3 files so installed these on my MP3 player for my study

For those who have the book, look at page 12, 13 and 14 - tones - this is exactly the problem I have.

When I listen to the MP3 files I can't hear any difference at all as it all sounds similar to me, high / low / rising .....

When 100 people from different languages tell me the word "sheep" I am sure it will be pronounced 90 times different BUT I am still able to understand probably "sheep", even from somebody who comes from France

As nobody speaks the same and high / low / short / long is maybe different for people and maybe even different between male / female / old / young, how can you hear what they say????

I have been told that this is one of the reasons Thai ask for confirmation 'chai mai' as sometimes they are confused as well what the speakers wants.

A still confused Cloggie

Edited June 25, 2013 by Cloggie

[CaptHaddock]

Cloggie,

On reflection, I think you should devote your free time to playing billiards or some other pleasant recreation. With respect to learning Thai, there is indeed no hope for you at all.

Cheers.

I think we all know the book "Thai for beginners" from Benjawan Poomsan Becker.

I started again my study Thai and this is the only book that I like, I also have the MP3 files so installed these on my MP3 player for my study

For those who have the book, look at page 12, 13 and 14 - tones - this is exactly the problem I have.

When I listen to the MP3 files I can't hear any difference at all as it all sounds similar to me, high / low / rising .....

When 100 people from different languages tell me the word "sheep" I am sure it will be pronounced 90 times different BUT I am still able to understand probably "sheep", even from somebody who comes from France

As nobody speaks the same and high / low / short / long is maybe different for people and maybe even different between male / female / old / young, how can you hear what they say????

I have been told that this is one of the reasons Thai ask for confirmation 'chai mai' as sometimes they are confused as well what the speakers wants.

A still confused Cloggie

[Cloggie]

For those interested, started yesterday again with Thai lessons and with help of my teacher I made some progress and according to her "there is still hope"....

A few things I learned:

- prepare Thais that you will speak Thai, just tell them first "Sawadee khap" and then most likely they will expect that you will speak Thai otherwise they think that you will speak English...

- information is in the tones low / falling / high / rising so you need to practice, practice, practice etc etc

- speak s.l.o.w.l.y so you have time for all the tones, I try to speak to fast and as a result a lot of information is lost.

- some people can't read or write but can speak, they only rely on memorizing - nothing wrong with that - but if you can read you don't need to memorize everything

If you want to know - I paid TB 10.500 for 30 hours private lessons at home.

Anyway lets see in a few weeks time if I made any progress.

Will keep you updated

[longway]

I think we all know the book "Thai for beginners" from Benjawan Poomsan Becker.

I started again my study Thai and this is the only book that I like, I also have the MP3 files so installed these on my MP3 player for my study

For those who have the book, look at page 12, 13 and 14 - tones - this is exactly the problem I have.

When I listen to the MP3 files I can't hear any difference at all as it all sounds similar to me, high / low / rising .....

When 100 people from different languages tell me the word "sheep" I am sure it will be pronounced 90 times different BUT I am still able to understand probably "sheep", even from somebody who comes from France

As nobody speaks the same and high / low / short / long is maybe different for people and maybe even different between male / female / old / young, how can you hear what they say????

I have been told that this is one of the reasons Thai ask for confirmation 'chai mai' as sometimes they are confused as well what the speakers wants.

A still confused Cloggie

Look up the software voice viewer. In fact here is a link.

http://slice-of-thai.com/voice-viewer/

Read the instructions on setting it up and play those mp3 files you have with the program running, you will see a visual representation of the tones. I think once you can 'see' the differences in the tones, you will be able to make the transition into hearing them.

For some people, there is no short cut, I would listen to tones and practice them for literally hours, it was so boring, but thats what it took to finally starting be being able to hear them and say them reasonably well enough to be understood. I think it takes time for the brain to rewire itself enough to achieve the tonality. About the long/short vowels etc I dont have any suggestions mate, you are on your own.

In fact if you read through some of the links on the page for the voice viewer you will see that the web site goes into some of the issues you mentioned in quite some detail.

Edited July 10, 2013 by longway