Australian Senate vote to not recognise overseas gay marriages ...

[David48]

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NEW laws that would have seen Australia recognise same-sex marriages performed overseas have been voted down in Canberra.

The failed vote in the Senate, in which 28 voted for and 44 against, came as Liberal Senator Sue Boyce broke with colleagues to vote for the Greens Bill, saying gay marriage would not see the world end.

Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young, who introduced the legislation, said it would have undone 2004 laws that prohibited the recognition of overseas marriages here and called on colleagues to follow their conscience in voting.

The unsuccessful vote means the laws will not be voted on in the House of Representatives.

Here

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news ... just keeping you abreast of what's happening in Australia.

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[sustento]

The title of this thread is very misleading. It implies that the vote was successful.

[Scott]

I have edited the title and inserted a 'not'. We are not supposed to do that, but this thread title isn't misleading, it is actually wrong.

Thanks for pointing it out.

[David48]

EDIT:- It's not worth the angst.

Apologies for having bought you this OP.

Noted for next time ...

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Edited June 20, 2013 by David48

[sustento]

Yes the title was a statement of fact. It read "Australian senate vote to recognise overseas gay marriages". The only way that that statement can be read is that the senate voted to recognise overseas gay marriages whereas the senate actually voted NOT to recognise overseas gay marriages.

[Scott]

So now if you are legally married in one place, you might not be legally married in another place? This gets confusing. I assume that hetero couples don't have this problem?

[David48]

^^ One wag was reporting that the Tourism New Zealand was also disappointed by the outcome of the Australian Senate vote.

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[isanbirder]

According to your OP, David, Australia doesn't recognise ANY overseas marriages, gay or otherwise. In this case, I don't see that we're any worse off than anybody else. But maybe that's not what you meant.

[David48]

According to your OP, David, Australia doesn't recognise ANY overseas marriages, gay or otherwise. In this case, I don't see that we're any worse off than anybody else. But maybe that's not what you meant.

If you are referring to this quote from the OP ... "Greens Senator Sarah Hanson-Young, who introduced the legislation, said it would have undone 2004 laws that prohibited the recognition of overseas marriages here and called on colleagues to follow their conscience in voting."

Then I understand your comment and I attribute the mis-understanding to the poorly phrased article.

What I don't understand is why I'm coping a bit of stick for simply reporting a news item from Australia that you may or may not have heard, had I not mentioned it here.

I know that I'm posting in the Gay People in Thailand Forum and I simply thought that the members here, as a community, might be interested in some world news on a topic, presumably, close to your heart.

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[Scott]

Your post is appreciated, David, and don't feel compelled to answer anything if you can't, don't want to, or don't have a strong opinion.

The information is interesting and perhaps other Australians can provide an answer to Isanbirder's question.

[isanbirder]

Thank you, David. but I couldn't resist pointing out the absurd sentence from your source. We're not as nasty as you think, but like everybody else, can't always resist taking the mickey.

People on this forum are interested primarily in news about the US, to a small extent about Thailand and the UK, but very little about anywhere else. If you doubt me, look at the post counts per thread

[David48]

Mate ... never a problem.

I'm probably overly sensitive because this Forum is a minefield for me

and careful to have my best PC hat on.

I know you personally are well respected in general and have read many

of your posts. Scott's an Aussie, so that's gold!

But riddle me this Batman isanbirder ... what or why is the focus here on the USA?

If you read the Visa (outgoing) Forum, you'd swear blind the Forum was full of Poms

In General Pattaya Forum ... full of ex-SAS ...

Down here, full of Yanks.

Any reason?

BTW ... when I was researching this, I came across some information that you

probably all know but will put on the record ...

Same-sex marriage is legal in:

• New Zealand, 2013
• Uruguay, 2013
• Denmark, 2012
• Argentina, 2010
• Portugal, 2010
• Iceland, 2010
• Sweden, 2009
• Norway, 2009
• South Africa, 2006
• Spain, 2005
• Canada, 2005
• Belgium, 2003
• The Netherlands, 2000

ABC News ... what happened to France ...

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[sustento]

You don't need to be PC in here. All we ask is to be treated like other human beings and not gratuitously insulted. Just treat the place as though you're in a virtual gay bar.

[isanbirder]

Why is this forum full of Americans, David? Well, one big reason is that a high proportion of the threads are initiated by Americans.

If you want to be cynical, of course, you could say that the US has 50 (or is it 51 now?) separate gay rights problems.

[LeCharivari]

Not so much “bad news” as common sense. A similar bill aimed at recognizing gay marriages registered overseas for Australians (but not foreign nationals) was defeated last year, and to have passed this bill would have made a nonsense of parliament’s position as it would have given foreign laws precedence over Australian laws IN Australia.

According to your OP, David, Australia doesn't recognise ANY overseas marriages, gay or otherwise. In this case, I don't see that we're any worse off than anybody else. But maybe that's not what you meant.

(edit) .....The information is interesting and perhaps other Australians can provide an answer to Isanbirder's question.

To be fair to David, IB, he was only quoting the incredibly badly written and misleading article in his link and as an "other Australian" I'll have a go at answering.

There were no “2004 laws that prohibited the recognition of overseas marriages” in Australia. The “2004 laws” referred to were amendments to the Marriage Act of 1961 defining marriage as being between a man and a woman and clarifying that any same-sex marriages already carried out abroad and previously recognized were no longer recognized in Australia.

Gay marriages registered overseas are taken as confirming same sex relationships which effectively confer the same rights as marriage in Australia and have done since 2009, but although Australia is a very egalitarian country with strong policies against discrimination it is also a conservative one in many ways; given the state of Australian politics it looks unlikely that gay marriage will be on the cards in Australia for a while, although that may change with Kevin Rudd back in charge of Labor.

Edited July 3, 2013 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

So now if you are legally married in one place, you might not be legally married in another place? This gets confusing. I assume that hetero couples don't have this problem?

This question has been asked and answered here several times relatively recently, but I’ll give it another go.

Marriage laws, like any other, are based on the laws of the country you are IN not the country you are FROM, so marriages which are performed outside the country you are IN are valid as long as they meet those laws and invalid if they don’t. It doesn’t have anything to do with whether they are “gay marriages” or for “hetero couples”. If you have a legal child bride in India and you took them to England not only would your marriage not be recognized but you could be arrested. If you expected your multiple legal marriages to your four wives in Saudi Arabia to be recognized in the USA you would be disappointed .… and so on.

It’s no different to other laws: your foreign driving license may entitle you to drive a car, but it doesn’t entitle you to ignore the speed limits on the motorways in America just because it was issued in Germany.

[LeCharivari]

You don't need to be PC in here. All we ask is to be treated like other human beings and not gratuitously insulted. Just treat the place as though you're in a virtual gay bar.

Not quite that simple sometimes as some people feel insulted just by having their opinions contradicted and throw "anti-gay" accusations around like lèse majesté accusations at a Democrat convention!

“Insulting” someone is no longer an offence in the UK (only “using threatening or abusive words or behavior”) as it had been abused to the point of farce – is barking at a dog an insult? Is calling a horse “gay” an insult? Is calling anyone “gay” an insult? Some may take it as a statement of fact, some an insult, and some a compliment, however it was meant ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9801377/Insulting-words-crime-which-made-it-illegal-to-call-a-police-horse-gay-is-to-be-changed.html )

In gay bars in the UK being (or feeling) "gratuitously insulted" is now no longer an offence (as long as it does not become abusive).

[sustento]

You don't need to be PC in here. All we ask is to be treated like other human beings and not gratuitously insulted. Just treat the place as though you're in a virtual gay bar.

Not quite that simple sometimes as some people feel insulted just by having their opinions contradicted and throw "anti-gay" accusations around like lèse majesté accusations at a Democrat convention!

“Insulting” someone is no longer an offence in the UK (only “using threatening or abusive words or behavior”) as it had been abused to the point of farce – is barking at a dog an insult? Is calling a horse “gay” an insult? Is calling anyone “gay” an insult? Some may take it as a statement of fact, some an insult, and some a compliment, however it was meant ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9801377/Insulting-words-crime-which-made-it-illegal-to-call-a-police-horse-gay-is-to-be-changed.html )

In gay bars in the UK being (or feeling) "gratuitously insulted" is now no longer an offence (as long as it does not become abusive).

I was thinking along the lines of someone wandering into the gay forum and shouting 'you're all f*cking p**fs' - that sort of gratuitous insult

[LeCharivari]

You don't need to be PC in here. All we ask is to be treated like other human beings and not gratuitously insulted. Just treat the place as though you're in a virtual gay bar.

Not quite that simple sometimes as some people feel insulted just by having their opinions contradicted and throw "anti-gay" accusations around like lèse majesté accusations at a Democrat convention!

“Insulting” someone is no longer an offence in the UK (only “using threatening or abusive words or behavior”) as it had been abused to the point of farce – is barking at a dog an insult? Is calling a horse “gay” an insult? Is calling anyone “gay” an insult? Some may take it as a statement of fact, some an insult, and some a compliment, however it was meant ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9801377/Insulting-words-crime-which-made-it-illegal-to-call-a-police-horse-gay-is-to-be-changed.html )

In gay bars in the UK being (or feeling) "gratuitously insulted" is now no longer an offence (as long as it does not become abusive).

I was thinking along the lines of someone wandering into the gay forum and shouting 'you're all f*cking p**fs' - that sort of gratuitous insult

While it would previously have been "insulting" it would now be abusive if you said it to someone in a gay bar, but it would be something we would have to put up with if, say, two straights said "they're all f*cking p**fs" loudly about us.

Unfortunately its all part of the "reverse bigotry backlash" which is now coming back to bite us.

[David48]

Thanks LeCharivari for your thoughts above.

I've ran out of likes for the moment.

You have described in an elegant way some of my thoughts and feelings.

Cheers ...

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[David48]

I didn't know which one to post this in ... so safer in my own backyard and I don't want to start a new OP after my previous experience so ...

BREAKING NEWS ...

Gay marriages likely before challenge

THE ACT could experience a wedding boom by Christmas if it passes a law allowing same-sex marriage.

The ACT Labor government expects the legislation to pass with the support of Greens MLA Shane Rattenbu

But (theres always a but involved) Commonwealth Attorney-General George Brandis warns it may be distressing for same-sex couples if, encouraged to use the law, their marriages are later invalidated by a High Court challenge.

The Australian Newspaper

So, in a nut shell, Australia is set up like the USA ... a collection of a series of individual States and Territories, with a higher umbrella Federal Government.

The ACT (Australian Capital Territory) which is a relatively small governing jurisdiction but contains the Australian Capital Canberra is set to pony up legislation allowing same sex marriages.

The recently elected Australian Government (a higher level) has said that if the ACT passes the law, it will be challenged in a High Court and most likely overturned ... but there is a real chance that, if only for a short time, same sex marriages will be legal in Australia.

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[Jingthing]

...

BTW ... when I was researching this, I came across some information that you

probably all know but will put on the record ...

Same-sex marriage is legal in:

• New Zealand, 2013
• Uruguay, 2013
• Denmark, 2012
• Argentina, 2010
• Portugal, 2010
• Iceland, 2010
• Sweden, 2009
• Norway, 2009
• South Africa, 2006
• Spain, 2005
• Canada, 2005
• Belgium, 2003
• The Netherlands, 2000

ABC News ... what happened to France ...

.

This list is more complete and up to date:

Argentina

Belgium

Brazil

Canada

Denmark:

· Denmark proper

France

Iceland

Mexico:¹

· DF, QR

Netherlands:

· Netherlands proper

New Zealand:

· New Zealand proper

Norway

Portugal

South Africa

Spain

Sweden

United Kingdom:

· England & Wales^†

United States:

· CA, CT, DC, DE, IA,

· MA, MD, ME, MN, NH,

· NM (8 counties),²

· NY, RI, VT, WA, 6 tribes

Uruguay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage

Edited October 10, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

There's a good chance that exactly the same thing would happen as happened in the ACT in 2006 with Civil Unions, as even if the bill gets passed its still got to be approved by the Governor General, and that depends on approval from the Federal Executive Council. As that's effectively made up of serving Government ministers (the senior members of the cabinet) its unlikely.

[David48]

ACT passes same sex marriage bill ...

The ACT has been declared the “rainbow territory’’ after the Legislative Assembly passed a bill to establish Australia’s first same-sex marriage scheme.

To thunderous applause from the public gallery, the single-chamber Parliament voted to approve a marriage equality law by eight votes to seven on Tuesday.

Under the law, same-sex couples from across Australia will be able to marry in Australia by the end of the year.

Here

Actually, I think the journalist got a bit carried away with this writing ... Under the law, same-sex couples from across Australia will be able to marry in Australia ACT by the end of the year.

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[LeCharivari]

ACT passes same sex marriage bill ...

The ACT has been declared the “rainbow territory’’ after the Legislative Assembly passed a bill to establish Australia’s first same-sex marriage scheme.

To thunderous applause from the public gallery, the single-chamber Parliament voted to approve a marriage equality law by eight votes to seven on Tuesday.

Under the law, same-sex couples from across Australia will be able to marry in Australia by the end of the year.

Here

Actually, I think the journalist got a bit carried away with this writing ... Under the law, same-sex couples from across Australia will be able to marry in Australia ACT by the end of the year.

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Technically the journo's right, if a bit misleading - any same-sex Australian couples (or same-sex couples who have one Aussie partner) can get married in Australia, but they just have to go to the ACT to do it.

As it won't come into effect until the end of the year, though, it will be interesting to see what comes first - a couple getting married or the bill getting turned down by the High Court as unconstitutional, which its pretty inevitable will happen as its against the 2004 amendment to the 1961 Marriage Act which said that marriage was only between a man and a woman and that same-sex marriages were not recognised in Australia.

Its a pity, but as the new government is particularly conservative (small 'c') and surprisingly Catholic (big 'c' !) any same-sex marriage legislation is unlikely in Oz for a while, although at least all the practical benefits of same-sex marriage already apply.

Edited October 23, 2013 by LeCharivari

[LeCharivari]

A same-sex marriage bill was just rejected in NSW by a vote of 21 - 19 as the premier, Barry O'Farrell, seems to have lost his nerve and taken the easy way out despite earlier saying that he would support the bill. He ended up voting against it on the basis that it was a decision for Australia, not one State, so hoping to please all sides ... hopefully he has ended up pleasing none and will get voted out for being a wimp as a result.

its a pity as although it may not necessarily have survived a high court challenge, as the ACT act may not, it would be another prod to the federal government to have a vote on the issue which looks unlikely to happen with this government. It would make little difference practically as de-facto same-sex couples already have similar rights to married couples but it would be nice to formalise things and get into the 21st century.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/14/same-sex-marriage-bill-defeated

[David48]

Thanks for the update.

Sorry for the slow response ... I didn't know there was your reply.

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[steven100]

Australia needs to grow up. It is over regulated with way too many rules. That,s why I won't live there again.

Sent from my TR736 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[LeCharivari]

Australia needs to grow up. It is over regulated with way too many rules. That,s why I won't live there again.

Sent from my TR736 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

From a gay perspective (and this is the GAY Forum, after all), I can't think of any "rules" in Australia concerning gays (discrimination, rights, etc) that are unwarranted.

[marcusd]

So now if you are legally married in one place, you might not be legally married in another place? This gets confusing. I assume that hetero couples don't have this problem?

Nope heteros dont have it and Asutralia has the Kangaroo and the Emu on the coast of arms. Do you know why?

BECAUSE Australia is supposed to be like those animals- unable to go backwards and always mnoving forwards.

NOT WITH THIS FASCIST LOT OF PIGS in power GRRRRRRRRR