Third of Jordanian teens believe 'honor killings' justified, study shows

[intrepidphil]

It really seems like none of you read the report.

It clearly says that for the most part they do not believe that this is connected to religion. The cause appears to be that the practice is a cultural tradition and strongly related to poor education.

But what the hell, it's a good opportunity for a rant about Muslims.

[Ulysses G.]

The problem is that it is a "cultural tradition" that Muslims all over the word seem to share.

[intrepidphil]

Again, it's not shared by Muslims all over the world. Someone pointed our earlier that in Malasia and Indonesia, instances are low. While in India, a predominantly Hindu nation, they are high. This is more connected to the oppression of women than to religion.

[DocN]

Western countries simply need to draw line on certain cultural practices and not back down. Easier said than done though.

in western countries it is called domestic violence.

In western countries, these things are handled as offences...not as something that is "okay" or even desirable.

[Scott]

Intrepidphil, some of us do read the report. It says this:

According to the researchers, the attitudes are far more likely in adolescent boys with low education backgrounds and it did not appear to be linked to religious beliefs. Instead, the main factors include patriarchal and traditional worldviews, emphasis placed on female 'virtue,' and a more general belief that violence against others is morally justified.

Jordan has a population that includes Druze, Bahai and Christians. The statement that it is not linked to religious beliefs would tend to indicate that other religions were included in the research. It would also indicate that these groups had culturally similar practices.

My question is one that is statistical in nature, since the report has taken religion out of the equation.

[Jingthing]

92 percent of Jordon is Muslim, mostly Sunni. If you are studying a massively predominant Muslim country the CULTURE is obviously linked to the religion whether explicitly, or not. Yes the dominant culture/religion impacts the ENTIRE population in such countries. I speak from personal experience about that.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Jingthing

[intrepidphil]

92 percent of Jordon is Muslim, mostly Sunni. If you are studying a massively predominant Muslim country the CULTURE is obviously linked to the religion whether explicitly, or not. Yes the dominant culture/religion impacts the ENTIRE population in such countries. I speak from personal experience about that.

True but the incidence drops through education not apostasy.

[manarak]

Intrepidphil, some of us do read the report. It says this:

According to the researchers, the attitudes are far more likely in adolescent boys with low education backgrounds and it did not appear to be linked to religious beliefs. Instead, the main factors include patriarchal and traditional worldviews, emphasis placed on female 'virtue,' and a more general belief that violence against others is morally justified.

Jordan has a population that includes Druze, Bahai and Christians. The statement that it is not linked to religious beliefs would tend to indicate that other religions were included in the research. It would also indicate that these groups had culturally similar practices.

My question is one that is statistical in nature, since the report has taken religion out of the equation.

I can believe the poll and to some extent the statement that the results are more linked to lack of education and imposition of a patriarcal worldview -

BUT: what formed that patriarcal worldview, if not religious beliefs?

Traditions often develop within a religious group.

As JT said, 92% of Jordan population is Muslim.

I would bet my hat that "patriarcal worldviews" in the region are believed by the people to be strongly associated with religion. An earlier poster mentioned the Sha'ria... I would consider that "tradition".

Separating religion from tradition is a Western thing.

Look what happens in Thailand - all these Buddhists doing so many un-Buddhist things for "good luck", supported by the monks in the temples who even organise the games!

A very good example are the Jews. There are modern Jews, and there are traditionalist Jews. I had some conversations on why the latter would wear those large cake-shaped fur hats and black overalls in the summer, queried them if the Jewish religion required it. They said no, but they chose to follow tradition and tradition is everything to them!

No doubt the next Western claim will be that Sha'Ria has nothing to do with Islam.

Edited June 22, 2013 by manarak

[intrepidphil]

Intrepidphil, some of us do read the report. It says this:

According to the researchers, the attitudes are far more likely in adolescent boys with low education backgrounds and it did not appear to be linked to religious beliefs. Instead, the main factors include patriarchal and traditional worldviews, emphasis placed on female 'virtue,' and a more general belief that violence against others is morally justified.

Jordan has a population that includes Druze, Bahai and Christians. The statement that it is not linked to religious beliefs would tend to indicate that other religions were included in the research. It would also indicate that these groups had culturally similar practices.

My question is one that is statistical in nature, since the report has taken religion out of the equation.

I can believe the poll and to some extent the statement that the results are more linked to lack of education and imposition of a patriarcal worldview -

BUT: what formed that patriarcal worldview, if not religious beliefs?

Traditions often develop within a religious group.

As JT said, 92% of Jordan population is Muslim.

I would bet my hat that "patriarcal worldviews" in the region are believed by the people to be strongly associated with religion. An earlier poster mentioned the Sha'ria... I would consider that "tradition".

Separating religion from tradition is a Western thing.

Look what happens in Thailand - all these Buddhists doing so many un-Buddhist things for "good luck", supported by the monks in the temples who even organise the games!

A very good example are the Jews. There are modern Jews, and there are traditionalist Jews. I had some conversations on why the latter would wear those large cake-shaped fur hats and black overalls in the summer, queried them if the Jewish religion required it. They said no, but they chose to follow tradition and tradition is everything to them!

No doubt the next Western claim will be that Sha'Ria has nothing to do with Islam.

I don't think that separating religion from tradition is limited to the west. It's an evolution which has happened quicker in the west but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening elsewhere too. If anything, the report seems to show that education is happening and is the key.

I'm always happy to advise anyone of any religion that maybe they should rethink their life but the fact is that they are entitled to their belief and banging on about "the problem with Islam" isn't going to change a thing. I just don't see Islam as being intrinsically worse than any other religion. The same extreme traditions found in Islam, are written into the Torah and therefore into the Christian religion too. It's modern education that has made them obsolete.

[Steely Dan]

92 percent of Jordon is Muslim, mostly Sunni. If you are studying a massively predominant Muslim country the CULTURE is obviously linked to the religion whether explicitly, or not. Yes the dominant culture/religion impacts the ENTIRE population in such countries. I speak from personal experience about that.

With 92% Muslim it would surely take a survey of a great sample size in order to draw any conclusions about the 8% who aren't. I'm not saying this is impossible but would like to know what basis the assertion of cultural factors being responsible rather than religion was based on. Of course in order to oppress women it is possible that a literal interpretation of scripture was adopted by those desiring to do so without them actually following religious edict in other areas where it does not suit.

Here is a link arguing the scriptural basis for honour killing within Islam. Some will no doubt dispute this and it may well not be a majority view, but nevertheless it demonstrates where those justifying honour killing may find a basis for their actions.

http://voicesofthefaceless.com/2012/01/31/islam-is-honor-killings-allowed-yes/

[simple1]

Intrepidphil, some of us do read the report. It says this:

According to the researchers, the attitudes are far more likely in adolescent boys with low education backgrounds and it did not appear to be linked to religious beliefs. Instead, the main factors include patriarchal and traditional worldviews, emphasis placed on female 'virtue,' and a more general belief that violence against others is morally justified.

Jordan has a population that includes Druze, Bahai and Christians. The statement that it is not linked to religious beliefs would tend to indicate that other religions were included in the research. It would also indicate that these groups had culturally similar practices.

My question is one that is statistical in nature, since the report has taken religion out of the equation.

I can believe the poll and to some extent the statement that the results are more linked to lack of education and imposition of a patriarcal worldview -

BUT: what formed that patriarcal worldview, if not religious beliefs?

Traditions often develop within a religious group.

As JT said, 92% of Jordan population is Muslim.

I would bet my hat that "patriarcal worldviews" in the region are believed by the people to be strongly associated with religion. An earlier poster mentioned the Sha'ria... I would consider that "tradition".

Separating religion from tradition is a Western thing.

Look what happens in Thailand - all these Buddhists doing so many un-Buddhist things for "good luck", supported by the monks in the temples who even organise the games!

A very good example are the Jews. There are modern Jews, and there are traditionalist Jews. I had some conversations on why the latter would wear those large cake-shaped fur hats and black overalls in the summer, queried them if the Jewish religion required it. They said no, but they chose to follow tradition and tradition is everything to them!

No doubt the next Western claim will be that Sha'Ria has nothing to do with Islam.

I don't think that separating religion from tradition is limited to the west. It's an evolution which has happened quicker in the west but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening elsewhere too. If anything, the report seems to show that education is happening and is the key.

I'm always happy to advise anyone of any religion that maybe they should rethink their life but the fact is that they are entitled to their belief and banging on about "the problem with Islam" isn't going to change a thing. I just don't see Islam as being intrinsically worse than any other religion. The same extreme traditions found in Islam, are written into the Torah and therefore into the Christian religion too. It's modern education that has made them obsolete.

The primary diffence is that within Islam their is no seperation between the State and religious faith. The ongoing issue for Islamic civil society is that Islamic conservative politicians are blocking passing laws to ban the more extreme outcomes such as honour killings, education, emancipation of females, extremist madrassas and so on;, as has happened in places such as Jordon, Pakistan and Afghanistan. You can have as much education as you want, but until the Islamic convervatives are removed from power, their will not be any major differences to the current situation. Also how many decades will it take to transform the culture within tribal structures within many Islamic countries that analyists say is one of the major driving forces for honour killings.

Edited June 22, 2013 by simple1

[Scott]

It has been many years since I studied statistics and this article isn't very clear about how the conclusions were reached.

If the same was primarily or all Muslim, then the differences in those that justify honor killings as opposed to those that do not would have to be directly tied to factors such as education.

[intrepidphil]

Intrepidphil, some of us do read the report. It says this:

According to the researchers, the attitudes are far more likely in adolescent boys with low education backgrounds and it did not appear to be linked to religious beliefs. Instead, the main factors include patriarchal and traditional worldviews, emphasis placed on female 'virtue,' and a more general belief that violence against others is morally justified.

Jordan has a population that includes Druze, Bahai and Christians. The statement that it is not linked to religious beliefs would tend to indicate that other religions were included in the research. It would also indicate that these groups had culturally similar practices.

My question is one that is statistical in nature, since the report has taken religion out of the equation.

I can believe the poll and to some extent the statement that the results are more linked to lack of education and imposition of a patriarcal worldview -

BUT: what formed that patriarcal worldview, if not religious beliefs?

Traditions often develop within a religious group.

As JT said, 92% of Jordan population is Muslim.

I would bet my hat that "patriarcal worldviews" in the region are believed by the people to be strongly associated with religion. An earlier poster mentioned the Sha'ria... I would consider that "tradition".

Separating religion from tradition is a Western thing.

Look what happens in Thailand - all these Buddhists doing so many un-Buddhist things for "good luck", supported by the monks in the temples who even organise the games!

A very good example are the Jews. There are modern Jews, and there are traditionalist Jews. I had some conversations on why the latter would wear those large cake-shaped fur hats and black overalls in the summer, queried them if the Jewish religion required it. They said no, but they chose to follow tradition and tradition is everything to them!

No doubt the next Western claim will be that Sha'Ria has nothing to do with Islam.

I don't think that separating religion from tradition is limited to the west. It's an evolution which has happened quicker in the west but that doesn't mean that it isn't happening elsewhere too. If anything, the report seems to show that education is happening and is the key.

I'm always happy to advise anyone of any religion that maybe they should rethink their life but the fact is that they are entitled to their belief and banging on about "the problem with Islam" isn't going to change a thing. I just don't see Islam as being intrinsically worse than any other religion. The same extreme traditions found in Islam, are written into the Torah and therefore into the Christian religion too. It's modern education that has made them obsolete.

The primary diffence is that within Islam their is no seperation between the State and religious faith. The ongoing issue for Islamic civil society is that Islamic conservative politicians are blocking passing laws to ban the more extreme outcomes such as honour killings, education, emancipation of females, extremist madrassas and so on;, as has happened in places such as Jordon, Pakistan and Afghanistan. You can have as much education as you want, but until the Islamic convervatives are removed from power, their will not be any major differences to the current situation. Also how many decades will it take to transform the culture within tribal structures within many Islamic countries that analyists say is one of the major driving forces for honour killings.

All true but it is the only way ahead. It'll take decades but it will have to happen; so far everything other than the path of education has proved disastrous. Western intervention in those regimes seem to have caused a further rise in militant Islam.

[Jingthing]

Actually, the sum total of the poorly named "Arab Spring" has actually been a big step BACKWARDS, towards much more fundamentalist Islamic-inspired repressive social policies. That was internal, not external. Progress as most westerners see it ... it does not have to happen.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Jingthing

[bina]

actually we have a big problem with honour killings here also: mostly found among beduins, but also among all levels of the arab population and including christian arabs and druze, here, social workers are aware as are lawyers, religious leaders, womens' groups and educators, the pravailing attitude of 'honour' is very very high among the arabic men, and also, surprisingly among north african/eastern jews. (morrocan/yemenite/kafkaz /iraq/syrian jews)

honour killings are tried in a regular state court, and the perpetrators are imprisoned, but are often considered heroes.

there was a very good tv docu made by some european group that interviews women who have had sisters/mothers killed because of honour killings in one israeli arab town.

while it is considered illegal (as murder), there is tacit approval among males that it is neccessary, and while here, u will hear many of the more educated men claiming they are against the killing, the IDEA of FAMILY HONOUR is considered extremely extremely important. and again, not just among the muslem arabs but also among jewish groups such as the kafkaz (caucus), kurdish jews, and other similar groups. obviously, violence among women in these groups is also much higher.

we have a specific problem among our hotel workers in that the women cannot stay at work after a certain hour, cannot work with the men as partners , and we have to arrange 'fun days' during the day and not in the evening so that the women from the villages can participate. among the 'oriental' jews, family honour is also important, but shows itself in more subtle ways nowadays.

we read about such killings almost everyday (usually a little blurb along the lines of : a women from xxxx was murdered by her 17 yrs old brother after they saw her speaking with a strange man in the market' or ' a woman from the village of xxx was murdered after she left her village to study in tel aviv (sin city!)- her uncles found out where she was living, told her her mother was very ill, convinced her to return to her village, where they murderd her.)

lots of these, just all in hebrew.

btw, many of the women in these families condone family honour killings as a 'wayward' woman ruins the chances of good marriages for others in the family.

honour, here , is not seen as a muslem attribute but as a middle easternasian attribute / you can hear many many of the more 'eastern' culture jewish boys making the same remarks about 'my sister's honour', we call it 'kavod hamishpah'...

[antfish]

Let's stick to the topic here.

and it did not appear to be linked to religious beliefs."

From a statistical point of view, it would seem that then they interviewed/questioned people of other religions. I wonder how many and what other religions are included?

let me crack that for you.

they are asking young male muslims if they think honour killings are justified. two third of them say: no, it is not justified, one third say yes, it is.

could be now concluded that what makes the difference here is their religion?

[intrepidphil]

actually we have a big problem with honour killings here also: mostly found among beduins, but also among all levels of the arab population and including christian arabs and druze, here, social workers are aware as are lawyers, religious leaders, womens' groups and educators, the pravailing attitude of 'honour' is very very high among the arabic men, and also, surprisingly among north african/eastern jews. (morrocan/yemenite/kafkaz /iraq/syrian jews)

honour killings are tried in a regular state court, and the perpetrators are imprisoned, but are often considered heroes.

there was a very good tv docu made by some european group that interviews women who have had sisters/mothers killed because of honour killings in one israeli arab town.

while it is considered illegal (as murder), there is tacit approval among males that it is neccessary, and while here, u will hear many of the more educated men claiming they are against the killing, the IDEA of FAMILY HONOUR is considered extremely extremely important. and again, not just among the muslem arabs but also among jewish groups such as the kafkaz (caucus), kurdish jews, and other similar groups. obviously, violence among women in these groups is also much higher.

we have a specific problem among our hotel workers in that the women cannot stay at work after a certain hour, cannot work with the men as partners , and we have to arrange 'fun days' during the day and not in the evening so that the women from the villages can participate. among the 'oriental' jews, family honour is also important, but shows itself in more subtle ways nowadays.

we read about such killings almost everyday (usually a little blurb along the lines of : a women from xxxx was murdered by her 17 yrs old brother after they saw her speaking with a strange man in the market' or ' a woman from the village of xxx was murdered after she left her village to study in tel aviv (sin city!)- her uncles found out where she was living, told her her mother was very ill, convinced her to return to her village, where they murderd her.)

lots of these, just all in hebrew.

btw, many of the women in these families condone family honour killings as a 'wayward' woman ruins the chances of good marriages for others in the family.

honour, here , is not seen as a muslem attribute but as a middle easternasian attribute / you can hear many many of the more 'eastern' culture jewish boys making the same remarks about 'my sister's honour', we call it 'kavod hamishpah'...

I've also heard that some of the female suicide bombers, a few years back, were given this way out as an only option. After disgracing themselves they could restore their honour and the families social standing.

[antfish]

Hindu or India . . . Another great champion of and ptotector of wonen's rights so both cultures suck I'm that respect. Is there any wonder why a culture fostering such a mentality or thought process can be viewed as an nothing more than an abscess on the world's butt.

Honor anything to these people is just a ruse to exercise dominance of and oppress women . Sounds like insecure males to me looking to rationalize or justify severe domestic abuse which no human should ever be able to justify.

Funny how we whine about government monitoring our Google usage, but care little about women getting beat, acid burned, mutilated or killed because of jealous, insecure wanna be men and a culture condoning such actions.

Sadly females are also often involved with honour killings.

Whilst their are different causes, but for sure jealousy & insecurety would be a components, from a quick search both the US & UK (as examples) domestic violence is increasing. e.g. UK domestic violence increased by 35% 2010/2011 even though their are numerous publicity campaigns and government sponsored programs. In the US more than 1500 men & women murdered in one year (2005) as an outcome of domestic violence

No matter what is the cause, if a drunken atheist coming home and beat up his wife or if a hindu man justifies his beating with some code of honor. both cases of violence are equally ugly and to condemn.

and we should not let the racist hijack this issue.

[transam]

Religion again . When will folk wake up and live their own life instead of killing for something written that has never been proved as coming from nowhere except planet earth.

[intrepidphil]

@F430murci

Your post#25. I already highlighted the detail under Sharia law that talks to it being permitable to kill an unfaithful partner (Post#5) so no attempt by me to deny or minimise. I referenced the death rate in the US, as an example, that even though society condemns domestic violence, although from reports different motivations, but infidelity would be one. it is not uncommon for killing of a male/female partner and it is not solely an issue in Muslim societies, that you try to infer; same for Hindus.

You might be interested to note that in Russia, currently 14,000 die from injuries inflicted by husbands or partners a year. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21474931

Sharia law is a serious issue that needs to be dealt with but it isn't a stand alone example as westerners are happy to believe. The only difference is that in Islam it is still enforced. Here's the Judeo/Christian unenforced law (it is still the law) - Deuteronomy 22:21:

"The woman must be taken to the door of her father's home, and there the men of the town must stone her to death, for she has committed a disgraceful crime in Israel by being promiscuous while living in her parents' home. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you". Love you all, have a nice day, GOD!!! (and Jesus).

[Scott]

A troll post and reply have been deleted. Please stay on topic.

[antfish]

Religion again . When will folk wake up and live their own life instead of killing for something written that has never been proved as coming from nowhere except planet earth.

did you read the article?

A key finding of the study is that support for honor crimes was not connected to religious beliefs.

[transam]

Religion again . When will folk wake up and live their own life instead of killing for something written that has never been proved as coming from nowhere except planet earth.

did you read the article?

A key finding of the study is that support for honor crimes was not connected to religious beliefs.

You believe that ?

[Jingthing]

Anyway, it's clear to me that the overwhelming sentiment here is that such things as honor killings are horrible evils in the world and are something to be targeted as things that merit social changes. But obviously these changes have to happen WITHIN the countries where the honor killings are prevalent. In some countries today, simply fighting for these kinds of positive changes can put your life in danger.

Edited June 22, 2013 by Jingthing

[intrepidphil]

What are the 'oriental' jews? Jews from Israel?

No.

(those of African or Asian origin)

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-6712.html

Sorry but no. There was a small sect of Oriental Jews found about 10 years back in China but this has no relation to them. African origin Jews are referred to as African Jews and Asian Origin (apart from the Indians) are referred to as Mizrachim (Easterners). I'd love to know who the Oriental Jews are.

[Scott]

Let's discuss the issue of Oriental Jews in a different thread. It's off-topic here.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies have been deleted.

[7by7]

I see that the "some Muslims are bad, therefore all Muslims are bad" brigade are in full force here.

Despite the article stating that the research found that religion did not play a part, the brigade are saying that it is because they are Muslim.

Yes, it is probably true that most so called honour killings in Jordan are carried out by Muslims on Muslims; simply because the majority of people living in Jordan are Muslim!

As bina, who actually lives in the region, has pointed out; it is not just Muslims who carry out such killings in the Middle East.

As has also been pointed out, worldwide it is not just Muslims who carry out such killings.

As has also been pointed out, the country with the highest Muslim population in the world, Indonesia, has very few of these killings.

This appalling crime, and all so called honour based violence, is not a Muslim thing; it's a cultural thing and, as the reports findings show, religion plays no part in it.

Not that facts have ever been of any interest to the brigade.

[transam]

I see that the "some Muslims are bad, therefore all Muslims are bad" brigade are in full force here.

Despite the article stating that the research found that religion did not play a part, the brigade are saying that it is because they are Muslim.

Yes, it is probably true that most so called honour killings in Jordan are carried out by Muslims on Muslims; simply because the majority of people living in Jordan are Muslim!

As bina, who actually lives in the region, has pointed out; it is not just Muslims who carry out such killings in the Middle East.

As has also been pointed out, worldwide it is not just Muslims who carry out such killings.

As has also been pointed out, the country with the highest Muslim population in the world, Indonesia, has very few of these killings.

This appalling crime, and all so called honour based violence, is not a Muslim thing; it's a cultural thing and, as the reports findings show, religion plays no part in it.

Not that facts have ever been of any interest to the brigade.

As you are our religion expert are you saying the tradition of topping girls is not religion based ?

[7by7]

I would not use the highly misogynist and disrespectful term 'topping girls' to describe such an horrific crime!

If you had actually read the article, you would have seen that it is not I who is saying religion plays no part in honour killings; it is the report.

Very little research has thrown up this excellent article on the subject.

In Theory: Are honor killings cultural or religious?

It concludes

The horrific actions of the convicted Afghani murderers in Canada were motivated by a misogynist view that devalues and belittles women, derived from socio-cultural factors that they imported from their home country and justified by a distorted and erroneous understanding of Islam.

Muslims leaders today must unequivocally reject this distortion of Islam that is used to violate the most basic Islamic rights of human decency and justice. There is no excuse for the Muslim community to turn a blind eye to the horrible injustices committed in honor killings.

Although special-interest groups in our society make it their preoccupation to perpetuate the bigotry of Islamophobia, confronting the problem of honor killings and the underlying attitude that pervades all forms of discrimination toward women in Muslim communities must be met head-on. Muslim leaders can provide an important example to their followers by taking an explicit stand against behavior that is in direct violation of Islam. At the same time, attention must be paid to meeting basic human needs, and to solving problems stemming from poverty and illiteracy that are often the contributing factors that make women the scapegoats of severe socio-economic problems.

Edited June 22, 2013 by 7by7