Dengue fever

[Thakkar]

WOW, slam that fraudulent pumper who is peddling bogus remedies.

What a reaction!!!

What I presented is an honest reflection/memory of what occured to me, step by step, and my thoughts/experiences along the way. I thought it may help someone who experienced similar symptoms. Nothing was exagerated, nothing misleading was intended nor stated. I assumed (bad word I know) I had dengue because so many others were getting it and once the symptoms began I spent several hours on the internet researching dengue fever which fit my situation. Also the recent increase in the number of mosquitos in our house from the standing water under the plants seemed an obvious connection.

I think what got some people's backs up here was my point that we should take more responsibility for our health by learning to listen to our body as it will tell us what it needs and does not need.

Yes I believe in natural remedies and have since a teenager. Back in Canada where we have fully paid health care, "natural medicine practitioners" are not only NOT covered (you have to pay out of pocket), they are actively and continually being attacked by Big Pharma who see Naturopathic Medicine and Practitioners as a threat to their monopoly over health care and their "legal" drug industry. I used Naturopathic Doctors for my own health needs and advice whenever practical and paid "out of pocket" even tho many times money was tight. Most Pharma Drugs are patented chemical copies of various plant ingredients - which can not be patented in their natural form, some reading...

http://publications.nigms.nih.gov/medbydesign/chapter3.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-weil-md/why-plants-are-usually-be_b_785139.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_product

Anyway, to each his/her own. I believe in taking responsibility for my own health and encourage others to do the same. I do use mainstream doctors and hospitals where practical ie: lab tests, Xrays, mending broken bones, surgery when necessary, etc. However, unless an emergency I first try and see what I can do on my own via proper diet and lifestyle changes and natural herbs when available.

Back to the criticism, or rather back to responding to various attacks on my ethical character. I am curious as to which part(s) of my post offended you? Please quote them as I wrote them instead of viscious attacks of a general nature.

wow

Doug

The greed (or otherwise) of Big Pharma doesn't negate the fact that their products have gone through rigorous testing over years (sometimes decades), have been retested in various countries, tried and endorsed by trained medical professionals and that they work.

Yes, it is important to listen to our bodies. It is more important to listen to our brains, specifically to the pre frontal cortex.

T

[AngelsLariat]

I got dengue approx a year ago. A mild case compared to most, only lasted a week. My fault, I had some standing water under plants in the house and I did notice mosquitos around. Here are my symptoms as I remember them:

- early evening I started feeling a bit punk, not sick, just "off". I normally sip on beer in the evenings and have the odd shot of straight scotch now and again. That evening I could not stand the idea of drinking beer at all, I just had a few sips of scotch and went to bed fairly early.

- next morning I felt like shit. My gf was worried but I told her to go to work, I was fine, I did not want any company, just to be left alone. By 10am I was stuck on the toilet sweating bullets from all parts my body. I was stuck on the toilet for about 3 hours, and the bathroom floor around me was totally soaked, I could not move, body was burning up like an oven set on HIGH. I wanted a thermometer to check cause I was sure my high temp would blow it off the end, no thermometer tho. Bowels were just passing water, explosively (this continued for the next 3 days).

- for 3 days I had no desire whatsoever for any food. I only drank water, a lot of water. My eyes could not stand bright lights or even being outdoors in the daylight (this sensitivity to bright lights lasted for almost a week). Minor aches and headaches, chills and sweats off and on, I slept a lot.

- afternoon of 3rd day I started to sip on some mild tea, progressed to soup broth, 4th day started eating small amounts of food as symptoms were rapidly diminishing, by day 7 I was not only fine but I felt better than I have in years, let me explain...

I have had sensitive/loose bowels (mild case) for the past few (~6) years, and a mild case of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidiasis that has persisted for at least 8 years which is likely what caused the bowel symptoms. When I was sitting on the toilet for 3 hours I got the strong impression that the extremely high temperature my body was experiencing was burning off the candida (yeast) in my bowels. I refused all medication my gf brought me and stuck with my high intake water flush and hoped that I was right about my high temp burning off the candida and the water flushing it out of my system. After 3 days I also drank quite a bit of my gf's Bai-Ya-Nang juice she makes fresh daily, that could have helped my quick recovery, no way of proving that tho.

I was right!

From day 7 to now (+ 1 year later) my body has not felt this good for at least 10 years if not longer. Normal bowels (90% of the time) and I feel great. I am 65yo.

Sometimes there is a hidden gem in what on the surface would seem to be a negative experience. Let your body do the talking and learn to listen to it is the message I got from that experience. Life's obstacles often carry hidden opportunities if approached properly. IE: My gf got cancer 5 years ago. Her response was a total change of lifestyle and thru intensive Thai herb research a new natural herbal juice business that has helped her and many other people.

Doug

Reminds me of the time I had sex without protection. I told my gf to stand on her head for five minutes to avoid pregnancy. It worked!

T

Big Pharma is conspiring to block that treatment option also.

[harrry]

I got dengue approx a year ago. A mild case compared to most, only lasted a week. My fault, I had some standing water under plants in the house and I did notice mosquitos around. Here are my symptoms as I remember them:

- early evening I started feeling a bit punk, not sick, just "off". I normally sip on beer in the evenings and have the odd shot of straight scotch now and again. That evening I could not stand the idea of drinking beer at all, I just had a few sips of scotch and went to bed fairly early.

- next morning I felt like shit. My gf was worried but I told her to go to work, I was fine, I did not want any company, just to be left alone. By 10am I was stuck on the toilet sweating bullets from all parts my body. I was stuck on the toilet for about 3 hours, and the bathroom floor around me was totally soaked, I could not move, body was burning up like an oven set on HIGH. I wanted a thermometer to check cause I was sure my high temp would blow it off the end, no thermometer tho. Bowels were just passing water, explosively (this continued for the next 3 days).

- for 3 days I had no desire whatsoever for any food. I only drank water, a lot of water. My eyes could not stand bright lights or even being outdoors in the daylight (this sensitivity to bright lights lasted for almost a week). Minor aches and headaches, chills and sweats off and on, I slept a lot.

- afternoon of 3rd day I started to sip on some mild tea, progressed to soup broth, 4th day started eating small amounts of food as symptoms were rapidly diminishing, by day 7 I was not only fine but I felt better than I have in years, let me explain...

I have had sensitive/loose bowels (mild case) for the past few (~6) years, and a mild case of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidiasis that has persisted for at least 8 years which is likely what caused the bowel symptoms. When I was sitting on the toilet for 3 hours I got the strong impression that the extremely high temperature my body was experiencing was burning off the candida (yeast) in my bowels. I refused all medication my gf brought me and stuck with my high intake water flush and hoped that I was right about my high temp burning off the candida and the water flushing it out of my system. After 3 days I also drank quite a bit of my gf's Bai-Ya-Nang juice she makes fresh daily, that could have helped my quick recovery, no way of proving that tho.

I was right!

From day 7 to now (+ 1 year later) my body has not felt this good for at least 10 years if not longer. Normal bowels (90% of the time) and I feel great. I am 65yo.

Sometimes there is a hidden gem in what on the surface would seem to be a negative experience. Let your body do the talking and learn to listen to it is the message I got from that experience. Life's obstacles often carry hidden opportunities if approached properly. IE: My gf got cancer 5 years ago. Her response was a total change of lifestyle and thru intensive Thai herb research a new natural herbal juice business that has helped her and many other people.

Doug

Reminds me of the time I had sex without protection. I told my gf to stand on her head for five minutes to avoid pregnancy. It worked!

T

Big Pharma is conspiring to block that treatment option also.

I always hang garlic at the door to stop tigers. Have not seen a tiger in the house for years.

[AngelsLariat]

I got dengue approx a year ago. A mild case compared to most, only lasted a week. My fault, I had some standing water under plants in the house and I did notice mosquitos around. Here are my symptoms as I remember them:

- early evening I started feeling a bit punk, not sick, just "off". I normally sip on beer in the evenings and have the odd shot of straight scotch now and again. That evening I could not stand the idea of drinking beer at all, I just had a few sips of scotch and went to bed fairly early.

- next morning I felt like shit. My gf was worried but I told her to go to work, I was fine, I did not want any company, just to be left alone. By 10am I was stuck on the toilet sweating bullets from all parts my body. I was stuck on the toilet for about 3 hours, and the bathroom floor around me was totally soaked, I could not move, body was burning up like an oven set on HIGH. I wanted a thermometer to check cause I was sure my high temp would blow it off the end, no thermometer tho. Bowels were just passing water, explosively (this continued for the next 3 days).

- for 3 days I had no desire whatsoever for any food. I only drank water, a lot of water. My eyes could not stand bright lights or even being outdoors in the daylight (this sensitivity to bright lights lasted for almost a week). Minor aches and headaches, chills and sweats off and on, I slept a lot.

- afternoon of 3rd day I started to sip on some mild tea, progressed to soup broth, 4th day started eating small amounts of food as symptoms were rapidly diminishing, by day 7 I was not only fine but I felt better than I have in years, let me explain...

I have had sensitive/loose bowels (mild case) for the past few (~6) years, and a mild case of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidiasis that has persisted for at least 8 years which is likely what caused the bowel symptoms. When I was sitting on the toilet for 3 hours I got the strong impression that the extremely high temperature my body was experiencing was burning off the candida (yeast) in my bowels. I refused all medication my gf brought me and stuck with my high intake water flush and hoped that I was right about my high temp burning off the candida and the water flushing it out of my system. After 3 days I also drank quite a bit of my gf's Bai-Ya-Nang juice she makes fresh daily, that could have helped my quick recovery, no way of proving that tho.

I was right!

From day 7 to now (+ 1 year later) my body has not felt this good for at least 10 years if not longer. Normal bowels (90% of the time) and I feel great. I am 65yo.

Sometimes there is a hidden gem in what on the surface would seem to be a negative experience. Let your body do the talking and learn to listen to it is the message I got from that experience. Life's obstacles often carry hidden opportunities if approached properly. IE: My gf got cancer 5 years ago. Her response was a total change of lifestyle and thru intensive Thai herb research a new natural herbal juice business that has helped her and many other people.

Doug

Reminds me of the time I had sex without protection. I told my gf to stand on her head for five minutes to avoid pregnancy. It worked!

T

Big Pharma is conspiring to block that treatment option also.

I always hang garlic at the door to stop tigers. Have not seen a tiger in the house for years.

Tigers these days are pussies.

[AngelsLariat]

Yes, it is important to listen to our bodies. It is more important to listen to our brains, specifically to the pre frontal cortex.

T

The whole "listen to your body" thing might be reasonable advice when training for a marathon but the fallacy is that when people try to self-diagnosis medical conditions they are wrong more often than they are right. And that's true even for trained herbalists.

Edited July 3, 2013 by AngelsLariat

[uptheos]

Reminds me of the time I had sex without protection. I told my gf to stand on her head for five minutes to avoid pregnancy. It worked!

T

Was that before, during of after?

[FolkGuitar]

I had a case of dengue with mild flu-like symptoms, was tested positive, felt almost completely better after a week, and I have the data to prove it. While it's always possible that there are some people in this thread that incorrectly thought that they had dengue, you claimed that if someone was sick for only a week that it wasn't dengue that they had. That's just incorrect - they may or may not have had dengue but getting better after a week does not prove nor disprove it.

Let me get this straight, so that there's no misunderstanding... You had 'mild' flue symptoms, but had a blood test done? I see...

you claimed that if someone was sick for only a week that it wasn't dengue

I keep re-reading my post but I can't find that I claimed much of anything. But as I said, how about we just agree to disagree? Unless you feel the need to get in the last word. That's OK by me.

[AngelsLariat]

I had a case of dengue with mild flu-like symptoms, was tested positive, felt almost completely better after a week, and I have the data to prove it. While it's always possible that there are some people in this thread that incorrectly thought that they had dengue, you claimed that if someone was sick for only a week that it wasn't dengue that they had. That's just incorrect - they may or may not have had dengue but getting better after a week does not prove nor disprove it.

Let me get this straight, so that there's no misunderstanding... You had 'mild' flue symptoms, but had a blood test done? I see...

you claimed that if someone was sick for only a week that it wasn't dengue

I keep re-reading my post but I can't find that I claimed much of anything. But as I said, how about we just agree to disagree? Unless you feel the need to get in the last word. That's OK by me.

Yes, in fact I had blood tests for 5 days in a row. Was diagnosed positive and then until the 5th day (which I think was the 8th day after the onset of symptoms) my platelet count dropped each day until suddenly reversing. The treatment that I was given consisted of saline solution administered by IV into my hand and various pills. If you would like to review the medical data, you are welcome to it. it was enough to satisfy my insurance company, but frankly I would not surprised that experts such on TV would know better.

And definitely you said that if someone was recovered within a week then they didn't have dengue. Maybe you are a very enlightened person, but you are wrong about that.

Posted Today, 10:08

ThaiHerbs, on 02 Jul 2013 - 12:48, said:

I got dengue approx a year ago. A mild case compared to most, only lasted a week.

There is no 'mild case of Dengue.' If you were over it in a week, it wasn't Dengue.

Reminds me of the girl who said she was 'slightly pregnant?'

Edited July 3, 2013 by AngelsLariat

[AngelsLariat]

Reminds me of the time I had sex without protection. I told my gf to stand on her head for five minutes to avoid pregnancy. It worked!

T

Was that before, during of after?

It had to be afterwards, otherwise he wouldn't have worked unless he combined it with wheat grass juice and crystal therapy.

[tropico]

You seem to be making a distinction between a mild case of dengue and a case of dengue symptoms with mild symptoms. What's the difference? If two different people both test positive for dengue but yet the severity of symptoms is vastly different, is not one of those dengue cases more severe than the other?

The difference is, as I believe you yourself pointed out, the words "test positive for Dengue." How many, who have stated that they had a 'mild case' actually were tested with laboratory blood work-ups? There are several diseases that present similar symptoms, and only a blood test can determine which disease is the causative factor.

I tested positive for dengue and had very mild symptoms. Fever no more than 38.5C, mild head ache, and back pain. After 6 days from infection I recovered almost completely. Compared to many other people's symptoms, this is called very mild.

[uptheos]

Quote AngelsLariat: "Tigers these days are pussies".

I haven't seen many of those lately either and I don't hang garlic on the door.

[Sheryl]

An off topic post has been removed. Please stick to the topic, which is dengue fever, not a debate about the pros and cons of modern medicine. "Big Pharma" (sic) does not market anything for that condition.

[chiang mai]

An off topic post has been removed. Please stick to the topic, which is dengue fever, not a debate about the pros and cons of modern medicine. "Big Pharma" (sic) does not market anything for that condition.

The question appears to be whether herbal remedy solutions and similar do?

[dickyknee]

I assumed (bad word I know) I had dengue because so many others were getting it and once the symptoms began I spent several hours on the internet researching dengue fever which fit my situation.

I find it curious to know where you did your internet research, as you stated your symptoms were "Minor aches and headaches"

dengue is also called "breakbone fever" because of the symptoms.

[FolkGuitar]

An off topic post has been removed. Please stick to the topic, which is dengue fever, not a debate about the pros and cons of modern medicine. "Big Pharma" (sic) does not market anything for that condition.

... which certainly makes me wonder about people's comments that they were given 'various pills' for Dengue. But I'm no doctor. I only play one on TV.

[FolkGuitar]

You seem to be making a distinction between a mild case of dengue and a case of dengue symptoms with mild symptoms. What's the difference? If two different people both test positive for dengue but yet the severity of symptoms is vastly different, is not one of those dengue cases more severe than the other?

The difference is, as I believe you yourself pointed out, the words "test positive for Dengue." How many, who have stated that they had a 'mild case' actually were tested with laboratory blood work-ups? There are several diseases that present similar symptoms, and only a blood test can determine which disease is the causative factor.

I tested positive for dengue and had very mild symptoms. Fever no more than 38.5C, mild head ache, and back pain. After 6 days from infection I recovered almost completely. Compared to many other people's symptoms, this is called very mild.

I'm glad to know that you made a full recovery. And that you avoided what so many have had to endure.

[Sheryl]

People are typically given paracetemol for the fever and sometimes other painkillers if the para alone isn't enough for the pain (in a bad case, it won't be).

If it's not certain initially that it is dengue, many Thai docs would also given an antibiotic although this is not really appropriate. (Tend to overuse abx here).

And -- speaking as a health professional -- there are indeed "mild" as well as severe cases of dengue just as there are of all other diseases. "Mild" does not mean partially having the infection, it refers to the severity of the clinical symptoms. Which vary all over the map.

[AngelsLariat]

An off topic post has been removed. Please stick to the topic, which is dengue fever, not a debate about the pros and cons of modern medicine. "Big Pharma" (sic) does not market anything for that condition.

Quote AngelsLariat: "Tigers these days are pussies".

I haven't seen many of those lately either and I don't hang garlic on the door.

Just a few years ago, whenever I went into a new expat bar there was bound to be a tiger under the pool table keeping newcomers at bay. Now, if the joint doesn't have a toothless bulldog looking Brit sitting at the bar staring down newcomers, almost anyone can get in. Your can credit that to big Pharma if you want, but I'm pretty sure that it's herbalists and faith healers that we have to thank for our improved safety.

[chiang mai]

An off topic post has been removed. Please stick to the topic, which is dengue fever, not a debate about the pros and cons of modern medicine. "Big Pharma" (sic) does not market anything for that condition.

The question appears to be whether herbal remedy solutions and similar do?

Bump.

[AngelsLariat]

An off topic post has been removed. Please stick to the topic, which is dengue fever, not a debate about the pros and cons of modern medicine. "Big Pharma" (sic) does not market anything for that condition.

... which certainly makes me wonder about people's comments that they were given 'various pills' for Dengue. But I'm no doctor. I only play one on TV.

No, you're not a doctor, but for some reason your are obstinate in your belief that I am lying. The various pills were things aimed at symptoms such as fever, diarrhea, etc. None were claimed to be a cure for dengue per se. The doctors' strategy was to manage the symptoms -- saline IV for dehydration, Ibubuferen for fever, the local equivalent of pepto bismol for diarrhea, etc. Despite your insinuations, I don't believe for a second that my case was unusual nor that you have any knowledge that justifies your extreme rudeness.

Edited July 3, 2013 by AngelsLariat

[Sheryl]

There is no herbal or other remedy shown to "cure" dengue.

There have been some reports if possible benefit from papaya leaf extract for people whose platlet counts are low (a minority of dengue cases) but these are very limited. Only study published in a peer reviewed journal had a sample size of 1 -- ONE -- case. Enough to conclude it is worth studying, no more than that. And it did not show a "cure", just an improvement in the platlet count.

But I think no harm in drinking papaya leaf extract if you want to. It won't speed up the cure but it is possible it will help avert or mitigate a drop in platlet count...which as mentioned, does not happen to the majority of people (and especially not foreigners) with dengue anyway.

I do think that the level of hysteria around this is a bit out of proportion. In most Western countries there are regular outbreaks of influenza which is also miserable to have and can be fatal for some people.In Thailand, this seldom occurs, but you do get dengue outbreaks.

The case fatality rate for simple dengue is 0. For properly managed hemorrhagic dengue (in itself a small minority of total dengue cases) , it is under 1%.

It's certainly no fun, but it is not something to get panicked about.

[Sheryl]

An off topic post has been removed. Please stick to the topic, which is dengue fever, not a debate about the pros and cons of modern medicine. "Big Pharma" (sic) does not market anything for that condition.

... which certainly makes me wonder about people's comments that they were given 'various pills' for Dengue. But I'm no doctor. I only play one on TV.

No, you're not a doctor, but for some reason your are obstinate in your belief that I am lying. The various pills were things aimed at symptoms such as fever, diarrhea, etc. None were claimed to be a cure for dengue per se. The doctors' strategy was to manage the symptoms -- saline IV for dehydration, Ibubuferen for fever, the local equivalent of pepto bismol for diarrhea, etc. Despite your insinuations, I don't believe for a second that my case was unusual nor that you have any knowledge that justifies your extreme rudeness.

OK guys, cool it please. No need to get personal.

BYW FolkGuitar I trust you are mistaken re ibuprofen, which is contraindicated in dengue. Normally they use paracetemol and any Thai doctor will know this.

[AngelsLariat]

An off topic post has been removed. Please stick to the topic, which is dengue fever, not a debate about the pros and cons of modern medicine. "Big Pharma" (sic) does not market anything for that condition.

... which certainly makes me wonder about people's comments that they were given 'various pills' for Dengue. But I'm no doctor. I only play one on TV.

No, you're not a doctor, but for some reason your are obstinate in your belief that I am lying. The various pills were things aimed at symptoms such as fever, diarrhea, etc. None were claimed to be a cure for dengue per se. The doctors' strategy was to manage the symptoms -- saline IV for dehydration, Ibubuferen for fever, the local equivalent of pepto bismol for diarrhea, etc. Despite your insinuations, I don't believe for a second that my case was unusual nor that you have any knowledge that justifies your extreme rudeness.

OK guys, cool it please. No need to get personal.

BYW FolkGuitar I trust you are mistaken re ibuprofen, which is contraindicated in dengue. Normally they use paracetemol and any Thai doctor will know this.

It might have been paracetamol rather than ibuprofen. I'm not sure that I know the difference between those two. My doctor at CM Ram seemed to know what he was doing in this case - he told me from the beginning that he expected the case to last for about 7 days and went as far as making a hand-drawn graph for me of my expected platelet count vs the number of days since the onset of symptoms. He was remarkably accurate, and since this was so well known to him I'm wondering why it is controversial to state here that the disease passing within a about a week, with a sudden improvement after day 7, is common.

[FolkGuitar]

An off topic post has been removed. Please stick to the topic, which is dengue fever, not a debate about the pros and cons of modern medicine. "Big Pharma" (sic) does not market anything for that condition.

... which certainly makes me wonder about people's comments that they were given 'various pills' for Dengue. But I'm no doctor. I only play one on TV.

No, you're not a doctor, but for some reason your are obstinate in your belief that I am lying. The various pills were things aimed at symptoms such as fever, diarrhea, etc. None were claimed to be a cure for dengue per se. The doctors' strategy was to manage the symptoms -- saline IV for dehydration, Ibubuferen for fever, the local equivalent of pepto bismol for diarrhea, etc. Despite your insinuations, I don't believe for a second that my case was unusual nor that you have any knowledge that justifies your extreme rudeness.

OK guys, cool it please. No need to get personal.

BYW FolkGuitar I trust you are mistaken re ibuprofen, which is contraindicated in dengue. Normally they use paracetemol and any Thai doctor will know this.

Please forgive me, but "I" never said anything about ibuprofen! That was the other guy, the one who is telling us about his brief encounter with the 'mild case' of Dengue Fever... that required a saline IV for dehydration.

[partington]

[

Let me understand this, a herbal cure is suggested by a forum sponsor as being benefical in the treatment of Dengue and you accept this and support it with a study of one as being something that is worthy of more research. Yet a thread that reports on a study of 1.5 million statin users and the implications of statins on diabetes , the results of which are published in the BMJ, is deemed to be inappropariate, You know, it's actually quite hard to understand wjust what the rules are here because they don't seem to follow what's written and they certainly don't follow any logic.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-05-statin-linked-diabetes.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/641752-statins-increases-risk-of-diabetes/

You quoted the Daily Mail in your post about statins and diabetes risk. Seriously. it has been made very clear in the rules that when citing a scientific study showing some effect or other, you cannot use reports in the popular press because the popular press is not a reliable source of scientific information,

The Daily Mail, although reporting a study published in the BMJ, reported the results and conclusions of that study completely wrongly and inaccurately. In other words the Daily Mail reported conclusions that were BS. This is because newspaper reporters don't know science, and also have a vested interest in trying to write a sensational headline.

It is really not at ALL uncommon for a newspaper to report OPPOSITE findings to what a scientific paper actually says. This is why scientists learn what's been done by reading the scientific papers and NOT newspapers, and why in this forum, if you want to inform readers of scientific discoveries, you must use references to the original scientific work, and not yellow journalism.

Finally, I myself pointed out very clearly in the diabetes and statins thread what the ACTUAL results in that paper were, and how the Daily Mail misrepresented them. You have ignored this.

[ if you are interested in what the misreport was, read on. If not, ignore the rest of this post.

The Daily Mail said "statins increase your risk of developing diabetes"!

What the BMJ paper ACTUALLY said was: if you take statin "X" you are protected from developing diabetes compared to people not taking any statin at all, that is you have less chance of developing diabetes than the normal population. But if you take statins "Y" or "Z" this protection does not occur, so you have a greater chance of developing diabetes than people taking statin "X". On statins "Y" and "Z" you do NOT have a significantly greater chance of developing diabetes than people not taking stains at all.

So the Daily Mail headline should have read: "Statin X protects you from diabetes, but statins Y and Z don't."

This however is not exciting to read nor does it scare people, so of course was not reported like that. ]

[chiang mai]

[

Let me understand this, a herbal cure is suggested by a forum sponsor as being benefical in the treatment of Dengue and you accept this and support it with a study of one as being something that is worthy of more research. Yet a thread that reports on a study of 1.5 million statin users and the implications of statins on diabetes , the results of which are published in the BMJ, is deemed to be inappropariate, You know, it's actually quite hard to understand wjust what the rules are here because they don't seem to follow what's written and they certainly don't follow any logic.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-05-statin-linked-diabetes.html

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/641752-statins-increases-risk-of-diabetes/

You quoted the Daily Mail in your post about statins and diabetes risk. Seriously. it has been made very clear in the rules that when citing a scientific study showing some effect or other, you cannot use reports in the popular press because the popular press is not a reliable source of scientific information,

The Daily Mail, although reporting a study published in the BMJ, reported the results and conclusions of that study completely wrongly and inaccurately. In other words the Daily Mail reported conclusions that were BS. This is because newspaper reporters don't know science, and also have a vested interest in trying to write a sensational headline.

It is really not at ALL uncommon for a newspaper to report OPPOSITE findings to what a scientific paper actually says. This is why scientists learn what's been done by reading the scientific papers and NOT newspapers, and why in this forum, if you want to inform readers of scientific discoveries, you must use references to the original scientific work, and not yellow journalism.

Finally, I myself pointed out very clearly in the diabetes and statins thread what the ACTUAL results in that paper were, and how the Daily Mail misrepresented them. You have ignored this.

[ if you are interested in what the misreport was, read on. If not, ignore the rest of this post.

The Daily Mail said "statins increase your risk of developing diabetes"!

What the BMJ paper ACTUALLY said was: if you take statin "X" you are protected from developing diabetes compared to people not taking any statin at all, that is you have less chance of developing diabetes than the normal population. But if you take statins "Y" or "Z" this protection does not occur, so you have a greater chance of developing diabetes than people taking statin "X". On statins "Y" and "Z" you do NOT have a significantly greater chance of developing diabetes than people not taking stains at all.

So the Daily Mail headline should have read: "Statin X protects you from diabetes, but statins Y and Z don't."

This however is not exciting to read nor does it scare people, so of course was not reported like that. ]

You have been selective in your extracts on this subject, the part of that topic that I found particularly useful was :

"Patients treated with atorvastatin had a 22 per cent increased risk of new-onset diabetes, rosuvastatin an 18 per cent increased risk and simvastatin a 10 per cent increased risk, relative to pravastatin. In contrast, patients treated with fluvastatin were at a five per cent lower risk and lovastatin a one per cent decreased risk".

The benefit of the articles/study seems to be in the choice of statin rather than whether to take statins or not, that was the intended message at the outset. So whilst in that particular case I was remiss by initially using the Daily Mail article as an initial point of reference, the real medical value of the topic did in fact come out some posts on and that was made obvious. Spo the intent was not to mislead in any shape or form but to inform, unlike the current topic which seems to both mislead without the benefit of trying to usefully inform.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, TV CM Friends,

There are other threads on TV where Dengue has been very thoroughly discussed, recently, like: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/643839-thai-public-health-min-dengue-fever-situation-worrisome/#entry6468501 : that thread has many posts that include citations to legitimate scientific research, and epidemiology.

On that thread, Khun IrwinFC was kind enough to point out an error in my post cited above: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/643839-thai-public-health-min-dengue-fever-situation-worrisome/page-2#entry6468868

And, in thanking Khun IrwinFC for his correction, I mention one other aspect of Dengue I think worth thinking about: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/643839-thai-public-health-min-dengue-fever-situation-worrisome/page-3#entry6470041

As Sheryl, and others, have pointed out, "having" Dengue is kind of a "binary" thing: it is diagnosed reliably by monitoring blood-platelet counts over the days of the acute symptoms.

I question the conviction of anyone who believes they had Dengue, but did not get blood-platelet monitoring. If the platelet count drops enough, you are in grave danger of entering the acute hemorrhagic-fever phase, which can be deadly, and may require blood transfusions. Of course, some people just don't know what they have until they are literally falling down weak; I've personally taken someone to the hospital many years ago who lived in the guest-house I lived in, and was, obviously, to me, suffering from Dengue: he wasn't stupid, just uninformed, and thought he had some virus he'd just "get over."

Another, imho, "missing ingredient" in the confab: severity of acute symptoms, progression into hemorrhagic phase, and recuperation period can all be radically affected by age (children, and the aged, are much more vulnerable), by immune-system suppression or dysfunction (because of HIV, or other infections, because of prior treatment for cancer, because of side-effects of medications for chronic diseases). Young children are particularly at risk !

Sadly, many years ago, I was witness to the death of lovely, tiny three year-old girl, child of a household mae baan, where I was living, from Dengue. She was in McCormick and they could not keep her hydrated ... they said. That was heart-breaking.

Situational factors, like the extent to which the person with Dengue stays hydrated, also directly affect the experienced reality, and potential toxicity. If there's anything important to do while having acute Dengue, and in the recovery phase, it is to stay fully hydrated, and that may well require IV !

The acute symptoms do vary; I was fortunate enough to not have specific joint-pain.

To try to leave this aching discussion on a "lighter" note: I did have an interesting psychic experience while in the acute feverish stage of Dengue: it seemed to occur on some kind of "other plane" of existence, in some "virtual Bangkok midnight:" where I met a certain Khun Ying Debee na Dengee, who was ... well ... hard to describe ... a kind of shimmering bacchantic voluputary in swirling gauze veils through which radiated the ghostly blue-light of Cerenkov radiation ... she seemed to emanate both eros and thanatos ... mesmerizing ... this is all I can remember of our "conversation:"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/643839-thai-public-health-min-dengue-fever-situation-worrisome/page-3#entry6470075

Be happy, use Deet

~o:37;

[AngelsLariat]

Please forgive me, but "I" never said anything about ibuprofen! That was the other guy, the one who is telling us about his brief encounter with the 'mild case' of Dengue Fever... that required a saline IV for dehydration.

Sorry, but I don't get it. Why do you find it so impossible to believe that I had dengue? Is is because you continue to believe that there is no such thing as a case of dengue that has mild symptoms?

[FolkGuitar]

Please forgive me, but "I" never said anything about ibuprofen! That was the other guy, the one who is telling us about his brief encounter with the 'mild case' of Dengue Fever... that required a saline IV for dehydration.

Sorry, but I don't get it. Why do you find it so impossible to believe that I had dengue? Is is because you continue to believe that there is no such thing as a case of dengue that has mild symptoms?

No. I am fully aware that often people present with different symptoms. It's because you stated first you had mild flu symptoms that led you to getting blood tests. In my admittedly limited experience, people generally don't go for blood test when presenting 'mild flue symptoms. Second, you stated that you were given an assortment of pills while having Dengue. Again, in my admittedly limited experience, people general aren't given anything other than Tylenol/Paracetamol when testing positive for Dengue. And third, and perhaps the clincher for me, was trying to balance 'mild flu symptoms' with an IV drip of physiologic saline solution. I can see that being used in severe cases of Dengue, where the patient is unable to hydrate sufficiently. But not in 'mild' cases such as you said you had. (In the two occasions where I had Dengue, both with very different symptoms, I was never given any other medications, nor hydrated with an IV) Putting all three together makes it very difficult for me to believe. I'm not calling you a liar. I'm saying that I don't believe it. Sorry, but I too was a medical professional, and this is my take on the situation.

[AngelsLariat]

Please forgive me, but "I" never said anything about ibuprofen! That was the other guy, the one who is telling us about his brief encounter with the 'mild case' of Dengue Fever... that required a saline IV for dehydration.

Sorry, but I don't get it. Why do you find it so impossible to believe that I had dengue? Is is because you continue to believe that there is no such thing as a case of dengue that has mild symptoms?

No. I am fully aware that often people present with different symptoms. It's because you stated first you had mild flu symptoms that led you to getting blood tests. In my admittedly limited experience, people generally don't go for blood test when presenting 'mild flue symptoms. Second, you stated that you were given an assortment of pills while having Dengue. Again, in my admittedly limited experience, people general aren't given anything other than Tylenol/Paracetamol when testing positive for Dengue. And third, and perhaps the clincher for me, was trying to balance 'mild flu symptoms' with an IV drip of physiologic saline solution. I can see that being used in severe cases of Dengue, where the patient is unable to hydrate sufficiently. But not in 'mild' cases such as you said you had. (In the two occasions where I had Dengue, both with very different symptoms, I was never given any other medications, nor hydrated with an IV) Putting all three together makes it very difficult for me to believe. I'm not calling you a liar. I'm saying that I don't believe it. Sorry, but I too was a medical professional, and this is my take on the situation.

Would you like me to send you my medical records?

FWIW, the reason that I went to the hospital for tests was that one night I started to develop ear pain that was preventing me from sleeping (Yes, I know that's not on the usual list of Dengue symptoms) but I had visions of going deaf and judged it best to get checked out. I didn't think that I was going to positive for dengue either. I had read sources like WebMD and all seemed to be saying that for it to be dengue you needed to have a high fever plus a couple of other miscellaneous symptoms. I seemed to have enough miscellaneous symptoms but I don't think that my fever ever even hit 39C and I had a couple of other symptoms (coughing and diarrhea) that didn't seem to fit at all. But clearly something was wrong, so I went to see a doctor at CM Ram.

Since the description of my ailment seemed to be at odds with the way several popular medical websites describe the early onset of dengue, I'm not surprsised that it would conflict with your medical expertise also. But the case didn't seem to confuse the doctor at CM Ram in the least, and the test results were very clear.But still I find your militant rejection of what I have told you to be fantastically bizarre even for ThaiVisa.

Edited July 4, 2013 by AngelsLariat