Uk Visa Refusal

[bangkokblue]

So that's it ' reson to return'. Can anyone offer up the statistics for such reasoning, i.e., those who did'nt return. Even if the process is simply to weed out the less desirables which accounts to 37% of last years applicants with asylum not applicable ( though i know a few that should be in one ) what's the big deal.

[GU22]

As there are no passport controls on people leaving the UK then it is impossible to say exactly how many illegals there are in the UK.

It does seem that the government in general, and the IND in particular, can't win on this. Some people say "What's the problem, why have controls." Yet, at other times they are attacked for not tracking and deporting illegals.

Minister denies cocklers failure

The Home Office has denied it could have done more to prevent the deaths of 21 Chinese cockle pickers who drowned working illegally in Morecambe Bay.

A gangmaster has been convicted of their manslaughter and local Labour MP Geraldine Smith said officials turned a blind eye to the issue.

"They were a low priority so they were just left to wander around," she said.

So, round illegals up to deport them and be accused of being racist, or do nothing and then be blamed when the inevitable tragedy happens.

Which would you do?

[bangkokblue]

As there are no passport controls on people leaving the UK then it is impossible to say exactly how many illegals there are in the UK.

It does seem that the government in general, and the IND in particular, can't win on this. Some people say "What's the problem, why have controls." Yet, at other times they are attacked for not tracking and deporting illegals.

Minister denies cocklers failure

The Home Office has denied it could have done more to prevent the deaths of 21 Chinese cockle pickers who drowned working illegally in Morecambe Bay.

A gangmaster has been convicted of their manslaughter and local Labour MP Geraldine Smith said officials turned a blind eye to the issue.

"They were a low priority so they were just left to wander around," she said.

So, round illegals up to deport them and be accused of being racist, or do nothing and then be blamed when the inevitable tragedy happens.

Which would you do?

The chinese cocklers as i'm aware were visa less immigrants, correct me if wrong. The root of the problem as i see it is asylum seekers not visa holding overstayers, albeit there are many, again correct if you know different. As there is no true governtment statistics available i'm inclined to take the street view hence my whinge.

[Jersey_UK]

Which would you do?

I have no problem with legal immigration (if I do not like who the govt is letting in, I can try and vote the Govt out)

I have no problem with Asylum Seekers (If I was in danger of ending up dead or having wires attached to my testicles then I would appreciate folk in other countries letting me in!)

BUT, if someone comes over illegally (smuggles themselves on the back of a lorry etc), stays illegally (overstays their visa or works when on a Tourist Visa) or is refused Asylum and does not leave (on the grounds that the application is complete sh#te) THEN when they get caught, it is a CRIMINAL OFFENCE to have stayed. (They then get time in jail (possibly in an EU immigration jail, located in Albania or Bosnia - make it a part of their ascession talks!), a large fine, are then deported AND then barred from entry to the UK (and EU) forever. With everything from their finger prints to DNA to their ringpiece size being recorded to prevent their future re-entry. Ever. Even if they then win the Pools!

Second offence, 5 years in Jail. Ideally with a reciprocal arrangement with their home country to serve the time there (If the home country does not "Play ball" - cut off the aid / the "Mercedes Benz" money ).

Anyone found employing an illegal immigrant, gets a large fine, first offence is also time in jail. Second offence is 5 years. The same for anyone owning a business. You make money illegally - you pay the price. If the folk are not yet full citizens they also get their visa's revoked and then deported, forever.

Any immigrant who commits a crime (which COULD mean a jail term, even if they only got probation) whilst on a VISA or any sort gets deported and barred from the UK, forever.

The requirements for Citizenship becomes 5 or even 10 years on a SV (albeit that the residency can be a bit more liberal, say only 1/2 or 2/3's of the time spent in the UK), plus the immigrant must prove that they have been paying their full tax bills, must show that they have not committed any crimes and must either apply for full citizenship at the the end of the SV period (and meet all the requirements including the "Citizenship ceremony" where they must publically state their commitment to the UK as a liberal democracy, including that women are equal (and do not have to wear a bedsheet), shirt lifters are equal (and do not get stoned) and the rule of law is generated by f#ckwits in Westminster, not from a long dead "prophet" - even if he was kiddie fiddler)..................or they MUST f#ck off back home at the end of the SV period - if they do not apply for or get the full citizenship at the end of the SV period, they then become "Illegal" and get deported. Folk are either here as Tourists, visiting businessmen or as Citizens (or on a SV trying to become a Citizen. The UK does not remain a conveniant place to make money, without folk accpeting the responsibilities of citizenship.

For me the above is Fair. Hard but fair. The UK has to accept that 1 Billion people would like to come to the UK. It IS a question of numbers............even without the hosepipe ban

What really angers me (and I do not even live in the UK, as such) is the idea that the Govt is going to register and then monitor every law abiding citizen...........but finds it "too difficult" to firstly track down "illegals", and then if they do "accidently" find any to pretend they do not exist. Privatising the hunt and deportation of illegals would sort the problem out very quickly - you do not need to be Hercule Poirot to do this.

Of course they will never do this, cos the economy depends on cheap labour both abroad AND here - and those in power never like to f#ck with rich people making money

The above may sound a bit harshm but I beleive that my political views ARE quite balanced. Half of my views are to the right of Ghengis Kahn.........and the other half to the left of Josef Stalin

[Mister Doom]

Of course they will never do this, cos the economy depends on cheap labour both abroad AND here - and those in power never like to f#ck with rich people making money

Sounds a bit like Thailand

[silomfan]

Personally i can never understand why people in the UK get so steamed up about illegal immigrants. It doesn't affect my life one way or another if boatloads of them come here or not . The newspapers like to run hate stories on them which the gullible public lap up because it sells newspapers not because of any moral reasons on their part.

My taxes will be the same whether we have illegal immigrants or not ...so personally i don't care .Why people can't get on with their lives and stop worrying about what other people do or where they come from is beyond me .

Someone please give me a reason or two why i should care ... because i don't at the moment and never have .

I DO however think it wrong that the government wants to introduce a compulsory ID card system (and charge us for it !!) on the pretext of fightiong terrorism when in fact its not only being used for that . Its not the ID card that i and so many object to , its the bigger database that undermines civil liberties that I don't like the sound of .

Apologies for being a little off topic here

SILOMFAN

[silomfan]

Oh and another thing , why all this fuss about cheap foreign labour and why is it called exploitation ? They choose , indeed want , to come here ,illegally or not . They work long hours doing jobs the UK citizens do not want to do for small, but livable , wages. They are happy working here and the employers are happy to employ them . So why is this the huge scandal that the newspapers like to blow it up into ? Everyone's happy except the people who can't sem to live their lives without concerning themselves with what other people are doing .

Thats the way the world is , why can't people let it be ???

[GU22]

The chinese cocklers as i'm aware were visa less immigrants, correct me if wrong.

I don't think they were asylum seekers, in which case they must have been here on some sort of visa. Either way, they were working illegally.

Many people from poorer nations are recruited to come and work illegally in the UK. The criminal gangs that recruit them somehow manage to obtain visas for them, sometimes as students, sometimes as visitors and even as fiances or spouses of UK citizens. The ECOs at various embassies attempt to filter these fraudulent applications out, but the criminal gangmasters know how to present an application so that it meets the criteria.

When they get here, instead of the wonderful new life they've been promised, they find themselves living in squalor and working for bugger all money in dangerous jobs with no health and safety. Like the unfortunate Chinese cocklers, some of them die.

If they happen to be female, young and reasonably attractive then they find themselves hooked on drugs and working in a brothel.

None of which matters to some people who, like Silomfan, shrug their shoulders and say

Personally i can never understand why people in the UK get so steamed up about illegal immigrants. It doesn't affect my life one way or another if boatloads of them come here or not .....

Someone please give me a reason or two why i should care ... because i don't at the moment and never have .

Anyone who works in the construction industry has a very good reason to care about immigration, legal or otherwise. The site manager from a major building site said to me in the pub recently; "Why would I employ a British builder for £150 a day when I can get 2 Poles for that?" (Poles, of course, have a legal right to live and work in the UK under EU law.) The foreign workers he employs live in basic B&Bs and send most of their money home, and it's still a lot more than they could earn there. Unlike the British workers they are replacing they don't have British mortgages etc. to pay!

[silomfan]

Yes , i am sure what you say about your builder friend is true. None of which answers the question i asked which is why should it bother me ?? indeed why should it bother all those thousands of busy -bodies who can't seem to live their lives without interfering in other peoples . People like GU22 who has said before how bothered he is by prostitutes phonecards in phone boxes ... why ...why ...why ??? what the hel_l difference does it make to you ?? if you don't like it don't look...no-one is making you

you moan on about the few cases that hit the headlines where abuse takes place, but what about the millions of others where the immigrants are more than happy to have a job whatever it pays ? They can send money home and live a better life . And whats the problem with the builder who can employ 2 poles for the price of 1 UK?? thats just basic supply and demand

[silomfan]

Don't forget that if it wasn't made so bloody difficult to come to the UK then there wouldn't be so many illegal immigrants would there ?? Because they would then be legal and not have to commit the very crimes that illegal immigrants do commit to stay here. Having a harsh and tough immigration policy that so many here cheer (quite why it bothers them i don't know ) is directly responsible for as many deaths i'm sure as those caused by the odd so-called people trafficker. How many genuine applicants refused by an ECO of a better life in the UK or even just a chance to visit there , have gone on to become drug addicts and die as a result ?? Common sense tells you that many refusals in Thailand alone would have gone on to meet that fate . Of course thats not something you will read about in the News of the World is it ? That kind of immigration story doesn't meet their political objectives of pandering to a bloodthirsty public who are far too busy prying into how other people live.

[GU22]

If someone wants to sell sex that is up to them.

But you seem to be saying that girls who are tricked into coming to the UK (or elsewhere) believing they are going to be domestic workers or similar only to find themselves imprisoned in a brothel and forced into selling their bodies, in other words submit to rape, several times a day are no concern of yours. Shame on you.

You seem to be saying that people from third world countries who are recruited to work in low paid jobs in the UK and when they get here are treated as no better than slaves, risking their health and their lives so you can buy cheap food from Tescos, are no concern of yours. Shame on you.

You also seem to be saying that anyone who is concerned by the plight of these unfortunate victims of criminal gangs are

busy -bodies who can't seem to live their lives without interfering in other peoples .

I would like to remind you that it was these "busy -bodies who can't seem to live their lives without interfering in other peoples" who were responsible for the changes in law and attitude to homosexuals in the UK which means that, among many other things, you can now bring your boyfriend to the UK as a civil partner!

For a genuine person to be refused a visa can be, and often is, a devastating blow. However, unless you can produce evidence (not conjecture) to the opposite effect, I doubt very much if visa refusals are responsible for large numbers of people in poorer countries becoming drug addicts.

Don't forget that if it wasn't made so bloody difficult to come to the UK then there wouldn't be so many illegal immigrants would there ?? Because they would then be legal and not have to commit the very crimes that illegal immigrants do commit to stay here.

And if burglary, murder, rape etc. were made legal there would be no criminals!

It is made so, as you say, "bloody difficult" to get a visa because of the activities of criminal people smugglers and their victims. (Actually, it's not that difficult at all, as the figures you refuse to believe show. Unless, like your boyfriend, the applicant has previously broken the immigration rules. Even then, if one can show that the criteria are met one can still get a visa; as your boyfriend did.)

[Guest endure]

If someone wants to sell sex that is up to them.

But you seem to be saying that girls who are tricked into coming to the UK (or elsewhere) believing they are going to be domestic workers or similar only to find themselves imprisoned in a brothel and forced into selling their bodies, in other words submit to rape, several times a day are no concern of yours. Shame on you.

You seem to be saying that people from third world countries who are recruited to work in low paid jobs in the UK and when they get here are treated as no better than slaves, risking their health and their lives so you can buy cheap food from Tescos, are no concern of yours. Shame on you.

If legal entry into the UK for economic purposes had less stringent requirements then the Morecombe Bay cocklers wouldn't have had to put themselves in the hands of criminal gangmasters - they could have entered and done the work legally.

[silomfan]

Somehow i just knew that it would be GU22 who would rush to the defence of the busy-bodies , just as i knew the scoucer would read the thread without replying (which i saw he did)

Once again GU22 uses the quote facility on this forum in his usual selective way to make something read in a way to suit him. If i could only work out how to use this quote thing myself i could also do this. Unfortunately i can't so a normal reply is the best i can manage.

Incidently, this thread was started on a refusal of a visa but it wasn't an in depth original post and it was already hi-jacked by jersey before i posted so limited apologies only for straying from the original thread. Hopefully some of you will find this both interesting and stimulating enough to add your own views. We don't want this to become another GU22 v Silomfan thread do we? Otherwise it will just get abruptly closed down and i will probably be suspended again for an unknown and unexplained reason (GU22 of course will never be suspended as he's so very pro the establishment )

Right , to take his points in the order he posted them

1)We agree that if someone wants to sell sex why shouldn't they. Hey we actually agree !!

2)I never said anything like what he said i seem to be saying in his second paragraph. Where did i say that ?? I wrote about cards in phone boxes .... what makes GU22 think these are not from people who chose to do this ? Hmmm??

3)Re his third para, all i said was that if workers chose to come here , legally or on the back of a truck , to work earn money and send it home , why should that bother anyone? Again what proof does GU22 have that these are all slaves living in terrible conditions risking life and limb ?? hmmm ?? what proof ?? How does he know they are not perfectly happy here doing what they are doing , harming no-one , the only threat to them being people like GU22 who just have to butt into their lives to "protect" them from themselves. And then getting them deported so they can live a dreadful life in their own country where they have , after all, chosen to escape from in the first place !!! Next he'll be defending deportations to Zimbabwe (funny he hasn't got a lot to say on that subject has he )

4)The subject of homosexuals is rather off topic here . If he desires to open a thread on it i will gladly contribute.

5) I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume (use some common sense for christs sake) that a percentage of refusals who were genuine , will have been devastated by it (GU22 says it can be devastating and i am agreeing) and gone on to drug/alcahol abuse which lead to their premature death . Indeed i know of a Thai who applied back in the mid 1990's for a vv to the UK. No reason to return so refused. He was so cut up he turned to drugs ...got convicted and sent to a Bangkok jail for 2 years . Released after this he died of AIDS aquired from using dirty needles in jail. This is not made up , it happened and i was there to see it . So the ECO who refused him kick started the chain of events that subsequently happened. So if i know of 1 case where what i had suggested actually happened (which was why i wrote it in the first place) then it is common sense that there are thousands more . No ??

6) Not sure of the point of the "burglary , murder and rape " bit . What am i supposed to say ?? I was never supporting this so i can't comment.

I would like to add that , aside from financial reasons, i think most people are mad to want to live here (in the UK) anyway and i include myself in that . I stay because its financially correct to do so. Earn the easy money here and spend it abroad. Like thousands every year. Scarcely a day passes without something in the newspapers or the TV suggesting yet another thing is to be made illegal. The prudes that run this country (the "dreary people" the artist David Hockney called them on BBC1 last week ) seem to want to make anything vaguely pleasurable illegal. Only last week we had this absurd smoking in public places to be illegal in England next year. I have NEVER smoked BTW so i have no ulterior motive. It will be illegal ...yes illegal...to smoke at a bus stop from next year as it is now in Scotland. !! I mean .. can you believe that ?? Also last week someone was fined for putting litter in a litter bin because he owned a shop nearby so wasn't supposed to use a public litter bin . People are paid by the council to walk around checking . Our council tax goes on this , and yet no-one complains . But one poor illegal minding his/her own business working part-time (illegally) in an indian restaurant doing no harm to anyone and perfectly happy , trying to slightly better their lives , and the whole world of busy bodies comes down on them . I know of people working illegally (as i suspect a lot of people do) but i would never dream of reporting them . What harm are they doing and why would i want to destroy their lives?? I let the busy-bodies do that.

[GU22]

If legal entry into the UK for economic purposes had less stringent requirements then the Morecombe Bay cocklers wouldn't have had to put themselves in the hands of criminal gangmasters - they could have entered and done the work legally.

The requirements aren't that stringent, the main one being that the potential employer has to show that the vacancy cannot be filled from within the EU.

There are many local cockle pickers in Morecombe Bay, so it was not a case of if these illegal workers didn't do it, no one would.

Silomfan,

I don't have time to deal with your 'points' at the moment, but will do later.

Edited April 3, 2006 by GU22

[silomfan]

If legal entry into the UK for economic purposes had less stringent requirements then the Morecombe Bay cocklers wouldn't have had to put themselves in the hands of criminal gangmasters - they could have entered and done the work legally.

The requirements aren't that stringent, the main one being that the potential employer has to show that the vacancy cannot be filled from within the EU.

There are many local cockle pickers in Morecombe Bay, so it was not a case of if these illegal workers didn't do it, no one would.

But GU22 that doesn't address the point being made by endure does it ?? These people are all dead and they wouldn't be if they were allowed to come here more easily. Whose hands is their blood on ?? The so called criminal who recruited them or the people like yourself who support the harsh immigration rules ?? Someones responsible ...who?

[bangkokblue]

The reason for my topic post was born out of frustration for my fellow Brit's at the same time share in the feelings of all other nationals.

The uk for some 50yrs had an immigration policy to be proud of so what went wrong. Today we find polish, and Latvian's in the queue passing through unchecked in the thousands weekly, and as for 2012............Yet a Brit's sponsored g/f can face both hurtful and stressful interragation and still go away visaless. Now, As a Brit i'm up for a bit of fair play and this is simply not british to coin a phrase.

[Rj 81]

The reason for my topic post was born out of frustration for my fellow Brit's at the same time share in the feelings of all other nationals.

The uk for some 50yrs had an immigration policy to be proud of so what went wrong. Today we find polish, and Latvian's in the queue passing through unchecked in the thousands weekly, and as for 2012............Yet a Brit's sponsored g/f can face both hurtful and stressful interragation and still go away visaless. Now, As a Brit i'm up for a bit of fair play and this is simply not british to coin a phrase.

Here here, I say old chap

No seriously, I tend to agree.

[silomfan]

Me too .. but try telling that to the ECO fan club here who are small in number but prolific posters .

I do hope you won't give up

[LaoPo]

The reason for my topic post was born out of frustration for my fellow Brit's at the same time share in the feelings of all other nationals.

The uk for some 50yrs had an immigration policy to be proud of so what went wrong. Today we find polish, and Latvian's in the queue passing through unchecked in the thousands weekly, and as for 2012............Yet a Brit's sponsored g/f can face both hurtful and stressful interragation and still go away visaless. Now, As a Brit i'm up for a bit of fair play and this is simply not british to coin a phrase.

I can understand your frustration, tell me....Although I'm not from the UK but The Netherlands, and married to a Chinese lady, I know everything about frustrations with Visa.

The immigration-laws in ALL EU countries are getting stricter and stricter and at the same time we 'have to' let the Polish, Latvians etc. come in because of the EU rules. They, now, belong to the EU and we can't do much about it anymore.

I know, it's extremely frustrating if one's gf doesn't get a Visa, even if her bf makes enough money.

The problem is in the many -illegals- (female/male) from many countries, who came in with a tourist-visa and didn't return to their respective homecountries. It's the same all over Europe, unfortunately.

And, believe me, the laws in Holland are even fiercer now than the UK.....ALL newcomers HAVE TO STUDY the Dutch language first in their homecountry, BEFORE they will even get a Visa* !!!

Crazy? yes...but true.

They have to do an exam at their local Embassy (cost: Euro 350.--) through a voice-computer....If they fail, they are allowed to do it again...........but pay again also

Since than (March 15th) the applications for a Visa have dropped dramatically

* longer than 3 months (but even an application for a touristvisa takes now up to 3-6 months, without guarantee of receiving one...)

LaoPo

Edited April 3, 2006 by LaoPo

[cleverD]

Do we have any immigration police in the UK ? If better immigration controls were in place in the UK ie passports stamped on the way out at least the Gov.would have some idea about the numbers of overstay visitors in the country.If Thailand can do this why can't the UK.I don't think Thailand has hundreds of thousands of overstay visitors who have entered through normal chanels,

[cleverD]

How can we get Jersey UK a job in the Home Office !!!!!

[Jersey_UK]

Incidently, this thread was started on a refusal of a visa but it wasn't an in depth original post and it was already hi-jacked by jersey before i posted so limited apologies only for straying from the original thread.

It was NOT "hijacked" by me!............the OP's points had already been pretty much addressed, plus he had just got his visa so wasn't desperate for advice........ and then someone asked the question "What would you do" about immigration. So I replied.

Of course what the UK does about immigration is not really a subject for me, I can't vote for the f#ckers who set the policies, even if we do follow them. Also although I guess I am technically "British" I long since stopped thinking of myself as British - Britain for me is as irrelevant a concept as the "commonwealth".

Having got that off my chest (again), we do seem to have two seperate views here of what "Britain" is for, it is either a place for the "British" to live, work and raise their families with the British Govt doing their utmost to look after, protect and help the British Citizens do this. OR it is just a conveniant place to make money and is effectively no more than a Trading Estate, with the "culture" to match.

For the first view it is the case that the bar to entry is set so that folk coming in have something to contribute and although it may be hard to get in, once you are in - that is it - you ARE 100% equal to everyone else, no matter where your origin.

For the second view it is the case that you let in anyone (either officially or unofficially). In addition to just being a cheap pool of labour which suppresses the wages and work conditions of folk already here, apart from being arguable morally wrong and also is exploitative of BOTH immigrant and citizen, IMO this is NOT a sustainable policy.

I beleive that the 2nd option is what those in power (of whatever party) have decided on. Shortsighted stupidity and wishful thinking does appear to be the "Third way" adopted for the new century.

On the Dutch immigration tests, I saw a bit on TV recently - thought it was a great idea. They interviewed a Govt minister (?) whosaid something like "we had been naive over the last 20 years". Shame it will mean more illegals for the UK.

[GU22]

Somehow i just knew that it would be GU22 who would rush to the defence of the busy-bodies , just as i knew the scoucer would read the thread without replying (which i saw he did)

If people like you are going to post crap, then I have every right to counter it; just as Scouse, a far more sensible fellow than I, has every right to ignore it. You complain because I respond to your nonsense, yet complain because Scouse doesn't! So, do you want to be acknowledged or ignored?

Once again GU22 uses the quote facility on this forum in his usual selective way to make something read in a way to suit him. If i could only work out how to use this quote thing myself i could also do this. Unfortunately i can't so a normal reply is the best i can manage.

Your inability to use the quote facility is due to your own incompetence. Most other members here seem to manage it. It is always used selectively, to highlight the specific point to which one is responding.

(GU22 of course will never be suspended as he's so very pro the establishment )

I can't speak for the mods, but I can say that I have been warned about breaking the forum rules and threatened with suspension if I didn't comply. I heeded the warning, shame you didn't.

I never said anything like what he said i seem to be saying in his second paragraph. Where did i say that ?? I wrote about cards in phone boxes .... what makes GU22 think these are not from people who chose to do this ? Hmmm??

Your post appeared to be responding to my preceding one about sex slaves. I naturally assumed that this aspect of prostitution was the main subject. So, what is your view on sex slavery? Do you think it should be stopped?

3)Re his third para, all i said was that if workers chose to come here , legally or on the back of a truck , to work earn money and send it home , why should that bother anyone? Again what proof does GU22 have that these are all slaves living in terrible conditions risking life and limb ?? hmmm ?? what proof ?? How does he know they are not perfectly happy here doing what they are doing , harming no-one

How illegal workers are propping up our lifestyle and Low pay crooks dodge the law are just 2 examples of how illegal workers are exploited, being paid less than minimum wage, no Health & Safety etc., turned up by a mere 1 minute on Google. Research this properly and you will find much more.

Next he'll be defending deportations to Zimbabwe (funny he hasn't got a lot to say on that subject has he )

I thought this was a forum about Thailand, not Zimbabwe! But if you want a discussion on that poor country and it's fascist leader then I will contribute.

The subject of homosexuals is rather off topic here . If he desires to open a thread on it i will gladly contribute.

As I was responding to your comments about "busy-bodies" with an example directly relevant to you, it seemed relevant to me. Certainly more relevant than Zimbabwe.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume (use some common sense for christs sake) that a percentage of refusals who were genuine , will have been devastated by it (GU22 says it can be devastating and i am agreeing) and gone on to drug/alcahol abuse which lead to their premature death . Indeed i know of a Thai who applied back in the mid 1990's for a vv to the UK. No reason to return so refused. He was so cut up he turned to drugs ...got convicted and sent to a Bangkok jail for 2 years . Released after this he died of AIDS aquired from using dirty needles in jail. This is not made up , it happened and i was there to see it . So the ECO who refused him kick started the chain of events that subsequently happened.

About 6 years ago I was friendly (platonic) with a Thai girl in her late 20's who lived in England. She had come here with a spouse visa, but the marriage had broken down (after she had got her ILR) and she had been deserted by her ex husband. To cut a long story short, she had fallen in with a 'bad lot' who had got her addicted to crack cocaine. They were now pressurising her to work in a brothel for them to feed her habit. She's dead now. If I were to use your sample of one, then I would say that this proves that getting a visa to the UK will lead to drug addiction and death.

Making a sweeping assumption based on a sample of one only makes you look stupid.

) Not sure of the point of the "burglary , murder and rape " bit . What am i supposed to say ?? I was never supporting this so i can't comment.

This comment was made to in response to you saying that the way to solve illegal working etc. was to make it legal. As (to quote Molesworth) any fule wude kno!

But GU22 that doesn't address the point being made by endure does it ?? These people are all dead and they wouldn't be if they were allowed to come here more easily. Whose hands is their blood on ?? The so called criminal who recruited them or the people like yourself who support the harsh immigration rules ?? Someones responsible ...who?

The people who recruited them, gained entry into the UK for them and took them out on the sands to drown. That is obvious.

Relaxing the immigration and work permit rules wont stop things like this happening. If it were easier to gain entry to the UK to work then it would happen more often, not less. Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that. If it were easier to come, more would, giving an increased supply of people willing to work for less than minimum wage etc., because they would still be better of than at home. The criminals who exploit these people would have an easier time, as their victims would be here legally. One less chance of the bastards being caught.

The points raised on the rights of EU nationals versus non EU nationals has been adequately dealt with by LaoPo, so I wont repeat them.

[GU22]

Do we have any immigration police in the UK ? If better immigration controls were in place in the UK ie passports stamped on the way out at least the Gov.would have some idea about the numbers of overstay visitors in the country.If Thailand can do this why can't the UK.I don't think Thailand has hundreds of thousands of overstay visitors who have entered through normal chanels,

The IND do employ investigators, but it's not an area the government wants to spend money on, so there are nowhere near enough.

Immigration controls on exiting the UK were abolished as a cost cutting measure. The sooner they are re-instated the better, IMO.

[thai3]

Don't forget that if it wasn't made so bloody difficult to come to the UK then there wouldn't be so many illegal immigrants would there

It is difficult for ecconomic migrants (the vast majority of 'asylum seekers' and illegals) to pass through many countries in order to get to the UK. But once here seems pretty easy not to get sent back as in the case of the chinese. There are many illegals here due to govt lack of action over many years in not having an effective policy of returning illegals. Why are so many so desperate to come here as opposed to many other countries-benefits, housing, healthcare, education etc. Those that advocate no or few barriers to immigration are often those not living in areas with large immigrant populations and who never come up with an upper limit on immiration. We cannot sustain unlimited numbers of the worlds poor and undereducated coming over, then sending for friends and family year after year. The argument that they benefit the economy by doing jobs nobody else wants to do is a pretty feeble one. Let those that benefit the country come by all means and those who are real asylum seekers, the others have no right to be here so why undermine the whole system by ignoring them while at the same time making people jump through hoops who just want to come here on a VV from thailand for a couple of weeks. For once I agree with GU22 we need effective policing of our borders.

Edited April 4, 2006 by thai3

[silomfan]

I'll deal with GU22's points in order again as it makes it easier for me to respond on so many issues and easier also for the other people to read and follow.

1) i wasn't "complaining" i was making an observation.

2)You DO use the quote facility selectivally to highlight only the bits you want to respond to and thus deliberately avoiding having to answer the more difficult ones. And no i can't master it and nor , from what i observe can many others who create enourmous posts by having to reply using the full text of the previous post. Reason , they can't work it out either. One time i asked how it was done , you told me , and then you couldn't get it to work either ..!! remember??

3)I was NEVER warned at all or told of the possibility of suspension . It just happened. where was my warnings ?? you appear to have got something that i didn't but then again you are pro-establishment maybe thats the reason ?? what other reason can there be ?? maybe scouse could comment on why i had no warning ? If he says i did, can he give me the link cos i never saw it.

4) I was clear in talking about phone box cards which i kn ow you don't like . My question was more about why they bother you and specifically why you just assume they are all sex slaves when they could be quite happy doing this . And if they are happy , you seem to concede that then it is ok. right??

5) these articles are just one journalists take on the situation , a certain Brian Wheeler. No doubt he has uncovered one or two examples of abuse and made a typical media explosion out of it . something to pad out the news on a given evening. How does this prove that the vast majority are not entirely happy?. There are no statistics according to the article, just assumptions. Of course in every walk of life there are tragic exceptions, but it doersn't mean the majority are not well cared for does it ?

6) note GU22 still can't comment on the disgraceful Government tactic of deporting to Zimbabwe and almost certain torture and death. Tries to fob it off by saying its irrelevant to this thread. We are talking generally about immigration to the UK here not just from Thailand so come on GU22 , was the government right to deport to Zimbabwe or will you finaly critisise them for something.?

7) this thread is about immigration not homosexuality . that belongs in another thread.

8) I was not making sweeping assumptions , i was relating one example i knew of and saying that common sense dictates that this must have happened to others as well especially given Thailands drug problems. The point being had he been allowed to come to the UK for a visit (BIG deal!!) then he most likely would still be alive. The ECO refusing started a chain of events that would most likely not have otherwise happened and resulted in the death of a 22 year old. How is that making me look stupid ?? Of course one can't be sure what would have happened. He could have been killed in a bus crash the next day , buyt an educated guess based on probabilities suggests he would most likely still be alive.

9) i can only repeat what i said initially to this comment

10)its not obvious at all. If they weren't forced to come here illegally they would not have been in the exact position they were in , for example they may have chosen to work in a restaurant , quite possible. or a hotel. in which case they wouldn't have drown on the beach would they? if they could come here legally they wouldn't need the criminal gangs to help them , they could help themselves just like the tens of thousands of students here legally do when it comes to finding work in their spare time do. really you do say some stupid things at times. anything to avoid accepting that the harsh immigration rules can possibly be wrong and that they can , in some cases, lead to death the reponsibility for which can belong to the ECO and the system they work under. And the people like you who call for such a system , which goes on to create hysteria in the media which goes on to give the government the excuse (public demand) to introduce these harsh measures. If those unfortunate and tragic Chinese workers could have come here legally they would all most certainly still be alive . they are dead because they couldn't come here legally , and they couldn't come here legally because of people like you who just can't mind their own business and let others live their lives how they see fit.

I see you made no effort to comment on the increasing infringments on our civil liberties in this couintry that i gave a couple of examples of . Quite wise in my opinion. You did right to pretend you hadn't seen them. Can't smoke at a bus stop .. hmmm...tricky one to defend that isn't it . better to stay quiet.

Don't forget that all this started by discussing people who just can't mind their own business . i have simply suggested circumstances , which are entirely feasable, where these busy-bodies in their misguided attempts to "protect" vulnerable people have actually created situations where the very people they are trying to protect are now dead. I'm sure they will all sleep well tonight in their righteous belief that they are doing good . Have another listen to the tape of the poor chinese crying out for help in that 999 call unable to speak english whilst they are drowning. If they could have come here legally that call would never have been made. And who is responsible for them not being able to be here legally.... ??

[taxexile]

My taxes will be the same whether we have illegal immigrants or not ...so personally i don't care

not exactly silomfan , illegal immigrants are a great strain on the services provided by the government , especially the health service , who rarely check on whether patients are legally entitled to free health care.

your taxes that should be spent on schools for the children of taxpaying citizens (of any nationality), that should be providing hospital and medical services for taxpayers , that should be going towards pensions for those who have worked and paid taxes for 50 years , etc.etc.etc.

the money that the government spends on tracking down illegals that should never either have been let in , or sneaked in , plus the money spent on providing public services to these people is all money that is not going to those who are legally entitled to it.

the shortfall in funds will either have to be made up from raised taxes , or cutbacks to existing services.

should you ever have to wait 3 worrying months to see a specialist in a hospital to see if that lump is a terminal malignancy or just a benign cyst , or go on a 18 month wait to get your agonisingly uncomfortable hip replaced , or your child is being taught in a class of 50 by a different teacher every day , or you are billed 400 pounds by your national health dentist (if you can find one ) whilst that foriegn speaking person is having free multiple root canal work with porcelain crowns for free you may just wonder why the taxpayer , squeezed until he hurts , is getting such a raw deal , whilst illegals just walk in and get it all for free.

underground organisations provide these people with all the false documentation they need to get into the system , and they are well taught how to work the system to their maximum advantage.

its not morally right , and they should be stopped from entering ,and the penalties for entering should be such that no one would dare to enter , and they should be strictly and fairly enforced.

of course the lily livered government , who would sell their own children into slavery rather than hear the word racism , would never dream of doing anything about it.

it does affect you , it steals what is rightfully yours as a taxpayer. you should not have this 'what do i care attitude'

[silomfan]

But my taxes will be the same , and that is what i was saying. The percentage taken by the government will be the same . The point i was making is that financially i will be no better or worse off with thousands or no illegal immigrants. There may be non-financial reasons why i should care , and you have listed some , but my original point was only financial. After all i could say that as a person with no children why should i have to contribute to the vast expense of OTHER PEOPLES children ?. when i was young most children left school at 16 or 18 if they were so inclined and went straight into a job. Started work and contributed to society. The most my parents got was the occasional free milk or orange juice . No child allowance and weekly freebies like now. If people choose to have children thats fine with me , have dozens for all i care , but why should i pay a penny for their upkeep? The parents should pay as my parents had to. If they can't pay then don't have children until you can.

Regarding the NHS yes of course thats very important. Good health is one of the most important things in life . Don't forget you don't have to wait 18 months for your hip replacement, you can always pay for it privately. People love to winge on about the NHS choosing to ignore the fact that if they spend a tiny fraction of their huge savings they can have the treatment next week.

Behind all this is a important point i was originally trying to make that has got obscured by so many issues all in one thread . All i was trying to get across is that rather than leap on the media -led bandwagon of persecuting illegals , think for a moment and ask will it actually make one jot of difference to your lives? In my case it won't and in most peoples cases it won't . If there are no illegals do you think taxes will go down to say , 15%?. No of course not . You will pay the same as before just the money will be spent or wasted in different ways . The government may spend more on beautifying the Scottish Highlands , or more on yet again incresing child benefit, or setting up a study group at huge expense to look at the effects of smoking at bus stops. Why do you think the important things like the health service , which i fully support , will benefit. How many billions are spent every year and yet people still complain. If there were no illegals it may not make a bit of difference. You may still have to wait 18 months for your hip , and you will still have the option to pay and get it done quicker. Thats my opinion which , until the government makes freedom of expression illegal (and they have made a start on even that) i have the right to express.

SILOMFAN

[Guest endure]

Relaxing the immigration and work permit rules wont stop things like this happening. If it were easier to gain entry to the UK to work then it would happen more often, not less. Anyone with an ounce of sense can see that. If it were easier to come, more would, giving an increased supply of people willing to work for less than minimum wage etc., because they would still be better of than at home. The criminals who exploit these people would have an easier time, as their victims would be here legally. One less chance of the bastards being caught.

If they were given legal entry they wouldn't need to work for criminals. Do all the EU citizens who have right of entry work for criminal gangs at less than minimum wage? So what's the difference between a Pole with legal entry rights and a Chinese with the same rights as far as employment is concerned?

[Jersey_UK]

How can we get Jersey UK a job in the Home Office !!!!!

Not quite sure if I would go that far

I would probably end up in jail..........from some barmy law I had thought up late at night whilst on the internet

should i have to contribute to the vast expense of OTHER PEOPLES children

Yes. For YOUR long term benefit, including financially - I won't bother listing them.

BTW down here we do not have any Dole etc. You cannot work, you starve. (only joking!), but you do have to either "go to the parish" where handouts are 100%.........discretionary But of course what the long term "no hopers" do is go on the sick and draw "social security" as well as get free housing which is the broad equivalent of your NI, except we DO actually have a fund AND it contains money!

But then again we have pretty much full employment, largely based on stealing other peoples taxes Free Market Capitalism (aka "begger thy neighbour") at it's finest.