discriminatory pricing on flights to Europe

[clifric]

Why is it that all airlines apply a discriminatory tariff to return flights commencing from Thailand - or is it that they offer substantial discounts for return flights coming in?

For example, taking a departure date of 20th November and a return on 20th December 2013, the following prices are given by Expedia for RETURN fares.

Melbourne(MEL) to London (LHR) £1026 China South £1432 Emirates

LHR to MEL £928 Air China £1275 Emirates

Bangkok (BKK) to LHR £709 Aeroflot, £792 China East, £859 KLM, £970 Etihad. £3291 Thai (?)

LHR to BKK £538 Oman, £604 British Airways, £624 Etihad, £646 Thai

Birmingham (BHX) to BKK £706 Emirates £630 Etihad/KLM

BKK to BHX £1063 Etihad, £1164 Lufthansa, £1176 Emirates

Manchester (MAN) to BKK £622 Qatar

BKK - MAN £959 Etihad

No benefits can be found by travelling via Frankfurt, Kuala Lumpur or Singapore

[geriatrickid]

I think your illustration is not appropriate.All you have done is shown 1 segment on different routes for the airlines

For an appropriate illustration to be made, both the Round trip and the the other segment fares must be shown, and there has to be the same routing.

There is no discriminatory tariff The fares reflect the demand on the route segment. As you know there are higher costs of flying to the EU. If you look at the BKK to North America routes, fares are lower for flights originating in BKK when broken down by segment.

[brewsterbudgen]

Don't prices reflect supply & demand? Presumably there is significantly more demand to fly to Thailand from Europe than the other way?

[gmac]

Don't prices reflect supply & demand? Presumably there is significantly more demand to fly to Thailand from Europe than the other way?

Don't think that's the answer as a few years back, before the exchange rate tumbled, it was always cheaper to book a return flight from the Thailand end rather than the UK end.

[Sandman77]

I always book my tickets in the eu!

Just call the travel company in my homecountry and get ticket online !

Regular price around 600 € from Munich go and back, and the funny thing is in low season for shorttime traveler current offer 3 weeks in a Phuket hotel with flight go and back for 859€ when I would walk in at counter without booking it would be more expensive!

[AloisAmrein]

You should buy the flight in Europe, not in Thailand. Try kayak.com and check Lufthansa or Swiss. And not travel during the Christmas season, if you are looking for cheap flights. Try several days, because prices change every day.

[KittenKong]

There is no discriminatory tariff The fares reflect the demand on the route segment. As you know there are higher costs of flying to the EU.

I'm not aware of any "higher costs" that dont apply more on the outward leg from the EU than on the incoming leg to the EU, and for return flights the costs average out any way. So that would seem to be an invalid argument.

As for the demand argument, this is clearly incorrect. Generally flights on the same dates simply cost more when originating from Thailand than when originating from the EU, yet the demand and occupancy are identical. That said, there is an element of expectation in the pricing: most people expect to pay more for tickets originating here and so the airlines are happy to comply. Add to that a dose of good old-fashioned Thai cartel pricing and perhaps some supplement for paying in a currency that isnt freely convertible/exportable and I think we have the answer.

This overpricing is not discriminatory though as everyone pays the same high price regardless of race colour or creed, at least as far as I know.

[Loptr]

It's called price fixing on routes where there are a limited number of carriers. It's been going on forever. Get used to it or take a slow boat.

[stevenl]

For example, taking a departure date of 20th November and a return on 20th December 2013, the following prices are given by Expedia for RETURN fares.

There is no price comparison in your examples whatsoever.

[clifric]

So Stevenl -

Birmingham (BHX) to BKK £706 Emirates £630 Etihad/KLM

BKK to BHX £1063 Etihad, £1164 Lufthansa, £1176 Emirates

A return fare starting from Birmingham (BHX) to Bangkok and returning from BKK to BHX at £630 cannot be compared to the return fare when Bangkok is the starting point of £1063? Taking Etihad fares that is £433 more for me to travel to see my relatives than it is for them to come and see me, using the same planes, same landing charges.

[evadgib]

A friend who lives here & travels home regularly purchases all of his flights from UK for reasons given above.

[NanLaew]

The 'cheaper bought in EU' option has been there for ages. If you are stuck in LOS and want to get on the bandwagon, buy a cheap as dirt one-way via India (usually) and then buy your round-trip tickets at the other end.

The supply and demand thing; the cheaper fares TO Thailand is because it's primarily a holiday destination for Europeans with greater liquidity (for now!) and gets loads of bums on seats. The Asian tourist market (Asians going to non-Asian destinations) isn't quite mature enough yet. The average Thai, Malaysian or Indonesian isn't up for the long weekend in Paris, rambling in the Trossachs or a Rhine cruise just yet but that is changing rapidly. The Indians and Russians are the leading edge of a new trend whereas the mid-east is cashing in on revitalising their stopover business that was largely wiped out with the advent of newer, long-range planes with fuel efficient engines.

[nahkit]

The 'cheaper bought in EU' option has been there for ages. If you are stuck in LOS and want to get on the bandwagon, buy a cheap as dirt one-way via India (usually) and then buy your round-trip tickets at the other end.

The supply and demand thing; the cheaper fares TO Thailand is because it's primarily a holiday destination for Europeans with greater liquidity (for now!) and gets loads of bums on seats. The Asian tourist market (Asians going to non-Asian destinations) isn't quite mature enough yet. The average Thai, Malaysian or Indonesian isn't up for the long weekend in Paris, rambling in the Trossachs or a Rhine cruise just yet but that is changing rapidly. The Indians and Russians are the leading edge of a new trend whereas the mid-east is cashing in on revitalising their stopover business that was largely wiped out with the advent of newer, long-range planes with fuel efficient engines.

Well surely all those tourists go home at the end of their holiday so wouldn't the FROM demand equal the TO demand in the case of tourists? I'm assuming that the Asian and European tourists are travelling on the same flights/routes.

Fares to Thailand are fairly cheap where I fly from and they have very few tourists travelling to Thailand, I think the pricing is affected by government taxes and in some cases governments may set price limits on fares.

Edited July 10, 2013 by nahkit

[stevenl]

So Stevenl -

<snip>

A return fare starting from Birmingham (BHX) to Bangkok and returning from BKK to BHX at £630 cannot be compared to the return fare when Bangkok is the starting point of £1063?

Correct, can not be compared.

[KittenKong]

Well surely all those tourists go home at the end of their holiday so wouldn't the FROM demand equal the TO demand in the case of tourists? I'm assuming that the Asian and European tourists are travelling on the same flights/routes.

Precisely.

The argument that fares from Thailand are high because there is no demand for seats is just a heap of nonsense.

[NanLaew]

Well surely all those tourists go home at the end of their holiday so wouldn't the FROM demand equal the TO demand in the case of tourists? I'm assuming that the Asian and European tourists are travelling on the same flights/routes.

Precisely.

The argument that fares from Thailand are high because there is no demand for seats is just a heap of nonsense.

Think it through guys.

The European tourist buys a round-trip ticket so the assumption is correct that the passenger load on both outward and inward legs will be mostly the same when it comes to tourists. Accordingly, most of the seats FROM Bangkok will already be accounted for (by the returning tourist passenger) but that's the loss leader thus ensuring the remaining inbound seats are at a premium. The BKK-Europe traveler is paying extra to make up for the lower margins on the cheaper Europe-BKK round-trip traveler. If the Asian tourist (going to Europe) market was as big as the European tourist (going to Asia), the costs would be closer regardless of what end you were starting your travel on.

Edited July 10, 2013 by NanLaew

[wooloomooloo]

The Asian tourist market (Asians going to non-Asian destinations) isn't quite mature enough yet. The average Thai, Malaysian or Indonesian isn't up for the long weekend in Paris, rambling in the Trossachs or a Rhine cruise just yet but that is changing rapidly.

It will when they can expect a visa on arrival. Nothing to do with maturity.

[54321]

Don't prices reflect supply & demand? Presumably there is significantly more demand to fly to Thailand from Europe than the other way?

I suspect the numbers even out or Thailand would quickly become full!!

[bocceball1]

Can't speak about Europe or UK airfares....BUT what I do know is that BKK To San Francisco on Business class is approx. $3250 on United and Delta. Now if you book originating out of San Francisco to BKK, a business class ticket Is $6000 and Up. Been booking out of BKK for the last 10 years. So that should debunk the Thai Cartel, Conspiracy theories etc. ....The European airlines obviously have a different pricing mind set than the US airlines

[sustento]

There is no discriminatory tariff The fares reflect the demand on the route segment. As you know there are higher costs of flying to the EU.

I'm not aware of any "higher costs" that dont apply more on the outward leg from the EU than on the incoming leg to the EU, and for return flights the costs average out any way. So that would seem to be an invalid argument.

If you're flying FROM the UK the Airport Passenger Duty is added to your ticket price. If you're flying TO the UK it isn't.

[Tomtomtom69]

There is no discriminatory tariff The fares reflect the demand on the route segment. As you know there are higher costs of flying to the EU.

I'm not aware of any "higher costs" that dont apply more on the outward leg from the EU than on the incoming leg to the EU, and for return flights the costs average out any way. So that would seem to be an invalid argument.

As for the demand argument, this is clearly incorrect. Generally flights on the same dates simply cost more when originating from Thailand than when originating from the EU, yet the demand and occupancy are identical. That said, there is an element of expectation in the pricing: most people expect to pay more for tickets originating here and so the airlines are happy to comply. Add to that a dose of good old-fashioned Thai cartel pricing and perhaps some supplement for paying in a currency that isnt freely convertible/exportable and I think we have the answer.

This overpricing is not discriminatory though as everyone pays the same high price regardless of race colour or creed, at least as far as I know.

Demand for travel from Europe to Thailand is much higher than the other way round. Thais just don't travel like their Chinese, Japanese, even Vietnamese counterparts do...I have never seen a flight to/from Europe with a significant proportion of the passengers being Thais - the Europeans traveling to/from their home countries always outnumber Thais and then occasionally you might have a group of package tourists from say Taiwan, who lack direct flights to Europe from their country. What you say about occupancy is merely a reflection of travelers having purchased return tickets from Europe as well as Asian and a small number of western travelers that have purchased their tickets back home, with Thailand simply a transit country for their flights.

Flights originating in Thailand used to be cheaper than those originating in Europe (this was also the case with Australian flights) but in the last couple of years the tables have turned and now flights originating in Thailand tend to be more expensive. I agree that airlines take advantage of pricing though - Thais and resident foreigners expect to pay more, or at least don't mind paying more so the airlines bump up their prices. It's the same thing when it comes to flights between Australia and the USA. Flights from the USA to Australia are always cheaper than the other way round - Australians are simply prepared to pay more than Americans and you always have a few Aussies that justify this by stating that "they earn more than Americans anyway". I find this a futile argument and personally I'd be outraged to be paying so much more than everyone else for the same sorts of goods and services in Australia (airfares included) as everyone else just because "Aussies earn more", which is not necessarily true anyway.

[nahkit]

Well surely all those tourists go home at the end of their holiday so wouldn't the FROM demand equal the TO demand in the case of tourists? I'm assuming that the Asian and European tourists are travelling on the same flights/routes.

Precisely.

The argument that fares from Thailand are high because there is no demand for seats is just a heap of nonsense.

Think it through guys.

The European tourist buys a round-trip ticket so the assumption is correct that the passenger load on both outward and inward legs will be mostly the same when it comes to tourists. Accordingly, most of the seats FROM Bangkok will already be accounted for (by the returning tourist passenger) but that's the loss leader thus ensuring the remaining inbound seats are at a premium. The BKK-Europe traveler is paying extra to make up for the lower margins on the cheaper Europe-BKK round-trip traveler. If the Asian tourist (going to Europe) market was as big as the European tourist (going to Asia), the costs would be closer regardless of what end you were starting your travel on.

Sorry, but you are making the assumption that the European tourists are buying their tickets earlier than those travelling from Bangkok.

I just tried to make a booking, one starting from my point of origin and one starting from Bangkok (i.e. the reverse of the 1st booking). The one starting from Bangkok comes out at 250 pounds more. Same dates, same flights, booked within 5 mins of each other.

Edited July 11, 2013 by nahkit

[baboon]

Apologies for repeating myself from another thread, but I was quoted 51,000 Baht for a return to Newcastle on September 10, returning September 18. The other way round, same dates, same airline, same booking company was £535. Something stinks somewhere...

[NanLaew]

Well surely all those tourists go home at the end of their holiday so wouldn't the FROM demand equal the TO demand in the case of tourists? I'm assuming that the Asian and European tourists are travelling on the same flights/routes.

Precisely.

The argument that fares from Thailand are high because there is no demand for seats is just a heap of nonsense.

Think it through guys.

The European tourist buys a round-trip ticket so the assumption is correct that the passenger load on both outward and inward legs will be mostly the same when it comes to tourists. Accordingly, most of the seats FROM Bangkok will already be accounted for (by the returning tourist passenger) but that's the loss leader thus ensuring the remaining inbound seats are at a premium. The BKK-Europe traveler is paying extra to make up for the lower margins on the cheaper Europe-BKK round-trip traveler. If the Asian tourist (going to Europe) market was as big as the European tourist (going to Asia), the costs would be closer regardless of what end you were starting your travel on.

Sorry, but you are making the assumption that the European tourists are buying their tickets earlier than those travelling from Bangkok.

I just tried to make a booking, one starting from my point of origin and one starting from Bangkok (i.e. the reverse of the 1st booking). The one starting from Bangkok comes out at 250 pounds more. Same dates, same flights, booked within 5 mins of each other.

Not sure about anyone buying tickets earlier than others; the premise is that there are more round-trip tourists coming FROM Europe on every airline and their fares are discounted to get the seats sold. That's competition. The airline makes up the fiscal shortfall by charging more for the passenger, tourist or otherwise buying a round-trip TO Europe. That's trying to make a profit.

Your recent booking experiment doesn't indicate anything different.

[NanLaew]

Apologies for repeating myself from another thread, but I was quoted 51,000 Baht for a return to Newcastle on September 10, returning September 18. The other way round, same dates, same airline, same booking company was £535. Something stinks somewhere...

Your booking company maybe?

matrix farefinder indicates a BKK-NCL round-trip on the dates you require is 34,630 baht or about £770. That's KLM one-stop via Hamsterjam.

matrix farefinder indicates a NCL-BKK round-trip on the dates you require is £476. Same airline, stopover, etc.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Not sure about anyone buying tickets earlier than others; the premise is that there are more round-trip tourists coming FROM Europe on every airline and their fares are discounted to get the seats sold. That's competition. The airline makes up the fiscal shortfall by charging more for the passenger, tourist or otherwise buying a round-trip TO Europe. That's trying to make a profit.

Your recent booking experiment doesn't indicate anything different.

If they book 'round trip', the same number of passengers are travelling both ways.

The starting end makes no difference to any costs.

Edited July 11, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[KittenKong]

I'm not aware of any "higher costs" that dont apply more on the outward leg from the EU than on the incoming leg to the EU, and for return flights the costs average out any way. So that would seem to be an invalid argument.

If you're flying FROM the UK the Airport Passenger Duty is added to your ticket price. If you're flying TO the UK it isn't.

If you re-read what I wrote you will see that I said the same thing. The other point you seem to have missed is that on a return UK/Thailand or Thailand/UK journey one leg is invariably ex-UK and thus subject to the duty.

[KittenKong]

Demand for travel from Europe to Thailand is much higher than the other way round. Thais just don't travel like their Chinese, Japanese, even Vietnamese counterparts do...I have never seen a flight to/from Europe with a significant proportion of the passengers being Thais - ...

Who cares what colour the bum on the seat is, or in which direction the flight started? I'm sure the airlines dont. They are only interested in the total number of bums. (Nota: the reference to "bum" is in the British sense of "backside", widely used by airlines themselves, and not some detrimental reference to travellers.)

No, flights to/from Thailand are normally every bit as full or as empty in both directions (not least because the vast bulk of travellers buy return tickets), and given that fact any difference between ticket costs ex-EU or ex-Thailand cannot be explained by a difference in demand. There is none.

[stevenl]

Demand for travel from Europe to Thailand is much higher than the other way round. Thais just don't travel like their Chinese, Japanese, even Vietnamese counterparts do...I have never seen a flight to/from Europe with a significant proportion of the passengers being Thais - ...

Who cares what colour the bum on the seat is, or in which direction the flight started? I'm sure the airlines dont. They are only interested in the total number of bums. (Nota: the reference to "bum" is in the British sense of "backside", widely used by airlines themselves, and not some detrimental reference to travellers.)

No, flights to/from Thailand are normally every bit as full or as empty in both directions (not least because the vast bulk of travellers buy return tickets), and given that fact any difference between ticket costs ex-EU or ex-Thailand cannot be explained by a difference in demand. There is none.

Of course it can, since the greatest demand originates in the EU/UK etc.

[nong38]

It does seem that its more expensive to travel to Europe from Thailand than the other way round, perhaps Europe is seen as more of a destination than Thailand. I was told in the UK once that once you get to July ( you are in the UK holliday season that prices go up) my question to the travel operator of "how many UK familes holiday in Thailand then?" went unanswered.

High season in the UK is often low season here but you still get charged the premium, like heads I win and tails you lose.

With UK debit card I can book a flight from here to the UK and back through UK travel agents, but, even so I noticed that using the same dates it was more expensive from this end ( BKK ).

With all these tie-ups with Airlines into Star Alliance etc it doers make you wonder if they know what a cartel is?