Protesters call on Thai Army to stage 'peaceful coup'

[whybother]

I agree with Jayboy about the importance of an invigorated Democrat party, Alongkon spoke the truth about the need for reform of the party

For policy, education reforms, taxes on idle land, land reform, community rights, come to mind.

The irony is the Democrat Party actually has many more branches than Pheua Thai, but all important decision making in recent years has rested in Apisit's inner circle. A situation that must change. And indeed the Democrats lately have been seen to be reaching out to the people more. 

 

I agree, but they wont change- the need for them to modernize has been clear to see for 15 years but the old pig headed dinosaurs in charge still believe they have the god given right to everything they want, without pesky interference's like elections getting in the way.

Is any political party in Thailand "modern"?

With 30+% of the vote, I don't think the Democrats need to reform.

Improve? Absolutely.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Theoutsider]

Wouldn't work, half the population would have to go.

[jamhar]

A post with messed up quotes has been deleted.

Come on Scott, tell us how you REALLY feel.

[Scott]

A post with messed up quotes has been deleted.

Come on Scott, tell us how you REALLY feel.

Sorry, but that is the honest to God truth. Just too hard to figure out who is saying what when the quote function doesn't work right.

[Thai at Heart]

How can Thailand ever become a proper democracy without going through several cycles of government change via fair and honest campaigns and elections. Give Democracy a chance. Other countries in Asia such as Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, have done it. So can Thailand.

There is far too much to lose by genuinely giving democracy a chance in this country. The army loses, business loses their influence etc etc. This is a managed democracy. I sometimes thing that the Chinese looked at Thailand and came up with the system for Hong Kong after looking at Thailand.

Yes, many generals, business bosses and corrupt politicians will lose. Who will gain? The people.

The people should not be afraid of the government. The government should be afraid of the people.

Nice platitudes.. There ate plenty more where they came from and they have guns. Los lots of guns

[moradave]

How can Thailand ever become a proper democracy without going through several cycles of government change via fair and honest campaigns and elections. Give Democracy a chance. Other countries in Asia such as Singapore, Malaysia, Taiwan, have done it. So can Thailand.

There is far too much to lose by genuinely giving democracy a chance in this country. The army loses, business loses their influence etc etc. This is a managed democracy. I sometimes thing that the Chinese looked at Thailand and came up with the system for Hong Kong after looking at Thailand.

Yes, many generals, business bosses and corrupt politicians will lose. Who will gain? The people.

The people should not be afraid of the government. The government should be afraid of the people.

Nice platitudes.. There ate plenty more where they came from and they have guns. Los lots of guns

Oh they sure do. So did the British in 1776, and the Japanese in the early 1940's. But the people survived and overcame all obstacles. I think the major reason the PTP won in last election was Jutaporn's willingness, in 2010, to stand up to the guns along with thousands of protesting Red Shirts. It was a horrible price to pay, but the people prevailed. I don't want them to pay such a heavy price again.

[jayboy]

I agree with Jayboy about the importance of an invigorated Democrat party, Alongkon spoke the truth about the need for reform of the party

For policy, education reforms, taxes on idle land, land reform, community rights, come to mind.

The irony is the Democrat Party actually has many more branches than Pheua Thai, but all important decision making in recent years has rested in Apisit's inner circle. A situation that must change. And indeed the Democrats lately have been seen to be reaching out to the people more.

I agree, but they wont change- the need for them to modernize has been clear to see for 15 years but the old pig headed dinosaurs in charge still believe they have the god given right to everything they want, without pesky interference's like elections getting in the way.

One of the great positive aspects of representative democracy is that the prospect of power concentrates the minds of politicians wonderfully.There may have been some stumbling and hesitation but the Democrats genuinely want to win office at the next General Election.Sometimes political parties do actually go nuts like the British Labour Party under Michael Foot or the US Republican Party at the moment.But eventually they come to their senses and take steps that give them credibility.In Thailand the Democrat Party has not yet reached this parlous state and indeed still has the loyalties of many sections of society.

What is more there are many educated middle class people currently in the PTP camp who are in fact natural Democrats and could be tempted back.What these people dislike at the moment is the incestuous relationship the Democrat Party currently has with the military, extreme royalists,big business and the old establishment.It wasn't always like this and to modern minded Thais it just seems so old fashioned.I'm not saying these middle level people are in the majority but it's a very significant group not much commented on in this forum.The mantra from some is that anyone who expresses reservations is simply a Thaksin apologist.That may add to the gaiety and batter of a forum but it doesn't reflect reality.

I understand why Abhisit attracts loyalty but he simply isn't a good enough politician to take the reorganisation of his party forward.He's a clever man but that isn't enough.

Edited July 12, 2013 by jayboy

[Noistar]

I agree with Jayboy about the importance of an invigorated Democrat party, Alongkon spoke the truth about the need for reform of the party

For policy, education reforms, taxes on idle land, land reform, community rights, come to mind.

The irony is the Democrat Party actually has many more branches than Pheua Thai, but all important decision making in recent years has rested in Apisit's inner circle. A situation that must change. And indeed the Democrats lately have been seen to be reaching out to the people more.

I agree, but they wont change- the need for them to modernize has been clear to see for 15 years but the old pig headed dinosaurs in charge still believe they have the god given right to everything they want, without pesky interference's like elections getting in the way.

One of the great positive aspects of representative democracy is that the prospect of power concentrates the minds of politicians wonderfully.There may have been some stumbling and hesitation but the Democrats genuinely want to win office at the next General Election.Sometimes political parties do actually go nuts like the British Labour Party under Michael Foot or the US Republican Party at the moment.But eventually they come to their senses and take steps that give them credibility.In Thailand the Democrat Party has not yet reached this parlous state and indeed still has the loyalties of many sections of society.

What is more there are many educated middle class people currently in the PTP camp who are in fact natural Democrats and could be tempted back.What these people dislike at the moment is the incestuous relationship the Democrat Party currently has with the military, extreme royalists,big business and the old establishment.It wasn't always like this and to modern minded Thais it just seems so old fashioned.I'm not saying these middle level people are in the majority but it's a very significant group not much commented on in this forum.The mantra from some is that anyone who expresses reservations is simply a Thaksin apologist.That may add to the gaiety and batter of a forum but it doesn't reflect reality.

I understand why Abhisit attracts loyalty but he simply isn't a good enough politician to take the reorganisation of his party forward.He's a clever man but that isn't enough.

He's a Democrat, not just in name but someone who believes in parliamentary democracy.

Everyone can see the contempt with which the present Government treats democracy.

Thaksin apologist? I think your colors are clearly visible

[Credo]

Jayboy makes a lot of sense. I was a diehard Democrat going back to the days of Chuan Leepai. I detested Thaksin and his then Thai Rak Thai Party.

The biggest mistake made in recent history was when the Supreme Court (or whichever branch it was) determined that he could become PM, in spite of some pretty in-your-face violations of law. I gave up. The coup, however, was a turning point for me. Regardless of what he had done, he was clearly the people's choice. It was clear that it was just a different set of noses in the troughs and a lot more crumbs for the common person.

Democracy is who gets elected and he and his family and his party have it in the bag for now. That will change, though.

I never understood how the Philippines voted Imelda Marcos into the senate, but hey, if that's who they wanted.....

[OzMick]

I agree with Jayboy about the importance of an invigorated Democrat party, Alongkon spoke the truth about the need for reform of the party

For policy, education reforms, taxes on idle land, land reform, community rights, come to mind.

The irony is the Democrat Party actually has many more branches than Pheua Thai, but all important decision making in recent years has rested in Apisit's inner circle. A situation that must change. And indeed the Democrats lately have been seen to be reaching out to the people more.

I agree, but they wont change- the need for them to modernize has been clear to see for 15 years but the old pig headed dinosaurs in charge still believe they have the god given right to everything they want, without pesky interference's like elections getting in the way.

One of the great positive aspects of representative democracy is that the prospect of power concentrates the minds of politicians wonderfully.There may have been some stumbling and hesitation but the Democrats genuinely want to win office at the next General Election.Sometimes political parties do actually go nuts like the British Labour Party under Michael Foot or the US Republican Party at the moment.But eventually they come to their senses and take steps that give them credibility.In Thailand the Democrat Party has not yet reached this parlous state and indeed still has the loyalties of many sections of society.

What is more there are many educated middle class people currently in the PTP camp who are in fact natural Democrats and could be tempted back.What these people dislike at the moment is the incestuous relationship the Democrat Party currently has with the military, extreme royalists,big business and the old establishment.It wasn't always like this and to modern minded Thais it just seems so old fashioned.I'm not saying these middle level people are in the majority but it's a very significant group not much commented on in this forum.The mantra from some is that anyone who expresses reservations is simply a Thaksin apologist.That may add to the gaiety and batter of a forum but it doesn't reflect reality.

I understand why Abhisit attracts loyalty but he simply isn't a good enough politician to take the reorganisation of his party forward.He's a clever man but that isn't enough.

You just can't stop, can you? In a thread about calls for a coup against the PTP government, you continually change the subject to the faults of the Democrat party and how they should reform.

And refuse to even broach reforms and/or change of leadership of the autocratic party currently in power. Or how they are causing huge financial losses which grow larger each day, and which they refuse to address, let alone acknowledge their extent. This is what may well trigger a coup - flagrant mismanagement coupled with unrepentant corruption that a patriotic minded military might see as reason to act.

[Thai at Heart]

I agree with Jayboy about the importance of an invigorated Democrat party, Alongkon spoke the truth about the need for reform of the party

For policy, education reforms, taxes on idle land, land reform, community rights, come to mind.

The irony is the Democrat Party actually has many more branches than Pheua Thai, but all important decision making in recent years has rested in Apisit's inner circle. A situation that must change. And indeed the Democrats lately have been seen to be reaching out to the people more.

I agree, but they wont change- the need for them to modernize has been clear to see for 15 years but the old pig headed dinosaurs in charge still believe they have the god given right to everything they want, without pesky interference's like elections getting in the way.

One of the great positive aspects of representative democracy is that the prospect of power concentrates the minds of politicians wonderfully.There may have been some stumbling and hesitation but the Democrats genuinely want to win office at the next General Election.Sometimes political parties do actually go nuts like the British Labour Party under Michael Foot or the US Republican Party at the moment.But eventually they come to their senses and take steps that give them credibility.In Thailand the Democrat Party has not yet reached this parlous state and indeed still has the loyalties of many sections of society.

What is more there are many educated middle class people currently in the PTP camp who are in fact natural Democrats and could be tempted back.What these people dislike at the moment is the incestuous relationship the Democrat Party currently has with the military, extreme royalists,big business and the old establishment.It wasn't always like this and to modern minded Thais it just seems so old fashioned.I'm not saying these middle level people are in the majority but it's a very significant group not much commented on in this forum.The mantra from some is that anyone who expresses reservations is simply a Thaksin apologist.That may add to the gaiety and batter of a forum but it doesn't reflect reality.

I understand why Abhisit attracts loyalty but he simply isn't a good enough politician to take the reorganisation of his party forward.He's a clever man but that isn't enough.

This country needs to come up with a way to get 20mn people who live hand to mouth and transition from a semi agrarian society pretty damn quick.

Nowhere has it been achieved without serious social problems.

[jayboy]

You just can't stop, can you? In a thread about calls for a coup against the PTP government, you continually change the subject to the faults of the Democrat party and how they should reform.

And refuse to even broach reforms and/or change of leadership of the autocratic party currently in power. Or how they are causing huge financial losses which grow larger each day, and which they refuse to address, let alone acknowledge their extent. This is what may well trigger a coup - flagrant mismanagement coupled with unrepentant corruption that a patriotic minded military might see as reason to act.

I am not entirely sure what your objections are based on.No reasonable person, certainly not in mainstream Thai politics or even in the military, is arguing that a coup now is the appropriate way of dealing with the government's shortcomings.The argument therefore is that the main opposition party, namely the Democrats, must reform itself so there is a fighting chance of winning the next general election.This is entirely relevant to the thread's topic and some interesting comments have been made by members of different political views.

Therefore the discussion is entirely relevant and one must either assume you either do not understand the argument ( hence my explanation above) or that you simply resent unpalatable truths being aired.If the latter I am afraid few would regard that of any significance.

[Somtamnication]

Can someone please cut my finger, peacefully? <deleted>

[Noistar]

You just can't stop, can you? In a thread about calls for a coup against the PTP government, you continually change the subject to the faults of the Democrat party and how they should reform.

And refuse to even broach reforms and/or change of leadership of the autocratic party currently in power. Or how they are causing huge financial losses which grow larger each day, and which they refuse to address, let alone acknowledge their extent. This is what may well trigger a coup - flagrant mismanagement coupled with unrepentant corruption that a patriotic minded military might see as reason to act.

I am not entirely sure what your objections are based on.No reasonable person, certainly not in mainstream Thai politics or even in the military, is arguing that a coup now is the appropriate way of dealing with the government's shortcomings.The argument therefore is that the main opposition party, namely the Democrats, must reform itself so there is a fighting chance of winning the next general election.This is entirely relevant to the thread's topic and some interesting comments have been made by members of different political views.

Therefore the discussion is entirely relevant and one must either assume you either do not understand the argument ( hence my explanation above) or that you simply resent unpalatable truths being aired.If the latter I am afraid few would regard that of any significance.

The points you raise about the Democrat party are of course relevant to how things can change AFTER the next election.

However, at this stage I believe the relevant point is how to keep the present Government from destroying Thailand BEFORE the next election.

Clearly, even if the Democrats were fully reformed and had the necessary electoral backing, they are totally impotent.

This Government is ignoring democratic procedure NOW and uses its parliamentary majority to essentially do what it wants.

Humblest opinion etc

[jpinx]

Maybe Thailand could learn a few tricks from Turkey

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23302046

[OzMick]

You just can't stop, can you? In a thread about calls for a coup against the PTP government, you continually change the subject to the faults of the Democrat party and how they should reform.

And refuse to even broach reforms and/or change of leadership of the autocratic party currently in power. Or how they are causing huge financial losses which grow larger each day, and which they refuse to address, let alone acknowledge their extent. This is what may well trigger a coup - flagrant mismanagement coupled with unrepentant corruption that a patriotic minded military might see as reason to act.

I am not entirely sure what your objections are based on.No reasonable person, certainly not in mainstream Thai politics or even in the military, is arguing that a coup now is the appropriate way of dealing with the government's shortcomings.The argument therefore is that the main opposition party, namely the Democrats, must reform itself so there is a fighting chance of winning the next general election.This is entirely relevant to the thread's topic and some interesting comments have been made by members of different political views.

Therefore the discussion is entirely relevant and one must either assume you either do not understand the argument ( hence my explanation above) or that you simply resent unpalatable truths being aired.If the latter I am afraid few would regard that of any significance.

Of course you don't understand. Read the subject of the thread - it is EXACTLY what you deny; some people are calling for a coup, and others think it IS a solution to a seriously flawed government. But instead of ANY discussion of those flaws or reforms to avoid a coup, you only wish to discuss the Opposition. The only way to prevent " unpalatable truths being aired" is to drag the thread away from the subject. Please stop.

NB Opposition and Election are NOT the subject. Coup and government are.

[jpeg]

You just can't stop, can you? In a thread about calls for a coup against the PTP government, you continually change the subject to the faults of the Democrat party and how they should reform.

And refuse to even broach reforms and/or change of leadership of the autocratic party currently in power. Or how they are causing huge financial losses which grow larger each day, and which they refuse to address, let alone acknowledge their extent. This is what may well trigger a coup - flagrant mismanagement coupled with unrepentant corruption that a patriotic minded military might see as reason to act.

I am not entirely sure what your objections are based on.No reasonable person, certainly not in mainstream Thai politics or even in the military, is arguing that a coup now is the appropriate way of dealing with the government's shortcomings.The argument therefore is that the main opposition party, namely the Democrats, must reform itself so there is a fighting chance of winning the next general election.This is entirely relevant to the thread's topic and some interesting comments have been made by members of different political views.

Therefore the discussion is entirely relevant and one must either assume you either do not understand the argument ( hence my explanation above) or that you simply resent unpalatable truths being aired.If the latter I am afraid few would regard that of any significance.

The points you raise about the Democrat party are of course relevant to how things can change AFTER the next election.

However, at this stage I believe the relevant point is how to keep the present Government from destroying Thailand BEFORE the next election.

Clearly, even if the Democrats were fully reformed and had the necessary electoral backing, they are totally impotent.

This Government is ignoring democratic procedure NOW and uses its parliamentary majority to essentially do what it wants.

Humblest opinion etc

Then it is up to the Thai citizenry (not us) to have to make their voices heard and go through what every other fully fledged democracy went through to get there, and from that which I have experienced in my many years here, don't hold your breath.

Calling on Papa to step in whenever which soever maladministration does something some particular group doesn't like just won't, or shouldn't, cut it in this day and age. End of.

[jayboy]

Of course you don't understand. Read the subject of the thread - it is EXACTLY what you deny; some people are calling for a coup, and others think it IS a solution to a seriously flawed government. But instead of ANY discussion of those flaws or reforms to avoid a coup, you only wish to discuss the Opposition. The only way to prevent " unpalatable truths being aired" is to drag the thread away from the subject. Please stop.

NB Opposition and Election are NOT the subject. Coup and government are.

I cannot see that anyone other than yourself has become agitated at the direction this thread has taken.Most understand that those now calling for a coup are unrepresentative extremists typified by the Pitak Siam group, and it's extremely unlikely there will be a crossover into mainstream politics.Nevertheless most also understand there are serious and widespread criticisms of the government particularly relating to the rice pledging scheme.The realistic chance to depose this government without inflicting the damage of a military coup is to remove it in a general election.To this end the Democrat Party needs to make itself more attractive.All connected then, on topic and relevant.

[OzMick]

Of course you don't understand. Read the subject of the thread - it is EXACTLY what you deny; some people are calling for a coup, and others think it IS a solution to a seriously flawed government. But instead of ANY discussion of those flaws or reforms to avoid a coup, you only wish to discuss the Opposition. The only way to prevent " unpalatable truths being aired" is to drag the thread away from the subject. Please stop.

NB Opposition and Election are NOT the subject. Coup and government are.

I cannot see that anyone other than yourself has become agitated at the direction this thread has taken.Most understand that those now calling for a coup are unrepresentative extremists typified by the Pitak Siam group, and it's extremely unlikely there will be a crossover into mainstream politics.Nevertheless most also understand there are serious and widespread criticisms of the government particularly relating to the rice pledging scheme.The realistic chance to depose this government without inflicting the damage of a military coup is to remove it in a general election.To this end the Democrat Party needs to make itself more attractive.All connected then, on topic and relevant.

Glad you agree that PTP is not perfect. Perhaps you would like to share with us you views on reforms to it, similar to your suggestions re the Democrats, as to how it could be made more democratic in nature, dispensing with a leader carrying too much baggage, facing up to its failures, and admitting its mistakes which have caused detriment of the country? Perhaps not.

If the government party is unwilling to reform, and to cease causing huge losses while enriching itself, perhaps we could quantify the level of damage they should be allowed to inflict before a coup becomes a viable option? If a B2.2 trillion loan is estimated to take 50 years to repay, and the rice scam losses approach that, would a coup not be preferable?

[jayboy]

Glad you agree that PTP is not perfect. Perhaps you would like to share with us you views on reforms to it, similar to your suggestions re the Democrats, as to how it could be made more democratic in nature, dispensing with a leader carrying too much baggage, facing up to its failures, and admitting its mistakes which have caused detriment of the country? Perhaps not.

If the government party is unwilling to reform, and to cease causing huge losses while enriching itself, perhaps we could quantify the level of damage they should be allowed to inflict before a coup becomes a viable option? If a B2.2 trillion loan is estimated to take 50 years to repay, and the rice scam losses approach that, would a coup not be preferable?

If the current government is as flawed as you suggest no doubt the Thai people will make its opinion clear at the next general election.

However there is something distinctly odd in your preoccupation with the reform of a party which, along with its previous incarnations, has been the most successful election winning machine in Thai history.No doubt it could be improved but surely it isn't even a matter of controversy to point out that the Democrats are in a worse state by far.That's why there's a need to detoxify the brand, remove the incompetent and disgraced leadership and present a credible set of policies.I have already noted there would be huge support for any such reformed Democrat party, and an election victory would be healthy for Thai democracy - and greatly lessen the chance of damaging coups by the military and their shadowy backers.

[Noistar]

You just can't stop, can you? In a thread about calls for a coup against the PTP government, you continually change the subject to the faults of the Democrat party and how they should reform.

And refuse to even broach reforms and/or change of leadership of the autocratic party currently in power. Or how they are causing huge financial losses which grow larger each day, and which they refuse to address, let alone acknowledge their extent. This is what may well trigger a coup - flagrant mismanagement coupled with unrepentant corruption that a patriotic minded military might see as reason to act.

I am not entirely sure what your objections are based on.No reasonable person, certainly not in mainstream Thai politics or even in the military, is arguing that a coup now is the appropriate way of dealing with the government's shortcomings.The argument therefore is that the main opposition party, namely the Democrats, must reform itself so there is a fighting chance of winning the next general election.This is entirely relevant to the thread's topic and some interesting comments have been made by members of different political views.

Therefore the discussion is entirely relevant and one must either assume you either do not understand the argument ( hence my explanation above) or that you simply resent unpalatable truths being aired.If the latter I am afraid few would regard that of any significance.

The points you raise about the Democrat party are of course relevant to how things can change AFTER the next election.

However, at this stage I believe the relevant point is how to keep the present Government from destroying Thailand BEFORE the next election.

Clearly, even if the Democrats were fully reformed and had the necessary electoral backing, they are totally impotent.

This Government is ignoring democratic procedure NOW and uses its parliamentary majority to essentially do what it wants.

Humblest opinion etc

Then it is up to the Thai citizenry (not us) to have to make their voices heard and go through what every other fully fledged democracy went through to get there, and from that which I have experienced in my many years here, don't hold your breath.

Calling on Papa to step in whenever which soever maladministration does something some particular group doesn't like just won't, or shouldn't, cut it in this day and age. End of.

You'll wait a long time for Thailand to even acknowledge there is a tomorrow.

Interesting that you appear to advocate the answer is to let Thailand repeat the problems of existing countries, rather than express a view that they can take a short cut and LEARN. They ought to be good at learning, considering they spend all their time going round and round and round rather than moving forward. But then again, they only go round and round so they can repeat their mistakes.

At least they have the watchful military to bring the school children in line when they go too far.

Coup in Thailand means exercising common sense. Shame the word causes so much grief to people who are not "the Thai citizenry".

[Noistar]

Glad you agree that PTP is not perfect. Perhaps you would like to share with us you views on reforms to it, similar to your suggestions re the Democrats, as to how it could be made more democratic in nature, dispensing with a leader carrying too much baggage, facing up to its failures, and admitting its mistakes which have caused detriment of the country? Perhaps not.

If the government party is unwilling to reform, and to cease causing huge losses while enriching itself, perhaps we could quantify the level of damage they should be allowed to inflict before a coup becomes a viable option? If a B2.2 trillion loan is estimated to take 50 years to repay, and the rice scam losses approach that, would a coup not be preferable?

If the current government is as flawed as you suggest no doubt the Thai people will make its opinion clear at the next general election.

However there is something distinctly odd in your preoccupation with the reform of a party which, along with its previous incarnations, has been the most successful election winning machine in Thai history.No doubt it could be improved but surely it isn't even a matter of controversy to point out that the Democrats are in a worse state by far.That's why there's a need to detoxify the brand, remove the incompetent and disgraced leadership and present a credible set of policies.I have already noted there would be huge support for any such reformed Democrat party, and an election victory would be healthy for Thai democracy - and greatly lessen the chance of damaging coups by the military and their shadowy backers.

Leave the Democrats out of the equation

The current Government which this topic relates to, is the one which in whatever incarnation produces the same problems.

The democracy is fledgling to put it mildly. Winning elections does not depend on policies, but on red or not red. I doubt anyone in the north bothers to acquaint themselves with policies. Not due to ignorance, but to apathy.

Until then, arguments about the country wanting PTP/Thaksin is flawed until the electorate in the North can engage with the electoral system and thereby democracy.

Until then, the reds have an automatic 'win' in any election.

All they need to do is grow up, think of Thailand and move forward.

Dream on you red apologist. Democracy is more than winning elections

Humblest etc

[jpinx]

The government is made up of *all* the members, not only the "winning" party's members. Maybe the current opposition parties need to work harder at winning the hearts and minds of the people by defending them from the vagaries of the party in power. That might produce the result they want so badly when the polls are run again.

But then again -- the opposition are so deeply mired in the same mess it's hard to see how anyone will take them seriously -- apart from themselves

[OzMick]

Glad you agree that PTP is not perfect. Perhaps you would like to share with us you views on reforms to it, similar to your suggestions re the Democrats, as to how it could be made more democratic in nature, dispensing with a leader carrying too much baggage, facing up to its failures, and admitting its mistakes which have caused detriment of the country? Perhaps not.

If the government party is unwilling to reform, and to cease causing huge losses while enriching itself, perhaps we could quantify the level of damage they should be allowed to inflict before a coup becomes a viable option? If a B2.2 trillion loan is estimated to take 50 years to repay, and the rice scam losses approach that, would a coup not be preferable?

If the current government is as flawed as you suggest no doubt the Thai people will make its opinion clear at the next general election.

However there is something distinctly odd in your preoccupation with the reform of a party which, along with its previous incarnations, has been the most successful election winning machine in Thai history.No doubt it could be improved but surely it isn't even a matter of controversy to point out that the Democrats are in a worse state by far.That's why there's a need to detoxify the brand, remove the incompetent and disgraced leadership and present a credible set of policies.I have already noted there would be huge support for any such reformed Democrat party, and an election victory would be healthy for Thai democracy - and greatly lessen the chance of damaging coups by the military and their shadowy backers.

Amazing! - your response summarised:

PTP is not perfect but close too it.

Back to the denigrating the Democrats.

And you have difficulty understanding my preoccupation with a party which has accumulated estimated losses now approaching a trillion baht and ever increasing in a continuing policy. But this is alright because they won an election! Economic development might be set back 50 years, but look how healthy their democracy might be, assuming there is no slide into dictatorship.

Edited July 14, 2013 by OzMick

[OzMick]

The government is made up of *all* the members, not only the "winning" party's members. Maybe the current opposition parties need to work harder at winning the hearts and minds of the people by defending them from the vagaries of the party in power. That might produce the result they want so badly when the polls are run again.

But then again -- the opposition are so deeply mired in the same mess it's hard to see how anyone will take them seriously -- apart from themselves

Could you please explain how a minority opposition defends the people from the vagaries (nice word for corruption) of the party in power, except by publicising such "vagaries"; which seems to be proceeding on a daily basis.

Since JBoy is reluctant to discuss the issue, how much economic damage do you consider acceptable before a government's corruption/ineptitude is stopped?

Edited July 14, 2013 by OzMick

[jpinx]

The government is made up of *all* the members, not only the "winning" party's members. Maybe the current opposition parties need to work harder at winning the hearts and minds of the people by defending them from the vagaries of the party in power. That might produce the result they want so badly when the polls are run again.

But then again -- the opposition are so deeply mired in the same mess it's hard to see how anyone will take them seriously -- apart from themselves

Could you please explain how a minority opposition defends the people from the vagaries (nice word for corruption) of the party in power, except by publicising such "vagaries"; which seems to be proceeding on a daily basis.

Since JBoy is reluctant to discuss the issue, how much economic damage do you consider acceptable before a government's corruption/ineptitude is stopped?

Look how bad it got in Iceland before effective action was taken.........

[jayboy]

Amazing! - your response summarised:

PTP is not perfect but close too it.

Back to the denigrating the Democrats.

And you have difficulty understanding my preoccupation with a party which has accumulated estimated losses now approaching a trillion baht and ever increasing in a continuing policy. But this is alright because they won an election! Economic development might be set back 50 years, but look how healthy their democracy might be, assuming there is no slide into dictatorship.

Please pay closer attention.I did not say that the PTP was perfect, far from it.My point was that it has become a formidable organisation in winning elections and there are a variety of reasons for this. In contrast the Democrat Party is in disarray and with an appalling record in recent national elections.This is important because Thais must learn to debate their differences in a democratic framework, and not resort to absurd coup fantasies( your problem it seems) or on the other side threaten the cities with red mobs.Simply won't do.

I do not really understand the rest of your post which veers into incoherence. If you are saying a coup is needed because of the losses under the rice price pledging scheme, that simply puts you squarely in the ranks of the extreme reactionaries.In any case I have made my points politely and clearly, and perhaps we should end on that note.

[OzMick]

Amazing! - your response summarised:

PTP is not perfect but close too it.

Back to the denigrating the Democrats.

And you have difficulty understanding my preoccupation with a party which has accumulated estimated losses now approaching a trillion baht and ever increasing in a continuing policy. But this is alright because they won an election! Economic development might be set back 50 years, but look how healthy their democracy might be, assuming there is no slide into dictatorship.

Please pay closer attention.I did not say that the PTP was perfect, far from it.My point was that it has become a formidable organisation in winning elections and there are a variety of reasons for this. In contrast the Democrat Party is in disarray and with an appalling record in recent national elections.This is important because Thais must learn to debate their differences in a democratic framework, and not resort to absurd coup fantasies( your problem it seems) or on the other side threaten the cities with red mobs.Simply won't do.

I do not really understand the rest of your post which veers into incoherence. If you are saying a coup is needed because of the losses under the rice price pledging scheme, that simply puts you squarely in the ranks of the extreme reactionaries.In any case I have made my points politely and clearly, and perhaps we should end on that note.

My apologies. I forgot that academics in ivory towers don't need employment, education, infrastructure and other basic necessities of a modern life when they can have ethereal concepts to evaluate and quibble over. Meanwhile, the "extreme reactionaries" who would like these essentials of life improved become "agitated" over seeing their countries resources plundered and wasted, are asking just how much should we tolerate before lowering our democratic expectations and ending the waste/theft.

There was nothing incoherent about the question but I will simplify it for you. Just how much corruption and/or incompetence is enough? A trillion baht? 2 trillion and 50 years of reduced economic development?

[jayboy]

Amazing! - your response summarised:

PTP is not perfect but close too it.

Back to the denigrating the Democrats.

And you have difficulty understanding my preoccupation with a party which has accumulated estimated losses now approaching a trillion baht and ever increasing in a continuing policy. But this is alright because they won an election! Economic development might be set back 50 years, but look how healthy their democracy might be, assuming there is no slide into dictatorship.

Please pay closer attention.I did not say that the PTP was perfect, far from it.My point was that it has become a formidable organisation in winning elections and there are a variety of reasons for this. In contrast the Democrat Party is in disarray and with an appalling record in recent national elections.This is important because Thais must learn to debate their differences in a democratic framework, and not resort to absurd coup fantasies( your problem it seems) or on the other side threaten the cities with red mobs.Simply won't do.

I do not really understand the rest of your post which veers into incoherence. If you are saying a coup is needed because of the losses under the rice price pledging scheme, that simply puts you squarely in the ranks of the extreme reactionaries.In any case I have made my points politely and clearly, and perhaps we should end on that note.

My apologies. I forgot that academics in ivory towers don't need employment, education, infrastructure and other basic necessities of a modern life when they can have ethereal concepts to evaluate and quibble over. Meanwhile, the "extreme reactionaries" who would like these essentials of life improved become "agitated" over seeing their countries resources plundered and wasted, are asking just how much should we tolerate before lowering our democratic expectations and ending the waste/theft.

There was nothing incoherent about the question but I will simplify it for you. Just how much corruption and/or incompetence is enough? A trillion baht? 2 trillion and 50 years of reduced economic development?

I am afraid your latest offering does not dissuade me of my earlier decision.My points were made clearly and you are now in the realm of hysteria.

[jaidam]

Glad you agree that PTP is not perfect. Perhaps you would like to share with us you views on reforms to it, similar to your suggestions re the Democrats, as to how it could be made more democratic in nature, dispensing with a leader carrying too much baggage, facing up to its failures, and admitting its mistakes which have caused detriment of the country? Perhaps not.

If the government party is unwilling to reform, and to cease causing huge losses while enriching itself, perhaps we could quantify the level of damage they should be allowed to inflict before a coup becomes a viable option? If a B2.2 trillion loan is estimated to take 50 years to repay, and the rice scam losses approach that, would a coup not be preferable?

If the current government is as flawed as you suggest no doubt the Thai people will make its opinion clear at the next general election.

However there is something distinctly odd in your preoccupation with the reform of a party which, along with its previous incarnations, has been the most successful election winning machine in Thai history.No doubt it could be improved but surely it isn't even a matter of controversy to point out that the Democrats are in a worse state by far.That's why there's a need to detoxify the brand, remove the incompetent and disgraced leadership and present a credible set of policies.I have already noted there would be huge support for any such reformed Democrat party, and an election victory would be healthy for Thai democracy - and greatly lessen the chance of damaging coups by the military and their shadowy backers.

It is hard to quantify the damage that Phua Thai has inflicted on Thailand. As well as the rice schemes direct financial loss there is now the issue that nobody here or abroad trusts the freshness or safety of Thai rice. That will take a long time to remedy, and for Thailand to regain its worlds no1 exporter may never be achieved.

On other fronts there is now no law in Thailand against perjury. Before PTP's latest rule it was defined as lying in court. Simple. However after Yingluck's asset concealment case where it was agreed that she lied in court but didn't commit perjury because she didn't stand to directly gain financially(although of course she did). The ramification of this will affect any future court case where the defendant is able to lie his pants off thus making a mockery of the justice system.

Govt ministers are free and able to tell lies about the economy like Kittirat did, dealing a further blow to investor confidence.

Now we hear that a deal has been cut with the military to allow TS a free return to take up the reigns at the crown Property bureau.

At what stage in this decline of a country a coup is justified isn't clear, but the onus is certainly on PTP to now start governing for the citizens benefit or they will only have themselves to blame.