Copy of Schindler's list up for sale on eBay

[Scott]

It's probably not fair, but I think the poster did a fairly good job of defending himself. He seemed to do it without your help, but hey if you feel all warm and fuzzy on the band wagon, just jump on.

I think this discussion should probably end here.

[lemoncake]

I do not really understand, may be someone can clarify it.

OP says copy of the list is for sale and its original, but also have lists on display in museums.

So how many copies of the list are there? i do not mean copy as in fakes, but actual copies?

From my understanding, list was written at the time back in WW2, why would they be more than 1? and if there are more than one, was it written by the same person or copied later?

[Payboy]

Opening bid must be 93 Million Baht........try explaining that to a Thai.

They could plug it as the original HFC menu.

[Credo]

I don't actually know how many lists there are, but chances are there is more than one. The technology for making copies was limited at the time, so I am guessing that either carbon copies were made or they were re-typed.

I am pretty sure it was as simple as Schindler giving them a list of names and the Nazi's saying "yeah, ok". I would guess that as they left they had to have the names and probably when they were checked along the way.

But in reality, I don't know.

[lemoncake]

I don't actually know how many lists there are, but chances are there is more than one. The technology for making copies was limited at the time, so I am guessing that either carbon copies were made or they were re-typed.

I am pretty sure it was as simple as Schindler giving them a list of names and the Nazi's saying "yeah, ok". I would guess that as they left they had to have the names and probably when they were checked along the way.

But in reality, I don't know.

I thought, Schindler was just requesting more workers and names were added to the list as they were "delivered"

Carbon copy is a possibility but then i would have thought it would make it total of 2, but OP already said 3. One is Israel, One in USA and One for sale here

[Scott]

When making carbon copies, you can make more than 1. I worked in an office and there were always 7 copies -- 1 original and 6 carbon copies. The last one was not always the best, though.

[lemoncake]

When making carbon copies, you can make more than 1. I worked in an office and there were always 7 copies -- 1 original and 6 carbon copies. The last one was not always the best, though.

True, but we are talking about more than 60 years ago. i doubt carbon copy paper was developed enough to copy 3 pages, not even sure they had it back then.

But if thats the case, should not the ink be blue and smudged a little?

And also what copy is for sale here? 2nd, 3rd, 1st? how many are there?

I wonder who would be able to shed more light, as its really an interesting point i think.

Edited July 21, 2013 by lemoncake

[Scott]

Oh, boy, I am out of my league here. An earlier poster, Wealth, seems to know more about this than I do. Perhaps he, or some others with knowledge about the lists can answer.

[wealth]

found the women list here and it looks more authentic than the list with men http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/stories/pdf/shindlers_list.pdf even the letterhead is rightly pronounced.

Unfortunately the woman as mentioned on CNN with #16 on the list is not Halina Silber but Brunnengraber Halinn. Jews often change their names like Helen to Helena etc.. It could be that Halina Silber's name was Brunnengraber Halinn before, but wouldn't bet on that.

You can also find on the same page the Men list which looks completely different from the one offered on Ebay.

With that on yadvashem.org I can live. Spelling looks as one can expect from a professional accountant.

[antfish]

the whole the "THE LIST" thing is just a spielberg movie hype.

[lemoncake]

the whole the "THE LIST" thing is just a spielberg movie hype.

Are you saying the list is just made up? Schindler is made up? and over 1000 people saved is nothing but a hype?

Do you believe saving over 1000 people and risking his own neck does not deserve recognition?

[wealth]

Oh, boy, I am out of my league here. An earlier poster, Wealth, seems to know more about this than I do. Perhaps he, or some others with knowledge about the lists can answer.

No, I'm not an expert and found it by accident like you did. It turned my stomach upside down, just a gut feeling. I rushed through it not even paying much attention to details.

BTW, I'm not searching, I'm finding.

[antfish]

the whole the "THE LIST" thing is just a spielberg movie hype.

Are you saying the list is just made up? Schindler is made up? and over 1000 people saved is nothing but a hype?

Do you believe saving over 1000 people and risking his own neck does not deserve recognition?

No, i am not saying that.

But the hype and the focus on that "LIST" just comes from the Spielberg movie.

There are plenty other means to keep the memory alive than just selling lists on ebay for millions of dollar.

[lemoncake]

the whole the "THE LIST" thing is just a spielberg movie hype.

Are you saying the list is just made up? Schindler is made up? and over 1000 people saved is nothing but a hype?

Do you believe saving over 1000 people and risking his own neck does not deserve recognition?

No, i am not saying that.

But the hype and the focus on that "LIST" just comes from the Spielberg movie.

There are plenty other means to keep the memory alive than just selling lists on ebay for millions of dollar.

Yes there are and hence why its on display in museums. This is just a private collector selling private item to private buyers

[wealth]

the whole the "THE LIST" thing is just a spielberg movie hype.

Are you saying the list is just made up? Schindler is made up? and over 1000 people saved is nothing but a hype?

Do you believe saving over 1000 people and risking his own neck does not deserve recognition?

No, i am not saying that.

But the hype and the focus on that "LIST" just comes from the Spielberg movie.

There are plenty other means to keep the memory alive than just selling lists on ebay for millions of dollar.

Yes there are and hence why its on display in museums. This is just a private collector selling private item to private buyers

I think the list on offer is from the movie. It makes sense when one considers the typewriter that was used. It was an English movie not a German. So yes, in that sense it's probably a movie hype and not an original and therefore I think we will see some more revelation coming about this.

When I find something like this I first question everything since the MSM is parroting anything as a given.

This issue is too serious than to lightly take it as granted by any source.

[Chicog]

Remember the Hitler Diaries?

Added: I don't know where the history is, but:

History tells that Mr Stern actually made seven lists, but only four of them have survived with one being subject of what could be multi-million dollar auction in the coming weeks.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Chicog

[GentlemanJim]

Well, I would not part with a cent,

Look at the list that is kept in the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Museum

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/stories/pdf/shindlers_list.pdf

Note the German typeset and the paper. Not the fold marks where this has been folded in quarter and put in jackets/pockets etc. Also note right at the top the German spelling of the word 'Gross'

Now look at the copy on ebay. Look at the paper, notice there are no fold marks (I don't think people carried this around in WWII thinking, 'don't fold it it may be worth something in 70 years). Notice there are no German typesets, notice the word Gross top left again, here it is simply written in English as 'Gross'.

link to ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Schindler-s-List-from-Family-of-Itzhak-Stern-Dated-April-18-1945-/190871530669?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c70d46cad&afsrc=1

Is it genuine? I don't know

Should someone buy it? Only after someone from a world renowned fine arts center has examined it and certainly not just on the strength of an affidavit from the previous owner.

Should you buy it on ebay (should it even be auctioned there for that matter)............... well giving it the benefit of the doubt and assuming it is genuine (which I am not sure I believe)........absolute lunacy!

[NeverSure]

Oh, boy, I am out of my league here. An earlier poster, Wealth, seems to know more about this than I do. Perhaps he, or some others with knowledge about the lists can answer.

There are millions of eyeballs on that auction. Many, many expert eyeballs too.

If I was trying to sell a fake, the last place I would put it would be on the world's largest auction site for scrutiny.

I have no idea, no knowledge and no opinion about the item but many others do, and would immediately report it to ebay. I'm thinking of some people with PHDs in the proper field who would quickly get ebay's attention and get the auction pulled down.

I don't think we need to decide on TV, LOL.

[jbrain]

I just wanted to throw away a few boxes of papers on which I scribbled a lot on the backside. May be I should just put them in the safe for my successors.

[wealth]

Well, I would not part with a cent,

Look at the list that is kept in the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Museum

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/stories/pdf/shindlers_list.pdf

Note the German typeset and the paper. Not the fold marks where this has been folded in quarter and put in jackets/pockets etc. Also note right at the top the German spelling of the word 'Gross'

Now look at the copy on ebay. Look at the paper, notice there are no fold marks (I don't think people carried this around in WWII thinking, 'don't fold it it may be worth something in 70 years). Notice there are no German typesets, notice the word Gross top left again, here it is simply written in English as 'Gross'.

link to ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Schindler-s-List-from-Family-of-Itzhak-Stern-Dated-April-18-1945-/190871530669?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c70d46cad&afsrc=1

Is it genuine? I don't know

Should someone buy it? Only after someone from a world renowned fine arts center has examined it and certainly not just on the strength of an affidavit from the previous owner.

Should you buy it on ebay (should it even be auctioned there for that matter)............... well giving it the benefit of the doubt and assuming it is genuine (which I am not sure I believe)........absolute lunacy!

There are far more differences

over 1000 ...

1. different typewriters - you can see when you compare the words. Start with the first two names and see how they are different. Some letter go up others down on one version

2. note the full stops after each name and Beruf (occupation) at the eBay version

3. top of pages are completely different

4. dozens of vowels, consonants and diphthongs issues are not addressed in the eBay version.

the only identical things on the lists are the names and order, although the spellings in the eBay version is a mess.

Both, the eBay version and the one from yadvashem.org are again different from the version in the Australian library.

Maybe the trick lies with the word "authentic" in context to the family of Stern and refers only to the names in the lists.

Seems to be no paper bleaching in the eBay version, so it can't be that old.

Wouldn't surprise me at all.

On eBay it refers more to the movie as you can see below ...

Schindler's List

Don't miss your chance to own a piece of history that has inspired many on the difference one person can make in the face of great danger.

This exceedingly rare original Schindler’s List is the only one ever on the market. It emanates from the family of Itzhak Stern, Schindler’s accountant and right hand man (played by Ben Kingsley in the Academy Award-winning film). There are 3 others known which are in institutional hands. It is 14 pages in length and lists 801 male names, dated April 18, 1945. It is guaranteed authentic.

... look at the wordings, 'it emanates from the family of Itzak Stern', and no mention that this list was typed by Itzak Stern. Then it refers to the movie in the next sentence. The names are 100% authentic apart from the spelling mistakes. You See what they are up too?

Edited July 21, 2013 by wealth

[GentlemanJim]

Well, I would not part with a cent,

Look at the list that is kept in the Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial Museum

http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/stories/pdf/shindlers_list.pdf

Note the German typeset and the paper. Not the fold marks where this has been folded in quarter and put in jackets/pockets etc. Also note right at the top the German spelling of the word 'Gross'

Now look at the copy on ebay. Look at the paper, notice there are no fold marks (I don't think people carried this around in WWII thinking, 'don't fold it it may be worth something in 70 years). Notice there are no German typesets, notice the word Gross top left again, here it is simply written in English as 'Gross'.

link to ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Original-Schindler-s-List-from-Family-of-Itzhak-Stern-Dated-April-18-1945-/190871530669?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c70d46cad&afsrc=1

Is it genuine? I don't know

Should someone buy it? Only after someone from a world renowned fine arts center has examined it and certainly not just on the strength of an affidavit from the previous owner.

Should you buy it on ebay (should it even be auctioned there for that matter)............... well giving it the benefit of the doubt and assuming it is genuine (which I am not sure I believe)........absolute lunacy!

There are far more differences

over 1000 ...

1. different typewriters - you can see when you compare the words. Start with the first two names and see how they are different. Some letter go up others down on one version

2. note the full stops after each name and Beruf (occupation) at the eBay version

3. top of pages are completely different

4. dozens of vowels, consonants and diphthongs issues are not addressed in the eBay version.

the only identical things on the lists are the names and order, although the spellings in the eBay version is a mess.

Both, the eBay version and the one from yadvashem.org are again different from the version in the Australian library.

Maybe the trick lies with the word "authentic" in context to the family of Stern and refers only to the names in the lists.

Seems to be no paper bleaching in the eBay version, so it can't be that old.

Wouldn't surprise me at all.

On eBay it refers more to the movie as you can see below ...

Schindler's List

Don't miss your chance to own a piece of history that has inspired many on the difference one person can make in the face of great danger.

This exceedingly rare original Schindler’s List is the only one ever on the market. It emanates from the family of Itzhak Stern, Schindler’s accountant and right hand man (played by Ben Kingsley in the Academy Award-winning film). There are 3 others known which are in institutional hands. It is 14 pages in length and lists 801 male names, dated April 18, 1945. It is guaranteed authentic.

... look at the wordings, 'it emanates from the family of Itzak Stern', and no mention that this list was typed by Itzak Stern. Then it refers to the movie in the next sentence. The names are 100% authentic apart from the spelling mistakes. You See what they are up too?

All good points, I just don't have time to scrutinize it any more at the moment, so thanks for your continued input.

They are being clever. They only say it is an original Schindler's list. I could type all the names below in order as is on the paper and it would be an original Schindler's list. It emanates from family stern. I think it is going to turn out like the Hitler Diaries.

Edited July 21, 2013 by GentlemanJim

[F430murci]

As Neversure said. eBay is pretty good about protecting public from known forgeries in high profile expensive items. Something like this with very few examples would be easily nailed if forgery or fake. I am sure they will take a good look at it if reputable experts go to eBay and say scam or fake.

[OldChinaHam]

Also from the Ebay page:

People who bought this item also bought

braveheart.jpg

Ironic

Now here we have a perfect example of irony.

I really do not expect anyone to top this during the remaining days of 2013.

(That drunkard Gibson is a menace to his fellow man)

[Scott]

Oh, boy, I am out of my league here. An earlier poster, Wealth, seems to know more about this than I do. Perhaps he, or some others with knowledge about the lists can answer.

There are millions of eyeballs on that auction. Many, many expert eyeballs too.

If I was trying to sell a fake, the last place I would put it would be on the world's largest auction site for scrutiny.

I have no idea, no knowledge and no opinion about the item but many others do, and would immediately report it to ebay. I'm thinking of some people with PHDs in the proper field who would quickly get ebay's attention and get the auction pulled down.

I don't think we need to decide on TV, LOL.

ThaiVisa members are the definitive authority on everything. Until it's decided here, it hasn't been decided!

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.

[Credo]

What would happen if someone bought it and it turned out to be a fake?

[GentlemanJim]

What would happen if someone bought it and it turned out to be a fake?

Credo

Precedent is set with the Hitler Diaries. The motivation was money and journalists and academics were so excited they were literally blinded to their own abilities of reasoning and logic.

"One of the postwar period's most flamboyant historical scandals was the forgery of the so-called "Hitler Diaries." The acceptance of these fakes as genuine by prominent journalists and historians, the publicity surrounding their publication in news magazines in West Germany and the United States, and the unraveling of the fraud perpetrated by their author, a sleazy dealer in pseudo-Nazi relics, rocked West Germany in the mid-1980s and resounded in journalistic and historical establishments elsewhere."

All the majority of the public know about Schindler is what Steven Spielberg told them via movie/theatre. Every seems to forget that the Schindler in the movies was inspired by a novel by Thomas Keneally. The real Schindler was quite a different character who died of alcoholism begging for money from Jews. There were many historical inaccuracies in the movie, not least of which were some of the circumstances surrounding Schindler himself. Interestingly non of these copies of Schindler's list surfaced in any museum until after the movie. The first to surface was the copy given to Thomas Keneally (to inspire him to write a novel)by a man who brokered the movie rights. There is a book review from the New York Times in 2004 which shed some light on the matter.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Schindler/OOF1104.html

To begin with, there was no Schindler's List.

"Schindler had almost nothing to do with the list," said David M. Crowe, a Holocaust historian and professor at Elon University in North Carolina, whose book, "Oskar Schindler: The Untold Account of His Life, Wartime Activities and the True Story Behind the List," was published this fall by Westview Press.

In the film, Schindler, played by Liam Neeson, is shown in 1944 giving the Jewish manager of his enamelware and arms factory in Krakow, Poland, the names of Jewish workers to be taken to the relative safety of what is now the Czech Republic. But at the time, Mr. Crowe said in a telephone interview, Schindler was in jail for bribing Amon Göth, the brutal SS commandant played by Ralph Fiennes in the film. And the manager, Itzhak Stern (Ben Kingsley), was not even working for Schindler then.

Mr. Crowe said that there were nine lists. The first four were drawn up primarily by Marcel Goldberg, a corrupt Jewish security police officer and assistant to an SS officer in charge of transporting Jews

So 'Caveat Emptor" !!!

Edited July 22, 2013 by GentlemanJim

[Credo]

After the movie was released and some of the hype settled down, there was a fair amount of information put out about Schindler and the less savory parts of his character.

I am surprised this document is put up for sale without some high profile people attesting to it being authentic.

It will be interesting to see who buys it and what they do with it.

[wealth]

... still no bid at eBay ... finishes in 14 hours ...

[GentlemanJim]

... still no bid at eBay ... finishes in 14 hours ...

And still no bid with 11 hrs 30 mins to go............eeeeeeek! Do I have enough popcorn to see this one through? (I think I will have to substitute with corn flakes over breakfast.