Thaksin's ties with red shirts grow more delicate

[GentlemanJim]

I hope Jatuporn chooses his driver very carefully and does not send them on errands with 5 million baht worth of cheques!

Edited July 23, 2013 by GentlemanJim

[jackspratt]

Sorry, double post.

That's OK - they were both nonsense.

Do you honestly believe the Thaksin-aligned parties are the only ones who hand out bribes?

If so, you need to get out more.

[bigbamboo]

Democracy is a sick system, peoples votes can be bough and a vote of a university professor is as valuable as that of an illiterate alcoholic peasant. Makes you wonder.

Reminds me of the 'My time is very valuable' brigade.

[khunken]

Sorry, double post.

That's OK - they were both nonsense.

Do you honestly believe the Thaksin-aligned parties are the only ones who hand out bribes?

If so, you need to get out more.

His posts wern't nonsense. Two of the other major parties - Banharn's & Newin's - certainly are no slouches were vote buying is concerned but the Democrats are not. Some individuals in the Dem party have done & maybe will do but it's not endemic within the party.

The difference is that the Democrats don't have a leader who is a corrupt paymaster.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Sorry, double post.

That's OK - they were both nonsense.

Do you honestly believe the Thaksin-aligned parties are the only ones who hand out bribes?

If so, you need to get out more.

His posts wern't nonsense. Two of the other major parties - Banharn's & Newin's - certainly are no slouches were vote buying is concerned but the Democrats are not. Some individuals in the Dem party have done & maybe will do but it's not endemic within the party.

The difference is that the Democrats don't have a leader who is a corrupt paymaster.

Spot on!!!

Abhisit would never compromise his morals or ethics whatsoever as his honesty and integrity are second to none out of all of the politicians in Thailand!!.

[hellodolly]

He has said that unless it moves quickly and correctly on the contentious issue of amnesty, the Yingluck government will not last long enough to spend the massive sum of money potentially available in the water management and infrastructure development schemes.

To me that sounds like a very thinly veiled threat against the government, give us what we, your grassroots support want or we will do to you what we did to the Democrats, that is use mob power to force you out of government.

As some have said, the Democrats are not in a position to govern, purely through a lack of popular support I think, so who or what will replace the government, especially if the hardcore reds turn against Taksin? It may well be a less than desirable replacement, one that may see red democracy rule the country, and crush all do not like the red version of democracy.

It is a sad thing that you are right about the Democrats not having the popular support.

Say what one will say about them whether you like them or not but when all is done and said they would be the best choice out there for the over all welfare of Thailand.

I spotted this in the article and couldn't believe it.

"Or Jatuporn could be issuing threats to both camps. For a red-shirt leader scorned, anything is possible"

Scorned is being nice to him the man is a loose cannon on a deck in a typhoon. In the 7 years I have been here I have not seen him hold one job other than village idiot that he would qualify for if he had to take a competency test.

[SICHONSTEVE]

He has said that unless it moves quickly and correctly on the contentious issue of amnesty, the Yingluck government will not last long enough to spend the massive sum of money potentially available in the water management and infrastructure development schemes.

To me that sounds like a very thinly veiled threat against the government, give us what we, your grassroots support want or we will do to you what we did to the Democrats, that is use mob power to force you out of government.

As some have said, the Democrats are not in a position to govern, purely through a lack of popular support I think, so who or what will replace the government, especially if the hardcore reds turn against Taksin? It may well be a less than desirable replacement, one that may see red democracy rule the country, and crush all do not like the red version of democracy.

It is a sad thing that you are right about the Democrats not having the popular support.

Say what one will say about them whether you like them or not but when all is done and said they would be the best choice out there for the over all welfare of Thailand.

I spotted this in the article and couldn't believe it.

"Or Jatuporn could be issuing threats to both camps. For a red-shirt leader scorned, anything is possible"

Scorned is being nice to him the man is a loose cannon on a deck in a typhoon. In the 7 years I have been here I have not seen him hold one job other than village idiot that he would qualify for if he had to take a competency test.

He might talk drivel and nonsense but he is a good orator all the same.

[Thai at Heart]

"Jatuporn may not represent the entire red-shirt movement, but as far as Thaksin is concerned, few things can be more dangerous than a loyal warrior betrayed."

Jatuporn isn't any sort of warrior. He is a fascist thug who leads a gang of bully boy stormtroopers. He is surplus to requirements and an embarrassment to all. He would do well to learn from the fate of Ernst Rohm, another arrogant, self absorbed fascist who was disposed of once his usefulness was outweighed by his embarrassment factor.

I think it's pretty obvious that Thaksin realises that if he puts jatuporn into a position in cabinet, his chances of getting amnesty and returning get even slimmer.

But if he keeps him out, slimmer still???

He doesn't need permission from jatuporn for his amnesty. That's way above jatuporns pay scale.

[scorecard]

Sorry, double post.

That's OK - they were both nonsense.

Do you honestly believe the Thaksin-aligned parties are the only ones who hand out bribes?

If so, you need to get out more.

IMHO nobody would suggest that it's only the TRT and their reincarnations that buy votes.

But because they basically all do it, at some level, doesn't mean it's OK!

[jackspratt]

Sorry, double post.

That's OK - they were both nonsense.

Do you honestly believe the Thaksin-aligned parties are the only ones who hand out bribes?

If so, you need to get out more.

His posts wern't nonsense. Two of the other major parties - Banharn's & Newin's - certainly are no slouches were vote buying is concerned but the Democrats are not. Some individuals in the Dem party have done & maybe will do but it's not endemic within the party.

The difference is that the Democrats don't have a leader who is a corrupt paymaster.

Spot on!!!

Abhisit would never compromise his morals or ethics whatsoever as his honesty and integrity are second to none out of all of the politicians in Thailand!!.

Oh dear!

You have obviously never been to my neck of the woods.

It must be bliss living in Bangkok, or places further south, and guessing/wishing what happens in the heartland of Thailand.

I have just re-confirmed with an impeccable source that they all (including the Dems) pay for votes.

[jackspratt]

Sorry, double post.

That's OK - they were both nonsense.

Do you honestly believe the Thaksin-aligned parties are the only ones who hand out bribes?

If so, you need to get out more.

IMHO nobody would suggest that it's only the TRT and their reincarnations that buy votes.

Did you read posts 34 & 35?

Edited July 23, 2013 by jackspratt

[SICHONSTEVE]

"Jatuporn may not represent the entire red-shirt movement, but as far as Thaksin is concerned, few things can be more dangerous than a loyal warrior betrayed."

Jatuporn isn't any sort of warrior. He is a fascist thug who leads a gang of bully boy stormtroopers. He is surplus to requirements and an embarrassment to all. He would do well to learn from the fate of Ernst Rohm, another arrogant, self absorbed fascist who was disposed of once his usefulness was outweighed by his embarrassment factor.

I think it's pretty obvious that Thaksin realises that if he puts jatuporn into a position in cabinet, his chances of getting amnesty and returning get even slimmer.

But if he keeps him out, slimmer still???

He doesn't need permission from jatuporn for his amnesty. That's way above jatuporns pay scale.

Don't underestimate the damage he can do to Thaksin now that he has run into choppy waters on so many fronts and his prospects of gaining his treasured amnesty are receding every day due to a series of gargantuan cockups and Yingluck's seemingly gaining confidence (even if she and her government have been an absolute disaster)!!!

[longway]

Democracy is a sick system, peoples votes can be bough and a vote of a university professor is as valuable as that of an illiterate alcoholic peasant. Makes you wonder.

You are right in some respects, and this is why I call myself a "fascist", even though my views are more in favour of democracy than many who demonise fascism. Winston Churchill, a great scholar of politics and a champion of democracy, agreed with you too:

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

If there are proportionally many "illiterate alcoholic peasants" in a nation or even a large proportion who see political allegiance with some sort of "local football team" mentality, then democracy is doomed. This can be applied to "evolved" democratic states like the USA or to younger ones like Thailand. What's worse, the state will continually restrict democratic rights purportedly in the interests of democracy, thus devolving democracy into a totalitarian type of fascism. Again, this can be applied to the US and Thailand, but the most poignant example I can think of was Nazi Germany.

And the most compelling agrument for democracy is usually about 3-5 years under any particular governement.

Edited July 23, 2013 by longway

[scorecard]

Democracy is a sick system, peoples votes can be bough and a vote of a university professor is as valuable as that of an illiterate alcoholic peasant. Makes you wonder.

Givn the offerings of so many University professors I have no problem with that.

Are we confusing the limitations of democracy in this situation with a broken down judicial system? The last decade in Thai politics occurred due to the total lack of judicial ethics in Thaksins asset concealment case. The judges even admitted after the case that he was guilty but that seeing as he won an election who were they to find him guilty. Emboldened by his apparent above the law status we saw the events unfold like the murder of the shipping moo about to give evidence against Thaksin in the Shin corp tax evasion case, and the dozen other charges awaiting his return.

Any true reconciliation will come about not by whitewashing Thaksin for all crimes past,present and future, but by rewinding the clock to this asset concealment case. As a convicted criminal he would not have been eligible to have been PM in the first place. I have no idea where Thailand would be now if there had been no Thaksin, but I'm quite certain we would not be teetering on the brink of a civil war.

Now we have a bizarre situation whereby instead of genuine rulings in court against the Shinawatra clan by considering evidence, the crimes are instead dropped from the lawbooks to maintain this not guilty facade. Recent examples being the Yingluck perjury case, chief of police receiving promotions from a convicted criminal fugitive, passports being hand delivered overseas to the same criminal. Its all a nonsense and can only be corrected by going back to the beginning of the Thaksin reign and apply proper judgments.

Failure to correct these past wrongs will lead to the countries continued slide into a state of anarchy, double standards, economic hardships and an end result that is both unclear, and unpleasant to consider.

Plus, IMHO if somehow the PT gets something through parliament which does whitewash the paymaster and allows him to re-enter Thailand with all other charges cancelled then all hell will break loose.

Will it be the same day he returns, or a few months later? Well who knows at this stage.

It seems to me that the current mostly silent folks will eventually take to the streets.

Another possibility, all charges cancelled, then how can the judiciary even function? They already have a lot of question marks over their heads. Again I wonder whether this could be the catalyst which eventually makes the mostly silent majority take to the streets.

Further, as time goes on there will be a slowly rising better educated middle class who I suspect will stand up and be counted and perhaps on many fronts - corruption being just one - and they may well look for an example case to make the point, if you get my drift.

On top of all of that there is the current: jatuporn factor and the seemingly abandonment of the red shirts, and even some farmers rising up.

Any whitewash will contribute to all of them, but especially the vast currently silent majority, making a stand.

Day 1 on Thai soil would just be the beginning of a very nasty road.

[longway]

Democracy is a sick system, peoples votes can be bough and a vote of a university professor is as valuable as that of an illiterate alcoholic peasant. Makes you wonder.

Givn the offerings of so many University professors I have no problem with that.

Are we confusing the limitations of democracy in this situation with a broken down judicial system? The last decade in Thai politics occurred due to the total lack of judicial ethics in Thaksins asset concealment case. The judges even admitted after the case that he was guilty but that seeing as he won an election who were they to find him guilty. Emboldened by his apparent above the law status we saw the events unfold like the murder of the shipping moo about to give evidence against Thaksin in the Shin corp tax evasion case, and the dozen other charges awaiting his return.

Any true reconciliation will come about not by whitewashing Thaksin for all crimes past,present and future, but by rewinding the clock to this asset concealment case. As a convicted criminal he would not have been eligible to have been PM in the first place. I have no idea where Thailand would be now if there had been no Thaksin, but I'm quite certain we would not be teetering on the brink of a civil war.

Now we have a bizarre situation whereby instead of genuine rulings in court against the Shinawatra clan by considering evidence, the crimes are instead dropped from the lawbooks to maintain this not guilty facade. Recent examples being the Yingluck perjury case, chief of police receiving promotions from a convicted criminal fugitive, passports being hand delivered overseas to the same criminal. Its all a nonsense and can only be corrected by going back to the beginning of the Thaksin reign and apply proper judgments.

Failure to correct these past wrongs will lead to the countries continued slide into a state of anarchy, double standards, economic hardships and an end result that is both unclear, and unpleasant to consider.

And, as with all demagogues, he and his supporters now decry as foul the same double-standard practices that allowed him to gain and maintain power. That's why the Red Shirt pro-democracy movement made a huge blunder by allowing him to champion their cause in the first place and why "Thaksin's ties with Red Shirts grow more delicate".

Are you sure that the red shirts are a pro democracy movement? A survey was conducted of red shirts on what their movement was about back in late 2010, only 30% of them identified it to be 'democracy'. If I remember correctly 20% thought it was about bringing thaksin back and 30% thought it was about bringing down the then democrat government. and the rest identified a variety of other options.

In a similar survey of the general thai population only 15% thought the redshirts were about 'democracy'. Interestingly enough 10% of the general population thought the yellow shirts were about democracy.

The UDD just trumpets 'democracy' to sound good, its by and large lip service only, and those they fool with it are in a minority.

Edited July 23, 2013 by longway

[jackspratt]

.

Are you sure that the red shirts are a pro democracy movement? A survey was conducted of red shirts on what their movement was about back in late 2010, only 30% of them identified it to be 'democracy'. If I remember correctly 20% thought it was about bringing thaksin back and 30% thought it was about bringing down the then democrat government. and the rest identified a variety of other options.

In a similar survey of the general thai population only 15% thought the redshirts were about 'democracy'. Interestingly enough 10% of the general population thought the yellow shirts were about democracy.

The UDD just trumpets 'democracy' to sound good, its by and large lip service only, and those they fool with it are in a minority.

Link?

[Bluespunk]

not have been eligible to have been PM in the first place. I have no idea where Thailand would be now if there had been no Thaksin, but I'm quite certain we would not be teetering on the brink of a civil war.

Now we have a bizarre situation whereby instead of genuine rulings in court against the Shinawatra clan by considering evidence, the crimes are instead dropped from the lawbooks to maintain this not guilty facade. Recent examples being the Yingluck perjury case, chief of police receiving promotions from a convicted criminal fugitive, passports being hand delivered overseas to the same criminal. Its all a nonsense and can only be corrected by going back to the beginning of the Thaksin reign and apply proper judgments.

Failure to correct these past wrongs will lead to the countries continued slide into a state of anarchy, double standards, economic hardships and an end result that is both unclear, and unpleasant to consider.

And, as with all demagogues, he and his supporters now decry as foul the same double-standard practices that allowed him to gain and maintain power. That's why the Red Shirt pro-democracy movement made a huge blunder by allowing him to champion their cause in the first place and why "Thaksin's ties with Red Shirts grow more delicate".

Are you sure that the red shirts are a pro democracy movement? A survey was conducted of red shirts on what their movement was about back in late 2010, only 30% of them identified it to be 'democracy'. If I remember correctly 20% thought it was about bringing thaksin back and 30% thought it was about bringing down the then democrat government. and the rest identified a variety of other options.

In a similar survey of the general thai population only 15% thought the redshirts were about 'democracy'. Interestingly enough 10% of the general population thought the yellow shirts were about democracy.

The UDD just trumpets 'democracy' to sound good, its by and large lip service only, and those they fool with it are in a minority.

red or yellow, they're all fascists.

[waza]

.

Are you sure that the red shirts are a pro democracy movement? A survey was conducted of red shirts on what their movement was about back in late 2010, only 30% of them identified it to be 'democracy'. If I remember correctly 20% thought it was about bringing thaksin back and 30% thought it was about bringing down the then democrat government. and the rest identified a variety of other options.

In a similar survey of the general thai population only 15% thought the redshirts were about 'democracy'. Interestingly enough 10% of the general population thought the yellow shirts were about democracy.

The UDD just trumpets 'democracy' to sound good, its by and large lip service only, and those they fool with it are in a minority.

Link?

The UDD is so democratic that the leadership team is self appointed not elected by the majority....

"Regarding the confusion about the leadership of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), the official president of the UDD is still Assoc. Prof. Tida Tavonseth. The misunderstanding stemmed from the meetings of UDD co-leaders last weekend. Other rumours which stated that Assoc. Prof. Tida was going to step down as the leader of the UDD today is completely untrue............ Mrs. Tida proposed to the meeting that Mr. Jatuporn was a suitable candidate to replace her as President of the Red Shirt movement, and the other co-leaders agreed. However, Mr Jatuporn refused the offer, citing that he was not ready to take on the position due to his illness (back pain) and other personal reasons that needed to be taken care of first." http://thairedshirts.org/2013/07/03/udd-press-conference-030713-no-changes-at-the-top-part-i/

Red democracy in action.

Edited July 23, 2013 by waza

[Pi Sek]

Are we confusing the limitations of democracy in this situation with a broken down judicial system? The last decade in Thai politics occurred due to the total lack of judicial ethics in Thaksins asset concealment case. The judges even admitted after the case that he was guilty but that seeing as he won an election who were they to find him guilty. Emboldened by his apparent above the law status we saw the events unfold like the murder of the shipping moo about to give evidence against Thaksin in the Shin corp tax evasion case, and the dozen other charges awaiting his return.

Any true reconciliation will come about not by whitewashing Thaksin for all crimes past,present and future, but by rewinding the clock to this asset concealment case. As a convicted criminal he would not have been eligible to have been PM in the first place. I have no idea where Thailand would be now if there had been no Thaksin, but I'm quite certain we would not be teetering on the brink of a civil war.

Now we have a bizarre situation whereby instead of genuine rulings in court against the Shinawatra clan by considering evidence, the crimes are instead dropped from the lawbooks to maintain this not guilty facade. Recent examples being the Yingluck perjury case, chief of police receiving promotions from a convicted criminal fugitive, passports being hand delivered overseas to the same criminal. Its all a nonsense and can only be corrected by going back to the beginning of the Thaksin reign and apply proper judgments.

Failure to correct these past wrongs will lead to the countries continued slide into a state of anarchy, double standards, economic hardships and an end result that is both unclear, and unpleasant to consider.

And, as with all demagogues, he and his supporters now decry as foul the same double-standard practices that allowed him to gain and maintain power. That's why the Red Shirt pro-democracy movement made a huge blunder by allowing him to champion their cause in the first place and why "Thaksin's ties with Red Shirts grow more delicate".

Are you sure that the red shirts are a pro democracy movement? A survey was conducted of red shirts on what their movement was about back in late 2010, only 30% of them identified it to be 'democracy'. If I remember correctly 20% thought it was about bringing thaksin back and 30% thought it was about bringing down the then democrat government. and the rest identified a variety of other options.

In a similar survey of the general thai population only 15% thought the redshirts were about 'democracy'. Interestingly enough 10% of the general population thought the yellow shirts were about democracy.

The UDD just trumpets 'democracy' to sound good, its by and large lip service only, and those they fool with it are in a minority.

Democracy is a hard word to elucidate to those who have never known it, and even to many of those who have.

[bigbamboo]

Are we confusing the limitations of democracy in this situation with a broken down judicial system? The last decade in Thai politics occurred due to the total lack of judicial ethics in Thaksins asset concealment case. The judges even admitted after the case that he was guilty but that seeing as he won an election who were they to find him guilty. Emboldened by his apparent above the law status we saw the events unfold like the murder of the shipping moo about to give evidence against Thaksin in the Shin corp tax evasion case, and the dozen other charges awaiting his return.

Any true reconciliation will come about not by whitewashing Thaksin for all crimes past,present and future, but by rewinding the clock to this asset concealment case. As a convicted criminal he would not have been eligible to have been PM in the first place. I have no idea where Thailand would be now if there had been no Thaksin, but I'm quite certain we would not be teetering on the brink of a civil war.

Now we have a bizarre situation whereby instead of genuine rulings in court against the Shinawatra clan by considering evidence, the crimes are instead dropped from the lawbooks to maintain this not guilty facade. Recent examples being the Yingluck perjury case, chief of police receiving promotions from a convicted criminal fugitive, passports being hand delivered overseas to the same criminal. Its all a nonsense and can only be corrected by going back to the beginning of the Thaksin reign and apply proper judgments.

Failure to correct these past wrongs will lead to the countries continued slide into a state of anarchy, double standards, economic hardships and an end result that is both unclear, and unpleasant to consider.

And, as with all demagogues, he and his supporters now decry as foul the same double-standard practices that allowed him to gain and maintain power. That's why the Red Shirt pro-democracy movement made a huge blunder by allowing him to champion their cause in the first place and why "Thaksin's ties with Red Shirts grow more delicate".

Are you sure that the red shirts are a pro democracy movement? A survey was conducted of red shirts on what their movement was about back in late 2010, only 30% of them identified it to be 'democracy'. If I remember correctly 20% thought it was about bringing thaksin back and 30% thought it was about bringing down the then democrat government. and the rest identified a variety of other options.

In a similar survey of the general thai population only 15% thought the redshirts were about 'democracy'. Interestingly enough 10% of the general population thought the yellow shirts were about democracy.

The UDD just trumpets 'democracy' to sound good, its by and large lip service only, and those they fool with it are in a minority.

Democracy is a hard word to elucidate to those who have never known it, and even to many of those who have.

Agree. Sometimes it seems all Greek to me.

Edited July 23, 2013 by bigbamboo

[hellodolly]

I hope Jatuporn chooses his driver very carefully and does not send them on errands with 5 million baht worth of cheques!

Not me. I hope he just grabs any old drunk off the street and gives him his check book to run errands. Just check to see if they have a black shirt on. If they do that is definatly the right guy to get.

He could also pick up all the gifts Jatuporn gets.

[hellodolly]

Democracy is a sick system, peoples votes can be bough and a vote of a university professor is as valuable as that of an illiterate alcoholic peasant. Makes you wonder.

Givn the offerings of so many University professors I have no problem with that.

Are we confusing the limitations of democracy in this situation with a broken down judicial system? The last decade in Thai politics occurred due to the total lack of judicial ethics in Thaksins asset concealment case. The judges even admitted after the case that he was guilty but that seeing as he won an election who were they to find him guilty. Emboldened by his apparent above the law status we saw the events unfold like the murder of the shipping moo about to give evidence against Thaksin in the Shin corp tax evasion case, and the dozen other charges awaiting his return.

Any true reconciliation will come about not by whitewashing Thaksin for all crimes past,present and future, but by rewinding the clock to this asset concealment case. As a convicted criminal he would not have been eligible to have been PM in the first place. I have no idea where Thailand would be now if there had been no Thaksin, but I'm quite certain we would not be teetering on the brink of a civil war.

Now we have a bizarre situation whereby instead of genuine rulings in court against the Shinawatra clan by considering evidence, the crimes are instead dropped from the lawbooks to maintain this not guilty facade. Recent examples being the Yingluck perjury case, chief of police receiving promotions from a convicted criminal fugitive, passports being hand delivered overseas to the same criminal. Its all a nonsense and can only be corrected by going back to the beginning of the Thaksin reign and apply proper judgments.

Failure to correct these past wrongs will lead to the countries continued slide into a state of anarchy, double standards, economic hardships and an end result that is both unclear, and unpleasant to consider.

Plus, IMHO if somehow the PT gets something through parliament which does whitewash the paymaster and allows him to re-enter Thailand with all other charges cancelled then all hell will break loose.

Will it be the same day he returns, or a few months later? Well who knows at this stage.

It seems to me that the current mostly silent folks will eventually take to the streets.

Another possibility, all charges cancelled, then how can the judiciary even function? They already have a lot of question marks over their heads. Again I wonder whether this could be the catalyst which eventually makes the mostly silent majority take to the streets.

Further, as time goes on there will be a slowly rising better educated middle class who I suspect will stand up and be counted and perhaps on many fronts - corruption being just one - and they may well look for an example case to make the point, if you get my drift.

On top of all of that there is the current: jatuporn factor and the seemingly abandonment of the red shirts, and even some farmers rising up.

Any whitewash will contribute to all of them, but especially the vast currently silent majority, making a stand.

Day 1 on Thai soil would just be the beginning of a very nasty road.

Well there is no doubt what so ever that a white wash of Thaksin would bring on a whole lot of misery for the PTP. Even if one of his enemies gets to him on his first day here.

But when you said

"Another possibility, all charges cancelled, then how can the judiciary even function? They already have a lot of question marks over their heads."

I have to disagree with you on that. It would remove a lot of the cases they are dealing with and having the PTP trying with a fair amount of success to decide for them.

In essence a clean start for them. Just my opinion.

[Robby nz]

It would be interesting to know just how much support the red shirts really do have now.

They certainly have a lot of bluster and big talk, they have red villages where every one is supposed to be a supporter and they have set up red schools to spread their propaganda among the young but there must be those among them who are wondering just what it is they are supporting.

We hear that there are factions within the red grouping who have declined to support some of the actions, such as the attacks on the white mask rallies.

We were told they don't want to hold democratic elections for a leader, might end up with the wrong person.

We know for a fact that they have to bus people around to their rallies to make up numbers and when they didn't get the number they promised at a big rally in BKK the reason those who did not turn up gave was that they were not paid.

So that means they are still relying pretty much on a rent a mob with full time paid leaders.

They also have those in parliament who are there as a reward for services rendered and they must be wondering which way (the most lucrative) they should turn, like is it really worth going along with Mrs T and Mr J when there is more in it sticking where they are.

[MAJIC]

Some very interesting posts on this thread regarding democracy itself as well as Thai style.

First, I have a question: is there a truly democratic country in the world today? One where:

* money doesn't decide on who gets elected

* political parties are not permitted to promise or directly hand out riches to those who will vote for them

* elections are not won by 33% of the vote

* intimidation of voters is not a factor

* manipulation of vote counting is not a factor

* constituency boundaries are not manipulated

* the electorate is consulted in the case of war, for example (or built in checks are present)

* and there is a means (not too easy and not too difficult) to overthrow a government that is so corrupt or oppressive (or both).

The only country that comes close is Switzerland. Unfortunately their example can't fully be used by larger countries but some parts could.

In Thailand's case any means to prevent Thaksin acquiring direct power again are justified. I'm not against collective leadership but dictatorship is disastrous.

Imo Switzerland is not a good example of Democracy,all they are is the Bankers for the Worlds Dictatorships,Fascists and any other Nations which want to hide ill gotten gains,for retrieval,after the heirarchy has been overthrown,leaving the Country Bankrupt,Switzerland is not exactly the worlds Democratic Ideal Role Model! but they do a good job of hiding and Laundering money,with no conscience!

[SICHONSTEVE]

It would be interesting to know just how much support the red shirts really do have now.

They certainly have a lot of bluster and big talk, they have red villages where every one is supposed to be a supporter and they have set up red schools to spread their propaganda among the young but there must be those among them who are wondering just what it is they are supporting.

We hear that there are factions within the red grouping who have declined to support some of the actions, such as the attacks on the white mask rallies.

We were told they don't want to hold democratic elections for a leader, might end up with the wrong person.

We know for a fact that they have to bus people around to their rallies to make up numbers and when they didn't get the number they promised at a big rally in BKK the reason those who did not turn up gave was that they were not paid.

So that means they are still relying pretty much on a rent a mob with full time paid leaders.

They also have those in parliament who are there as a reward for services rendered and they must be wondering which way (the most lucrative) they should turn, like is it really worth going along with Mrs T and Mr J when there is more in it sticking where they are.

'Pure' democracy in it's greatest form, with the peoples welfare and interests at the forefront of their mind - they are almost selfless missionaries such is their dedication to serving the people. What a shining beacon to the world they are!!!.

[longway]

.

Are you sure that the red shirts are a pro democracy movement? A survey was conducted of red shirts on what their movement was about back in late 2010, only 30% of them identified it to be 'democracy'. If I remember correctly 20% thought it was about bringing thaksin back and 30% thought it was about bringing down the then democrat government. and the rest identified a variety of other options.

In a similar survey of the general thai population only 15% thought the redshirts were about 'democracy'. Interestingly enough 10% of the general population thought the yellow shirts were about democracy.

The UDD just trumpets 'democracy' to sound good, its by and large lip service only, and those they fool with it are in a minority.

Link?

Google: `asia foundation 2010 thai national survey` look at page 79 of the pdf for the the objectives of the red shirts, page 78 for objectives of the yellow shirts as perceived by the general thai population. You will also see on page 79 is where it states only 30% of red shirts themselves believe that the primary objective of the red shirt movement is democracy.

There was a survey done in 2009 as well; very interesting reading overall.

Edited July 24, 2013 by longway

[khunken]

Some very interesting posts on this thread regarding democracy itself as well as Thai style.

First, I have a question: is there a truly democratic country in the world today? One where:

* money doesn't decide on who gets elected

* political parties are not permitted to promise or directly hand out riches to those who will vote for them

* elections are not won by 33% of the vote

* intimidation of voters is not a factor

* manipulation of vote counting is not a factor

* constituency boundaries are not manipulated

* the electorate is consulted in the case of war, for example (or built in checks are present)

* and there is a means (not too easy and not too difficult) to overthrow a government that is so corrupt or oppressive (or both).

The only country that comes close is Switzerland. Unfortunately their example can't fully be used by larger countries but some parts could.

In Thailand's case any means to prevent Thaksin acquiring direct power again are justified. I'm not against collective leadership but dictatorship is disastrous.

Imo Switzerland is not a good example of Democracy,all they are is the Bankers for the Worlds Dictatorships,Fascists and any other Nations which want to hide ill gotten gains,for retrieval,after the heirarchy has been overthrown,leaving the Country Bankrupt,Switzerland is not exactly the worlds Democratic Ideal Role Model! but they do a good job of hiding and Laundering money,with no conscience!

You're missing the point entirely. Banking there is not about democracy & I tend to agree with you about money laundering.

Their system of democracy - elections, both local & national, petitions put forward by groups of citizens, all-in-all consultative politics - is as close to a model of democracy as one can get. The fact that neo-fascists are sometimes elected is because the people have voted for them.

Don't confuse the bad eggs who get elected with the democratic system that elected them.

[longway]

Are we confusing the limitations of democracy in this situation with a broken down judicial system? The last decade in Thai politics occurred due to the total lack of judicial ethics in Thaksins asset concealment case. The judges even admitted after the case that he was guilty but that seeing as he won an election who were they to find him guilty. Emboldened by his apparent above the law status we saw the events unfold like the murder of the shipping moo about to give evidence against Thaksin in the Shin corp tax evasion case, and the dozen other charges awaiting his return.

Any true reconciliation will come about not by whitewashing Thaksin for all crimes past,present and future, but by rewinding the clock to this asset concealment case. As a convicted criminal he would not have been eligible to have been PM in the first place. I have no idea where Thailand would be now if there had been no Thaksin, but I'm quite certain we would not be teetering on the brink of a civil war.

Now we have a bizarre situation whereby instead of genuine rulings in court against the Shinawatra clan by considering evidence, the crimes are instead dropped from the lawbooks to maintain this not guilty facade. Recent examples being the Yingluck perjury case, chief of police receiving promotions from a convicted criminal fugitive, passports being hand delivered overseas to the same criminal. Its all a nonsense and can only be corrected by going back to the beginning of the Thaksin reign and apply proper judgments.

Failure to correct these past wrongs will lead to the countries continued slide into a state of anarchy, double standards, economic hardships and an end result that is both unclear, and unpleasant to consider.

And, as with all demagogues, he and his supporters now decry as foul the same double-standard practices that allowed him to gain and maintain power. That's why the Red Shirt pro-democracy movement made a huge blunder by allowing him to champion their cause in the first place and why "Thaksin's ties with Red Shirts grow more delicate".

Are you sure that the red shirts are a pro democracy movement? A survey was conducted of red shirts on what their movement was about back in late 2010, only 30% of them identified it to be 'democracy'. If I remember correctly 20% thought it was about bringing thaksin back and 30% thought it was about bringing down the then democrat government. and the rest identified a variety of other options.

In a similar survey of the general thai population only 15% thought the redshirts were about 'democracy'. Interestingly enough 10% of the general population thought the yellow shirts were about democracy.

The UDD just trumpets 'democracy' to sound good, its by and large lip service only, and those they fool with it are in a minority.

Democracy is a hard word to elucidate to those who have never known it, and even to many of those who have.

Its the peddling of `democracy` as a religion and elections as its sacred rite that is causing problems. You pose any inadequcies of the process and you are a heretic and pariah to the one true faith.

Democracy is a tool, its a means to an end, it needs to be changed refined and managed in changing times and situations, if not it loses its relevance and vigour. Its essence has to come from the people up, these days almost every where its been subverted.

[SICHONSTEVE]

I agree entirely with the last posting.

People make the mistake that an elected government must be in the best interest of the country whereas it can be exactly the opposite to this. A prime example is with Egypt whereby the Muslim 'oriented' government is using its power to enshrine Islamic laws such as Shariah law into the constitution. Another, different example is Thailand, yes Thailand, as the present government was elected purely on account of making unrealistic promises and pledging to implement populist policies that were not of benefit to the country as a whole.

This is not democracy in action as it is a dishonest and corrupt government run by a fugitive for a fugitive. A democratically elected government should be in office to serve the people and not the desires of one man!!!