Siam from a Japanese perspective

[andrew]

Siam from a Japanese perspective

Siam from a Japanese perspective falls into three very distinct and historically unrelated categories:

1. the Samurai who came here prior to the Sakoku edict of 1635

2. the Imperial Japanese army soldiers who came here in 1941

3. the businessmen who came here in the latter part of the 20th century and created (amongst other things) the "Detroit of the East"

This post deals with the Samurai.

====================================================

The painting below depicts a series of events that took place in 1621. Who are the Japanese men in the painting? And why are they killing everyone?

Overview

a. the Sakoku Edict of 1635 -- why did Japan become a closed country?

b. why did the Samurai leave Japan?

c. were the Samurai really Samurai or just Ronin or mercenaries or soldiers of fortune?

d. why was Siam the most important "client country" for the Samurai?

e. how did the Samurai come to Siam -- what were the Red Seal ships?

f. why did the first recorded Red Seal ship to Siam (in 1604) go to Singora?

g. why was Singora so important?

[Kudel]

I think the pic has to do with the voc ,the dutch east indies company and maybe the control of opium .opium was a very big commodety in that era and the voc where nothing else the a bunch of drugrunners anyway

And those japs must have been mercenaries swords for rent i pressume to get rid of those voc boys.

[andrew]

I think the pic has to do with the voc ,the dutch east indies company and maybe the control of opium .opium was a very big commodety in that era and the voc where nothing else the a bunch of drugrunners anyway

And those japs must have been mercenaries swords for rent i pressume to get rid of those voc boys.

No, I'm afraid you have things wrong.

But yes, the painting does have to do with the VOC. The gentleman in question was a nasty little man called Jan Pieterszoon Coen.

The Portuguese made it to the Sultanate of Ternate. They discovered the source of cloves.

But it was the Dutch who discovered the Banda Islands (about 300 miles south of Ternate) and the source of nutmeg.

Back then, the Banda Islands were the world's only known source of nutmeg.

The Dutch Governor of the islands -- Jan Pieterszoon Coen -- needed to control things since nutmeg was so valuable. A sack of nutmeg, for example, was sufficient to buy a large house in central London.

Problem was -- the local peasants didn't cooperate. So Mr Coen called in his private army of Japanese mercenaries and .................

Here is a BBC video that explains things. The part about the Samurai is from about 17 minutes onwards.

==============================================

Back on topic. I shared the Samurai painting purely as an indication of how effective (and ruthless) these mercenaries were.

[Kudel]

Thank you for sharing this topic andrew very fascinating ,do you know of any good books concerning this subject and al things ancient siam.

I used to be a litlle bit of a history fanatic myself when i was a kid,and i'm a little fed up with books like private dancer etc.....

[andrew]

Thank you for sharing this topic andrew very fascinating ,do you know of any good books concerning this subject and al things ancient siam.

I used to be a litlle bit of a history fanatic myself when i was a kid,and i'm a little fed up with books like private dancer etc.....

You're very welcome.

I'll try to finish this topic over the next day or so.

If it's of any interest, I knew nothing at all about the history of Siam until about two years ago. I was a complete MORON!

And then ...... I met a girl on a dating site.

And she had a Japanese surname. And she talked about "my Sultan". And she talked about "my ancestors".

And she talked about "my cannon".

=================================

Tomorrow I'll come back and share some links.

[toybits]

Good information. Thanks for sharing.

[farang000999]

So there were Japanese samurais helping farang kill Thai people in Siam in 1621?

[anon210]

A nice piece of history. Thanks for sharing!

[jocko]

Good topic for a change very interesting.

Well done the OP.

[theblether]

The Japanese became a closed society as they feared the influence and encroachment of the Western powers, I believe in particular the Portuguese. We covered the topic last month as to what happened as a result of the USA's decision to send the largest US navy yet assembled to bomb Japan in 1855.

There's a linear track between the three "invasions" as Andrew put's it and the US is responsible for two of them. I'll wait on Andrew returning with his next instalment before possibly, ahem, crossing swords with him.

[jocko]

The Japanese became a closed society as they feared the influence and encroachment of the Western powers, I believe in particular the Portuguese.  We covered the topic last month as to what happened as a result of the USA's decision to send the largest US navy yet assembled to bomb Japan in 1855. 

 

There's a linear track between the three "invasions" as Andrew put's it and the US is responsible for two of them.  I'll wait on Andrew returning with his next instalment before possibly, ahem, crossing swords with him. 

I remember reading about a Scotsman Thomas Blake Glover from Fraserburgh who become a bit of a hero about the time in Japan

[theblether]

The Japanese became a closed society as they feared the influence and encroachment of the Western powers, I believe in particular the Portuguese. We covered the topic last month as to what happened as a result of the USA's decision to send the largest US navy yet assembled to bomb Japan in 1855.

There's a linear track between the three "invasions" as Andrew put's it and the US is responsible for two of them. I'll wait on Andrew returning with his next instalment before possibly, ahem, crossing swords with him.

I remember reading about a Scotsman Thomas Blake Glover from Fraserburgh who become a bit of a hero about the time in Japan

All to do with the Rise of the Meiji, the transformation of Japan from pacifism to militarism.

Have a look at Samuel Craig too, the man that founded the Imperial Russian navy, a fascinating story among many stories of Scots in Russia.

http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/scoruss.html

This is relevant to the topic as the first major Imperial clash involving Japanese forces was between Russia and Japan at the behest of the US.

[AyG]

Why is this topic titled "Siam from a Japanese perspective"? It appears to have nothing to do with Thailand.

The picture is of a massacre in the Banda Islands - part of the Indonesian archipelago.

[Kudel]

Maybe going of topic here.

But also look up Gustave Rolin Jaqeumyns a Belgian who was a personal advisor to king Rama V .

And togheter with Robert Kirkpatrick helped to reform the Thai state and Legal system in Siam.

[theblether]

I wasn't aware of a Robert Kirkpatrick, do you have any background information on him?

[Kudel]

Why is this topic titled "Siam from a Japanese perspective"? It appears to have nothing to do with Thailand.

The picture is of a massacre in the Banda Islands - part of the Indonesian archipelago.

The topic starter andrew asked a few questions in his op ,as to direct people like you to do some research yourself on the subject of japan and siam wich has a lot to do with Thailand.

Simple isn't it?

[jocko]

 

The Japanese became a closed society as they feared the influence and encroachment of the Western powers, I believe in particular the Portuguese.  We covered the topic last month as to what happened as a result of the USA's decision to send the largest US navy yet assembled to bomb Japan in 1855. 

 

There's a linear track between the three "invasions" as Andrew put's it and the US is responsible for two of them.  I'll wait on Andrew returning with his next instalment before possibly, ahem, crossing swords with him. 

I remember reading about a Scotsman Thomas Blake Glover from Fraserburgh who become a bit of a hero about the time in Japan

 

 

All to do with the Rise of the Meiji, the transformation of Japan from pacifism to militarism.  

 

Have a look at Samuel Craig too, the man that founded the Imperial Russian navy,  a fascinating story among many stories of Scots in Russia.

 

 

http://www.scotshistoryonline.co.uk/scoruss.html

 

This is relevant to the topic as the first major Imperial clash involving Japanese forces was between Russia and Japan at the behest of the US.

. John Paul Jones who is recognized to be the Father of the American Navy and your link about the Scots helping the Russia navy

.Funny old world

[andrew]

Why is this topic titled "Siam from a Japanese perspective"? It appears to have nothing to do with Thailand.

The picture is of a massacre in the Banda Islands - part of the Indonesian archipelago.

The topic starter andrew asked a few questions in his op ,as to direct people like you to do some research yourself on the subject of japan and siam wich has a lot to do with Thailand.

Simple isn't it?

I need to come back and finish off my thread.

I'll answer all the questions I asked later this evening.

Soon -- you'll all be Samurai experts!

===============================================

One thing. If any of you can prove that you're genuinely interested in this aspect of history, I will PM you something that's almost impossible to believe.

This little "something" is a surname.

[jocko]

 

Why is this topic titled "Siam from a Japanese perspective"? It appears to have nothing to do with Thailand.

 

The picture is of a massacre in the Banda Islands - part of the Indonesian archipelago.

 

 

The topic starter andrew asked a few questions in his op ,as to direct people like you to do some research yourself on the subject of japan and siam wich has a lot to do with Thailand.

Simple isn't it?

 

 

I need to come back and finish off my thread.

 

I'll answer all the questions I asked later this evening. 

 

Soon -- you'll all be Samurai experts!

 

===============================================

 

One thing. If any of you can prove that you're genuinely interested in this aspect of history, I will PM you something that's almost impossible to believe. 

 

This little "something" is a surname. 

Cruise (Tom) ?

[andrew]

Why is this topic titled "Siam from a Japanese perspective"? It appears to have nothing to do with Thailand.

The picture is of a massacre in the Banda Islands - part of the Indonesian archipelago.

The topic starter andrew asked a few questions in his op ,as to direct people like you to do some research yourself on the subject of japan and siam wich has a lot to do with Thailand.

Simple isn't it?

I need to come back and finish off my thread.

I'll answer all the questions I asked later this evening.

Soon -- you'll all be Samurai experts!

===============================================

One thing. If any of you can prove that you're genuinely interested in this aspect of history, I will PM you something that's almost impossible to believe.

This little "something" is a surname.

Cruise (Tom) ?

Nice! Great movie, though.

[andrew]

Putting things into context.

Here is another post not related to Thailand. I'm writing this in order to "paint a canvas" which will give greater meaning to things when I get back on topic.

The Samurai of Seville

Have you ever read the novel "Shogun"? It was written by James Clavell and was a major bestseller a few years back. The story was inspired by the life of Williams Adams, a ship builder's son from Gillingham, Kent, who became the first ever Western Samurai.

Part of Mr Adam's job was to help build Western-style ships that could manage transatlantic and transpacific crossings. He helped build the San Juan Bautista.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_warship_San_Buena_Ventura

One of these Western-style ships set sail from Japan and went to Mexico. It then went to Spain. It tried to sail up the Guadalquivir River to Seville, but it got stuck at a little town called Coria Del Rio. From there, the Japanese got out and traveled the rest of the way to Seville on foot.

But something odd happened in Seville. For some reason, six of the Samurai decided they didn't want to go home. They wanted to stay.

These six men said goodbye to their colleauges as they boarded the ship in Cori Del Rio, and these six men remained in Spain.

No one knows what happened next. I guess these six men met local women and got married and started families. One thing that is known is that these six men threw away their surnames. The Spanish locals found them too hard to pronounce. So these six Samurai all adopted the surname "Japon".

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In the late 1980s, the Major of Coria Del Rio went to Japan on a sort of trade mission. He discussed all the usual garbage, and then he said something rather interesting.

He said that the population of his town was about 25000. He said that about 600 of these people had what appeared to be a Japanese surname. He said that most of these people had no idea who they were. He said that most of these people didn't care about their surname.

He also said that a few of these people had maintained a strange oral tradition. He said that these people claimed to be of Japanese descent. He said that they talked about their great great ancestors who had come to Spain hundreds of years ago.

===============================================================

The Japanese did their homework. They checked their history. They worked it all out.

When the news finally broke, the Japanese press had a field day.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2003/12/11/national/spains-japon-clan-has-reunion-to-trace-its-17th-century-roots/#.UfqWwNI3Doq

http://www.straitstimes.com/the-big-story/asia-report/japan/story/japan-prince-honours-spain%E2%80%99s-samurai-past-20130615

[theblether]

Strange you mention Seville, my Great Grandfather x about 25 was killed there in 1329.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Douglas,_Lord_of_Douglas

He was carrying the heart of Robert De Bruce when he was killed. By strange coincidence a guy called Robert De Kirkpatrick was also a close confidante of Robert De Bruce.

[andrew]

The Sakuko Edict of 1635

Isn't history boring! It's just a long succession of tedious dates that no one wants to remember!

The good news is that in order to follow this thread you'll only ever need to remember one date.

The date in question is 1635. Alternatively -- if you want to sound important -- you could talk about the Sakuko Edict of 1635.

All of this is very easy to explain. In 1635, the Japanese decided to seclude themselve from the outside world.

Here are the key points of the edict:

1. Japanese ships are strictly forbidden to leave for foreign countries.

2. No Japanese is permitted to go abroad. If there is anyone who attempts to do so secretly, he must be executed. The ship so involved must be impounded and its owner arrested, and the matter must be reported to the higher authority.

3. If any Japanese returns from overseas after residing there, he must be put to death.

4. If there is any place where the teachings of the [Catholic] priests is practiced, you must order a thorough investigation.

5. Any informer revealing the whereabouts of the followers of the priests must be rewarded accordingly. If anyone reveals the whereabouts of a high ranking priest, he must be given one hundred pieces of silver. For those of lower ranks, depending on the deed, the reward must be set accordingly.

6. If there are any Southern Barbarians who propagate the teachings of the priests, or otherwise commit crimes, they may be incarcerated in the prison.

7. All incoming ships must be carefully searched for the followers of the priests.


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In a nutshell, thousands of Japanese Samurai came to Thailand during the three or four decades prior to 1635.

And after 1635, they were buggered. They were stuck here. They couldn't go home.

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A few links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku_Edict_of_1635

http://users.wfu.edu/watts/w03_Japancl.html

http://www.rit.edu/news/story.php?id=48154

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Coming soon ...................

[andrew]

Surnames

Most of you -- or perhaps all of you -- have a Thai wife or girlfriend.

And without exception, your wives and girlfriends will have Thai surnames.

It's all quite normal. Thais didn't have surnames until 1913. They were introduced by Sandhurst-educated King Vajiravudh (King Rama VI).

King Vajiravudh thought it would be good for Thais to follow the Western "model" and adopt surnames.

The deal was simple:

1. Back in 1913, you went to 7-11.

2. You chose a surname from one of the shelves.

2. You then took a taxi to the Department of Surnames.

4. You queued up in ORDERLY FASHION.

5. You waited your turn.

6. And then you registered your new surname.

Talk to your GF / wife about her surname. You'll find that not only is it Thai, but it also has some kind of meaning. All Thai surnames have a meaning. Ask her to explain the meaning to you. You might find it quite interesting.

========================================

Japan was pretty much the same. In 1898, they enacted the Family Register Law. The goverment basically made it mandatory for everyone to have a family name.

Prior to this, few outside the ruling class had a family name.

Note the phrase "ruling class". It means nobles. It means the elite. It means the Samurai.

This is why the Samurai who came to Siam had surnames.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2012/01/22/life/what-to-call-baby/#.Ufq1FNI3Dop

[simple1]

Surnames

Most of you -- or perhaps all of you -- have a Thai wife or girlfriend.

And without exception, your wives and girlfriends will have Thai surnames.

It's all quite normal. Thais didn't have surnames until 1913. They were introduced by Sandhurst-educated King Vajiravudh (King Rama VI).

King Vajiravudh thought it would be good for Thais to follow the Western "model" and adopt surnames.

The deal was simple:

1. Back in 1913, you went to 7-11.

2. You chose a surname from one of the shelves.

2. You then took a taxi to the Department of Surnames.

4. You queued up in ORDERLY FASHION.

5. You waited your turn.

6. And then you registered your new surname.

Talk to your GF / wife about her surname. You'll find that not only is it Thai, but it also has some kind of meaning. All Thai surnames have a meaning. Ask her to explain the meaning to you. You might find it quite interesting.

========================================

Japan was pretty much the same. In 1898, they enacted the Family Register Law. The goverment basically made it mandatory for everyone to have a family name.

Prior to this, few outside the ruling class had a family name.

Note the phrase "ruling class". It means nobles. It means the elite. It means the Samurai.

This is why the Samurai who came to Siam had surnames.

http://www.japantimes.co.jp/life/2012/01/22/life/what-to-call-baby/#.Ufq1FNI3Dop

Interesting topic. Item I highlighted does have some exceptions, such as Thai Muslims; some do, some don't have a Thai surname.

[gpdjohn]

This is good stuff..

Refreshing & a good learn.

[jocko]

Once you start looking at history on your PC you are on there for hours .

Great stuff though.

[theblether]

Once you start looking at history on your PC you are on there for hours .

Great stuff though.

There's some excellent full length history documentaries of youtube, you can get lost for days in there. Here's my latest watch list......

Vietnam War

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj1X2WpiiOE

World War 2 in Colour

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmkg4TpgEGM

Vietcong Declassified

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78ZULKffdP4

The Battle of Stalingrad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynKTjCrvkig

Lord Of The Rings Facts Behind The Story

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krqmf5oBDXk

and Denver guilty dog.....come on, I can't be serious all the time.

[jocko]

Once you start looking at history on your PC you are on there for hours .

Great stuff though.

 

There's some excellent full length history documentaries of youtube,  you can get lost for days in there.  Here's my latest watch list......

 

Vietnam War 

 

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yj1X2WpiiOE

 

World War 2 in Colour

 

 

Vietcong Declassified

 

 

The Battle of Stalingrad

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynKTjCrvkig

 

Lord Of The Rings Facts Behind The Story

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krqmf5oBDXk

 

and Denver guilty dog.....come on, I can't be serious all the time. 

 

Please don't mention youtube.

TIP

If you ever get notice that video is not available in your country . Tweak the URL

Get rid of watch and replace= with forward slash and then enter video ref number then you should be good to go.

Love the bad dog clip 27.5m people have seen the guilty culprit

[Thai at Heart]

This is very very interesting