Thailand and the Vietnam War

[theblether]

I had a great conversation (in Lao) with a local Thai guy in Ubon back in 2005 about his memories of the Vietnam War years there...

He told me that back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars...but they were strictly segregated, bars for black GIs and bars for white GIs (both types serviced by local girls, 'natch)...he said the main job of the MPs was keeping the whites and blacks from killing each other...he also said that in the high-rise hotel in downtown Ubon that's still in service (I can't remember the name, I stayed there once), that if a group of white GIs was in the elevator, a black guy would wait for the next car to get in, and vice-versa if a white found a car full of blacks...

This guy (probably in his early 60s when I talked to him) also told me that in the early-mid 70s, the districts (amphoe) all around Ubon provincial capital were completely controlled by the Thai communists...one never went outside of the capital unless absolutely necessary, especially after dark...the Thai government had no control outside of the capital to the Lao border...which rings true, the Thai government didn't really try to control Isan at all until the late 1960s, when the communists started making serious headway there...

When I was in Korat & Tahkli 1965/66 the bars were segregated because the blacks wanted to be separate from the whites, not the other way around. Blacks could always come into the white bars. But whites were not welcome in the black bars. The whites and blacks liked totally different kinds of music, so we didn't want to mix partly because of that. I saw very few fights between whites and blacks. On duty everyone got along. This isn't what I heard from somebody else or read in a book, internet or magazine. This is how I experienced it. Other may have seen it differently.

In the early 90's there was still a tendency for black personnel to lay claim to certain night clubs around the various bases in Germany, and with that I'm referring to civilian clubs. I walked in to one and was amazed when I was confronted by four black guys fixing for a fight as I was the wrong colour. I've got to say, I was staggered, I just could not believe it.

The posts I've quoted ring true to me.

[SinglePot]

Vietnam was the free world (the US) v the Communists if I recall correctly.

Interested to hear from any veterans if it made any difference whether your fellow GI was black or white when you had the VC on your arse?

[historyprof]

Race Riot Long bihn Jail that occurred there Aug 29, 1968. Interesting story.

Within the context of all that the word "Vietnam" has come to signify for America, Long Binh Jail was but a blip on the screen. But if someone really wants to understand the Vietnam experience, other than a Hollywood version of it, what happened there should be included in the studies. And Cecil Barr Currey's, "Long Binh Jail: An Oral History of Vietnam's Notorious U.S. Military Prison," is a good place to start

Edited September 10, 2013 by historyprof

[SinglePot]

Race Riot Long bihn Jail that occurred there Aug 29, 1968. Interesting story.

....if you have an axe to grind.

[harrry]

I had a great conversation (in Lao) with a local Thai guy in Ubon back in 2005 about his memories of the Vietnam War years there...

He told me that back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars...but they were strictly segregated, bars for black GIs and bars for white GIs (both types serviced by local girls, 'natch)...he said the main job of the MPs was keeping the whites and blacks from killing each other...he also said that in the high-rise hotel in downtown Ubon that's still in service (I can't remember the name, I stayed there once), that if a group of white GIs was in the elevator, a black guy would wait for the next car to get in, and vice-versa if a white found a car full of blacks...

This guy (probably in his early 60s when I talked to him) also told me that in the early-mid 70s, the districts (amphoe) all around Ubon provincial capital were completely controlled by the Thai communists...one never went outside of the capital unless absolutely necessary, especially after dark...the Thai government had no control outside of the capital to the Lao border...which rings true, the Thai government didn't really try to control Isan at all until the late 1960s, when the communists started making serious headway there...

When I was in Korat & Tahkli 1965/66 the bars were segregated because the blacks wanted to be separate from the whites, not the other way around. Blacks could always come into the white bars. But whites were not welcome in the black bars. The whites and blacks liked totally different kinds of music, so we didn't want to mix partly because of that. I saw very few fights between whites and blacks. On duty everyone got along. This isn't what I heard from somebody else or read in a book, internet or magazine. This is how I experienced it. Other may have seen it differently.

When I visit Korat there was a big notice on the board of the mess I visited that said bands were forbidden to play "Dixie".

I was also surpised to see Airmen saluting the flag as it was lowered with 2 fingers.

Edited September 10, 2013 by harrry

[historyprof]

You don't salute in a combat zone.

[SinglePot]

"This topic is about people's personal experiences, not about governmental decisions and the wisdom of the War."

OP. TheBlether

[historyprof]

"This topic is about people's personal experiences, not about governmental decisions and the wisdom of the War."

OP. TheBlether

Why did you post that? Did I miss something?

[harrry]

You don't salute in a combat zone.

That is possibly why I saw several times raising 2 fingers in the direction of the flag. And they were not making Winston Churchill's victory sign.......and the band still was not playing dixie.

[SinglePot]

"This topic is about people's personal experiences, not about governmental decisions and the wisdom of the War."

OP. TheBlether

Why did you post that? Did I miss something?

LB Jail is relevant if invited veteran raises it.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Re the value of the PDJ there in NE Laos, it pretty well controlled access to Luang Prabang, as has been mentioned in an earlier reply, and further south, to the administrative capital of Vientiane. And beyond that, Udorn and NE Thailand, for the folks who were nervous.

Stopping the NVA were a ragtag bunch of Hmong and Lao Thueng fighters and several battalions of Thai "volunteers."

One major blocking point was the large base at Long Tieng. Below a book report regarding the defense of Long Tieng, THE BATTLE FOR SKYLINE RIDGE.

Mac

A new ebook delivers a long overdue account of the heroic and finally victorious stand by a band of Hmong, Lao a fierce months- long assault from an elite North Vietnamese force By Alan Dawson

The Battle for Skyline Ridge lasted 108 days, involved thousands of troops from four countries,

war planes from three, and is probably the least known important military engagement in recent history.

James E ‘‘Mule’’ Parker aims to throw light on that obscurity, and is succeeding with his book, Timeline: Battle for Skyline Ridge 18 December 1971 to 4 April 1972. Parker is one of the band of CIA agents who helped direct and support the Hmong, Lao and Thai forces who defied predictions and one of Vietnam’s greatest field generals to do the impossible: hold Skyline Ridge and stop Hanoi’s elite divisions at a key time in the Vietnam War era.

It has been a long time since events in Laos constituted the secret war, and the CIA base Lima Site 20-Alternate at Long Tieng was, as a contemporary Bangkok Post article called it, ‘‘the most secret place on Earth’’.

It has been so long that the men who kept the secrets back in those days lamented to Parker a while back that no one had ever made public an account that tied together a discrete parts into a package. Many of them contributed personal photos, which make up an important and fascinating section of this digital volume.

There is an annual reunion in Bangkok of the Unknown Warriors who fought in the secret war. The CIA archives, complete with names of the agents, have been online for several years.

Googling ‘‘Skyline Ridge Laos’’ yields several summaries of the event, but no real history or close inspection of what one online report correctly calls ‘‘one of the most significant battles’’ of the time.

‘‘It didn’t take much research to find all those elements in the Plain of Jars/Skyline battles,’’ Parker wrote in an email exchange.

But then, in addition to the US-Thai side, ‘the names of PAVN [People’s Army of Vietnam] General Nguyen Huu An and Colonel Nguyen Choung kept coming up again and again as pivotal commanders — and our main adversaries, which made it more personal’’.

Reading Timeline: Battle for Skyline Ridge 18 December 1971 to 4 April 1972 reminded me of the story of the young war photographer Tim Page. After nearly being killed twice, Page was approached on his near-death bed by a book publisher who described a book that would ‘‘once and for all take the glamour out of war’’. Page was stunned. ‘‘You can’t take the glamour out of that. It’s like trying to take the glamour out of sex, trying to take the glamour out of the Rolling Stones.’’

Substitute heroism for glamour, and you have Parker’s description of the Skyline Ridge battle of Laos. Whatever you think about the Vietnam War era, this book is simply the description of courageous actions in a dark place where everyone respected friend and foe alike, ut fought literally to the death for principle, friendship and honour.

There’s not a coward or a villain here on any side. Parker has delved deeply into both official and personal records and recollections of the men — and a few women — who met and struggled on the slopes of Skyline Ridge and the surrounding plains, or helped direct the battle from the rear.

The setting was the Vietnam War. North Vietnam needed control of a reliable supply route to the South. The Lao army, the resident Hmong, the Thai irregulars and the CIA needed to stop them. It was, really, that simple.

In the dry season of late 1971, elite divisions of the PAVN under Dien Bien Phu veteran and Gen Nguyen Huu An swept across the Plain of Jars with relative ease. Thai forces, in particular, put up staunch resistance, only to be overwhelmed and forced to retreat.

By mid-December, there was just one more major roadblock between Gen An’s ‘invincible’’ army and a clear shot down the Ho Chi Minh trail to Cambodia and into South Vietnam.

Washington, and in particular Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, was certain of defeat.

They were wrong. For An took the offensive one ridge line too far.

Timeline details the 1971 version of a coalition of the willing. At the top, it included the CIA’s chief of station Hugh Tovar, a man of considerable courage. Gen Vang Pao, possibly the most underrated military commander in Asian history, assembled his Hmong warriors, alongside a new CIA case officer, Jerry ‘‘Hog’’ Daniels. Under a secret, new US-Thai diplomatic agreement, Lt Col (later Gen) Vitoon Yasawatdi raised irregular, volunteer forces, to whom he was known as

‘‘Dhep333’’—Angel333,the number adopted from the unit designation of his Udon Thani

headquarters.

Fighters and bombers flown by Vietnamese, Lao, Hmong and US pilots were an important

part of the battle. So were the big guns of the artillery.

But the deciding factor at Skyline Ridge was the infantryman, the soldier with a rifle, loyalty and grit. In the end, Thai and Hmong soldiers defeated the Vietnamese soldiers in a great battle.

While the general outline of the Thai contribution to the Laos war has never been secret, Timeline finally makes it crystal clear. Regular troops and irregular volunteers were the difference in stopping North Vietnam’s best troops in their tracks.

The eye-opening irony of the Battle for Skyline Ridge is that in almost all ways,Vietnam was the hidebound regular army, and the Lao-Hmong-Thai forces, with their US case officers, were the guerrillas.

Every time Gen An marshalled his troops for another attack, Vang Pao and Dhep 333 were disrupting, interrupting, cutting off. And Vietnam committed virtually every sin of the big army combatting the guerrilla in his own backyard. Overall, the Vietnamese failed to establish a supply line, so they ran out of water, food and ammunition. At the end, troops were so weak from thirst they could barely fight.

But while Timeline is the most ambitious project so far to assemble the facts and figures behind the secret war, its success is to reveal the human stories of men at war. The dry facts of Gen An are easily accessible. But it took Parker to unearth the diaries and classified Vietnamese army reports of, say, Gen An — who died a national hero in April, 1995 — and write:

‘‘North Vietnamese General Nguyen Huu An stood hidden near a hilltop east of the Plaine de Jars in the Lao northeast, looking at the swaying savannah grass in the 250 square mile [650 sq km] plateau below. Some 4,000 Thai irregulars and Hmong guerrilla in the US Central Intelligence Agency army under overall command of Gen Vang Pao defended the high mountain plain to his front . . .’’Clearly, Thailand deserves to know more of ‘‘Dhep’’. Politically, Gen Vitoon was no angel, and his poor decision making in the 1973 revolution and the 1976 coup put a stain on his legacy. But as a field commander and a leader of men in combat, Thailand has

had few equals.

And of course everyone in this book, from US President Nixon to the men of the CIA who have never before been named, let alone presented in contemporary photos, their fate was never to be honoured for their amazing sacrifice and heroism in the Vietnam-era war.

The quality of the warriors at Skyline Ridge, and its few supporters in Washington, Bangkok and Vientiane, made a difference. If Mr Kissinger had prevailed, the US would have been a powder monkey at Skyline. If the Thai government had turned ‘‘neutral’’ and kept Dhep 333 at home, a much different and more dangerous end would have been written to the Vietnam War.

Journalists have referred to the war as ‘‘a national mistake’’ — a phrase used as fact, not pinion. Even if that is true, demeaning or even ignoring the considerable sacrifice and achievement of the men from Skyline Ridge is grossly unfair, and even spiteful.

Timeline, more than just a fascinating read about a pivotal battle, is also a vindication of the men who directed and decided the outcome of the 108-day Battle for Skyline Ridge.

Parker lived in Udon Thani with his wife Brenda and two adopted Thai children, and mostly commuted to the war daily. Before Timeline, he fought the CIA censors for the right to publish three books about his experience, Last Man Out, Codename Mule and Covert Ops: The CIA’s Secret War In Laos. 

‘Timeline: Battle for Skyline Ridge 18 December 1971 to 4 April 1972’, by James E Parker, 2013, can be purchased as an ebook for US$7.85 (254 baht) from Amazon.com or through the author’s website, www.muleorations.com

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[SinglePot]

Thanks for this Mac.

Appreciated.

[historyprof]

"This topic is about people's personal experiences, not about governmental decisions and the wisdom of the War."

OP. TheBlether

Why did you post that? Did I miss something?

LB Jail is relevant if invited veteran raises it.

I lived about a mile away from LBJ for a year. How's that?

[SinglePot]

Race Riot Long bihn Jail that occurred there Aug 29, 1968. Interesting story.

Within the context of all that the word "Vietnam" has come to signify for America, Long Binh Jail was but a blip on the screen. But if someone really wants to understand the Vietnam experience, other than a Hollywood version of it, what happened there should be included in the studies. And Cecil Barr Currey's, "Long Binh Jail: An Oral History of Vietnam's Notorious U.S. Military Prison," is a good place to start

If you provide context, it makes it a lot easier for simple observers like me to understand.

[historyprof]

Race Riot Long bihn Jail that occurred there Aug 29, 1968. Interesting story.

Within the context of all that the word "Vietnam" has come to signify for America, Long Binh Jail was but a blip on the screen. But if someone really wants to understand the Vietnam experience, other than a Hollywood version of it, what happened there should be included in the studies. And Cecil Barr Currey's, "Long Binh Jail: An Oral History of Vietnam's Notorious U.S. Military Prison," is a good place to start

If you provide context, it makes it a lot easier for simple observers like me to understand.

Long Binh was the largest military base the world had ever had. It was a big walled city. Many men (hundreds of thousands) arrived there by air; stayed for a year and went home by air and all they saw of Vietnam was Long Binh.

In 10 years Long Binh may have been attacked once or twice and it didn't amount to much. The ammo dump blew once when I was there and someone lobbed some rockets in a couple of times. If you are a VC where is the fun of attacking 100,000 clerks. They'll kill you with paper cuts.

LBJ was the jail at Long Binh and safer for black guys than out in the bush. In a year there I heard there was a riot. Didn't know it was a race riot; didn't care. I only drove past LBJ once in 12 months. No black and white bars in Long Binh that I knew of. One big NCO club that had Korean go go girls, steaks and ice cream and rose wine. Thailand was a lot more fun than Long Binh. Bob Hope came to both places.

[SinglePot]

'Long Binh was the largest military base the world had ever had.'

Military historians may disagree with you but thanks for the personal insights.

[dennisgb45]

I had a great conversation (in Lao) with a local Thai guy in Ubon back in 2005 about his memories of the Vietnam War years there...

He told me that back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars...but they were strictly segregated, bars for black GIs and bars for white GIs (both types serviced by local girls, 'natch)...he said the main job of the MPs was keeping the whites and blacks from killing each other...he also said that in the high-rise hotel in downtown Ubon that's still in service (I can't remember the name, I stayed there once), that if a group of white GIs was in the elevator, a black guy would wait for the next car to get in, and vice-versa if a white found a car full of blacks...

This guy (probably in his early 60s when I talked to him) also told me that in the early-mid 70s, the districts (amphoe) all around Ubon provincial capital were completely controlled by the Thai communists...one never went outside of the capital unless absolutely necessary, especially after dark...the Thai government had no control outside of the capital to the Lao border...which rings true, the Thai government didn't really try to control Isan at all until the late 1960s, when the communists started making serious headway there...

When I was in Korat & Tahkli 1965/66 the bars were segregated because the blacks wanted to be separate from the whites, not the other way around. Blacks could always come into the white bars. But whites were not welcome in the black bars. The whites and blacks liked totally different kinds of music, so we didn't want to mix partly because of that. I saw very few fights between whites and blacks. On duty everyone got along. This isn't what I heard from somebody else or read in a book, internet or magazine. This is how I experienced it. Other may have seen it differently.

When I visit Korat there was a big notice on the board of the mess I visited that said bands were forbidden to play "Dixie".

I was also surpised to see Airmen saluting the flag as it was lowered with 2 fingers.

Harry

What year was this? I don't recall any signs like that. We didn't salute officers at Korat. But as far as the a 2 finger salute at the flag ceremony...I've no idea. I think I was way too busy rigging drag chutes to attend that. But things always were changing. Nothing stayed static. I think thats why we are seeing so many different viewpoints here.

We came over TDY and brought our own medics & doctors. We were issued condoms, 3 a day. When stopped by the AP's you were supposed to have one in your possesion. I have no idea how long that lasted...we were also given "No Sweat Pills". An antibiotic (Pennicillan???) to ward off VD....Just in case we got exposed. But then they decided that we might build up an immunity...so that was cancelled. So, for instance....if someone was there in say July 1965...he might have experienced different regs than someone there in August 1965. Also, that was a long time ago...I have been back on Korat RTAFB & Tahkli RTAFB recently. Niether was laid out exactly as I recall it. But some of the old landmarks are still there.

[historyprof]

'Long Binh was the largest military base the world had ever had.'

Military historians may disagree with you but thanks for the personal insights.

What base was bigger? Long Binh 50,000 permanent and up to 20 0r 30,000 temp.

Edited September 10, 2013 by historyprof

[theblether]

There is a value in understanding some of the tensions within the military at that time so thanks to historyprof for his input.

It's interesting to note that there are Thais that are still talking about segregated bars to this day as described by ajaan. That type of social commentary is right on the mark with the OP which is Thailand and the Vietnam War.

[harrry]

I had a great conversation (in Lao) with a local Thai guy in Ubon back in 2005 about his memories of the Vietnam War years there...

He told me that back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars...but they were strictly segregated, bars for black GIs and bars for white GIs (both types serviced by local girls, 'natch)...he said the main job of the MPs was keeping the whites and blacks from killing each other...he also said that in the high-rise hotel in downtown Ubon that's still in service (I can't remember the name, I stayed there once), that if a group of white GIs was in the elevator, a black guy would wait for the next car to get in, and vice-versa if a white found a car full of blacks...

This guy (probably in his early 60s when I talked to him) also told me that in the early-mid 70s, the districts (amphoe) all around Ubon provincial capital were completely controlled by the Thai communists...one never went outside of the capital unless absolutely necessary, especially after dark...the Thai government had no control outside of the capital to the Lao border...which rings true, the Thai government didn't really try to control Isan at all until the late 1960s, when the communists started making serious headway there...

When I was in Korat & Tahkli 1965/66 the bars were segregated because the blacks wanted to be separate from the whites, not the other way around. Blacks could always come into the white bars. But whites were not welcome in the black bars. The whites and blacks liked totally different kinds of music, so we didn't want to mix partly because of that. I saw very few fights between whites and blacks. On duty everyone got along. This isn't what I heard from somebody else or read in a book, internet or magazine. This is how I experienced it. Other may have seen it differently.

When I visit Korat there was a big notice on the board of the mess I visited that said bands were forbidden to play "Dixie".

I was also surpised to see Airmen saluting the flag as it was lowered with 2 fingers.

Harry

What year was this? I don't recall any signs like that. We didn't salute officers at Korat. But as far as the a 2 finger salute at the flag ceremony...I've no idea. I think I was way too busy rigging drag chutes to attend that. But things always were changing. Nothing stayed static. I think thats why we are seeing so many different viewpoints here.

We came over TDY and brought our own medics & doctors. We were issued condoms, 3 a day. When stopped by the AP's you were supposed to have one in your possesion. I have no idea how long that lasted...we were also given "No Sweat Pills". An antibiotic (Pennicillan???) to ward off VD....Just in case we got exposed. But then they decided that we might build up an immunity...so that was cancelled. So, for instance....if someone was there in say July 1965...he might have experienced different regs than someone there in August 1965. Also, that was a long time ago...I have been back on Korat RTAFB & Tahkli RTAFB recently. Niether was laid out exactly as I recall it. But some of the old landmarks are still there.

It was only a social visit...was pretty close to the endo of the war...my guess is about time people were ready to go home and fed up

The order was one for all bands that a few songs were forbidden to be played. One of them was Dixie...the others I cannot remember but they were songs which people associated with their own race in some way. Remember there was a lot of grass being smoked there possibly because things were trying to be forgetten too. May have helped the casual atmosphere.

I was a civilian just taken on base by a friend for the day. I never served anywhere I left the army just as Vietnam was starting......they never asked me back. I am glad they did not.

[wileycoyote]

I was in Thailand when Saigon fell,to most Thais it was just another day

[SinglePot]

There is a value in understanding some of the tensions within the military at that time so thanks to historyprof for his input.

It's interesting to note that there are Thais that are still talking about segregated bars to this day as described by ajaan. That type of social commentary is right on the mark with the OP which is Thailand and the Vietnam War.

Sir, yes Sir.

[IMA_FARANG]

I'm not saying that many bombs weren't simply jettisoned over areas of Laos rather than being taken back to bases in Thailand where they were loaded on missions that for whatever reason the munitions were never dropped.

All I want to say that you need to understand that there were at least three groups in Laos at times during the Vietnam war ho each thought of themselves as the "real" government in Laos and they fought each other.

There were bases and strongholds in Laos where U.S. forces supported those factions .... including "protecting" those bases and strongholds from another group or local warlord.

That fighting between those groups also sometimes took place on the Plain of Jars.

No matter what was announced or written for public consumption, I'm quite certain that at least some of those munitions were deliberately dropped against those groups who were considered to be "unfriendly" to U.S. interests on purpose.

Not ALL the bombs dropped on the Plain of Jars area was unintentional and not all those munitions were dropped in safe areas, they were deliberately "expended" against targets.

In both Laos and Cambodia, it was intentional.

In Laos, that was probably especially likely to be true if the village they were dropped "near" to happened to be a Pathet Lao controlled village.

[chiang mai]

I'm not saying that many bombs weren't simply jettisoned over areas of Laos rather than being taken back to bases in Thailand where they were loaded on missions that for whatever reason the munitions were never dropped.

All I want to say that you need to understand that there were at least three groups in Laos at times during the Vietnam war ho each thought of themselves as the "real" government in Laos and they fought each other.

There were bases and strongholds in Laos where U.S. forces supported those factions .... including "protecting" those bases and strongholds from another group or local warlord.

That fighting between those groups also sometimes took place on the Plain of Jars.

No matter what was announced or written for public consumption, I'm quite certain that at least some of those munitions were deliberately dropped against those groups who were considered to be "unfriendly" to U.S. interests on purpose.

Not ALL the bombs dropped on the Plain of Jars area was unintentional and not all those munitions were dropped in safe areas, they were deliberately "expended" against targets.

In both Laos and Cambodia, it was intentional.

In Laos, that was probably especially likely to be true if the village they were dropped "near" to happened to be a Pathet Lao controlled village.

I do understand that it's a complex pictures and that there might be a number of reasons why, I'd just like to be clear in my own mind as to whether US planes were actually forbidden or not by the Thai government to return to bases in Thailand with munitions on board because that has been my understanding to date.

[historyprof]

I'm not saying that many bombs weren't simply jettisoned over areas of Laos rather than being taken back to bases in Thailand where they were loaded on missions that for whatever reason the munitions were never dropped.

All I want to say that you need to understand that there were at least three groups in Laos at times during the Vietnam war ho each thought of themselves as the "real" government in Laos and they fought each other.

There were bases and strongholds in Laos where U.S. forces supported those factions .... including "protecting" those bases and strongholds from another group or local warlord.

That fighting between those groups also sometimes took place on the Plain of Jars.

No matter what was announced or written for public consumption, I'm quite certain that at least some of those munitions were deliberately dropped against those groups who were considered to be "unfriendly" to U.S. interests on purpose.

Not ALL the bombs dropped on the Plain of Jars area was unintentional and not all those munitions were dropped in safe areas, they were deliberately "expended" against targets.

In both Laos and Cambodia, it was intentional.

In Laos, that was probably especially likely to be true if the village they were dropped "near" to happened to be a Pathet Lao controlled village.

I do understand that it's a complex pictures and that there might be a number of reasons why, I'd just like to be clear in my own mind as to whether US planes were actually forbidden or not by the Thai government to return to bases in Thailand with munitions on board because that has been my understanding to date.

In Vietnam we came back with munitions all the time. But I never flew bombers. You know there were a lot of different kinds of munitions from 50 cal bullets and rockets and bombs and flares ......... and if you shoot it you got to clean it.

Edited September 11, 2013 by historyprof

[Thanyaburi Mac]

For a pretty clear view of the war in Laos, air as well as ground, take a look at Ken Conboy's book SHADOW WAR.

Mac

[JDGRUEN]

"This topic is about people's personal experiences, not about governmental decisions and the wisdom of the War."

OP. TheBlether

Why did you post that? Did I miss something?

LB Jail is relevant if invited veteran raises it.

A more particular point of relevancy would be 'does it have anything to do with Thailand is a more specific way and veterans who served in Thailand? .... than does it have anything to do with the greater venue of Vietnam and particularly South Vietnam.

The Full OP

It looks like we have tacit approval to run history topics in this forum. Many members of Thaivisa will have first visited Thailand as part of the war effort for the Vietnam War. If you would like to share your experiences here there are many members that are interested.

This topic is about people's personal experiences, not about governmental decisions and the wisdom of the War.

Most people who fought in that War are now kicking on to be 70 years of age, I and many others want to hear their stories about how they came to be in Thailand and how what they remember of Thailand in the 60's and 70's.

Over to you gents.

[SinglePot]

ok JD Gruen. I'll shut the fck up.

[JDGRUEN]

Vietnam was the free world (the US) v the Communists if I recall correctly.

Interested to hear from any veterans if it made any difference whether your fellow GI was black or white when you had the VC on your arse?

Speaking from my experience which was with Special Forces in Thailand - color of skin made little to no difference at least in SF. Everyone had to go through the same schools and pass muster, everyone was qualified or he wouldn't be in the unit. If you were in Special Forces you were a volunteer and part of 10% of 10%. Blacks, Hispanics and American Asians were perhaps smaller in percentage numbers than in regular military forces where the draft filled the ranks. Draftees could be in Special Forces in those days - but he had to volunteer for SF - pass all the tests - finish all the training and he had to extend his enlistment period in almost all cases due to training time and tour of duty requirements.

Bottom line SF had little racial problem for the reasons cited above. When in the field on jungle patrol or defending an outpost we were not concerned with color of skin -- rather just "is he competent and can I count on him",. When off duty - down time was most often shared together in the clubs - we looked out for each other even then - making sure every guy got back to the hotel or back to base.

In Thailand especially around the big Air Bases which were often commingled with large Army camps - due to the large numbers of troops - "black to white" often reflected the ratio of the population back in the States. Back then the custom in larger arenas was more to hanging out with people like yourself in your off duty hours as it was the custom in the States. But just from my observations when 'on duty' in Thailand men just did their jobs. Was there discrimination? Probably and some racism too - after all that was what was going on in the States - the military was a reflection of that. Over all however, in the late 60's into the early 70's military personnel regulations, command structure and discipline was a fairer deal for minorities than in civilian life.

Again - this is my opinion based on my own personal observations and experiences - I don't claim it to be a universal truth - because I was looking at the world through blue eyes.

[JDGRUEN]

ok JD Gruen. I'll shut the fck up.

That was not my intention ... just making note of what the Blether wrote in his OP