Appealing UK Settlement Visa Rejection of Wife's son

[Tony M]

Jay Sata said:

"You are in pedant mode. The child may well be the applicant but he has to be supported /sponsored by the parent which in this case is the mother.

A child does not have the ability or skill to make such an application. However the child is also more likely to tell the truth as is the case here.

Reading all the info here I believe this child still has regular and frequent contact with his father and I also believe the mother has contact with her ex spouse.

If I was making the decision I would refuse the application."

This is an important thread, and I don't want to see it closed because I say something I shouldn't. You said the child wasn't the applicant, now you say he may well be ? Why not just admit that you are wrong ? I suspect that you might well be incapable of admitting that you can be wrong.

There seems to be little doubt that there is some contact between the applicant and his father, so what point are you actually making ? But, that is not the point of this thread. The point is about determining sole responsibility, if it exists here.

Fortunately for all potential visa applicants, you are not making any decisions on visa applications. You have regularly demonstrated your lack of knowledge in this forum.

[meatboy]

Dear Kevin1908,

I followed your first thread when you had the initial problems, and now am reading this one. Something that seemed apparent to me then, and now, and that nobody seems to be mentioning, at least DIRECTLY, some have alluded to it, is that your wife is probably LYING about most things that have to do with her child and his father. The phone interview, most likely, brought those lies to light, and now they are saying the typical thing, to cover the lies, "the kid didn't understand, couldn't hear, was at school" whatever.

Ask yourself, WHY couldn't he understand? Does he not speak Thai fluently? Is he 4 years old? He has a PHONE, is used to speak on it, so WHY couldn't he understand/hear at school?

Most likely, what the kid said was mostly true, and mostly some lies that he got confused ...like how long you and your wife have known each other, been together, whatever it was, that he got the dates wrong!

I'm NOT saying that YOU are dishonest, but that YOU have been lied to and are believing it! Now you are pissed off beyond belief and mad at everyone trying to help you.

I think, you really need to understand the level of lies, that goes on in Thailand (as a normal course of life) ..but you normally need years of experience here, to truly understand and BELIEVE it, especially when it is screwing up your plans to such a large extent, as it is now.

If I was you, I would totally forget about bringing the child over. It isn't your fault! Your wife has maybe been lying to you for several reasons, like wanting more support from you (for her kid, no matter if she needs it or not, no matter if the Father gives her 10 baht a month, or 100,000 baht a month support, she would likely say, there is no support.) And she will try to get her kid (being a good mother, some don't care at all) to the UK for his/her future, as it would be better for both, and better for the real Father ..in most cases, he might be a source of support for him later.

You probably don't want to believe that your new wife could be dishonest. You need to know that honesty is not a typical Thai virtue and that telling stories, changing them around at a moments notice, confusing you all the time, blaming it on the language problems, culture problems, paper problems is very typical here. I remember you talking about your wife insisting on using her "friends" or people she knew for the visa, probably because they knew what she was lying about and promised to help her/cover for her. The "date" being wrong on the letter, is probably not a mistake, made by someone else, but an afterthought by your wife, to do the letter, or something along those lines.

I think you need to start looking at the whole stiuation, as everything you have ever been told, may not be true, and start there, with the source, things might start to make better sense to you and save you a lot of pain.

this is harsh but its a reality,only last week i gave a poster advice on something simular and warning him that skeletons might be lurking in a cupboard.and saying a freind of mine after 7yrs.of marriage he has only just found out she has a 10yr.son.anyway kevin good luck.

[ishouldknow]

Hi Kevin!

I think I read your sad plight previously and now it is here again.

There are some interesting replies above and I think there are somethings you need to consider:

1. Are you the one that seems to be putting in more time, energy, money and effort than the other parties to bring your stepson to the UK? If so, maybe the grey areas mentioned above might have some valid points.

2. Are you sure that bringing the stepson back to the UK is the best thing (at his current age/position/background/culture/familiy/linguistic ability etc)?

You might want to do the right thing and assume that bringing the boy back to the UK is a magic fix and will result in the best interests. If the boy is so opposite to the typical classmates and surroundings it might be like throwing him in the deep-end with sharks and no rescue line!

I do not know the background or the boy, but assuming he is a typical Thai that has grown up in the village school, with the typical Thai family problems, and the local uncivilized boys as his mates, and the "brainwashed schooling" that lacks critical thinking that has created yes men, would he fit in or FAIL? If fail, then in typical Thai style he would reject the opportunity you have given and rebel in flying colors whilst you are all in the UK? There are indeed stereotypes used in this, but it is valid in this case.

The UK schooling system is not some magic doctor that is able to magically change the surroundings to fit the new entrant and provide instant solutions to the extreme mismatch.

If however, 1 & 2 do not apply and you are 100% sure. Then please at least try to follow the TV visa experts that have given you some very valid points and then supplement such with very experienced and qualified UK based immigration lawyers and also make use of some of the vocal immigrant rights organizations based in the UK too!

You might also want to consider other visa options such as education, visit etc.

Edited August 4, 2013 by ishouldknow

[ishouldknow]

I appreciate you may be paying the bills but unless you have adopted the kid ( a nightmare and long drawn out procedure) it's down to the interviews in Thailand in Thai over the phone with the child.

I suspect the kid still speaks to his father and has contact with him on the phone/Internet.

Mothers often want to severe ties with the father to put the relationship behind them.

I disagree and feel children should always maintain contact with both parents.

I'm of the opinion they throw loaded questions at the kid/spouse/partner and tick boxes.

Appeals cost money.

Does the applicant have the right to attend the hearing? That will of course mean that he will have to travel to the UK

Your wife/partner is the applicant not the child.

I suppose it takes an organisation like UKBA to give more rights to the father who pays nothing, cares for nothing but makes the occasional phone call or chats on Skype once in a while which of course he can still do even if his son is in the UK. Also the father has not objected to him going. What right do UKBA have to decide on behalf of the father. Now had he raise objections I can understand but he hasn't.

It is right that some mothers do as you suggest but it is equally true some fathers don't care. It will be interesting to see how many times the dad has taken the trip from Bangkok to Surat Thani to see his son.

You have to understand that you are opening up a whole can of potential worms - in the UKBA's opinion.

Your initial application was based on X but after the call the UKBA got the impression of Y (rightly or wrongly). Now, how do you intend to alter their opinion (or the person that listens to your appeal)?

Try and take a step back and assume worst case legal scenario - the immigration officer had accepted the application and the boy flew over. Now, the father who is some person who can afford to challenge the UK claims you have "abducted/taken the son for a wider purpose than he thought" and deprived him of his family rights and the great Thai education etc.... Obviously you and I know that is far fetched - however, they have to play safe and assume such legal issues do not arise in the future! Maybe my example is not the best, but it does give a flavour of what I mean.

I think that others and maybe even you know that there are different family legal systems in both the UK and Thailand and that the mismatch of custody/responsibilty etc. does open such murky areas especially when the son has given cause to open such.

Thailand makes it hard for a father to be able to claim custody/responsibilty for a child - however, once it has been granted it is very hard to erase 100% (the 100% is the key here maybe)!

[ishouldknow]

My final word to you on this matter.

Do not take the word of a translator or someone who works at the Thai embassy in London on UK immigration matters; especially in what appears to be a complex appeal!

Seek competent, professional advice from a grade 3 OISC advisor or a UK based solicitor who specialises in immigration appeals.

Up to you whether or not you do so.

I am not taking the word of the translator. I am dealing with an Immigration solicitor but for my own peace of mind I was trying to determine ahead of my wife going on holiday back to Thailand whether there are any people with knowledge of Thai law can advise if there are any documents other than the Kor Ror 6 that my wife needs to get while she is there?

Could we keep it on topic.

You will be surprised what others can add http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/509439-is-porkor14-enough-to-show-custody/ look at post 2. It sums up this matter. And I have a feeling that your situation is somewhere in a grey area between paragraph 1 and 2 and compounded by the son giving a different version! You have to realize that after the son is of the age of getting an id card, your grey area is very grey as now it also involves the wishes of a "mature" Thai citizen - and I think his call indicated his wishes (even if he was led etc).

You have the transcript and you know what you are up against. I would advise getting a sworn statement of your son giving a response to the transcript that you have. plus all the Thai legal documents that you will need.

But then I remember that you are doing all such by remote control - you are in the UK and are asking the Thai side to do all and they are doing either a botched job or are intentionally messing it up. Time to readjust priorities?? If you are sure this matter is the real deal, time to come over here, get all done that satisfies the Thai legal side and then go back to the UK to deal with a UK appeal - or maybe at that point it might be quicker and cheaper to just reapply with the NEW evidence and all bases covered etc?

Edited August 4, 2013 by ishouldknow

[David48]

Good Luck Kevin ... I always enjoy reading your posts ...

.

[Kevin1908]

You are in pedant mode. The child may well be the applicant but he has to be supported /sponsored by the parent which in this case is the mother.

A child does not have the ability or skill to make such an application. However the child is also more likely to tell the truth as is the case here.

Reading all the info here I believe this child still has regular and frequent contact with his father and I also believe the mother has contact with her ex spouse.

If I was making the decision I would refuse the application.

As usual complete rubbish. The child is more likely to tell the truth, you don't know kids very well then. I think kids are very adept at saying what they think people want to hear. That is not the same as telling the truth.

The kid told UKBA that since the divorce his mother was living with me.

Now that is complete rubbish but all I can determine that to an ambiguous question that was the answer he gave. I can't determine what was asked or the answers given. I only have the translation of the transcipts. The boy and the fathers interviews don't corroborate each other.

Keep up the speculation.

[Kevin1908]

Hi Kevin!

I think I read your sad plight previously and now it is here again.

There are some interesting replies above and I think there are somethings you need to consider:

1. Are you the one that seems to be putting in more time, energy, money and effort than the other parties to bring your stepson to the UK? If so, maybe the grey areas mentioned above might have some valid points.

2. Are you sure that bringing the stepson back to the UK is the best thing (at his current age/position/background/culture/familiy/linguistic ability etc)?

You might want to do the right thing and assume that bringing the boy back to the UK is a magic fix and will result in the best interests. If the boy is so opposite to the typical classmates and surroundings it might be like throwing him in the deep-end with sharks and no rescue line!

I do not know the background or the boy, but assuming he is a typical Thai that has grown up in the village school, with the typical Thai family problems, and the local uncivilized boys as his mates, and the "brainwashed schooling" that lacks critical thinking that has created yes men, would he fit in or FAIL? If fail, then in typical Thai style he would reject the opportunity you have given and rebel in flying colors whilst you are all in the UK? There are indeed stereotypes used in this, but it is valid in this case.

The UK schooling system is not some magic doctor that is able to magically change the surroundings to fit the new entrant and provide instant solutions to the extreme mismatch.

If however, 1 & 2 do not apply and you are 100% sure. Then please at least try to follow the TV visa experts that have given you some very valid points and then supplement such with very experienced and qualified UK based immigration lawyers and also make use of some of the vocal immigrant rights organizations based in the UK too!

You might also want to consider other visa options such as education, visit etc.

Thew boy has only ever lived in Bangkok and been educated privately funded by the mother.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

You are in pedant mode. The child may well be the applicant but he has to be supported /sponsored by the parent which in this case is the mother.

A child does not have the ability or skill to make such an application. However the child is also more likely to tell the truth as is the case here.

Reading all the info here I believe this child still has regular and frequent contact with his father and I also believe the mother has contact with her ex spouse.

If I was making the decision I would refuse the application.

As usual complete rubbish. The child is more likely to tell the truth, you don't know kids very well then. I think kids are very adept at saying what they think people want to hear. That is not the same as telling the truth.

The kid told UKBA that since the divorce his mother was living with me.

Now that is complete rubbish but all I can determine that to an ambiguous question that was the answer he gave. I can't determine what was asked or the answers given. I only have the translation of the transcipts. The boy and the fathers interviews don't corroborate each other.

Keep up the speculation.

The kid clearly doesn't want to live with you in the UK, so why are you so desperate to take on another man's child?

He will resent you and hate you and make your life hell.

[David48]

The boy has only ever lived in Bangkok and been educated privately funded by the mother.

Kevin ... given that the mother of the boy has fairly limited resources in line with most working Thais ... how did she pay for his (presumably) expensive Private education?

.

[Kevin1908]

You are dealing with ECO's who feel it is appropriate to refuse a visit visa for someone who has conformed to the terms of two previous visit visas but stayed longer than she had stated on the application form. (Another thread on here).

If a visa is to be granted you have to see things as an ECO sees things. It is a settlement visa so you cannot give any 'wriggle' room as there is considerable pressure to reduce the numbers issued.

If the father is involved at all then an ECO can use this as a means of refusing a visa. Regular contact (in any way) with the other parent muddies the water on sole responsibility which the ECO is likely to jump on!

If the child is Thai the best interests of the child will be considered the Thai authorities responsibility not the UK's.

A transcript should be an exact record of what was said on the phone.

If his father is willing to support him if you withdraw yours then it will be even more difficult to show sole responsibility so not a line I would recommend taking with the Home Office.

Take the advice of the expert advisor and don't let frustration make a difficult situation worse.

The father is not prepared to take respnsibility. The child's best interests surely rest with the person that is prepared to take responsiblity, that is his mother and me, not the Thai or the UK authorities.

I have had enough dealings with Government Departments and National organisations to know that transcipts don't always accurately reflect what is said.

The father is only invlolved to the extent that he logs on to Facebook.

[cdnvic]

Please confine discussion to visa issues, and leave the relationship advice out of it.

[Seekingasylum]

The fact the father has maintained social contact at a distance with his son and has signed a disclaimer allowing him to leave Thailand does not, de jure, mean the mother has not had sole responsibility for the child's upbringing as defined by the rules. If the ECO has in fact used such contact to undermine the mother's claim to have provided all material support, guidance, accommodation etc, and was the only basis for the refusal then the appeal will no doubt succeed.

[Tony M]

The fact the father has maintained social contact at a distance with his son and has signed a disclaimer allowing him to leave Thailand does not, de jure, mean the mother has not had sole responsibility for the child's upbringing as defined by the rules. If the ECO has in fact used such contact to undermine the mother's claim to have provided all material support, guidance, accommodation etc, and was the only basis for the refusal then the appeal will no doubt succeed.

It would be good to know what the refusal notice says, and the content of the telephone transcripts. I suspect that there may be more there than just the apparent continued contact, to whatever degree, with the father.

[Stjohnm]

The crucial reason that UKBA turned doen the application seems to stem from the telephone interview with the boy. I want to get the wife to get him to make a statement correcting the interview. This was done while he was in class at school and he had problems hearing and understanding. I think he felt pressured to go ahead for fear that if he said the timing was inconvenient that his application would automatically have been rejected so went ahead. Clearly what he said was at odds with what the mother and father said but UKBA have ignored the parents statements.

Are there any other documents that I will need for this appeal?

I know the UKBA & FCO are working to stricter guidelines, settlement visas are being denied if linguistic standards are not met.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

[Kevin1908]

The crucial reason that UKBA turned doen the application seems to stem from the telephone interview with the boy. I want to get the wife to get him to make a statement correcting the interview. This was done while he was in class at school and he had problems hearing and understanding. I think he felt pressured to go ahead for fear that if he said the timing was inconvenient that his application would automatically have been rejected so went ahead. Clearly what he said was at odds with what the mother and father said but UKBA have ignored the parents statements.

Are there any other documents that I will need for this appeal?

I know the UKBA & FCO are working to stricter guidelines, settlement visas are being denied if linguistic standards are not met.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

Would they have to quote that as a reason for denying the visa? I looked at some of the wife's translated documents that were done in Thailand and I have never seen such poor English. God knows who the agent got to do the translation, a tuk tuk driver I think.

[Jay Sata]

I want to get the wife to get him to make a statement correcting the interview. This was done while he was in class at school and he had problems hearing and understanding. I think he felt pressured to go ahead for fear that if he said the timing was inconvenient that his application would automatically have been rejected so went ahead. Clearly what he said was at odds with what the mother and father said but UKBA have ignored the parents statements.

I can see you facing a problem achieving that goal.

You want the UKBA to believe a statement that your wife want's to make instead of the interview conducted on the telephone with the child.

I'm sure these interviews are regular and routine and designed to get a true picture and not a pre rehearsed statement.

[David48]

Kevin, what do you hope to achieve from the OP?

Are you trying to educate the readers so the same problems that befell you don't hinder similar applications?

Or do you come seeking advice to assist with your SIL's application?

Or just vent? ... (nothing wrong with that)

Just so we / I know how to tailor our replies.

[Kevin1908]

Kevin, what do you hope to achieve from the OP?

Are you trying to educate the readers so the same problems that befell you don't hinder similar applications?

Or do you come seeking advice to assist with your SIL's application?

Or just vent? ... (nothing wrong with that)

Just so we / I know how to tailor our replies.

In short, what documents should my wife be putting together when she goes back to Thailand in 2 weeks time. I try to put it simpler next time. If you can contribute, fine.

[Jay Sata]

Well that's how they do it so don't blame me.

The issue is the ECO was not satisfied with what the youngster said on the phone.

It was him who had to field or answer the questions which obviously did not go well. It would be wrong to have someone there

prompting replies.

It was all done in Thai so there can be no misunderstanding.

I'm sure they get lot's of situations like this.

[SlyAnimal]

One post has been removed.

Please keep it civil guys, I know that issues involving family can be pretty close to the heart, and visas are frustrating at the best of times.

However please argue the point, not the abuse the poster.

If you aren't sure of the Thaivisa forum rules, please consult this page.

[Kevin1908]

Well that's how they do it so don't blame me.

The issue is the ECO was not satisfied with what the youngster said on the phone.

It was him who had to field or answer the questions which obviously did not go well. It would be wrong to have someone there

prompting replies.

It was all done in Thai so there can be no misunderstanding.

I'm sure they get lot's of situations like this.

Since you have not seen the rejection note I don't see how you can make such a statement.

[7by7]

Kevin, what do you hope to achieve from the OP?

Are you trying to educate the readers so the same problems that befell you don't hinder similar applications?

Or do you come seeking advice to assist with your SIL's application?

Or just vent? ... (nothing wrong with that)

Just so we / I know how to tailor our replies.

In short, what documents should my wife be putting together when she goes back to Thailand in 2 weeks time. I try to put it simpler next time. If you can contribute, fine.

Your attitude does not encourage people to help you.

Replies based on the limited information you have provided are dismissed as irrelevant.

Acknowledged visa experts here, notably TonyM, have tried to help you; but need more information to enable them to do so. Yet despite many requests for that information, in the form of what the refusal notice actually says, in this and your previous topics, you wont provide it.

You say this is because you can't copy and upload it. Fair enough; but if I were in your position I'd type it in by hand!

You say that you have engaged the services of a lawyer to handle the appeal. You should be asking him/her these questions.

Indeed, one has to wonder why he/she has not already given you this information!

It is not because they do not know Thai law. Thai law has nothing to do with it; the appeal will be determined by the UK's immigration rules and whether or not the refusal was correct under those rules.

I know you don't like me nor what I have to say; but everything I have said to you in this and your other topics on this subject are things which your lawyer should have already said to you.

[Jay Sata]

Well that's how they do it so don't blame me.

The issue is the ECO was not satisfied with what the youngster said on the phone.

It was him who had to field or answer the questions which obviously did not go well. It would be wrong to have someone there

prompting replies.

It was all done in Thai so there can be no misunderstanding.

I'm sure they get lot's of situations like this.

Since you have not seen the rejection note I don't see how you can make such a statement.

Because of what you said at the start of this thread.

The crucial reason that UKBA turned doen the application seems to stem from the telephone interview with the boy. I want to get the wife to get him to make a statement correcting the interview. This was done while he was in class at school and he had problems hearing and understanding.

Interviews whether they are face to face or on the phone are just that. They are not the same as "signed statements" which frankly could be written by anybody.

[Kevin1908]

"Because of what you said at the start of this thread."

I haven't said what the rejection note said

"Interviews whether they are face to face or on the phone are just that. They are not the same as "signed statements" which frankly could be written by anybody"

I will treat that statement with the contempt that it deserves. If it is signed then it can't be produced by anybody, can it.

[7by7]

"Because of what you said at the start of this thread."

I haven't said what the rejection note said

Exactly!!

Until you do, replies can only be based upon the very limited information which you have provided.

If you don't care for those replies; post exactly what the refusal notice says; even if you do have to type it in by hand.

[Kevin1908]

"Because of what you said at the start of this thread."

I haven't said what the rejection note said

Exactly!!

Until you do, replies can only be based upon the very limited information which you have provided.

If you don't care for those replies; post exactly what the refusal notice says; even if you do have to type it in by hand.

I thought that you made your final comment on this subject back on the first page.

I will repeat the question, what documents will it be useful for my wife to get when she is back in Thailand. Most of the replies have not added anything to the question, just simply added abuse. The rejection note is irrelevant to the comments raised but since you ask the ECO cosidered that the father had a significant role in the boy's life. that is not the case and the crux of the appeal.

[Jay Sata]

The rejection note is irrelevant to the comments raised but since you ask the ECO cosidered that the father had a significant role in the boy's life. that is not the case and the crux of the appeal.

But you contradict yourself at the start by saying

The crucial reason that UKBA turned doen the application seems to stem from the telephone interview with the boy. I want to get the wife to get him to make a statement correcting the interview. This was done while he was in class at school and he had problems hearing and understanding.

[simple1]

"Because of what you said at the start of this thread."

I haven't said what the rejection note said

"Interviews whether they are face to face or on the phone are just that. They are not the same as "signed statements" which frankly could be written by anybody"

I will treat that statement with the contempt that it deserves. If it is signed then it can't be produced by anybody, can it.

Kevin, a statement can be word smithed by anyone & then signed by the applicant. Why not put end to this bickering and post the wording for the refusal notice and see if you can get some constructive input. You can then decide if you wish to utilise the input in your dialogue with your lawyer/wife.

[7by7]

The rejection note is irrelevant to the comments raised but since you ask the ECO cosidered that the father had a significant role in the boy's life. that is not the case and the crux of the appeal.

The refusal notice most certainly is not irrelevant!

Why did the ECO consider that? The refusal notice should say.

I cannot understand why you wont tell us what it says, exactly, yet abuse those who do try to advise you based upon the very limited information which you are prepared to provide.

It is the reasons the ECO believed that which you have to overcome. If we don't know what those reason are, we cannot advise you.

Your lawyer presumably has seen the refusal notice; what is their advice?