Anatta the Adj.

[Several]

First, that we are not 'we', 'it' is Anicca, 'it' is Anatta.

[Several]

Second, prevailing faith that Anatta equals annihiliation is not established giving some solace to those who have lost loved ones.

[Several]

Third, practice is advised by right view, not any coveninent view, investigation of states not unquestioning obedience to dogma.

[Several]

More to follow...

[Several]

Fourth, I have as you well know already answered about effect on practice numerous times. Read the previous posts again.

[rockyysdt]

Fourth, I have as you well know already answered about effect on practice numerous times. Read the previous posts again.

Is it possible to summarize as the posting ended up almost being war & peace with a lot of side tracking included?

This way I an get to the heart of of what you now live and breath.

PS: Thank you for points 1 - 3.

Edited December 7, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

Because Moha (delusion/ignorance) is not a Sambojjhanga (Enlightenment factor) I entertain the strong possibility that most people are mistaken about Anatta.

[rockyysdt]

Because Moha (delusion/ignorance) is not a Sambojjhanga (Enlightenment factor) I entertain the strong possibility that most people are mistaken about Anatta.

Thanks Sev.

For a capping to the thread I thought it would be worthwhile to summarize my third element:

Action/practice summary to take advantage.

In other words, which part of right view would you investigate?

Put this down to my level of understanding.

Many of us are captive by language and the way each of us comprehends it.

Edited December 7, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

Umm.

[rockyysdt]

Umm.

To summarise:

• We are not "we", it is Anicca (the absence of permanence and continuity), it is Anatta (This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self).
• Anatta does not confirm/imply annihilation.
• Practice involves investigation of right view, & investigation of states.

Should I deduce that the fact that there is nothing permanent or constant doesn't mean there is nothing?

Isn't right view open to interpretation?

How can I be sure a particular right view is the correct one, given the many conflicting writings, attributed to the Buddha, requiring investigation?

[Several]

Dunno. I have the flu and cannot concentrate. Normal service will be resumed shortly.

[Several]

Umm.

 

To summarise:

 

• We are not "we",  it is Anicca (the absence of permanence and continuity),    it is Anatta (This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self).
•  
• Anatta does not confirm/imply annihilation.
•  
• Practice involves investigation of right view, & investigation of states.

 

 

 

Should I deduce that the fact that there is nothing permanent or constant doesn't mean there is nothing?

 

Isn't right view open to interpretation?

 

How can I be sure a particular right view is the correct one, given the many conflicting writings, attributed to the Buddha, requiring investigation?

If there is no 'I' there cannot be 'us'.

Nothing created or manifest is permanent. Citta is not created, not part of dependent origination, never cited as Anatta or Anicca.

Sammadithi, translated as right view, can also be enlightened view. Not sure what you mean by 'what part of right view'. It is Sammaditthi or it is not. It is not an interpretation, not a rationale.

It would be better to say Sammaditthi is used in the investigation of states, from the theoretical to the experential.

You'll know which view is Samma when it occurs. It is knowledge beyond words. See the progression; right speech/action coming from right thought coming from right view. Thinking is a corruption of knowing, true knowledge is wordless.

Investigating what is accurate from approximate in Buddhas writing will enable right view. Words become thoughts become understanding. What language were you born thinking in? None. You learned it. Same as everyone. It is an artificial construct that we have been seduced into believing gives us understanding. And we believe it then wonder why we suffer. Foolish. Short-sighted. Like believing a picture of food will give sustenance. However we are habitually trapped in inner verbalisation and the delusion of pretty explainations. Part of the escape from that unnatural state is to apply rationality to itself until it collapses under its own inadequacy and becomes the servant it was made to be.

[rockyysdt]

Kinda wishing I'd not mentioned copyright. Too late now. My original point was about the translation of Anatta in light of what a certain scholar said. Why ask such a thing Christartist poses? To hear learned opinion on it. To wear it out. To drive understanding beyond the merely scholastic. Buddha ridiculed a very learned monk for being an 'empty pot', having only memorised the lines. No offence, but the phd's I have met tend to not be very insightful.

The good old eight fold has right view and right thought, a quarter of it devoted to conceptual thinking. We are also warned against delusion (with lust and anger) which is also conceptual. So I surmise that there is a good reason for coming to the best possible understanding of what Buddha, not his commentators, was saying. Rocky asked what difference does it make? Most likely the difference between success and failure.

Bluntly, those denying that there is any more to Buddhism that gaining the meager realisation that there is a difference between nama and rupa are nihilists. Due to the way Anatta is viewed, Buddhism is becoming very backward looking. Not this, not that. Not enough forward looking, how do I attain this undescribable deathless state?

So words do fail, but I think I need them to fail, be driven into the ground and pounded into dust so my psyche has no other recourse or trick or delusion to turn to and must perforce apprehend the truth directly.

There is method in my madness. Apologies if I ramble, I have flu and am exhausted.

Gotta say, I respect a man who still uses a fountain pen and mentions archery in the same post. In fact, I love you all, wonderful people.

Hi Sev.

Hope you are well.

If you wanted to be driven into the dust until your psyche experiences a khon effect you've come to the right place.

Many of us possess a myriad of attachments which our delusion blind us to.

I'm like a dog with a bone. Try and get me to drop it.

We're all in the wilderness seeking a way.

I press you to try to get my own answers.

I hope you understand.

I like your resolve.

Is it your attachment to logic

[Several]

Thinking is indeed overrated. Now trying to feel the unspoken answer. With better reason than curiosity. In fact, without reason at all.

[rockyysdt]

@ rockyysdt:

"Then it appears the most powerful "aggregate" we forum members seem to attach to is:

Mental formations (Saṅkhāra).

all types of mental habits, thoughts, ideas, opinions, prejudices, compulsions, and decisions triggered by an object.

That we should observe our attachment to the need to rationalize and to the need to seek answers through logic."

First, remarks on sankhara. Sankhara are threefold: behaviour, speech and thought. The Buddha construes them as "tendencies", which translates to habitual behaviour, which in extreme cases translates to addictions. All of these arise due to craving. The mental formations should, I think, be construed as motivational factors (usually translated in the Nikayas as "volitional formations), not just any mental contents, because mental contents in general is covered by the mental objects of consciousness. The carrying out of volitional formations in the realms of behaviour and speech reinforce those in thought, and those in thought reinforce those in behaviour and speech. Volitional formations also come in degrees of area of effect. At one end of the scale, we might have a craving to arrange all the peas on our plate in a prefect triangle. The area of effect of this volitional formation is small: it pertains only to the arrangement of cooked peas that have been presented for consumption. it would be classed by western medical practitioners as a compulsive-obsessive disorder (which, when you think about it, is not very important or informative; it merely says that someone wants to do something and can't seem to stop doing it.) These volitional formations with a small area of effect are indications that deeper-rooted volitional formations are at work that have a wider range of effect and that cause volitional formations with a narrower area of effect.

To see how this works, consider the case of a desire for security. This has a vast area of effect and pervades one's entire life, if one has it. What will a person do who wants to be secure? They'll want shelter, clothing and food. yet they can't rely on the community to provide these things because such reliance is not secure; the community might withhold access. So they will need access to shelter, clothing and food that is independent of the community, so they will need some money. So they will need a job. Yet not just any job will do. It has to be a stable, secure job because the inflow of money has to be secure. (Note that we have now arrived at a volitional formation that has a medium area of effect, because the search for a secure job will affect quite a lot of one's life; not as much as the overarching desire for security, yet more than counting one's coins in the attic every night.)

Pretty soon, the seeker after security will start thinking that a stable, secure job is not enough to guarantee security. Things probably won't go wrong, but still, what if they did? There thus arises a need to stockpile cash in case of emergencies, which means that the security seeker will need a job that pays more money. Better-paid jobs typically induce greater stress and require longer hours (more suffering). And just how much stockpiled cash is enough, anyway? Surely it is better to to get as much as possible, just to make sure, from the point of view of the security seeker. The security seeker will soon find himself working all hours of the day, unable to switch off from the job, and neglecting family and friends. In response to the ever-increasing stress, the security seeker is likely to engage in activities that he mistakenly believes will alleviate stress, such as heavy drinking, smoking and gambling.

Meanwhile, what sort of relationships is the security seeker going to have with other human beings? he needs to feel secure in relationships, and that means he needs to make sure that the other person will behave as he expects them to behave, that they won't neglect him and that they won't leave. Such an attitude is likely to lead to fits of jealousy, rage, anxiety and depression. In addition, the security seeker will resort to subtle mechanisms of psychological control (for example, promising "rewards" in return for "good" behaviour, or withholding affection unless "good" behaviour manifests), or, in extreme cases, physical control (for example, beatings or not allowing a partner or offspring to go outside the house.)

The craving for security, this very deep volitional formation, comes in many varying degrees of intensity. Consequently, it will affect different people differently. People's genetic make-up, their karma from previous lives, and their environmental background will also have a bearing. However, it will now be clear that volitional formations can have varying ranges of effect and that the most deeply rooted of them for example, the desire for security, can affect the whole of one's life and will create a massive, complex interacting web or network of suffering that can seem impossible to escape from.

I have used just one example of a deeply rooted volitional formation. There are others. each of us needs to identify our volitional formations, which lead to craving and attachment, and root them out.

Second, how to proceed? Focusing on volitional formations is one place to start. Yet there are other starting points and beginning with volitional formations might be difficult. As I mentioned above, a massive web or network of suffering is created, and this web involves volitional formations, consciousness of objects (both "external" and mental), feelings, our conceptual scheme, our cravings and our attachments; in short, the entirety of the things that are stated in the formula for dependent origination. I find that a good place to start is the precepts (whether this be 5, 8, 10 or 227). When we try to follow even the five lay precepts, we are already following the eightfold path. To follow the precepts, we will need (at first embryonic, later more and more sophisticated and stronger) right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration. When we are practising, we will find things that are difficult for us. whatever it is, it will be difficult for us because we have an underlying craving. We should focus attention on the thing that is most difficult for us and proceed step by step to change our lives so that we can eradicate the underlying craving. Trying to follow the precepts (5,8, 10 or 227) is a good way to identify cravings. we can then work to eliminate the cravings.

There are many ways to proceed, many starting points, but progress is not linear. Remember that there is a whole complex mass, network, web of suffering, which is created by a whole complex mass, network, web of mutually connecting elements in the chain of the formula for dependent origination. Each link in the chain has thousands of facets. We need to address them all, step by step, over a period of time. Progress will be gradual, yet inexorable for one who persists and follows the Buddha's methods.

Mindfulness meditation can help us to identify and delve deeply into the areas that each of us finds problematic. Meditation need not be simply sitting. Meditation takes many forms; the important thing is the focus of attention. I find that writing a journal is a good meditative practice for me. I have been writing a journal every day for the last five years. every morning, I write until I have nothing more to write. Writing is good because it is a right-brain activity, the creative side of the brain. Right-brain activity is characterised by alpha brain waves, which means that you are in a calmer state. I write with a fountain pen, because the very act of making this pen make the right marks on paper is a meditative practice. After a while, dhamma-related ideas begin to flow and I can identify and analyse areas that are problematic for me. As progress along the path continues, meditation can arise in many other areas of life, even when walking in a busy shopping centre or riding the bus. everyday life becomes the arena of meditation as we become fully mindful. As regards specific areas, Chinese painting, calligraphy, archery, golf, snooker, tai chi, martial arts and other active pursuits are well-known for their benefits with respect to meditation.

"Contemplating the body as a body...... feelings as feelings.........mind as mind..........mind-objects as mind-objects" Here, we are invited to introspect and see the arising and passing away of phenomena, to recognise their impermanence. Yet this is not all. We are invited to observe the complex network of causes and conditions as well, so that we can see the mechanism by which suffering arises, so that we can then dismantle it.

Each person will start and progress in a different way. You need to find your own way.

"That we should observe our attachment to the need to rationalize and to the need to seek answers through logic."

Much of what the Buddha says is presented in terms of conditions. Although it is not strictly correct, a good way for us to think of this is in terms of cause and effect. Rather than analyse *logically*, we should analyse our behaviour in terms of causes and effects. we identify an effect that we don't want, and we identify and eliminate its cause. In this context, remember that there is a vast network of causes and conditions. we will have succeeded only when we have identified and eliminated *all* of the causes of suffering. at the beginning and on later stages of the path, we might eliminate a cause, only to find that another destructive behaviour takes its place (for example, we give up drinking, only to find that we start surfing the internet 10 hours a day.) This is because we have not identified and eliminated a deep-rooted volitional formation that has a wide area of effect. we remove a cause further up the chain, but the deep, underlying cause is still operative. Sometimes logical analysis is good, sometimes not. We need to avoid the "thicket of views".

Granted much of our behaviour, tendencies & beliefs is conditioned and impermanent.

A high percentage of our thoughts, speech & behavior might involve negative elements and be destructive or cause suffering.

Conditioned and impermanent as it is, isn't it our program?

If we are wiping our program clean what is left?

Don't we need a positively rooted program to replace a negative one, rather than a state empty of any program (conditioning)?

or

Having eliminated all traces of conditioning/impermanence what are we left with?

Does this state preclude us from engaging in normal human life?

Edited January 29, 2014 by rockyysdt

[Several]

This only matters if we are human.

But we are not. We are mind.

[rockyysdt]

This only matters if we are human.

But we are not. We are mind.

Does that mean the end game is disengagement from humans?

[Several]

There are no humans. Only aggregates

[Several]

Well, partly due to the incompatibilty of my view with mainstream Buddhism and mostly due to other reasons, I've disrobed. I didn't feel I could honestly continue so it was better to leave. I will continue practice and study, I do believe Plotinus Veritas is correct in his interpretation, that Anatta is an adjective and Citta is not Anatta.

So good luck, with Metta, Several.

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[rockyysdt]

Hi Sev.

Having disrobed I hope you stick around.

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[lungmi]

I have disrobed formally 24 years ago. Why? I discovered that I found a new "boss": Shivagokomarpaj, the doctor of the Buddha.

To do my duty I had to disrobe.

Inside, I never disrobed.

[Several]

I know what you mean Brother.

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