Corruption - Why do we make such assumptions, and where is our evidence?

[ABCer]

Asking for evidence in corruption is naive. It is one of the common knowledge things. Evidence is a preamble of law suits. It may be dangerous to have.

Basically I am not against it. Its existence allows to 'live and let live'.

But seriously speaking, less corruption means that Gov't structures have to pay 'for honesty' to the officials, which isn't exactly the case here at this moment.

'Cracking down' doesn't help without first creating conditions for honesty, efficiency and competence. History is against the change in this side of life here.

Try to live decently on wages paid to low and medium level official. Thus it is understood by both sides that you are supposed to 'supplement' your income.

When an official is paid 20,000 Bt/mth and is driving a 3 - 6 M Bt car - there is your evidence! But can you build a law suit on this evidence?

It is a system that was, is and will be. This is only one side of Thai life and I have no problem with it. Just use it like everybody else to your advantage.

Don't rock the boat you are in. Swim with the current and you will live.

Edited August 10, 2013 by ABCer

[David48]

I've been waiting for a subject like this to ask a News Question.

Remember a Government (Transport ??) Minister, maybe a year or 2 ago whose house was robbed.

Initially said something like 2 million went missing, but the thieves said ... heck not ... they couldn't carry all his money out?

Who was that guy?

What happened to him?

I just asked the Thain gf and she say she doesn't know ... the story just went quiet?

thanks ...

[Gsxrnz]

I've been waiting for a subject like this to ask a News Question.

Remember a Government (Transport ??) Minister, maybe a year or 2 ago whose house was robbed.

Initially said something like 2 million went missing, but the thieves said ... heck not ... they couldn't carry all his money out?

Who was that guy?

What happened to him?

I just asked the Thain gf and she say she doesn't know ... the story just went quiet?

thanks ...

And some of the bundles of 1,000B notes that were recovered had serial numbers that the DSI had traced to a French company that won a contract to build a mortorway or bridge or something. There was allegedly 100 million baht stacked to the ceiling in his house and the thieves could only get away with 10 million or so - and the muppets got caught.

The general theory in the press was that the story would die in a few month - I certainly haven't heard any outcome.

[h90]

Even my wife says its corrupt.

Even my wife is corrupt...............

I would be corrupt as well, but no one want to bribe me

[frankwhite]

In the good ol USA it happens every day but we call it kickbacks not corruption.

[h90]

I've been waiting for a subject like this to ask a News Question.

Remember a Government (Transport ??) Minister, maybe a year or 2 ago whose house was robbed.

Initially said something like 2 million went missing, but the thieves said ... heck not ... they couldn't carry all his money out?

Who was that guy?

What happened to him?

I just asked the Thain gf and she say she doesn't know ... the story just went quiet?

thanks ...

And some of the bundles of 1,000B notes that were recovered had serial numbers that the DSI had traced to a French company that won a contract to build a mortorway or bridge or something. There was allegedly 100 million baht stacked to the ceiling in his house and the thieves could only get away with 10 million or so - and the muppets got caught.

The general theory in the press was that the story would die in a few month - I certainly haven't heard any outcome.

Most probably he had to share the money with someone.....

[h90]

In the good ol USA it happens every day but we call it kickbacks not corruption.

here it is often called commission.

in small cases entertainment money. You sell a product and actually you want to invite the decision makers to a nice dinner, or maybe the complete department.

That can't be wrong to invite someone to a dinner.

But very unfortunately you really really don't have the time but ask the decision maker if to excuse you from it and you just give him the 5000 or 10000 Baht cash for going to dinner. Of course there is no dinner and of course it is corruption. Just pretending there is none and everyone is honest.

Like giving the policemen 500 Baht so he can pay it in on the police station for you

And surely 1000 other "tricks" I don't know.

[Gsxrnz]

In the good ol USA it happens every day but we call it kickbacks not corruption.

Same same.

I read that annually about 900 US government officials are found guilty of bribery and/or corruption. That's the ones that are caught so I assume it's the tip of the iceberg.

Probably the same in most western countries - the difference being that when caught in the west we usually prosecute. Thailand has a habit of promoting them instead.

Edit: Here's the data - actually more like 1,200 per annum. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004900.html

Edited August 10, 2013 by Gsxrnz

[HeijoshinCool]

I've been waiting for a subject like this to ask a News Question.

Remember a Government (Transport ??) Minister, maybe a year or 2 ago whose house was robbed.

Initially said something like 2 million went missing, but the thieves said ... heck not ... they couldn't carry all his money out?

Who was that guy?

What happened to him?

I just asked the Thain gf and she say she doesn't know ... the story just went quiet?

thanks ...

And some of the bundles of 1,000B notes that were recovered had serial numbers that the DSI had traced to a French company that won a contract to build a mortorway or bridge or something. There was allegedly 100 million baht stacked to the ceiling in his house and the thieves could only get away with 10 million or so - and the muppets got caught.

The general theory in the press was that the story would die in a few month - I certainly haven't heard any outcome.

He was set free, couldn't prosecute. The police lost the evidence ....

[StreetCowboy]

In the good ol USA it happens every day but we call it kickbacks not corruption.

Same same.

I read that annually about 900 US government officials are found guilty of bribery and/or corruption. That's the ones that are caught so I assume it's the tip of the iceberg.

Probably the same in most western countries - the difference being that when caught in the west we usually prosecute. Thailand has a habit of promoting them instead.

Edit: Here's the data - actually more like 1,200 per annum. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004900.html

so what's that, as a percentage?

I would say it was a mark of the honesty of government that this information is freely available. I am sure that if you were to try to get authoritative figures for Thailand, you would be very sceptical of their accuracy

SC

[yourauntbob]

its evident everytime you a see a politician's house and car

its evident when you see the tuition payments they can make so their kids attend international schools

its evident when your friend is refused a government contract because he takes the high road and refuses to overbill and under collect

its evident when you talk any Thai people, from what i have been told they feel the same way and express so on thai language forums

Edited August 10, 2013 by yourauntbob

[slapout]

Maybe as guests in this country we should be less inclined to point out what we call corruption so often.

I resolve to try to hold the charge of corruption to 40% of the individuals, I will use the term 'aiding and abetting a felony', 30% and oncorporate the term 'derilection of sworn duty' for 30%

Others might have a better way/terms, if so, I am open to modify my terms, but any % change will require presentation of rock sold evidence or a written declaration of 'Sainthood' with the papal seal affixed.

[David48]

I've been waiting for a subject like this to ask a News Question.

Remember a Government (Transport ??) Minister, maybe a year or 2 ago whose house was robbed.

Initially said something like 2 million went missing, but the thieves said ... heck not ... they couldn't carry all his money out?

Who was that guy?

What happened to him?

I just asked the Thain gf and she say she doesn't know ... the story just went quiet?

thanks ...

And some of the bundles of 1,000B notes that were recovered had serial numbers that the DSI had traced to a French company that won a contract to build a mortorway or bridge or something. There was allegedly 100 million baht stacked to the ceiling in his house and the thieves could only get away with 10 million or so - and the muppets got caught.

The general theory in the press was that the story would die in a few month - I certainly haven't heard any outcome.

He was set free, couldn't prosecute. The police lost the evidence ....

surely not a serious and factual reply?

Any others?

[culicine]

When we read, see or hear everyday, whether it be the newspapers, television or the internet forums of all the bad points of the Thai business principles, it is a natural course that the majority of peoples minds will be, ironically, corrupted to expect the worst from every transaction that is done in this country.

Bad news is good news!

Obviously it does happen, a really good post by Thai at Heart (#3) outlines what can happen in the background. Yes, it happens.

On the other hand, I personally can attest to business practices in this country, whether it be through quotations, purchase orders, inspections, after sales, etc which would be regarded as normal anywhere in this world. Unfortunately these are boring, normal and therefore never heard about or presented for comment.................

The thing is very simple to me though. It's about whether people see it as utterly normal about the way they make their living.

Here it has become completely ingrained and in 99% of cases goes completely unpunished. I may be utopian, but normally the majority are honest and the dishonest are a minority. In certain organisations, customs, police, local government, etc, I have a feeling that corrupt versus incorrupt individuals is approaching 50:50 maybe even worse.

To move in ones government career here you pay a little every day, just to stay in your job, let alone pay a lot to move on. It is a cancer.

The ones that typically have to pay to move up the ladder are they ones who can't manage it because they don't have the skills / experience themselves. Fortunately my wife didn't have to pay a baht to get a director's position in a college. She once told me a story about someone getting a high position. Then one day a guy turned up asking for a baht in gold - they had no idea who this person was; turned out they were in the chain of command and wanted their cut for 'helping' them.

This is how it works it Thailand - without corruption things simply don't get done....consider it 'Thainess' if you will:)

[h90]

its evident everytime you a see a politician's house and car

its evident when you see the tuition payments they can make so their kids attend international schools

its evident when your friend is refused a government contract because he takes the high road and refuses to overbill and under collect

its evident when you talk any Thai people, from what i have been told they feel the same way and express so on thai language forums

we have a neighbor who is policeman....must be a good paid job to have such a villa and 2 or 3 Mercedes

[David48]

Just pick up a local newspaper and you will find daily evidence of the fact that this country is rotten to the core by corruption and the absence of the rule of law .

Rotten, 'rotten' he says .. 'to the core'!

He would know ... he told me privately he's been 15 years ... but new to posting on Thai Visa.

Local newspaper ... Thai Language he must read ... much respect ...

[sotsira]

Go grab a seat at Sukhumvit Plaza Soi 12 and watch a farang smoking - within minutes you'll see him heading towards a nice little booth to make a 2000 baht donation. Ask the server how many the nab in a day. I get littering obviously but it becomes comical after an hour.

I would argue that that isn't corruption, just someone breaking the law for smoking where they shouldn't or littering by throwing their butt on the floor instead of putting it in a bin.

You don't have to read Thai to understand the signs.............

But instead of continually fining people why don't they put up some bins or ashtrays?

Because it will cost them money to do that, and then even more to maintain them.

[sotsira]

In the good ol USA it happens every day but we call it kickbacks not corruption.

Same same.

I read that annually about 900 US government officials are found guilty of bribery and/or corruption. That's the ones that are caught so I assume it's the tip of the iceberg.

Probably the same in most western countries - the difference being that when caught in the west we usually prosecute. Thailand has a habit of promoting them instead.

Edit: Here's the data - actually more like 1,200 per annum. http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004900.html

so what's that, as a percentage?

I would say it was a mark of the honesty of government that this information is freely available. I am sure that if you were to try to get authoritative figures for Thailand, you would be very sceptical of their accuracy

SC

My guess is, it would probably be zero per annum that are found guilty.

[robblok]

@david,

You are wrong here there are a few local newspapers here in English the Bangkok-post is one of them. I don't know if you have seen local Thai newspapers like the Thairat (thai) and compare them to the Bangkok post you will see what one is of better quality.

In this case i feel you are wrong for sure.

There might be thai language newspapers of high quality but most that i know of are more low quality ones while the Bangkokpost is high quality.

[David48]

Thanks for that robblock ... I concur (agree) ... I was just saying hello to our new member who has been living in Thailand for 15 years, but joined the Forum yesterday and banned already.

I actually enjoy reading both the Bangkok Post and sometimes the Nation.

[arthurboy]

Corruption is embedded in the Thai psyche. It's an inevitable and unavoidable part of everyday life.

What interests me is why Thai people accept this and choose to do nothing about it.

My single conclusion is that they fear the very real repercussions if they choose not to pay.

Fear is a powerful motivator.

But is it as simple as that?

[nydevco]

Corruption is a way of life in Thailand...

From the local market place to buying or selling a home or vehicle...

Even being aware of this cultural misfortune...I am still amazed at the creative ways the Thais have of removing baht from you...

Where is the evidence?...Everywhere!

[robblok]

Thanks for that robblock ... I concur (agree) ... I was just saying hello to our new member who has been living in Thailand for 15 years, but joined the Forum yesterday and banned already.

I actually enjoy reading both the Bangkok Post and sometimes the Nation.

To be honest, i can't read Thai, busy with it but because of work its a bit hard. But I have seen a few local newspapers and had my gf read them (they are available in some of the food stalls around our village when eating) But they are more like the Sun or something then the nation and Bangkok post. I am not sure if there are good Thai language newspapers, one would think there would be but I really don't know.

And for the member, then it might be the one that comes back all the time.

Corruption is real bad here but Thais are the ones who can change it (also real hard) we cannot. We can discuss it with our friends and loved ones but the Thais will have to do it.

[Thai at Heart]

In the good ol USA it happens every day but we call it kickbacks not corruption.

here it is often called commission.

in small cases entertainment money. You sell a product and actually you want to invite the decision makers to a nice dinner, or maybe the complete department.

That can't be wrong to invite someone to a dinner.

But very unfortunately you really really don't have the time but ask the decision maker if to excuse you from it and you just give him the 5000 or 10000 Baht cash for going to dinner. Of course there is no dinner and of course it is corruption. Just pretending there is none and everyone is honest.

Like giving the policemen 500 Baht so he can pay it in on the police station for you

And surely 1000 other "tricks" I don't know.

Dinners are one thing. That is normal in dealing with private companies. Dealing with government requires clear cash payments.

[dao16]

Being asked for 30,000 baht for a document that is supposed to be free (confirmed that with Thai embassy staff where I was living at the time....100% free). That is evidence.