Russia will enforce anti-gay propaganda law at Sochi Olympics, govt says

[NanLaew]

....

Sorry, I don't do controversialist polemics.

Thanks for standing down. The other gay guy seems to be managing those quite well on his own anyway.

Sincerely,

The Peanut Gallery

[Jingthing]

How is that Stoli Vodka boycott working out?

Not so bad it turns out.

The Russian Vodka Boycott Is Working, Whether You Like It or Not

Ultimately, the boycott has informed more people about gay rights in Russia, and it probably hasn't hurt Stoli too badly, so there's a net positive. That makes it harder for politicians, companies, and organizations involved with Russia and the 2014 Olympics to keep quiet on the issue. Hopefully that means an increase in international pressure on Putin and Russian lawmakers to make life better for LGBT people, but it remains to be seen whether that will happen. And yes, Putin and Russian lawmakers, not gay vodka boycotters or slacktivists, have the final say on policy. But the very fact that we'ret talking about Russian gay rights months before the 2014 Olympics is an achievement.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/08/russian-vodka-boycott-working-whether-you-it-or-not/68136/

Edited August 20, 2013 by Jingthing

[Publicus]

The United Nations has stated its opposition to the Russian "gay propaganda" law, as has the Human Rights Watch organization.

Here are the relevant developments.

Human Rights Watch

Russia: Drop Homophobic Law

Investigate Murders, Stop Prosecuting LGBT Groups

“Russia is trying very hard to make discrimination look respectable by calling it ‘tradition,’ but whatever term is used in the bill, it remains discrimination and a violation of the basic human rights of LGBT people,” said Graeme Reid, LGBT rights program director at Human Rights Watch.

“To try to exclude LGBT people as ‘non-traditional’ is to try and make them less than human. It is cynical, and it is dangerous.”

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/10/russia-drop-homophobic-law

Here's a news piece from earlier this year, before the current Olympic Games fiasco created by the Russian government.

UN tells Russia to scrap anti-gay ‘propaganda’ bill

UN rights experts advise Russian Duma to scrap bill on ‘homosexuality propaganda’

A group of United Nations independent human rights experts called on Russian lawmakers to scrap the law against ‘homosexual propaganda’.

The experts on freedom of expression, human rights defenders, cultural rights and the right to health warned the bill may undermine the enjoyment and promotion of human rights in Russia, unjustifiably singling out lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex people, who have increasingly become the target of sanctions and violence in the country.

The bill may also impact negatively health issues, warned the UN special rapporteur on the right to health, Anand Grover: ‘banning ‘propaganda of homosexuality’ may not only penalize those who promote sexual and reproductive health among LGBT people, but will also undermine the right of children to access health-related information in order to safeguard their physical and mental health’.

- See more at: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/un-tells-russia-scrap-anti-gay-%E2%80%98propaganda%E2%80%99-bill010213#sthash.z7ITRHc9.dpuf

Human Rights Watch

Russia’s Anti-LGBT Law Seems to Confuse Even Government Officials

http://www.hrc.org/blog/entry/russias-messaging-problem

And throughout, there’s been a deluge of Russian media officials taking to the mic to propagate anti-LGBT sentiments, the most recent from the Deputy General Director of Russia’s government-owned media Dmitri Kisilev, who called LGBT individuals, “unsuitable for a continuation of life.”

The law, which criminalizes even the most modest displays of support for the LGBT community, puts not only the athletes and travelers visiting Sochi for the Olympics, but impacts the health and safety of the Russian community long after the world turns its attention away from the games.

It’s time for the Russian government to go on record, once and for all, as to how the law will be enforced

[Scott]

An off-topic post and reply have been deleted.

[LeCharivari]

And now ... brace yourself ... book banning.

As if we are surprised.

Labeling the book "gay propaganda," Lelikov is demanding that the publication be removed from stores. He's also calling on law enforcement to penalize the stores that feature the non-fiction text.

The Russian-language book Lelikov is taking issue with -- GAYS. They Changed The World by Viktoriya Degtyareva -- pays tribute to prominent LGBT icons from Elton John to Oscar Wilde.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/17/gay-history-book-russia-saratov-removal-bookstores_n_3773477.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Why not a BONFIRE?

As my reply to this has been deleted as I compared this to book bannings in another country that have actually taken place recently I will confine my reply strictly to this topic and to Russia.

This is ONE INDIVIDUAL who has NO connection with the Soviet authorities other than being a member of a local parish council.

Like the ONE INDIVIDUAL who tried (and failed) to have Madonna and Lady Gaga prosecuted (under a similar local law) this has NO CONNECTION WITH SOVIET GOVERNMENT VIEWS OR TO THE APPLICATION OF THIS LAW.

Not to allow INDIVIDUALS to state their views, however unpleasant they may be, would seem to be the actions of a totalitarian dictatorship and something that is hardly liberal thinking and in line with the human rights being considered here - unless the only human rights permissible are those rights that we agree with, of course.

[Jingthing]

Sure thing, mate.

From the original link:

As Gay Star News notes, Russian lawmaker and State Duma deputy Olga Batalina has supported bookstore raids and seizure of gay literature in the region. So it's highly likely that Lelikov will get his wish.

Banning books, prosecuting book stores for carrying the banned books, not exactly the same thing as supporting free speech.

Hopefully those good people fighting to support the persecuted gay people of Russia will show the same energy, creativity and relentlessness as any apologists of Putin's government and his anti-gay crusade, wherever in the world they may be found.

Clearly the scapegoated gays of Russia have a Battle Royale on their hands.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Jingthing

[FDog]

The United Nations has stated its opposition to the Russian "gay propaganda" law, as has the Human Rights Watch organization.

Here are the relevant developments.

Human Rights Watch

Russia: Drop Homophobic Law

Investigate Murders, Stop Prosecuting LGBT Groups

“Russia is trying very hard to make discrimination look respectable by calling it ‘tradition,’ but whatever term is used in the bill, it remains discrimination and a violation of the basic human rights of LGBT people,” said Graeme Reid, LGBT rights program director at Human Rights Watch.

“To try to exclude LGBT people as ‘non-traditional’ is to try and make them less than human. It is cynical, and it is dangerous.”

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/10/russia-drop-homophobic-law

Here's a news piece from earlier this year, before the current Olympic Games fiasco created by the Russian government.

UN tells Russia to scrap anti-gay ‘propaganda’ bill

UN rights experts advise Russian Duma to scrap bill on ‘homosexuality propaganda’

A group of United Nations independent human rights experts called on Russian lawmakers to scrap the law against ‘homosexual propaganda’.

The experts on freedom of expression, human rights defenders, cultural rights and the right to health warned the bill may undermine the enjoyment and promotion of human rights in Russia, unjustifiably singling out lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and intersex people, who have increasingly become the target of sanctions and violence in the country.

The bill may also impact negatively health issues, warned the UN special rapporteur on the right to health, Anand Grover: ‘banning ‘propaganda of homosexuality’ may not only penalize those who promote sexual and reproductive health among LGBT people, but will also undermine the right of children to access health-related information in order to safeguard their physical and mental health’.

- See more at: http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/un-tells-russia-scrap-anti-gay-%E2%80%98propaganda%E2%80%99-bill010213#sthash.z7ITRHc9.dpuf

Human Rights Watch

Russia’s Anti-LGBT Law Seems to Confuse Even Government Officials

http://www.hrc.org/blog/entry/russias-messaging-problem

And throughout, there’s been a deluge of Russian media officials taking to the mic to propagate anti-LGBT sentiments, the most recent from the Deputy General Director of Russia’s government-owned media Dmitri Kisilev, who called LGBT individuals, “unsuitable for a continuation of life.”

The law, which criminalizes even the most modest displays of support for the LGBT community, puts not only the athletes and travelers visiting Sochi for the Olympics, but impacts the health and safety of the Russian community long after the world turns its attention away from the games.

It’s time for the Russian government to go on record, once and for all, as to how the law will be enforced

But you do have the time to keep posting waffle.

[LeCharivari]

Some of these quoted "reports" from Gay Star News, the Advocate and such-like are so wildly inaccurate and so poorly researched that to use them as any sort of authority smacks of desperation.

The Advocate claimed that "Local authorities attempted to prosecute them (Madonna and Lady Gaga) under the country's so-called "propaganda" law, which bans any talk of gay people while in the presence of minors. The attempt failed with the judiciary." Every fact was not just inaccurate, but plain wrong: there was NO "country's so-called "propaganda" law" at the time (2012) as the law wasn't actually passed until 2013; "local authorities" never "attempted to prosecute them" - one individual did; and his "attempt" never got to the "judiciary" - his application was rejected.

The Huffington Post quotes Gay Star News as saying that "State Duma deputy Olga Batalina has supported bookstore raids and seizure of gay literature in the region" and so concluded "So it's highly likely that Lelikov will get his wish". The reality of that "report" is that there have actually been NO documented "raids" and that Olga Batalina is NOT a "State Duma deputy" but she is a deputy to the State Duma deputy who, as an INDIVIDUAL, called for raids to be made.

The latest Gay Star News headline that "UN tells Russia to scrap anti-gay 'propaganda' bill" as if this was an official directive from the "UN" is wildly misleading as it is not even from a UN spokesman, anyone representing the UN, or any official UN body - it was simply the opinion of half-a-dozen independent UN human rights experts - INDIVIDUALS. I am not downplaying their expertise, but they do not represent the UN in any way nor do they pretend to.

[LeCharivari]

It has been mentioned that the problem with the "recent" anti-gay propaganda law (and I won't pretend that it is anything but that) in Russia is that it is "RECENT", unlike other "archaic" similar laws in other countries. Fair enough - it is "recent".

Russian authorities, like any other countries' authorities/regimes, have two options when faced with a problem they don't like and which they want to prevent: either to tell the judiciary (the courts) and the executive (the police) to mis-use "archaic" legislation and apply it to cases it was never intended for or to democratically pass new legislation specifically targeted at those they perceive to be offenders.

Some Western countries (I won't name them to avoid being contentious) prefer to use archaic laws, either to target homosexuals (such as stopping LGBT immigrants and visitors, at least up until the 1990's) or to defend them from perceived insults (such as calling a police horse "gay").

Russia doesn't do that and it seldom has, even in Soviet times. Instead it democratically passes legislation targeted at recent problems in order to deal with them - in this case the anti-gay propaganda laws to target LGBT activists and activist groups who are perceived to have offended Russian morals (such as Alexeyev), and similar but far more serious anti-blasphemy laws (with sentences of up to two years imprisonment, not 15 days) to target those blaspheming and desecrating religious sites (such as Pussy Riot).

I am not defending the laws but the background to them needs to be understood and personally from a human rights perspective I prefer democratically passed legislation to a government deciding arbitrarily to misuse old laws for a purpose they were never intended. Any law can be misused just as any law, old or new, can be a "bad" law - personally I think this is a "bad" law, but that it has been introduced at all rather than an old law misused for a similar purpose seems to me to be at least an indication of "good" government.

[LeCharivari]

....

Sorry, I don't do controversialist polemics.

Thanks for standing down. The other gay guy seems to be managing those quite well on his own anyway.

Sincerely,

The Peanut Gallery

I have no problem with being called "gay". Its not something I'm proud of any more than its something I'm ashamed of as its just the way I was born; its neither an achievement nor a failing, something to boast about or something to hide - it just is what it is.

[Jingthing]

I am under the impression there were some LOCAL versions SIMILAR to the NATIONAL Russian anti-gay propaganda laws on the books BEFORE the national law passed. No, the Advocate isn't the New York Times, but it sure beats some of the spin artists here as a credible source.

Russia isn't a democracy. Readers should be eating a large bucket of salt to season opinions praising the democratic processes of modern Russia. Not saying of course there should be any law against pro Russian government propaganda, as there is against so called "gay propaganda" in Russia.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Jingthing

[Totster]

Can this be moved to the Gay forum ? It seems the rest of us can't make a point without wanting to get too involved.

totster

[Jingthing]

Can this be moved to the Gay forum ? It seems the rest of us can't make a point without wanting to get too involved.

totster

I hope it isn't moved. This is international news of relevance to people all over the world, regardless of sexual orientation.

[sustento]

Can this be moved to the Gay forum ? It seems the rest of us can't make a point without wanting to get too involved.

totster

Nooooo! The gay forum is an ocean of calm and serenity. We don't need this in there

[LeCharivari]

I posed the question some time ago, which may have been assumed to be hypothetical hence the lack of response, that IF Sochi were to be moved or some other means found to discredit Putin "the dictator" causing his downfall, why does anyone think this would result in the repeal of the anti-gay propaganda law.

Most people here (even the anti-Putin lobby) agree that Putin is unlikely to cave-in to external pressure to change any Russian laws when it would be political suicide for him to do so, so the only apparent circumstances under which the law would be scrapped would be if he were no longer in power - hence, at least supposedly, the enthusiasm for regime change and him to be forced out one way or another.

I'll pose it again since this thread, after all, is about how best to get rid of the laws and whether anything done at/to Sochi can achieve that.

Q 1: IF Putin were to go, either because of external pressure and regime change or because he tripped and fell down the stairs (the "how" is really irrelevant and off-topic), then would that make ANY difference to the anti-gay laws? Personally, I can't see why it would - nobody else has sufficient influence to force an elected Duma to scrap a law that has popular support and anybody who stands up for LGBT rights as an issue has little or no chance of being elected.

Q 2: IF Putin were to go to be replaced by someone else, could the situation get WORSE? Very possibly, if not very PROBABLY, it could - whoever took over would lack Putin's authority and his total support from the Russian Orthodox Church and they would need to get that support (and, if possible, the support of the Russian Orthodox Muslims) to get a firm power base - exactly what Putin is accused of doing, but which he actually doesn't need to as he has always had that support. The only way of getting that support that I can see would be to appease them and find something they want, and the only thing they want that he could give them would be to hang gays and "blasphemers" out to dry. Not a good option.

As Scott pointed out in a parallel thread in the Gay Forum (I have to give credit where its due) there are really only two ways of getting political support and getting things changed:

EITHER get the support of the MAJORITY of the electorate

OR get the support of a MINORITY once the MAJORITY don't care ..... so that leads me to ...

Q 3: Unless there's a third option, short of a coup, how do Russian gays best go about getting either of the above options?

My answer to Q 3 would be that the second option is the one those Russian gay activists who wanted Alexeyev and foreign gay activists not to make waves were banking on as they saw it was working, but unfortunately that's crying over spilt milk so I'll wait and see what THEY want to do - and doing NOTHING would seem to be an option even if its not what "we" think they should be doing but what THEY want to do as it was working very nicely for THEM before WE got involved.

[LeCharivari]

Can this be moved to the Gay forum ? It seems the rest of us can't make a point without wanting to get too involved.

totster

Make a point! Get involved! You're son could be gay - it's not something you can plan on!

You don't need to be gay to have a view - 140 million Russians aren't gay and they've got views!

[Jingthing]

If you want to do nothing, do nothing. There is never going to be a unified voice from Russia gays to say do nothing, to do lots, or exactly what to do. That's just a fantasy to think there will be such a clear and consistent message. So international people are going to have to make up their own minds. Clearly those who already harbor a deeply seated anti-gay-activist ideology in general will PROJECT that on Russia. They will magically find a way to use their massively biased personal filters to hear a message from Russian gays to do nothing, regardless of the factual basis for that. And vice versa. I think activism is the ONLY choice. Things take time. There are setbacks. But you keep at it. So I'm both cynical and idealistic at the same time about this. There WILL be activism no matter what anti-activists think in Russia or anywhere and there's nothing anyone can do to fully stop it. If you don't like that, well, I'd say get out of the way and let OTHERS make history because doing nothing by definition ... doesn't. Anyone know the name of Harriet Smith, the black lady who sat on the back of the bus and did NOTHING? I thought not.

Needless to say, I'm not buying this demonization of the Russian gay activist pioneers championed here by a few voices. I think that's just a massively biased anti-activism political position. I label it a RIGHT WING position, you can label it as you like. You can get the picture more how our Russian friend here labeled a Russian gay activist as a revolutionary BOLSHEVIK ... that's the rhetoric of right wingers. No matter how this is denied, that is BLAMING the persecuted for their persecution. That's just wrong in any country in any time. Dudes, without the UPPITY gay people, the ACTIVISTS, the international gay civil rights movement would be NOWHERE.

Happily, I wouldn't worry, gay activism is alive and well in many countries of the world, and even in Russia where it is being crushed by a ruthless dictator, he won't be able to kill it. Yes Russian gays are in for a hard long road and many will want to seek refuge in friendlier countries. But our Russian friend who posited Russia will NEVER be a happy safe place for gays to live their lives openly is almost definitely wrong.

Edited August 20, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

A beautifully written piece about life in Russia today, and the question of the Russian government's views about oral sex for ... heterosexuals!

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/08/the-battle-over-russias-anti-gay-law.html

In fact, Mizulina has never spoken about banning oral sex—hence her complaint—but she was the key framer of Russia’s notorious new law that bans “propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations among minors” and has already incited aggressive and even violent assaults on L.G.B.T. activists. And once she’d begun regulating such delicate matters, Mizulina found herself immersed in the kind of public discussions that she, arguably, would rather avoid. Some journalists asked her to be clearer about what actually constitutes “nontraditional sexual relations”— whether they are restricted to just gays, lesbians, bisexualism, and transsexualism, or if it might be possible for opposite-sex couples to also practice “nontraditional” love-making. One asked her whether she thinks simply saying “gays are also human” would qualify as illegal propaganda. Along with all that, Mizulina has become the target of endless jokes on social media. Sobchak’s was just one instance, and a kinder one at that, in a stream of scoffing and mockery.

This is actually quite interesting and perhaps a clue to international people about the Russian culture of dissent.

And within Russia, the modernized minority’s primary weapon remains mockery. “My husband and I … are thinking of filing our own suit against Mizulina for insulting our private family life,” Sobchak told Rain. “The phrase ‘oral sex’ is so firmly associated with Mizulina now that we no longer feel like having it any more.”

Yelena Mizulina (Russian church lady on steroids?)

Edited August 20, 2013 by Jingthing

[sustento]

If you want to do nothing, do nothing. There is never going to be a unified voice from Russia gays to say do nothing, to do lots, or exactly what to do. That's just a fantasy to think there will be such a clear and consistent message. So international people are going to have to make up their own minds. Clearly those who already harbor a deeply seated anti-gay-activist ideology in general will PROJECT that on Russia. They will magically find a way to use their massively biased personal filters to hear a message from Russian gays to do nothing, regardless of the factual basis for that. And vice versa. I think activism is the ONLY choice. Things take time. There are setbacks. But you keep at it. So I'm both cynical and idealistic at the same time about this. There WILL be activism no matter what anti-activists think in Russia or anywhere and there's nothing anyone can do to fully stop it. If you don't like that, well, I'd say get out of the way and let OTHERS make history because doing nothing by definition ... doesn't. Anyone know the name of Harriet Smith, the black lady who sat on the back of the bus and did NOTHING? I thought not.

Needless to say, I'm not buying this demonization of the Russian gay activist pioneers championed here by a few voices. I think that's just a massively biased anti-activism political position. I label it a RIGHT WING position, you can label it as you like. You can get the picture more how our Russian friend here labeled a Russian gay activist as a revolutionary BOLSHEVIK ... that's the rhetoric of right wingers. No matter how this is denied, that is BLAMING the persecuted for their persecution. That's just wrong in any country in any time. Dudes, without the UPPITY gay people, the ACTIVISTS, the international gay civil rights movement would be NOWHERE.

Happily, I wouldn't worry, gay activism is alive and well in many countries of the world, and even in Russia where it is being crushed by a ruthless dictator, he won't be able to kill it. Yes Russian gays are in for a hard long road and many will want to seek refuge in friendlier countries. But our Russian friend who posited Russia will NEVER be a happy safe place for gays to live their lives openly is almost definitely wrong.

[mopar71]

Russia is being ridiculous - as usual. Yes, it's their country, they make their own laws. Right or wrong, it's up to Russians themselves to change over time. Russians like some other nations don't react well to being told what to do by outsiders so foreign protests won't help a bit. But to enforce it on foreign athletes at an international sporting event is wrong. Even Hitler let those not of the Master Race participate in the 1936 Olympics without harassing them.

Where is FIFA in all this? Doesn't Russia have the World Cup coming up in 2018 or 2022? Plenty of time to move it to someplace like London.

Edited August 21, 2013 by mopar71

[Scott]

<snipped>

Where is FIFA in all this? Doesn't Russia have the World Cup coming up in 2018 or 2022? Plenty of time to move it to someplace like London.

FIFA and the World Cup is probably a little off-topic, but definitely related to the topic. Hopefully, Russia will have some time to reflect on this law or at least the manner in which they chose to enforce it.

[mopar71]

<snipped>

Where is FIFA in all this? Doesn't Russia have the World Cup coming up in 2018 or 2022? Plenty of time to move it to someplace like London.

FIFA and the World Cup is probably a little off-topic, but definitely related to the topic. Hopefully, Russia will have some time to reflect on this law or at least the manner in which they chose to enforce it.

If the topic is strictly about the Olympics, maybe it is off-topic. If it is about Russia's treatment of gays at a major international sporting event, then it is spot-on topic. The only international sporting event close to the Olympics is the World Cup. If Russia gets away with persecuting foreign gays at the Olympics, you know they will do the same in a few years at the World Cup and we will be revisiting this controversy again. Winning both was a major coup for Russia and they are extremely proud of it. FIFA should come out now - while there is still plenty of time to move the venue - and tell Russia that if they interfere with athletes in any way, that they'll move the WC from Russia. Of course, FIFA is just as corrupt as the Olympic committee so don't expect that ever to happen.

[Scott]

I don't want to get involved in the topic too deeply, but just to remind people that it is about the Olympics and, as you pointed out, the treatment of gays.

I would hope that Russia's treatment of gays and this issue is based on a conviction that they are right and not on the persecution of a minority for political gain.

These issues change over time and politicians, like whores, take advantage of them. Hopefully, the Russian gov't and the people will begin to view gays differently in the short-term. Hopefully, the attention being brought to bear will be fruitful rather than harmful.

[rubin]

The organizers of the Miss Universe 2013 show intend to hold the event in Moscow in spite of the "anti-gay" law.

http://www.tmz.com/2013/08/20/miss-universe-pageant-moscow-anti-gay-law/

... and another piece of information for those who might does not know:

SPI Group which produces Vodka "Stoli" (Stolichnaya) and "Moskovksaya" is not a Russian company. These brands even are not sold on the territory of the Russian Federation. The headquarters of SPI Group is in Luxembourg. The production is exported from Latvia. Only some ingredients are imported from Russia and the Group has one of its factories in Russia. ....

Edited August 21, 2013 by rubin

[chuckd]

Update on "The Kiss":

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Russian Athletes Say Kiss 'Was Not Political'

4:25pm UK, Tuesday 20 August 2013

Quick kisses exchanged by four Russian female sprinters, exuberant after winning the 4 x 400 relay race at the world championships in Moscow, set off a flurry of speculation that it was their way of protesting Russia's new controversial anti-gay law.

Two of the women, who appeared to brush lips while kissing each other on the cheek, have spoken-out to dismiss suggestions their kiss was anything significant.

Yulia Gushchina said that the pair simply wanted to "show our happiness towards the people we see everyday," while team mate Kseniya Ryzhova added "you cannot even imagine what that feeling is when we realised that we have won".

http://news.sky.com/story/1131067/russian-athletes-say-kiss-was-not-political

[sustento]

Russia is being ridiculous - as usual. Yes, it's their country, they make their own laws. Right or wrong, it's up to Russians themselves to change over time. Russians like some other nations don't react well to being told what to do by outsiders so foreign protests won't help a bit. But to enforce it on foreign athletes at an international sporting event is wrong. Even Hitler let those not of the Master Race participate in the 1936 Olympics without harassing them.

Where is FIFA in all this? Doesn't Russia have the World Cup coming up in 2018 or 2022? Plenty of time to move it to someplace like London.

World Cup:

Russia 2018

Qatar 2022

[Publicus]

....

Sorry, I don't do controversialist polemics.

Thanks for standing down. The other gay guy seems to be managing those quite well on his own anyway.

Sincerely,

The Peanut Gallery

[LeCharivari]

Russia is being ridiculous - as usual. Yes, it's their country, they make their own laws. Right or wrong, it's up to Russians themselves to change over time. Russians like some other nations don't react well to being told what to do by outsiders so foreign protests won't help a bit. But to enforce it on foreign athletes at an international sporting event is wrong. Even Hitler let those not of the Master Race participate in the 1936 Olympics without harassing them.

Where is FIFA in all this? Doesn't Russia have the World Cup coming up in 2018 or 2022? Plenty of time to move it to someplace like London.

What exactly do you think is being "enforce(d) on foreign athletes at an international sporting event"?

The ONLY thing athletes, the media, spectators or anyone else, foreign or Russian, CAN NOT do is turn "an international sporting event" into a political circus and an occasion to promote a gay or ANY other sort of agenda. I don't see what's so wrong with that.

Anyone CAN be openly gay, whatever that means - they can hold hands and kiss anyone of the same sex (as many cultures do anyway) in public, have sex with any consenting adults of any sex in private, wear what they want, meet whoever they want wherever they want, etc.

What is this "it" that they CAN NOT do that you and others think people should be allowed to do at "an international sporting event" that they can't do at Sochi?

I have to correct you on your view that "Even Hitler let those not of the Master Race participate in the 1936 Olympics without harassing them" - he didn't. While any foreigners were allowed to compete and attend, German Jews had been stripped of their German citizenship and the right to vote, banned from public parks and swimming pools and from attending state secondary schools, and they were certainly not allowed to represent their country in any way. Despite the "parallels" claimed here, there is simply no comparison.

[LeCharivari]

I really do think that all this continued mention of supposed "Banning books, prosecuting book stores for carrying the banned books" does is to highlight the inadequacies of the sources quoted.

There is NO evidence of ANY book banning or prosecuting. NONE.

The supposed "Russian lawmaker and State Duma deputy Olga Batalina" who is getting far more publicity here than she deserves is neither a "Russian lawmaker" nor a "State Duma deputy" as the most basic of searches makes clear. Although she is undeniably "Russian" that is all she is: she is a deputy to a deputy on a provincial council - a very minor civil servant.

[LeCharivari]

<snipped>

Where is FIFA in all this? Doesn't Russia have the World Cup coming up in 2018 or 2022? Plenty of time to move it to someplace like London.

FIFA and the World Cup is probably a little off-topic, but definitely related to the topic. Hopefully, Russia will have some time to reflect on this law or at least the manner in which they chose to enforce it.

If the topic is strictly about the Olympics, maybe it is off-topic. If it is about Russia's treatment of gays at a major international sporting event, then it is spot-on topic. The only international sporting event close to the Olympics is the World Cup. If Russia gets away with persecuting foreign gays at the Olympics, you know they will do the same in a few years at the World Cup and we will be revisiting this controversy again. Winning both was a major coup for Russia and they are extremely proud of it. FIFA should come out now - while there is still plenty of time to move the venue - and tell Russia that if they interfere with athletes in any way, that they'll move the WC from Russia. Of course, FIFA is just as corrupt as the Olympic committee so don't expect that ever to happen.

Apart from some of the uninformed opinion here and elsewhere, why do you think Russia will be "persecuting foreign gays at the Olympics" - or any home-grown Russian gays?

The ONLY State restriction at the Olympics (or elsewhere) is on "propaganda" - in my view its neither a reasonable, rational or fair restriction, EXCEPT at venues like the Olympic Games, World Cup, etc which are supposed to be sporting events and where minor (or major) activist groups of ANY type (gay, neo-Nazi, whatever) should not be allowed to turn them into occasions where they can "make a statement", however valid those statements may be - that is NOT what they are for.

As for moving the World Cup because of any "gay" issues in Russia, that would be a bit premature given that the following World Cup is to be held in Qatar where LGBT rights are not only non-existent but where homosexual relationships are illegal, even in private, and result in imprisonment for up to five years and flogging for Qataris and foreigners alike.