German Legs It, Dumping Brand New Car After Failing To Stop At Checkpoint.

[jamman]

[Some are aware that in the Neuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals, the justices concluded that individuals posess both an innate moral authority and responsibility to act justly, irrespective of the state.

Today, an RAF Doctor of Medicine was found guilty at court marshal because he refused to do a third tour of Iraq.

He is now imprisoned for 8 months in a military jail.

If we take the statement by the poster as quoted, "innate moral authority and responsibility to act justly".

Then where does that leave a serving military person?. At risk from the law on one side for not having the rational to decide what they consider to be wrong, and at risk if they act upon their belief that what they are doing is wrong.

CATCH-22.

I have a solution for state imposed Catch 22s. Become a self employed expat.

Consider the original Star Wars movie. What of all the subcontractors working on the Death Star? Did they deserve to get all blowed up? What if you re-shingle a known mafiosa's house, and get wasted in a drive by? Were you innocent? The RAF doctor orignally threw away his rights to be a rightous man - he decided to be paid to be an automaton. Allright - that's hard to extricate from. If he seriously wanted to extricate from that, he should have left the system with less trace.

Edited April 13, 2006 by jamman

[saeb]

[If you see what quotes from the previous poster my statements followed, you may notice counter arguments to statements. I was arguing against the assertion that the State is the final aribiter and authority for "justice". The Neurenburg trial was an example of the US and worlds highest court deciding publicly that the State can never be the highest moral authority. Individuals, as declared by the State, must at times act in violation of the laws of the State, in order to act legally.

Actually - it was Churchill, Stalin and De Gaule who were the advocates of hanging as many Germans (and supporters) as was possible at Nurenberg.

The U.S. were happy for a token' demonstration - given they had Werner Von Braun and other specialists they were of the opinion that there was something to be had.

Churchill and Stalin had a recorded conversation where they discussed how many to hang.

"Shall we have the white wine my dear or the red?".

Pierrpoint personally hanged 200 Germans - 4 hangmen working overtime just on the Brit side.

What about the Russian figures?.

The winners decide and justice comes a poor second.

[jamman]

[

The winners decide and justice comes a poor second.

Yes, you could spin the decision as just a rationalization for how many to hang. But the argument used for that most visible trial of the highest court is still a profound legal and moral precedent.

At the very least it begs us to not be glib in giving the state legal authority. The State itself has decreed that it has no such authority, and can not. The Nurenburg trial didn't decree that the German state has no authority to kill Jews, it decreed that the individual must not perform crimes against humanity, regardless of the laws of ANY State.

Now what is a crime against another human? Putting them in a prison where they can expect torture and rape, for inhaling a burning plant? Maybe. I wouldn't leave such deep thought up to a politician, or a judge.

Oh, and it is worth noting that the Penal industry in the US is now largely privately run, and spends millions on lobbying politicians for strict drug laws. Get that? Sick. Ok, so it wasn't me who said that the Jews had to wear stars on their sleeve. It's not my responsibility. I can look away. Let the State handle it. It's doing a fine job.

Edited April 13, 2006 by jamman

[saeb]

[

I have a solution for state imposed Catch 22s. Become a self employed expat.

I am, I am, I am, I am. Great isn't it?. Much better than working for a living!.

[saeb]

[Some are aware that in the Neuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals, the justices concluded that individuals posess both an innate moral authority and responsibility to act justly, irrespective of the state.

Today, an RAF Doctor of Medicine was found guilty at court marshal because he refused to do a third tour of Iraq.

He is now imprisoned for 8 months in a military jail.

If we take the statement by the poster as quoted, "innate moral authority and responsibility to act justly".

Then where does that leave a serving military person?. At risk from the law on one side for not having the rational to decide what they consider to be wrong, and at risk if they act upon their belief that what they are doing is wrong.

CATCH-22.

I have a solution for state imposed Catch 22s. Become a self employed expat.

Consider the original Star Wars movie. What of all the subcontractors working on the Death Star? Did they deserve to get all blowed up? What if you re-shingle a known mafiosa's house, and get wasted in a drive by? Were you innocent? The RAF doctor orignally threw away his rights to be a rightous man - he decided to be paid to be an automaton. Allright - that's hard to extricate from. If he seriously wanted to extricate from that, he should have left the system with less trace.

Ooo-err - what has a Star Wars movie got to do with rationality?.

It is fiction - it is an idea.

Do you believe in Alice in Wonderland?. Is that reality?.

The fact that a serving officer in the RAF who holds the took a decision to protest against what he perceived to be an illegal occupation of a soveriegn state took some guts.

He will be removed from any list, be discharged with dishonour and lose any gratuity and pension rights due to him.

However, I stand by the situation, (Scots may appreciate this), "Deil tak the hindmost".

[Prakanong2005]

Gernam guy Norbert bolt from expensive car, Thai woman fingers him as the owner of large amount of illegal drugs, he ends up on a police APB.

You may be thinking this is fun. I think german dude has a wee problem that need to be sorted with the thai authorities. If german guy horses around with drugs, he need to go to court. And he should count himself lucky that he isn't thai, the drug sweep some time ago saw a lot of "suspects" dead.

Some posters are assuming that he was the carrier of drugs....this may be the case. On the other hand he may have not been carrying drugs at all.....

Yeah - the bags might have been full of money and he did not want the BiB to have a shifty at it

[jamman]

[Some are aware that in the Neuremberg trials of Nazi war criminals, the justices concluded that individuals posess both an innate moral authority and responsibility to act justly, irrespective of the state.

Today, an RAF Doctor of Medicine was found guilty at court marshal because he refused to do a third tour of Iraq.

He is now imprisoned for 8 months in a military jail.

If we take the statement by the poster as quoted, "innate moral authority and responsibility to act justly".

Then where does that leave a serving military person?. At risk from the law on one side for not having the rational to decide what they consider to be wrong, and at risk if they act upon their belief that what they are doing is wrong.

CATCH-22.

I have a solution for state imposed Catch 22s. Become a self employed expat.

Consider the original Star Wars movie. What of all the subcontractors working on the Death Star? Did they deserve to get all blowed up? What if you re-shingle a known mafiosa's house, and get wasted in a drive by? Were you innocent? The RAF doctor orignally threw away his rights to be a rightous man - he decided to be paid to be an automaton. Allright - that's hard to extricate from. If he seriously wanted to extricate from that, he should have left the system with less trace.

Ooo-err - what has a Star Wars movie got to do with rationality?.

It is fiction - it is an idea.

Do you believe in Alice in Wonderland?. Is that reality?.

The fact that a serving officer in the RAF who holds the took a decision to protest against what he perceived to be an illegal occupation of a soveriegn state took some guts.

He will be removed from any list, be discharged with dishonour and lose any gratuity and pension rights due to him.

However, I stand by the situation, (Scots may appreciate this), "Deil tak the hindmost".

>It is fiction - it is an idea.

Wow - how do I respond to that? Philosophy is fiction? Logic is fiction? Math is fiction? Analogy and inference is fiction? Yes, it is an idea. It is an example of logical types. The example of one thing can relate to a separate thing, as in metaphor and analogy. Fiction or not is irrelevent - it helps to illustrate and explain by analogy. There is no way to think that is not done with ideas, and ideas are always not concrete - they always use one thing to represent another. We don't have literal girls in cars in our brains - we use substitute images for them, and to think about meaning, we likewise need substitute images of other similar things - classes of things, related things. Thinking is always about similarities and comparisons. Don't you see the similarity? What difference if it is fiction? Is it just or not to blow up a contractor who is knowingly working for an unjust corporation? The idea is neither fiction nor not fiction - it is abstract.

Yes, protesting took guts, but then he can't complain about getting run over by the system. He wanted to make a big statement -fine. If he wanted to simply not serve again, he would have chosen a different course of action. He got what he surely must have known he would get - run over.

[slipper1]

He knew his girfriend had Yabba on her and was afraid to stop thinking that he would be arrested for her possesion. He was so affraid that he left his car behind and fled.

Ha! Ha!..... thats why he fled carrying two bags

,,,i know why the german guy fled carrying 2 bags,,,he was running to meet his friend,,,the german bus driver who is thought to have raped the blind girls,not knowing he had already been arrested,,and he thought he could get through the traffic quicker on foot to catch the bus on time!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[cobra]

... car failed to stop. A chase ensued ...

Gutsy stuff, getting in a car chase with the cops, with the possibility of a shoot out,

I'm thinking this guy is either a real player, real stupid, or easily panicked, maybe a combination.

[saeb]

Wow - how do I respond to that? Philosophy is fiction? Logic is fiction? Math is fiction? Analogy and inference is fiction? Yes, it is an idea. It is an example of logical types. The example of one thing can relate to a separate thing, as in metaphor and analogy. Fiction or not is irrelevent - it helps to illustrate and explain by analogy. There is no way to think that is not done with ideas, and ideas are always not concrete - they always use one thing to represent another. We don't have literal girls in cars in our brains - we use substitute images for them, and to think about meaning, we likewise need substitute images of other similar things - classes of things, related things. Thinking is always about similarities and comparisons. Don't you see the similarity? What difference if it is fiction? Is it just or not to blow up a contractor who is knowingly working for an unjust corporation? The idea is neither fiction nor not fiction - it is abstract.

Yes, protesting took guts, but then he can't complain about getting run over by the system. He wanted to make a big statement -fine. If he wanted to simply not serve again, he would have chosen a different course of action. He got what he surely must have known he would get - run over.

Yup - easy answers to your comments:

1. Of course philosophy is fiction. It is purely an idea of a concept purported by an individual as truth but with no fact or basis to prove the theorem.

I.E., the world is flat. god is real.

2. "As in metaphor and analogy". Sorry guv'nor, it is 'either, or'. To use a metaphor in order to prove an analogy shows a lack of being able to present a conscise argument in the language of your choice.

A basis of the written word is that we can explain a feeling, emotion or event without recourse to analogy and whilst metaphor can be useful to help explain the useage of unlearned language,

(metaphor in Shakespeare studies anyone?), we should not require require to use a ficticious and fantastical example to try to prove a point.

3. How do you work out that I said that logic is fiction or maths is fiction?.

I have never said any such thing - and thus you are entering into a discussion facts that are in actual fact unsaid and untrue. They were never said by me and to that extent destroy your argument.

I stick with what is available and said. You choose to put words into others mouths.

4. What's with the literal girls in cars?. Heh-heh- I got over that when I got my first apartment..

[saeb]

We don't have literal girls in cars in our brains - we use substitute images for them, and to think about meaning

Actually - if anyone has tried getting their leg over in a Ford Escort 1100 with a 19 year old student Physicist in late November in Scotland after doing an 18 hour day doing casevac on N.Sea offshore after 6 pints and kanckered.............Forget it.

Much more pleasant as you get older. No metaphors or analogies.

Bed is better.

No cops.

No freezing.

And no more Escort 1100's. (Praise be!).

I have no substitute image for these events - they happened, but then I was a horny young chap making available to what was offered.

Now?. I am still alive. Great life isn't it!.

Bell 212 - Queen of the skies.

[bendejo]

Bags of loot? Drugs? money, or all three..... If he had stopped and was caught in possession then big trouble and the slammer...as it is he will probably be charged (if found) with failing to stop and disobeying the BIB.

Dirty laundry perhaps?

The chap is incredibly embarassed by his skidmarks.

[Mighty Mouse]

Could it have been that the driver of the car was nothing more than a conscientious Pizza Hut delivery boy.

He didn't stop at the check point for fear that a Chicken Supreme pizza (in one bag) and a Hawaiian Pizza (in the other bag) would become cold.

[tartempion]

Why didn't he just pay the 200 baht tea money that every farang is expected to pay the cops when he get stopped at any check point?

Never had them check my belongings, they are only there for the xtra income

[Maejo Man]

Why didn't he just pay the 200 baht tea money that every farang is expected to pay the cops when he get stopped at any check point?

Never had them check my belongings, they are only there for the xtra income

Farangs are not expected to pay anything at a check point. Where did you get that little gem from? There are organised check points, and then there are groups of police lurking round corners stopping motor cycles. We have no idea, in this case, whether it was an official check point, or a self organised "tea money" collection scheme.

Official check points are serious stuff, at least up near the border areas, and are set up when the police have a "tip off" that goods are being moved, or are after a particular person.

There are warning signs, red lights, and the road is funneled down to one lane with the aid of barriers. Normally manned by two to three dozen police officers, and tea money is neither asked for or accepted. All very polite and official. "good morning sir, where are you going? Where have you come from? Thank you very much, have a nice day."

You must move in murky circles if you go round expecting to pay all the time, or you paperwork is not in order.

[Mobi]

>It is fiction - it is an idea.

Maybe the whole PCN report is fiction.

[Mobi]

Why didn't he just pay the 200 baht tea money that every farang is expected to pay the cops when he get stopped at any check point?

Never had them check my belongings, they are only there for the xtra income

Farangs are not expected to pay anything at a check point. Where did you get that little gem from? There are organised check points, and then there are groups of police lurking round corners stopping motor cycles. We have no idea, in this case, whether it was an official check point, or a self organised "tea money" collection scheme.

Official check points are serious stuff, at least up near the border areas, and are set up when the police have a "tip off" that goods are being moved, or are after a particular person.

There are warning signs, red lights, and the road is funneled down to one lane with the aid of barriers. Normally manned by two to three dozen police officers, and tea money is neither asked for or accepted. All very polite and official. "good morning sir, where are you going? Where have you come from? Thank you very much, have a nice day."

You must move in murky circles if you go round expecting to pay all the time, or you paperwork is not in order.

I'm sorry mate, but that's bullshit.

OK there may be the odd occasion when the scenario you depict actually happens, but for a vast majority of the time, the cops at road blocks, official or unofficial, are after tea money - pure and simple. The prey mainly on the poorer sectors of the population with their motorbikes, trucks, pickups, older cars and taxis etc, but they are certainly not averse to fleecing farangs, whether or not their paper work is in order.

I have been driving in Thailand for many years , and have been stopped many times on every pretext you can dream of, and I would say that on the majority of these times I have not broken the law in any way, but had to pay just to get on with my life - usually double what a Thai would pay. I even 'got done' for doing an illegal U turn which I never did, and on a very bizzare occasion 'got done' for my number plate being too small - well it was worth 200 Baht fororiginality. (a subsequent inquiry at the traffic office when I went to renew the registration confirmed there was nothing wrong with it). The Police have stopped me in avery corner of the country - from Bangkok - to Hua Hin to Nong Khai - to Khon Kaen to Chieng Mai to Sa Kaeo and God knows where else.

I have now solved the problem. 2 years ago I bought a new, shiny black Ford Escape, and had very dark film put on all the windows. I have since driven some 55,000 kms, and have NEVER BEEN STOPPED. They don't know who is inside and always leave me alone. I have been through so many road blocks and they alway wave me on - probably think its an important Puyai at the wheel. (Kaman Poh maybe?)

The fact that I can barely see at night, doesn't seem to bother them.

So I'd like to know where this 'Alice in Wonderland Thailand' is, where the wonderful, incorruptible bib's salute and send you on your way with a smile and a "Have a nice day sir'.

[shaunoro]

Correct Mobi.

I totally agree with you.

Every one is sumising thet he had 2 bags of Yabba.

If correct, Toxin can send the cleaners in and be done with it.

Hang, draw and quater.

Nazi's and Jews should not be on this thread.

[Maejo Man]

I'm sorry mate, but that's bullshit.

OK your opinion, and you are entitled to it

OK there may be the odd occasion when the scenario you depict actually happens, but for a vast majority of the time, the cops at road blocks, official or unofficial, are after tea money - pure and simple. The prey mainly on the poorer sectors of the population with their motorbikes, trucks, pickups, older cars and taxis etc, but they are certainly not averse to fleecing farangs, whether or not their paper work is in order.

It happens to me all the time, and in twenty years of driving the length and breadth of Thailand, I have never been asked for a cent.

Averaging 40,000 Kms a year from Mae Sai to Sungai Kalok, and Savanaket to Mae Sot I have experienced more road blocks that the average driver, and the police have always been civil.

I have been driving in Thailand for many years , and have been stopped many times on every pretext you can dream of, and I would say that on the majority of these times I have not broken the law in any way, but had to pay just to get on with my life - usually double what a Thai would pay.

All I can say to that is they obviously don't like the look of you. We all post from personal experience on this forum, and in my experience I have never had a problem

I have now solved the problem. 2 years ago I bought a new, shiny black Ford Escape, and had very dark film put on all the windows. I have since driven some 55,000 kms, and have NEVER BEEN STOPPED. They don't know who is inside and always leave me alone. I have been through so many road blocks and they alway wave me on - probably think its an important Puyai at the wheel. (Kaman Poh maybe?)

Now you seem to be learning

[limbos]

What makes me wonder is that he MiB actually consider stopping a BMW 7 series, I thought they were above the law.

[monty]

I have just been asked a 1000 Baht donation to avoid having to take a breathalizer test.

After telling them I would rather prefer the test as I was stone dead sober I was waved on

With a night in jail (or 20000 Baht bail and a court appearance later on) when over the limit of .5 promille I can imagine many drivers taking up the offer, even if just slighly in doubt the test might turn positive...

This was bang in front of the main highway police office, with loads of volunteers assising the MIB...

[Mobi]

I'm sorry mate, but that's bullshit.

OK your opinion, and you are entitled to it

OK there may be the odd occasion when the scenario you depict actually happens, but for a vast majority of the time, the cops at road blocks, official or unofficial, are after tea money - pure and simple. The prey mainly on the poorer sectors of the population with their motorbikes, trucks, pickups, older cars and taxis etc, but they are certainly not averse to fleecing farangs, whether or not their paper work is in order.

It happens to me all the time, and in twenty years of driving the length and breadth of Thailand, I have never been asked for a cent.

Averaging 40,000 Kms a year from Mae Sai to Sungai Kalok, and Savanaket to Mae Sot I have experienced more road blocks that the average driver, and the police have always been civil.

I have been driving in Thailand for many years , and have been stopped many times on every pretext you can dream of, and I would say that on the majority of these times I have not broken the law in any way, but had to pay just to get on with my life - usually double what a Thai would pay.

All I can say to that is they obviously don't like the look of you. We all post from personal experience on this forum, and in my experience I have never had a problem

I have now solved the problem. 2 years ago I bought a new, shiny black Ford Escape, and had very dark film put on all the windows. I have since driven some 55,000 kms, and have NEVER BEEN STOPPED. They don't know who is inside and always leave me alone. I have been through so many road blocks and they alway wave me on - probably think its an important Puyai at the wheel. (Kaman Poh maybe?)

Now you seem to be learning

Ok Maejo Man - you say it as you see it, and that's fair enough. I take back the 'bullshit' comment.

I guess Bangkok is worse than anywhere else, and the cops there seem to rub their hands in glee whenever they see a farang at the wheel. Although, having said that, I have been stopped in the "back of beyond' , for no other reason than everyone is stopped, and we all have to get out of our vehicles and go and pay the head honcho and return to our cars. Nothing to do with being a farang.

I think you've been pretty lucky - or maybe your route is a lucky one.

Anyway my problem sems to be solved so what the hel_l.

I think I look fairly respectable.

Edited April 14, 2006 by Mobi D'Ark

[Maejo Man]

I'm sorry mate, but that's bullshit.

OK your opinion, and you are entitled to it

Ok Maejo Man - you say it as you see it, and that's fair enough. I take back the 'bullshit' comment.

I guess Bangkok is worse than anywhere else, and the cops there seem to rub their hands in glee..........

Not a problem Mobi, we all call it as we see it, and yes Bangkok seems worse that anywhere else.

[astral]

I am not surprised he legged it, the Pattaya police have been rather hot on

Germans lately, especially ones "wanted" back home!!

[Kerryd]

Wow, over 4,800 "views" and 84 replies in less than 24 hours, in a thread about a German guy who ran away from a police checkpoint.

Meanwhile a story posted at the same time, about a German guy who went high-diving from his hotel on soi 8, has 136 views and 3 replies.

I guess a dead guy isn't as exciting as a guy on the lam under suspicious circumstances. I still wonder if the 2 stories are connected somehow.

[robint]

I'm sorry mate, but that's bullshit.

OK your opinion, and you are entitled to it

OK there may be the odd occasion when the scenario you depict actually happens, but for a vast majority of the time, the cops at road blocks, official or unofficial, are after tea money - pure and simple. The prey mainly on the poorer sectors of the population with their motorbikes, trucks, pickups, older cars and taxis etc, but they are certainly not averse to fleecing farangs, whether or not their paper work is in order.

It happens to me all the time, and in twenty years of driving the length and breadth of Thailand, I have never been asked for a cent.

Averaging 40,000 Kms a year from Mae Sai to Sungai Kalok, and Savanaket to Mae Sot I have experienced more road blocks that the average driver, and the police have always been civil.

I have been driving in Thailand for many years , and have been stopped many times on every pretext you can dream of, and I would say that on the majority of these times I have not broken the law in any way, but had to pay just to get on with my life - usually double what a Thai would pay.

All I can say to that is they obviously don't like the look of you. We all post from personal experience on this forum, and in my experience I have never had a problem

I have now solved the problem. 2 years ago I bought a new, shiny black Ford Escape, and had very dark film put on all the windows. I have since driven some 55,000 kms, and have NEVER BEEN STOPPED. They don't know who is inside and always leave me alone. I have been through so many road blocks and they alway wave me on - probably think its an important Puyai at the wheel. (Kaman Poh maybe?)

Now you seem to be learning

I agree maejo man. Ive been driving a battered pickup for 10 years around various parts and have been stopped on occasions but mostly 9 out of 10 just waived through. I must say tho that my wife schooled me carefully on the correct etiquet for such occurences. we always keep a few hundred baht notes under the dashboard just in case, but its very rare we actually have to pay because, as a flang , i make sure that the truck is 100% legal - and - a tip - I only use a top grade unsiurance company with fully comp class 1 insurance very visible on the windscreen

I have only encountered most polite officers, never any ill treatment - another tip - all this wai-ing is very difficult for flangs. I have found that a smart miltary style salute goes down very well as an alternative - big smiloe too of course and ccustomary pleasanteries.

my wife says that of course they are checking all the trucks and dogdy isuzu 10 tonners simply because their papers are never in order, no proper registration tax insurance raodworthiness, pretty frightening in reality, but they just pay their way through - i know this for a fact. what the police are really after is illegal workers drugs, timber and other such stuff, though its only a token inspection generally unless some big criminal is on the run. well TIT

[Pattaya_Fox]

Could it have been that the driver of the car was nothing more than a conscientious Pizza Hut delivery boy.

He didn't stop at the check point for fear that a Chicken Supreme pizza (in one bag) and a Hawaiian Pizza (in the other bag) would become cold.

Not so Mr Mouse....It`s common knowledge that if the customer requires Hot Pizza they use the Ferrari for deliveries and not the BMW 7 series.

[raro]

maybe time to update the BIB fleet vehicles.

They'll add a 7 series BMW anytime soon...

[thaiexpat]

Its a good job that his name isnt POL POT or the Thai police would never be able to find him.

No! He`s probably called Hans Offmebags

Good one, that gave me quite a chuckle. Now as to the German national feeling with 2 bags? Well, he either knew the game was already up on something else and was attempting to flee the country or as others have pointed out, he had stuff in those bags that he didn't want to be caught with. As it is, can you be charged with fleeing a "Beemer?" Not even in the Land of Smiles one would hope.

[Wellington]

Its a good job that his name isnt POL POT or the Thai police would never be able to find him.

No! He`s probably called Hans Offmebags

Good one, that gave me quite a chuckle. Now as to the German national feeling with 2 bags? Well, he either knew the game was already up on something else and was attempting to flee the country or as others have pointed out, he had stuff in those bags that he didn't want to be caught with. As it is, can you be charged with fleeing a "Beemer?" Not even in the Land of Smiles one would hope.

Edited April 15, 2006 by Rse