What's Wrong with Renting?

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I have had a lot of Thais call my wife "Dante's wife" when introducing her, they almost always do it when speaking English.

What is an official organization?

I think he means "Court" but I am not entirely sure. For sure, no court in Thailand would entertain the dissolution of an unregistered marriage as "palimony" cases are not recognized here. A Thai couple/Thai-farang couple who later settled in Europe or North America, Australia, etc. would not make it past the front door of the courthouse without an official certified copy of the document registering their marriage at the Amphur.

Indeed he is also correct on the issue of children. Without a registered marriage the 'father' is nothing more than a glorified babysitter unless one or both of the parents petitioned the court for a document (the Thai name of which escapes me now) recognizing the father as the legitimate father. It does not matter who is named on the child's birth certificate.

or try getting a married visa extension from Thai immigration, as she is your 'wife'.

Edited August 28, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[historyprof]

You are the judge of who is married or not? You talked to the 10 monks and the 500 people at the wedding? You talked to the village elders and my wife's mother? I live in Thailand. Everyone I know including the mayor of the town calls my wife, my wife. My wife gave me a rental contract that I present to the officials at immigration and they call my wife my wife. I know at least 1000 people who call my wife my wife. You may disagree but it's 1000 to one who think she is my wife. What percent of Thai people register marriages? Maybe you could take a Thai culture lesson. We are not two lawyers discussing a legal point here. I pay my wife rent instead of buying her a house and you called me a sucker and said I had an abnormal marriage. Ya right!

No Thai will call her your 'wife', it's not a Thai word.

Without official marriage your relationship is mia/pua.

After legal marriage your relationship is panraya/samee.

Thais are very precise about such relationships, English translations of the Thai descriptions are imprecise.

No government or official organisation in the world will judge you to be married, you have no marital rights in Thailand, you wouldn't even be considered to be the father of any children, you had with her, by the Thai government.

I have had a lot of Thais call my wife "Dante's wife" when introducing her, they almost always do it when speaking English.

What is an official organization?

I think he means "Court" but I am not entirely sure. For sure, no court in Thailand would entertain the dissolution of an unregistered marriage as "palimony" cases are not recognized here. A Thai couple/Thai-farang couple who later settled in Europe or North America, Australia, etc. would not make it past the front door of the courthouse without an official certified copy of the document registering their marriage at the Amphur.

Indeed he is also correct on the issue of children. Without a registered marriage the 'father' is nothing more than a glorified babysitter unless one or both of the parents petitioned the court for a document (the Thai name of which escapes me now) recognizing the father as the legitimate father. It does not matter who is named on the child's birth certificate.

You miss the point. No one was debating the legal status of marriage in Thailand. A lot of Thais don't register marriages at the Amphur the Prime Minister is one of them and this is not unusual in Thailand but that is not the point either.

The point was that I pay a woman rent who I and all of our acquaintances and family and Thai officials to include city government, police, Army and Navy, school teachers and monks refer to as my wife (they all came to the wedding it was a very posh affair).

It is rent because the money will not be used to get me equity in her home. It is her house. She can do with it what she likes.

Lewis Grizzard once said, I don't think I'll get married again. I'll just find a woman I don't like and give her a house. I know this applies to the West but I don't know if it also applies in Thailand. I've never met Lewis Grizzard in person.

[rayongchelsea]

Buying or renting is in most cases not just a financial decision. Are you married, kids, what is your risk profile etc..a few percent here or there not does no make for a very persuasive argument.

Exchange rates and the restrictions on farangs is what really matters..

If single, surely renting is in most cases the correct decision especially here.

As for the wife or not wife argument, it is not uncommon not to register amongst Thais, but I always thought that it was a given with Thai/ farang relationships, given visa, resettlement etc...but that has nothing to do with this topic..

[IsaanUSA]

there was a rent/buy scenario given: buy 2.2 million or rent for 11,000. Here is the answer: take purchase price and divide by annual rent: 2,200,000/121,000 you get a ratio of 18.18. That's too high. That's only a 6% gross, you really want 12% if not 18%.

An Australian accountant taught me to look at it this way. Take 40% of gross rent to cover all expenses and fees. Subtract P & I from the other 60%. That gives you net cash flow. Say you paid cash. that would leave you with 6600 per month * 12=79,200 per year. 79,200 + 2,200,00 would be a 3.6% net, Phillip Morris just increased their dividend for the 47th time in 44 years. It's yielding 5.6%.

Thighlander I'm a math person, but I don't quite understand your reply.

Where do you get the 6% number from? Are you saying it is better to buy or rent in this scenario? I'm confused.

[heybruce]

I disagree with most statements here.

In my opinion renting is a waste of money, it is not what certain people tend to think but rather a fact. You rent something, you keep filling somebody else's pocket.

(I have a lady friend trying to anchor me in Thailand who keeps making that argument.)

You buy it, you make an investment by any means. If you live in it then thats why it was an investment. If you dont then thats why It was an investment. Because if you dont live in it then you are going to rent it out so your asset is making money for you. Even if you dont rent it out just decide to keep it in good condition and sell it later, you are going to make profit.

(That was the argument real estate agents and loan officers made before the recent real estate bubble burst. Remember that?)

A property investment when done smartly, is never a waste of money.

(Here's the question, is Thailand, with all its restrictions on foreign ownership of property, along with many other considerations, a smart place to invest in property?)

It is just common sense. In my opinion most people who commented here are not entrepreneurs or investors. .thats why they have made such comments. No insult intended towards anybody but I speak from experience. If one buys a property anywhere in the world strictly for investment reasons then an agency is going to take care of it for a small commission and that person has made a good investment.

(Once again you seem like a real estate promoter before the bubble burst. Did you sleep through that recent crisis? People can lose money investing in real estate. A great many have, as have supposedly intelligently run businesses.)

You can either buy assets that generate income like a property in this case or buy liabilities that is only going to cost you. Approximately 7% of wealthy individuals rent property. The rest of them own it. The reason behind that is simple: they understand that they are only going to benefit from it, again if done properly. Thats one of the reasons they are wealthy. They understand what most people dont.

(Do you know of any foreignors who got rich investing in property in Thailand? Do you know any rich foreignors who own a house and land in Thailand in their own name?)

Sent from one of my devices using the internet

I agree real estate can be a good investment. I own a house in New Mexico and am considering buying another in Florida. However I have no confidence in the condominium market in Chiang Mai, no intention of marrying and buying the wife a house, and no interest in using legal trickery to maybe sort-of own property in Thailand.

The Thai government has made it very clear that it doesn't want me to invest in Thailand, and I'm going to respect its wishes--for as long as I live in Thailand I will only bring in enough money to live comfortably and will keep the bulk of my assets outside the country. I've rented since I've come to Thailand and I will continue to do so.

Edited August 28, 2013 by heybruce

[hawker9000]

there was a rent/buy scenario given: buy 2.2 million or rent for 11,000. Here is the answer: take purchase price and divide by annual rent: 2,200,000/121,000 you get a ratio of 18.18. That's too high. That's only a 6% gross, you really want 12% if not 18%.

An Australian accountant taught me to look at it this way. Take 40% of gross rent to cover all expenses and fees. Subtract P & I from the other 60%. That gives you net cash flow. Say you paid cash. that would leave you with 6600 per month * 12=79,200 per year. 79,200 + 2,200,00 would be a 3.6% net, Phillip Morris just increased their dividend for the 47th time in 44 years. It's yielding 5.6%.

Thighlander I'm a math person, but I don't quite understand your reply.

Where do you get the 6% number from? Are you saying it is better to buy or rent in this scenario? I'm confused.

Well, I get the 6% part. He's just taking the inverse of the 18.18 (it's actually 5.5%). Saying that it should be 12% or 18% implies to me that he's saying buy/rent ratio (I think of it as pseudo-payback period) should be as little as 5 - 8! Since 18+ is nowhere near that, not a good buy. Either the price is too high, or an appropriate rent potential isn't there.

Based on the expected cashflow (from renting it out...), I think he's saying it's also not a good investment, therefore better to rent it than buy it. (Or maybe neither if there's some reason for the rent being so low.)

In Thailand, he expects buy-rent ratios of only 5 to 8? 'Not sure I get that. This site suggests it's currently around 16 for the country, which is less, but not dramatically so, than the 18.18 in this example.

BTW - I think the ' + ' sign in the 2nd para computation should be a ' / '...

79,200 / 2,200,000 = .036

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Buying or renting is in most cases not just a financial decision. Are you married, kids, what is your risk profile etc..a few percent here or there not does no make for a very persuasive argument.

From what I have seen a foreigner buying a house for a Thai wife up front destabilises the marriage, this is what I see happening:

1. She now has financial power over her foreigner husband.

2. She doesn't need him as much.

3. She is more likely to become unfaithful/stop having sex with the foreigner.

Edited August 29, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[Thighlander]

That's correct, should be a "\". You seem to get it. I was talking more on a global basis, but you could find 12% gross in Thailand. My house at Banwangtan was purchased for 915,000, and I had people wanting to rent it for 10,000 per month....that would be less than 8. The condo I almost bought three years ago at the ChiangRai Condotel for 415,000, would have rented for 5000 per month....less than 7. Would I pay 16X? or even 18X? Only if it were in a very special place that could not be duplicated. Example', Georgetown, Washington DC. A place that rents for 4000 per month, would probably sell pretty fast for 1.5 million. That's 30X. But you get an 18th Century Townhouse, in a neighborhood where George Washington surveyed the streets on the west side of Rock Creek, where there is far less crime than the other side. Land is worth a fortune, and there is a most finite supply of these homes. Also, there are fairly low height restrictions; so no 100 floor monsters going up around there. You could also justify it in Bangkok or Chiangmai if the land is worth a lot more than the structure. But, your big payday will come with the bull-dozer, after the foreign bar owner is told to beat it, or the food stalls are demolished, etc...Like canal st. in BKK. About a dozen bargirl bars in what were oretty much bamboo shacks. Now it's a 60+ floor Sofitel. I expect several of the owners were shocked and unprepared to vacate, but when you are paying cheap rent in a prime location; you need to look at the big, big picture or the unknown, unknown as Mr. Rumsfield would say. It's another reason the landlords won't do any maintenace at some of the hotels, they know the wreckiing ball is coming, like at the Miami Hotel in BKK. Land is worth 100 times more than the building, and in fact teh land would be worth more without the building on it, which is a fairly popular hotel.

[mesquite]

Buying or renting is in most cases not just a financial decision. Are you married, kids, what is your risk profile etc..a few percent here or there not does no make for a very persuasive argument.

From what I have seen a foreigner buying a house for a Thai wife up front destabilises the marriage, this is what I see happening:

1. She now has financial power over her foreigner husband.

2. She doesn't need him as much.

3. She is more likely to become unfaithful/stop having sex with the foreigner.

I wish these things were not true, but they are. My observation has been when a Thai wife/gf gets the upper hand, no matter in what manner, she will exploit that advantage.

Edited August 29, 2013 by mesquite

[Thighlander]

What popular games could be used to describe the Thai Economy. Dominoes? Musical Chairs? Or just good ole lighting one's farts with a butane lighter? A serious correction is due in the housing market, and it has been for several years, which is likely to make it worse. I would wait for those ratios to come down. 65,000 PSM in Chiang Rai is absolutely nuts.

[historyprof]

What popular games could be used to describe the Thai Economy. Dominoes? Musical Chairs? Or just good ole lighting one's farts with a butane lighter? A serious correction is due in the housing market, and it has been for several years, which is likely to make it worse. I would wait for those ratios to come down. 65,000 PSM in Chiang Rai is absolutely nuts.

As an alternative for those TV posters who did not drop out of school they might want to take a look at Land & Houses Pcl (LH), the Thailand’s biggest residential property developer by market value. This years graph as well as the 5 year one gives a pretty good idea of the condition of the housing market.

[Naam]

Buying or renting is in most cases not just a financial decision. Are you married, kids, what is your risk profile etc..a few percent here or there not does no make for a very persuasive argument.

From what I have seen a foreigner buying a house for a Thai wife up front destabilises the marriage, this is what I see happening:

1. She now has financial power over her foreigner husband.

2. She doesn't need him as much.

3. She is more likely to become unfaithful/stop having sex with the foreigner.

4. she pees in the noodle soup she prepares for him.

5. uses the horrible insulting F-word (Farang) when referring to him.

6. gets pregnant by having sex with the gardener.

[rayongchelsea]

The Gardner I presume is her Thai husband!!

[heybruce]

I'm sure that all the numbers are fascinating, but why would anyone who is not a Thai citizen bother with them?

Assume, for the sake of argument, that buying a house in Thailand is a wonderful investment opportunity. Do the property enthusiasts advise the non-citizens buy their spouse a house? Or do we hire a lawyer to perform some kind of legal trickery and hope to stay ahead of the Thai governments attempts to prevent us from owning property?

[Arkady]

If it floats, flies or f---s rent it.

Often the property in Thailand that farangs think they have bought ends up floating or flying away. Then they are f---ed.

[Arkady]

The Gardner I presume is her Thai husband!!

No, he doesn't do the gardening or perform any other type of work. He just sits in the grog shop with his buddies waiting for the next hand out of farang money from his wife.

[VegasVic]

What popular games could be used to describe the Thai Economy. Dominoes? Musical Chairs? Or just good ole lighting one's farts with a butane lighter? A serious correction is due in the housing market, and it has been for several years, which is likely to make it worse. I would wait for those ratios to come down. 65,000 PSM in Chiang Rai is absolutely nuts.

Musicals chairs sounds about right, or in a more appropriate context the situation is called "the greater fool theory" The Chinese real estate market is in an even more precarious situation than in Thailand, it will be interesting to see how this all plays out especially with the BRIC countries. India and Brazil have already begun to falter, and as the manufacturing sector cools in China it will be next. Russia may be the only BRIC left standing thanks to its vast natural resouces (in particular its petro resources), however Russia could get sucked into the inevitable middle east war and pay a dear price for backing Iran and Syria

[cloudhopper]

Renting, even a condo in LOS, is probably the best option for most people anywhere in the world, be they expat or native.

'Buying' was the only realistic option for my esoteric purposes, but i don't care about the financial/investment implications nor do I care what happens to it all after I die.