Enclosing a downstairs bedroom ... need advice please ...

[David48]

Enclosing a downstairs bedroom ... need advice please ...

Guys, I definitely need some advice here.

At the Farmhouse where I stay, it belongs to the parents. It's a typical wooden structure with wooden posts into the ground in the Bangkok mud. As the money as available, the dirt floor was concreted over and a large living and sleeping area was created.

I have the opportunity (gun placed to the Temple by my girlfriend) to make a room for us at the Farmhouse. Recently, she gave me a rather large concession, so this small build I'm OK with.

The build will happen so no relationship advice needed … thanks.

We desire a family and the room will be basically for mother and kid/s ... should/when that happens.

Being on the mud, the house has slowly sunk over the past 20 or 30 years since it was built. So for a scale, maybe 1 cm on one corner, 3 cm in another. I'm not here to address the sinking ... I'm only to construct a bedroom with a life of maybe 10 + years ... after that ... don't care.

Also, it’s not my land, nor my dwelling … never will be … so costs to a minimum.

Oh … the final nail in the coffin is that I will pay … but not be there when it’s built ... … thought you’d like that gem.

Below, in different posts, I’ll ask specific question and it might be easy for you to reply to the individual questions below.

A ) WALLS (external) – Block (which type) or steel posts and Sherawood or …

B ) WALL (internal) – Block (which type) or steel posts and some sort of board … maybe fibro sheet

C ) Roof Insulation

D ) Render?

E ) Internal wall lining

F ) Windows

G ) Roof insulation and lining

H ) Floor

I ) Internal window … how to fix

J ) Electrics

K ) Lights

L ) Door

M ) General

N ) Fan vent

O ) General

P ) Other … something we haven’t thought of

All advice received is appreciated in advance though ... remember, I not seeking advice on what you built at your place ... but advice on what you would suggest given my Opening Post.

OH ... the room has no plan for Air-conditioning, now, or in the future.

My budget to build is B90,000 ... but fully expect the goal of B120,000 to be easily obtained!

We have a builder already lined up. Friend of the family (yes, I know the horror stories) has built for the Farm Family before. Workmanship = OK B500 a day.

Trusting relationship with the both the gf and Farm Father ... though that will be tested over the next 6 months ...

I am a member over at cool thai house and might post something similar over there as it's a great building forum ... just that I know you guys over here much better and like the layout of this Forum much more and the navigation is far easier.

Oh, I do follow-up with my posts and will do my best to show what we did and the reasons why we chose what we chose.

.

[David48]

A ) WALLS (external) – Block (which type) or steel posts and Sherawood or …

So, because we are on Mud the weight of the walls are important.

The gf (MissFarmGirl here on the Forum) is no dummie and has also researched out a bit herself.

Came up with Q-Con, because it's light and will reduce the load ... but relatively expensive.

Also snakes are an issue and I know that she wants at least a few rows of blocks to the base of the construction if we then go and use Sherawood with Metal posts for studs.

Currently, the external cladding is that very thin wood which has deteriorated due to the weather and the termites.

Speaking of weather, the walls get virtually no direct sunlight due to generous roof overhand and the shady trees so the insulative effects of a cavity wall with an air gap and/or insulation is not a necessity. Remember, the room won't be air-conditioned.

So, if we go the block wall route ... Q-Con, standard Thai concrete block or other?

Has this been debated before? If so, the link please.

Q-Con is more expensive on a per sq² basis but requires less foundation. Does Q-Con have to be rendered?

Thai concrete block ... relatively, cheap as (inexpensive) ... but being cement, relatively heavy and requiring maybe extra footings.

Sherawood with Metal posts for studs.

I quite like the look. a tough brittle if knocked the wrong way.

Comes pre-painted in a nice variety of finishes.

Being an external skin only, will need an interior lining, this a higher cost.

http://www.sherasolution.com/th/trader/products/application/wall-application/series/30118/

Other ... ???

Remember, I not seeking advice on what you built at your place ... but advice on what you would suggest given my Opening Post.

Edited August 26, 2013 by David48

[cooked]

If weight is a concern you might want to dig foundations around the edge of the concrete floor. Once you have a row of bricks (or what ever) in place, any competent builder should be able to relevel the floor with cement mortar. I myself am dithering between a double wall with concrete blocks (cheaper) or Q-blocks. I have worked with these before and I would definitely ensure that the builder had used them before, properly, I have heard of builders throwing the special cement way and using cement, which obviates the insulation value of the blocks.If the insulation isn't important to you, then just use standard 8cm concrete blocks, you can always insulate from inside later on. Redering: I just made very wet sand/cement mix and used it like paint, still holding.

Roof insulation: a price question also but well worth doing, we have A/C and I am still thinking about insulating the roof.

I don't like the Shera stuff and is rather expensive.

Don't forget the drainage pipes from the toilet direction cesspit and drainage pipes for water likely to contain chemicals that would disturb the digestion of stuff in the cesspit.

[David48]

B ) WALL (internal) – Block (which type) or steel posts and some sort of board … maybe fibro sheet

So, we will have to build an internal wall ... maybe 7 or 8 metres long from memory.

Most likely no window but an entry door.

Don't really fancy digging up or maybe even allowed to cut the existing slab for footings.

That part of the existing structure seems to be the most stable so the options are block (of one sort or the other) or metal studs with what lining? Don't really want gyrock ... dry wall I think the Yanks call it.

Will a 3 ply sheet be eaten by termites?

What about a laminate of some description?

Other ideas?

.

.

[David48]

C ) Roof Insulation

Definitely not using the spray on stuff.

You can see the roof tiles from below ...

So the idea is to remove the existing wooden batons and replace then with steel ones and then use insulation batts.

The use of the steel batons is so that they won't get eaten by the termites.

Most likely position and hold the batt insulation in-place with chicken wire, or that really cheap black shade cloth or the like.

For some reason, there are precious few graphic examples to demonstrate ... this one is for underfloor insulation, so essentially the same principle.

Also, I'm thinking of laying the insulation, foil side up (towards the roof tile) to both reflect the heat and to protect the insulation in-case some leak occurs.

Thoughts?

.

[David48]

D ) Render ... if we use block and not the Sherawood.

To render or not to save money?

Paint the outside?

Currently the outside looks like this ...

Obviously all that shitty timber is going.

So not the highest standard to maintain ...

That is the actual outside wall of the Farmhouse where we plan to enclose.

.

[David48]

E ) Internal wall lining

Sort of a sister question to Part B )

If we go with steel posts and Sherawood ... what type of interior lining to use?

The gf mentioned Gyprock ... ... I recoiled at the idea.

I have at home, great stuff to work with ... but unstable footings (maybe), finishing issues, termites eating the paper (I've read) ... but if there are good reasons to use the stuff ... I have an open mind.

But if not Gyprock ... then what dry wall lining to use?

Suggestions?

.

[David48]

H ) Floor

Now the current floor is that standard smooth/polished concrete ... but it has a definite sway like a drunken sailor.

I'm punting for lino or linoleum ... just like in the OP photo ... but, of course, one sheet for the floor. Things are less likely to break if dropped, easy to clean, easy to upgrade if we win Lotto.

... but she who will be obeyed whose thoughts are considered in the build would love the fancy tile, like you see in the nicer hotels.

You know the ones, they are a lightish brown colour, maybe 500 x 500 and if you don't by the seconds and actually buy the retail quality, when laid, almost have no grout in the joins.

I'm yet to be convinced ...

cooked's idea above about leveling the floor might be an acceptable compromise.

Do you have to etch/chip the existing smooth concrete when you apply a skim layer?

.

[krisb]

Are those roof tiles asbestos? Looks like it.

The cheapest and lightest way assuming not building load bearing walls, so your just building partitions is either timber or metal stud walls, bags of insulation, gyprock inside, cement sheet outside for walls which can get rendered or bagged finish. The ceiling use suspended Rondo (Google it) then bags of insulation and gyprock or alternatively use t bar grid ceiling which looks like those ceilings you see in offices with those square removable ceiling tiles.

[krisb]

That pic of the outside farm wall just looks like it needs a good sand and fresh coat of paint?

[krisb]

To hold the ceiling insulation in use a ball of string. The insulation should sit inside the frame, not bulging out. Ceiling batons should be 600mm apart and whatever they get fixed to should be 1200 apart. Make sure if you use gyprock you use glue. Or after time the screws will pop and its gonna come down.

[David48]

That pic of the outside farm wall just looks like it needs a good sand and fresh coat of paint?

Humm ...

A touch past it me thinks.

Also, I'm happy to sacrafice some of the boards ro replace those missing in other parts of the building.

We had a piece, the length of my arm, blow off the bedroom wall where I sleep last week.

Plus the lassie wants the peace of mind of no snakes ... ever ... I can understand that.

[David48]

I ) Internal window … how to fix?

Currently there is an internal opening between the existing wall and built bedroom and where we wish to build.

There is no glass, just broken flywire/insect screen and the security grill.

That wall will become an internal wall for the new bedroom once repaired there will no window there ... it's the parents bedroom ...

Do we just infill and make a feature of it?

Resheet the whole wall?

Suggestions?

.

[cooked]

That's some nice security grill you have there, you should be able to remove it and use it elsewhere? Looks like you can turn the thing into a cupboard.

I am mostly worried that you won't be present when the work is being done...

[David48]

J ) Electrics

Is it worth putting a separate earth spike in the ground and connecting it to the Earthing circuit.

I'm used to the Australian system where they ground the neutral bar. Is that how it is in Thailand ... or there is there no set method?

Must admit, I'm a bit concerned as I was leaning on the fridge in the photo and standing on the wet towel on the concrete floor and got a real good buzz as my hand slid over the frame of the metal fridge where the paint had peeled.

The Thai gf said ... don't worry ... just unplug and turn the plug 180^o and it will be fine ...

She did, and I haven't had a zap since ... though I'm much more cautious now.

What does worry me is that the GPO / PowerPoint in question is one in the area where we enclose, thus part of the circuit.

As you can see, no earth provision.

The fridge has no earth, thus one presumes that it should be 'double insulated' ... well, in Australia it would be ... how about Thailand? ... ... or not?

What freaked me the other night was when were sitting there and the whole power circuit blew. not a worry, in it's self, though what caused it surprised me as I'd never seen it before.

The termites had chewn through the cable.

Sure, I've seen rats and possums etc do that ... but termites ...

Is it a common problem in Thailand? How to prevent that?

.

Edited August 26, 2013 by David48

[krisb]

I'd probably take that window out and put studs in and sheet across it. Your right, that outside walls kaput.

[krisb]

For 200k you could always build a new house.

[David48]

For 200k you could always build a new house.

Not an option at the Farm as there is not the spot available that I want.

I reckon the first experience will test my mettle for later if I do want to go the whole hog.

This is what is sitting on the best position on the Farm ...

Belongs to the Aunt.

The Farmhouse itself isn't that bad.

200K always becomes more ... and that's more the budget allows for at the moment as I have a few other expenses due in the next year.

But your thinking is correct in the longer term ... that's why I'm happy if the bedroom makes it to 10 years.

.

[David48]

K ) Lights

What's the current thoughts on lighting?

In all of the cheaper Thai builds I've seen, the light fittings really let the place down.

Currently, the Farm uses either 2' -20 watt fluros ... or the 4' ones ... very sparingly.

.

[David48]

L ) Door

What do you guys use for an internal door?

The plastic doors are used mainly on Bathrooms, so you you use a hollow care wooden door?

What about the door frame? Wood or metal?

.

[cooked]

200k? Wow that's plenty. We put in a concrete floor, new roof and walls, rather basic bathroom and kitchen (tiled) for around 20 000.- Windows and doors as well as some masonry and more tiling work still to be done but definitely live-in-able, as it is.

We have wooden doors and frames in place since 10 years and they are fine.

[David48]

F ) Windows

humm ... seems that I have been too long in Thailand and have forgotten my alphabet!

Most likely go for the Aluminum Framed style.

Insect screens, of course.

Trying to decide between the standard sliding window ...

Or the Opening style which 'catches' the breeze.

I figure the 'Opening style' are more expensive.

Maybe a combination of them both.

.

[krisb]

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[krisb]

I like windows fly screens can be attached.

[Daffy D]

C ) Roof Insulation

Definitely not using the spray on stuff.

You can see the roof tiles from below ...

P8200023LR.JPG

So the idea is to remove the existing wooden batons and replace then with steel ones and then use insulation batts.

The use of the steel batons is so that they won't get eaten by the termites.

Most likely position and hold the batt insulation in-place with chicken wire, or that really cheap black shade cloth or the like.

For some reason, there are precious few graphic examples to demonstrate ... this one is for underfloor insulation, so essentially the same principle.

Also, I'm thinking of laying the insulation, foil side up (towards the roof tile) to both reflect the heat and to protect the insulation in-case some leak occurs.

Thoughts?

.

Working upside down with chicken wire is EXTREMELY difficult. It curls up and stretches in all directions, also will not look very pretty if you don't have a ceiling.

We used insulated metal roof sheets on an extension which looks alright from the inside. Though it does tend to be a bit noisier in the rain.

I found the easiest way to attach chicken wire to wooden battens was with a heavy duty stapler.

Good luck with you project.

[krisb]

So have you planned your plan of attack yet David?

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[krisb]

Not sure if I understand post 26, why would you be attaching chicken wire to a ceiling frame? There's not 1 reason I can think of to do so.

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[krisb]

Have a look at this sit David. These products or be it very similar are widely available in Thailand. Cheap and easily installed.

Www.rondo.com.au.

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[wayned]

If you want to lay tile, you need to find someone that really knows what he is doing. He can come in and "float" the entire room with 1-2cm of concrete, sand but no gravel to get it level and then lay the tile on that base using boards with nails to support himself. My entire house was done this way by a local farmer! He had worked ten years in Bangkok laying tile in housing developments and had just returned home to take care of the farm when his father died. I was really lucky!

[IMHO]

I haven't read all of the posts, but from what I've seen you've got some ideas that are waaayyyyy over capitalizing and/or just not compatible with the existing construction.

Here's what I'd do:

Shera/Conwood/Smartwood cladding for the external walls. Lay down some foil paper before you put them on for some extra insulation.

Gypsum for interior walls. Foiled backed gypsum for a suspended ceiling.

Smartboard soffits the help keep wildlife out.

Cheapest windows you can find (prefab aluminium?)

Cheap 30x30cm floor tiles, and a tiler that knows how to use a water level to get the floor level again.

Add some 30 Baht down lights with 60 Baht CFL's, a power plug or two, and a 1500 Baht 4-circuit consumer unit with EBCO built in.

I'd budget 15-20K based on what I can see in the pic.

Everything else, forget it - there's just not point spending money on further insulation, blocks, yadda yadda for a sinking, wooden framed house.

Edited October 12, 2013 by IMHO