Correct translation of English names to Thai language

[mikemac]

We went to the hospital today, wife is about to have a baby, and we were asked about naming the baby. The staff wanted to know if baby would have English language name or Thai name on the paperwork. If English name they would like translation to Thai as well, said it was important to be 100% correct as it will be used in baby's dual passports, official documents etc.

I already know how to spell my surname in Thai as it is on my Thai drivers license and marriage certificate, but the baby's christian names will be Patrick Frances and I doubt my Thai language skills are good enough to get it right.

Anyone know where I can find translation of English names to Thai, or failing that a good translation office in Chiang Mai ?

[Mole]

There seems to be several ways to write Patrick and Frances in Thai depending on your pronunciation.

For example, searching on the Thai wikipedia showed these results for people called Patrick

Patrick Swayze แพทริก

Patrick Süskind พัททริค

Patrick Balfour, 3rd Baron Kinross แพ็ททริค

Patrick Vieira ปาทริค

For Frances:

Frances Yip ฟรานซิส

Frances Eliza Hodgson Burnett ฟรานเซส

Frances Shand Kydd ฟรานเซส

My recommendation:

Patrick แพทริก

Frances ฟรานเซส

[rgs2001uk]

Some kind soul posted this link a while back,

http://thailand-uk.com/names/Letter_S.html

Patrick แพทริก

Frances ฟรานเซส

Francis ฟรานซิส

The Mole spot on as always.

[mikemac]

Thanks to you both,

I showed my wife your recommendation, mole, and she seems to agree with you.

And thanks for the link rgs2001uk.

[partington]

This is interesting: I thought ส at the end of a word was pronounced as a "t".

So wouldn't Thais pronounce this version of Frances ฟรานเซส as "Fransayt"??

(Probably this is as close as you can get though, given the language!)

[Mole]

Pronounciation, yes, they'd pronounce it with a t in the ending.

But names are usually transcribed according to their spelling.

[partington]

Pronounciation, yes, they'd pronounce it with a t in the ending.

But names are usually transcribed according to their spelling.

Yes, makes sense. There's probably no way of writing a word in Thai script to make it have an "s" sound at the end, I'm guessing?

[Mole]

This is because in Thai language it's not possible to pronounce an s sound at the end of words.

So even if you wrote it, it's not possible to pronounce in Thai.

[Trembly]

แพทริค would be more faithful - although I would be inclined to add an ข์ on the end (silent extra 'K' sound . . . when comparing softness / hardness of the ค and ข the former is more likely to be a C and the latter a K) making it แพทริคข์.

So :

แพทริก = Patrig
แพทริค = Patric

แพทริคข์ = Patrick

The other way of spelling Frances would be ฟรานซี่ส, using the 'ee' vowel instead of the 'eh' vowel. I'd say that this is probably closer (although there's not much in it) to how the name is commonly pronounced in English.

[Trembly]

This is because in Thai language it's not possible to pronounce an s sound at the end of words.

So even if you wrote it, it's not possible to pronounce in Thai.

It is.

Some extraordinarily conscientious speakers do sometimes make the effort to pronounce the terminal S when they occur in foreign words. I include some Sanskrit derived standard Thai words in that grouping, but I shan't go into which words sound right and which words simply sound wrong with the terminal S activated because it's a bit irregular.

These people are quite rare though.

[General Topiks]

This is because in Thai language it's not possible to pronounce an s sound at the end of words.

So even if you wrote it, it's not possible to pronounce in Thai.

yet to find a 7-11 checkout chick who cant say แฮม and ชีส

[partington]

Anyone who calls a girl "chick" has yet to find their way out of the 20th century. Are you Austin Powers??

[General Topiks]

google translate for what its worth

patrick แพทริค
frances ฟรานเซส
francis ฟรานซิส

i'd go for this one for patrick.

but think it poor form that he doesnt even get any mention of being thai in his name.

patrick somchai

or patrick frances somchai

[General Topiks]

Anyone who calls a girl "chick" has yet to find their way out of the 20th century. Are you Austin Powers??

must be real fun to have a conversation with you

[OldChinaHam]

Anyone who calls a girl "chick" has yet to find their way out of the 20th century. Are you Austin Powers??

must be real fun to have a conversation with you

Nothing wrong with chicks,

If they are brainy.

[Mole]

Actually, Patrick would be written like this แพทริคก์ if you insist in using karan.

But I actually think "ck" is considered like a single consonant sound, like "ch" or "sh".

That's why it's not written with karan.

If you google

"แพทริก" = 3 240 000

"แพทริค" = 336 000

So you'll see what is most commonly used.

However, it's up to you which Thai spelling to use, because I suppose แพทริค is also equally correct.

Well, I can think of lots of words where the average farang chap would struggle. Especially any words beginning with ง seems to be a huge challenge.

For example I have yet to hear a farang manage to pronounce the full moon party island Phangan พะงัน correctly.

Problem with Thai people trying to pronounce the final S sound usually all get it somewhat wrong. Either the stress is wrong or the duration or both making it sound weird and not quite right.

I was also going to mention about certain Sanskrit words of origin may also include final ส (but I can't think of any at the moment). However, they are all pronounced as ท sound when read in Thai.

You can also read it in "Sanskritized" (although it's still a peculiar Thai Sanskrit way of pronounciation), but any final ส would be read as "sa" since I believe also in proper Sanskrit language, there's no final s sound, only "sa".

Technically, there is a way to force a pronounciation of final ส, but only by writing as "Sanskri/Pali orthography".

You can use a so called "phinto" พินทุ symbol which is a dot under the final consonant to indicate that the implied "a" vowel should not be pronounced.

So in theory you can write สฺ to force a final s pronounciation. But I don't even think this exist in Sanskrit or Pali.

There's a similar situation in Spanish where initial "st" is pronounced as "est" and final "m" as "mo".

[Trembly]

ก is unequivocally a G. The only time a K is ever pronounced like a G in English is when it is preceded by an S . . .

If you're going to follow the incorrect Thai lead (according to Google) on how to spell English language names and words then you may as well start saying satrawbur-rie instead of strawberry or maenchan instead of mansion.

[Trembly]

Actually, Patrick would be written like this แพทริคก์ if you insist in using karan.

But I actually think "ck" is considered like a single consonant sound, like "ch" or "sh".

That's why it's not written with karan.

If you google

"แพทริก" = 3 240 000

"แพทริค" = 336 000

So you'll see what is most commonly used.

However, it's up to you which Thai spelling to use, because I suppose แพทริค is also equally correct.

Well, I can think of lots of words where the average farang chap would struggle. Especially any words beginning with ง seems to be a huge challenge.

For example I have yet to hear a farang manage to pronounce the full moon party island Phangan พะงัน correctly.

Problem with Thai people trying to pronounce the final S sound usually all get it somewhat wrong. Either the stress is wrong or the duration or both making it sound weird and not quite right.

I was also going to mention about certain Sanskrit words of origin may also include final ส (but I can't think of any at the moment). However, they are all pronounced as ท sound when read in Thai.

You can also read it in "Sanskritized" (although it's still a peculiar Thai Sanskrit way of pronounciation), but any final ส would be read as "sa" since I believe also in proper Sanskrit language, there's no final s sound, only "sa".

Technically, there is a way to force a pronounciation of final ส, but only by writing as "Sanskri/Pali orthography".

You can use a so called "phinto" พินทุ symbol which is a dot under the final consonant to indicate that the implied "a" vowel should not be pronounced.

So in theory you can write สฺ to force a final s pronounciation. But I don't even think this exist in Sanskrit or Pali.

There's a similar situation in Spanish where initial "st" is pronounced as "est" and final "m" as "mo".

Notwithstanding that the majority of people don't make the effort or seem to have cotton ears, it is nevertheless possible for the Thai tongue to pronounce the terminal S, just as some farang are perfectly capable of pronouncing Phangan; all that is required is that they pay attention to what they're saying and therefore what they're hearing.

[Mole]

It's actually YOU who is following the "incorrect" method of transcription.

According to the official Royal Thai General System of Transcription ก is transcribed as k

This is used on all place names for example. Kanchanaburi

Also, the "sh" sound does not exist in Thai, so the closest is "ch". That's why Thai's pronounce any word with "sh" as "ch".

Also, proper st is unpronounceable in Thai similar to a Spaniard would have difficulty saying st. Except they do it different ways, Thais add an a after s while Spanish adds e in front.

Thai st = sat...

Spanish st = est...

Of course there's people who are capable of pronouncing things correctly.

As I'm pretty sure there must be some 7-11 chicks out there who's able to say both Ham and Cheese correctly.

[Trembly]

RTGST is a poor reference, conceived apparently by bungling courtiers and throne-struck academics and is widely regarded as a nuisance by the earnest student of English in Thailand.

My point regarding "strawberry" and "mansion" is that when you are in the position of being a native speaker of the language that a word originates from, it would be silly to defer to the patently incorrect renditions by the non-native speaker, especially in something like a name. By all means allow them to mangle it in every day speech as you can't really control another person's linguistic prowess or hearing ability, but to adopt a mistake in the foreign spelling of your own name (or your offspring's name) just because it happens to be a common mistake in the foreign place is beyond silly. It's not as if no closer spelling is possible. What do you think the karan is for?

As far as I'm aware Patrick is not a common Thai name. In other words, Thai culture has yet to take 'ownership' of the name Patrick in the way that it has taken ownership of Somchai or Vivek (also common in India but rendered "Wiweg" in Thai) and therefore no standard Thai version of Patrick exists for anyone to defer to, in which case I believe it behooves the owner of the name to adopt the most faithful rendition of their name that is possible in the local language (both verbally and in written form) when necessary.

It would be a different matter in Ireland, where the culture also has 'ownership' of the name and where it could therefore make sense to defer to the Irish spelling of the name (especially if you are going to insist on pronouncing it the Irish way too).

[Trembly]

It's actually YOU who is following the "incorrect" method of transcription.

According to the official Royal Thai General System of Transcription ก is transcribed as k

This is used on all place names for example. Kanchanaburi

Also, the "sh" sound does not exist in Thai, so the closest is "ch". That's why Thai's pronounce any word with "sh" as "ch".

Also, proper st is unpronounceable in Thai similar to a Spaniard would have difficulty saying st. Except they do it different ways, Thais add an a after s while Spanish adds e in front.

Thai st = sat...

Spanish st = est...

Of course there's people who are capable of pronouncing things correctly.

As I'm pretty sure there must be some 7-11 chicks out there who's able to say both Ham and Cheese correctly.

Thank you.

This is because in Thai language it's not possible to pronounce an s sound at the end of words.

So even if you wrote it, it's not possible to pronounce in Thai.

[Mole]

RTGST is a standard nevertheless.

In one hand you are bashing how majority of Thais seems to spell English names wrong, while on the other hand, you say disregard the RTGST and write the name according to what you consider sounds more proper instead...

So, if one would do it your way, one would actually contribute to more "non standard" renditions of names. Who knows, there may be somebody else out there who disagree with you and think it should be spelled yet another way.

Also, regarding Patrick, it would be wrong to use a karan at the end since this "ck" is considered a single consonant sound. It could be either ค or ก depending on English dialect I suppose.

Just think of other words ending with ck such as "rick check speck heck luck <removed> lock lack block".

Now seriously, does all those words sound as if it ends with a "g" sound at the end rather than a "k"??

So according to English pronunciation, ch at the end sounds more like a "g" ก to me.

In other words แพทริก would be the best choice if you're English.

But if you're German for example, then the final ck is actually pronounced like ค or English k.

So I guess my first examples from wikipedia is quite correct after all.

If you're German, then it'd be พัททริค because the "a" sounds more like ะ than แ in German.

French, it's ปาทริค because that "a" would be a long "a" vowel.

Alternatively, for British pronunciation, Patrick would actually sound more like พัทริก because in British the "a" tends to sound more like า rather than แ which is more American.

For example "can" in British would sound more like คาน and American แคน

So, my recommendation would still be แพทริก and I have changed my mind about แพทริค (unless you're German or your dialect does actually pronounce ck at the end as k)

The overwhelming majority seems to also have settled for แพทริก

[Mole]

I think this issue may not be as straightforward.

RTGST technically deals with transcribing Thai into Latin characters. Personally I am also in the camp that RTGST needs to be modified. For example จ and ช are both transcribed to "ch" while they're obviously two completely different sounds which exist separately in many other languages as well. Although different languages use different ways to differentiate between these two sounds, IMO RTGST should also find a way to differentiate them. It does not necessary needs to be based on any orthography. Look at Chinese Pin Yin for example where "zh" are certainly not pronounced that way in most other languages. However, I don't think RTGST should use "zh" for จ because it's such an obscure letter combination unpronounceable for many and also many European languages doesn't even use the character "z" except for loan words, so most would have difficulty in guessing how to pronounce "zh" correctly. I would actually prefer simply "j" be used for จ, despite this sound is normally pronounced as ย in many other languages, but because of English, most people who see a foreign word which begins with j would automatically pronounce it the English way.

"J" is also currently not used at all in RTGST at the moment, so it will not create any conflicts.

It's also already widely used to transcribe lots of names with จ so it'd be easy to adapt.

When transcribing Latin characters into Thai, there are really no fixed rules. Fortunately, all Thai characters have one fixed way of pronunciation, so you merely have to transcribe it according to how you would pronounce it in your own language.

For example, Ken would be transcribed to เก็น if we would use RTGST which is of course not correct. Most languages would pronounce Ken as เค็น.

For certain sounds however, Thais seems to have a peculiar way to transcribe.

For example Peter is written and pronounced as ปีเตอร์ while it's also perfectly possible for a Thai to pronounce it more "correctly" as พีเตอร์

But according to French and Spanish orthography for example, "P" is indeed pronounced as ป. So for French and Spanish names which starts with "P", it would be correct to transcribe it to ป in Thai.

While other names which includes the "sh" sound will never be pronounced correctly in Thai because of the lack of this exact sound so one simply chose ช as substitute.

ฌ is also used for example Sean ฌอน

[Richard W]

Yes, makes sense. There's probably no way of writing a word in Thai script to make it have an "s" sound at the end, I'm guessing?

Would so so (ซ) work? There's no reason for a P/S or native SE Asian word to end in ซ, so it would invite the pronunciation /s/, which seems quite frequent for ก๊าซ.

[Mole]

I always hear people say ก๊าท and แก๊ท

[Dag Ekeberg]

I always hear people say ก๊าท and แก๊ท

Appreciate your insights. I hear ก๊าท on TV newscasts but แก๊ท among the general public…

[Mole]

Actually, there's different meanings.

For LPG, it's แก๊ท while CNG is ก๊าท.