Entering The Republic of Ireland on a UK Visa

[tullynagardy]

Heres a little background to this one. My wife has indefinite leave to remain in the UK via our marriage visa, we currently live in Belfast Northern Ireland.

We are soon planning a trip back to Thailand and seek to go via Dublin in the Republic of Ireland (rather than London) as its handier and cheaper.

Advice on the internet is conflicting, as Im sure will be the answers here, but Im keen to see if anyone has any direct experience.

Heres the reason its a tricky one. On the one hand see here - http://www.embassyofireland.co.uk/home/index.aspx?id=75477#FAQ4

I live in Northern Ireland: do I need a visa to travel to Ireland?

Yes. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom and you will need an Irish visa in order to cross the border into Ireland. Check the “Who needs a visa “page of this website to see if you are a national of a country that is visa-required.

On the other hand see here, An EU directive which over rides what is said above. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2004/38/EC_on_the_right_to_move_and_reside_freely

The Directive 2004/38/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 29 April 2004 on the right of citizens of the Union and their family members to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States

From reading other immigration boards Im fairly confident entering Ireland (already done it tbh) and then getting on the plane would be doable, with a little knowledge to make the border guards pipe down. My biggest worry is the return leg, where my wife will be showing a UK visa but boarding a plane to a city not in the UK. Thai border guards Im less hopeful of!

If anyone has direct experience Id love to hear it.

[7by7]

As both the UK and the RoI are members of the EEA the freedom of movement regulations apply.

Which means that as she is travelling with you, her spouse and an EEA citizen, she does not need a visa to enter the RoI; providing she can prove to Irish immigration that she is your spouse, you are an EEA citizen and she is travelling with you. So take your marriage certificate with you and if you married in Thailand a certified translation.

However, when checking in to leave Thailand, the airline staff may not be aware of this regulation and so refuse to carry her as she doesn't have an Irish visa of some sort.

So I would recommend obtaining one, if possible. As she is the spouse of an EEA citizen and will be travelling with you it should be easy to obtain and free. I assume there is an Irish consulate in Belfast to which she can apply.

Make sure it is multi entry and wont expire before you return from Thailand.

She wont have any problems with Thai immigration; they wont care where she is going or whether or not she has a visa for her destination; just that she has not been in Thailand illegally; which as a Thai citizen she wont have been, of course.

Edited September 10, 2013 by 7by7

[tullynagardy]

Thanks for the reply, helpful.

The only visa i could get her (I think) is a visitors one which although not expensive is as challenging as the UK one and time consuming. The amount of time and effort to do it would deter me to be honest.

Going over the border there is no Irish immigration, the first obstacle would come at the airport from officials there or maybe the airline would not carry a passenger that (supposedly) doesn`t have a visa for the country they are departing. The airline responses to me havnt reassured me either.

Finally have you any idea why the Irish government can put that on their website which its in breach on a European directive?

[7by7]

As she is the spouse of an EEA national and travelling with her spouse she does not have to apply for an Irish visit visa; EEA/EU regulations say she is entitled to whatever the Irish equivalent of the UK's EEA family permit is.

I, too, cannot find anything about this on the Irish embassy's website; I suggest that you speak to them.

[Jay Sata]

Which airline are you flying with from Dublin to Thailand?

I'm not aware of any direct flights.

Or are you routing via AMS?

[Jay Sata]

As she is the spouse of an EEA national and travelling with her spouse she does not have to apply for an Irish visit visa; EEA/EU regulations say she is entitled to whatever the Irish equivalent of the UK's EEA family permit is.

I, too, cannot find anything about this on the Irish embassy's website; I suggest that you speak to them.

As you don't know why give wrong advice. The Irish Embassy is in London and a long way from Belfast.

The OP is in Belfast which has no consulate or embassy for Eire.

Speaking as a citizen of the Irish Republic let me put you on the right track.

If you are coming from AMS to Dublin you may have problems depending on where you are using KLM or a low cost carrier.

I guess you are using Aer Lingus to AMS and then China Airlines to BKK. You could phone Aer Lingus in Dublin.

You need to contact INIS which is the Irish government visa service http://www.inis.gov.ie/

13/14 Burgh Key,

Dublin2.

Phone no from Belfast is 00 353 1616 7700

Which is in Dublin and on the same island as the OP.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Jay Sata

[irlguy1]

As an Irish man with a Thai wife living in Ireland I can only say what I know to be my situation.

If my wife wants to travel to the Uk with me she has to get a visa from the British embassy before we fly. If she wants to fly to Thailand and return to Ireland she needs a multi entry visa from Irish embassy before we leave. As far as I know your wife will need a visa from Irish embassy in Dublin before she can land here although if you stay in the airport and never actually set foot outside airport then you may get away without one. As precious poster said though to be safe call the INIS

[I Like Thai]

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/coming_to_live_in_ireland/visa_requirements_for_entering_ireland.html

Who else can land in Ireland without a visa?

You do not need a visa to land in Ireland if:

You hold a valid travel document issued by one of the following countries in accordance with Article 28 of the Geneva Convention: Belgium, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, or Switzerland.

You hold either a valid residence card 4 EU FAM or a valid permanent residence card 4 EU FAM issued by the Garda National Immigration Bureau under the European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006 (SI 656 of 2006).

You are a family member of an EU citizen and you hold a document called "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" as referred to in article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC (pdf).

Edited September 11, 2013 by I Like Thai

[7by7]

Unfortunately, I Like Thai, the OP's wife has Indefinite Leave to Remain in the UK, which is not considered a residence card under the directive.

Sata, as the OP lives in Northern Ireland, I am sure he knows whether or not there is an Irish consulate in Belfast or not; I don't, which is why I said that I assumed.

[Jay Sata]

There is no Irish consulate in Belfast 7by7 and if you knew how the border between the six counties and the Republic works works you'd have a

better appreciation of the relaxed travel arrangements that exist on the island.

Sorry to correct you Irlguy but there is no Irish Embassy in Dublin nor is there a British Embassy in London.

It's INIS who handle visa's.

As the OP lives in Northern Ireland, I am sure he knows whether or not there is an Irish consulate in Belfast or not; I don't, which is why I said that I assumed.

If I had assumed you'd shoot me down in flames. You don't know the answers here so forget google and let the OP consider my advice which is correct.

[ryro88]

You'll be fine, I live in the north and fly to thailand via Dublin all the time.

[7by7]

The OP is a British citizen and so wont have any problems.

It is his Thai wife he is concerned about.

What is your nationality, and if not British what is your immigration status in the UK?

[7by7]

Deleted; duplicate.

Bloody forum software playing up again!

Edited September 12, 2013 by 7by7

[7by7]

The UK immigration category Indefinite Leave to Remain is not considered a "Residence card of a family member of a Union citizen" as referred to in article 10 of Directive 2004/38/EC. Don't know why; it seems silly to me.

Your wife could only get a residence card as per the directive had she entered the UK as the family member of an EEA national, not as the spouse of a British one.

However, your wife is a family member of a Union, and EEA, citizen and so what I said before about her freedom of movement rights still applies. As long as she can show that she is your wife and is travelling with, or to join, you then technically she does not need any form of visa to enter another EEA state; which includes the RoI.

But, not all immigration officers are aware of this, though I suspect that those at Dublin would be, and very few airline check in staff are.

As airlines are subject to hefty fines if they knowingly carry a passenger who does not have the correct entry clearance for their destination, she may therefore have difficulties when checking in to leave Thailand on your return.

Hence my advice to obtain the Irish equivalent of the UK's EEA family permit.

You presumably know whether or not there is a consulate in Belfast where you can do so or whether she'll have to apply to London.

I doubt that she can apply to the INIS in Dublin directly. How can one apply for permission to enter any country inside that country when you can't enter the country until you have that permission?

Their website says that after completing the online form you then have to submit your passport and supporting documents to the appropriate embassy or consulate; to which you'll be directed.

Edited September 12, 2013 by 7by7

[Jay Sata]

I doubt that she can apply to the INIS in Dublin directly. How can one apply for permission to enter any country inside that country when you can't enter the country until you have that permission?

Northern Ireland and the Republic have been separate since 1921.

He is in the UK and INIS is in another European country called the Republic of Ireland.

If he applies via London it will be forwarded to Dublin.

There is no more an Irish consul in Belfast than there is in Cardiff.

[sustento]

I doubt that she can apply to the INIS in Dublin directly. How can one apply for permission to enter any country inside that country when you can't enter the country until you have that permission?

Northern Ireland and the Republic have been separate since 1921.

He is in the UK and INIS is in another European country called the Republic of Ireland.

If he applies via London it will be forwarded to Dublin.

There is no more an Irish consul in Belfast than there is in Cardiff.

The Irish Consul in Cardiff:

http://embassy-finder.com/ireland_in_cardiff_united-kingdom

[tullynagardy]

Hence my advice to obtain the Irish equivalent of the UK's EEA family permit.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110915060029AAsLELk

Do you agree with the 2 answers below this one? Seems similar situation

[7by7]

Hence my advice to obtain the Irish equivalent of the UK's EEA family permit.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110915060029AAsLELk

Do you agree with the 2 answers below this one? Seems similar situation

The first answer is sort of correct; but the second is out of date. If you notice, those answers are at least 2 years old.

The regulations have changed since then and it is now no longer possible for a person with two EEA nationalities to use one of them to obtain entry into the other country for their non EEA family members using the freedom of movement regulations. Unless they, the dual national, have at some time lived in that other country.

So, for example, a person with dual Irish/British nationality can no longer obtain an EEA family permit for their spouse to live in the UK with them but will have to apply via the UK's immigration rules. Unless they have at some time in their life lived in the Republic.

However, as far as I am aware, this does not effect your rights to travel freely within the EEA, including the RoI, and your wife to accompany you. It would only apply if you wanted to move to the RoI to live.

Are you a dual national? Do you have an Irish passport?

[tullynagardy]

Hence my advice to obtain the Irish equivalent of the UK's EEA family permit.

http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=?

Do you agree with the 2 answers below this one? Seems similar situation

The first answer is sort of correct; but the second is out of date. If you notice, those answers are at least 2 years old.

The regulations have changed since then and it is now no longer possible for a person with two EEA nationalities to use one of them to obtain entry into the other country for their non EEA family members using the freedom of movement regulations. Unless they, the dual national, have at some time lived in that other country.

So, for example, a person with dual Irish/British nationality can no longer obtain an EEA family permit for their spouse to live in the UK with them but will have to apply via the UK's immigration rules. Unless they have at some time in their life lived in the Republic.

However, as far as I am aware, this does not effect your rights to travel freely within the EEA, including the RoI, and your wife to accompany you. It would only apply if you wanted to move to the RoI to live.

Are you a dual national? Do you have an Irish passport?

By Virtue of birth I am an Irish national and a passport easily attained. (dont currently have one)

As I have never worked in the Republic for 3 months does this not make getting one impossible?

Are you therefore saying I can qualify for the "(EU spouse) needs to have LIVED and WORKED for at least 3-6 months in a different country than their nationality" rule by saying i work in the UK but am in fact Irish?

All so confusing. For a family of 4 the flights are £700 cheaper which is not to be sniffed at!

[7by7]

This is getting complicated; more complicated than is necessary.

Why bother with getting an Irish passport? As you live and work in the UK she could use the Surinder Singh route, which you describe, to enter the Republic even though the wife of an Irish citizen; but she already has the right as the wife of a British citizen!

[I Like Thai]

If your wife has lived with you on the Island of Ireland for 3 years or more, she can apply for Irish Citizenship through naturalisation

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_marriage.html

[tullynagardy]

This is getting complicated; more complicated than is necessary.

Why bother with getting an Irish passport? As you live and work in the UK she could use the Surinder Singh route, which you describe, to enter the Republic even though the wife of an Irish citizen; but she already has the right as the wife of a British citizen!

The Surinder Singh route requires me to live in the Republic for 3 months, thats the problem. Correct me if Im wrong?

Now I know we have the right already but we both agree the issues that we will face. You suggessted getting the EEA family permit thing but that seems impossible unless I move down south for 3 months!

[7by7]

An EEA family permit is for non EEA family members of EEA nationals who are exercising a treaty right in the UK. I used it as an example.

You are British and your wife currently lives with you in Northern Ireland, i.e. the UK, and wants to enter the Republic; correct?

Therefore she is entitled to whatever the Irish equivalent of the UK's EEA family permit is; she does not have to live in the Republic at all.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I have no idea how she goes about this, which is why I suggested contacting the embassy. Information on the INIS website is not clear, but it appears she applies online and will then be told where to go to hand in her supporting documents and her passport.

Or she could just carry her marriage certificate and UK ILR and hope all will be well.

[tullynagardy]

If your wife has lived with you on the Island of Ireland for 3 years or more, she can apply for Irish Citizenship through naturalisation

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/becoming_an_irish_citizen_through_marriage.html

It's only two years and I'm not trying to upstage you in any way

• You must be married to or in a recognised civil partnership* with the Irish citizen for at least 3 years
• You must have had a period of 1 year's continuous reckonable residence - see below - in the island of Ireland immediately before the date of your application
• You must have been living on the island of Ireland for at least 2 of the 4 years before that year of continuous residence
• Your marriage or civil partnership must be recognised as valid under Irish law
• You and your spouse or civil partner must be living together as husband and wife or civil partners
• You must be of full age, good character and intend to continue to live on the island of Ireland
• You must have made a declaration of fidelity to the nation and loyalty to the State.

The interesting point for people in the six counties is they refer to "the island of Ireland".

Note: I suspect the reference to 'the island' is because the Republic still classify all of Ireland as being Irish which dates back to the treaty in 1921.

I think that residence in Northern Ireland counts under the rules.

The benefit for Irish passport holders is there is no need for the spouse to pass English language tests or 'Life in the Irish Republic Exams.

There is also no financial threshold apart from a rule you must not be claiming benefits.

I went through this process with my wife several years ago and have to tell you that unlike the UKBA the Irish immigration staff are very helpful and at the end of the phone.

The people in the Tipperary Office will happily talk you through the process. For anyone who is entitled to an Irish passport I suggest you contact them.

If you genuinely want any more help or info then send a personal message. I don't want to be flamed or called a troll for trying to give advice from experience

Whilst the flights from Dublin Im still not any clearer on you have made me aware of a possibility I didnt know existed.

If this is as it seems I think my Mrs could bypass the UKBA English tests and life in Uk tests. I did a typo before, she is currently on a spouse visa and not ILR.

From what this shows, despite living in the UK (NI) I can wait until its 3 years since we got married and get her an Irish passport and not worry about questions about English forts etc.

[I Like Thai]

Whilst the flights from Dublin Im still not any clearer on you have made me aware of a possibility I didnt know existed.

If this is as it seems I think my Mrs could bypass the UKBA English tests and life in Uk tests. I did a typo before, she is currently on a spouse visa and not ILR.

From what this shows, despite living in the UK (NI) I can wait until its 3 years since we got married and get her an Irish passport and not worry about questions about English forts etc.

Yes, this is correct. Citizenship and Immigration laws are a potential minefield when it comes to Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland and nobody wants to cause upset. This is the reason that Ireland has fairly easy Immigration laws compared to other countries.

Irish law on Citizenship looks at Ireland in a Geographical sense rather than a political sense. In the Irish constitution, there is no such thing as The Republic of Ireland. It is named as Ireland.

Because of this, any Irish citizen is equal to the same rights as any other Irish citizen any where in geographical Ireland.

If you are an Irish Citizen living in Belfast legally with your wife, then you will both be treated the same as if you both were living in Dublin. It is a legacy of the bad times. But in this case the legacy can be a silver lining rather than the cloud

Edit: The rights as outlined earlier are protected by Articles 2 of the constitution

ARTICLE 2

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.

Edited September 13, 2013 by I Like Thai

[tullynagardy]

Whilst the flights from Dublin Im still not any clearer on you have made me aware of a possibility I didnt know existed.

If this is as it seems I think my Mrs could bypass the UKBA English tests and life in Uk tests. I did a typo before, she is currently on a spouse visa and not ILR.

From what this shows, despite living in the UK (NI) I can wait until its 3 years since we got married and get her an Irish passport and not worry about questions about English forts etc.

Yes, this is correct. Citizenship and Immigration laws are a potential minefield when it comes to Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland and nobody wants to cause upset. This is the reason that Ireland has fairly easy Immigration laws compared to other countries.

Irish law on Citizenship looks at Ireland in a Geographical sense rather than a political sense. In the Irish constitution, there is no such thing as The Republic of Ireland. It is named as Ireland.

Because of this, any Irish citizen is equal to the same rights as any other Irish citizen any where in geographical Ireland.

If you are an Irish Citizen living in Belfast legally with your wife, then you will both be treated the same as if you both were living in Dublin. It is a legacy of the bad times. But in this case the legacy can be a silver lining rather than the cloud

Edit: The rights as outlined earlier are protected by Articles 2 of the constitution

ARTICLE 2

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.

I`m glad something good came out of this thread!

Her current Uk visa expires at the end of March 2016, whilst we are 3 years married in January of the same year. Hopefully that 2 month period provides us with enough time to get her naturalised and not be in the country illegally.

Quite a satisfying feeling to bypass all the hoops the UKBA put for us!

[cdnvic]

Ok, we've had enough with people derailing the thread with their personal bickering. If anyone can help the OP, that's great. If you have corrections regarding advice given, it should be given politely, and received with an open mind.

Personal attacks won't be tolerated.

[tullynagardy]

my advice to obtain the Irish equivalent of the UK's EEA family permit.

INIS have stated I need to reside in the Republic to get this

I may just try and pursue with the airlines!

[tullynagardy]

Which means that as she is travelling with you, her spouse and an EEA citizen, she does not need a visa to enter the RoI; providing she can prove to Irish immigration that she is your spouse, you are an EEA citizen and she is travelling with you. So take your marriage certificate with you and if you married in Thailand a certified translation.

Just for anyone using this thread for advice in the future, INIS informed me that the above is not actually true. This is because she lacks a residence card.

From Wiki -

"The right of free movement is granted automatically when the requirements are fulfilled, and it is not subject to an administrative act. However, member states may require the EEA citizen and family members to register with the relevant authorities. The relevant documentations are:

• an entry visa for the non-EEA family members if they are visa nationals and do not hold a residence card from another member state,
• a residence certificate (for EEA citizens) or a residence card (for non-EEA family members), which may be valid for up to 5 years and confirms the right of residence,
• a permanent residence certificate or a permanent residence card, which certifies the right of permanent residence."

It seems in order to get through Dublin airport we will need a visa.

[7by7]

It seems whoever you spoke to does not know their EU law!

See Arriving at the border without an entry visa from Europa.eu (An official site of the EU. Better source than Wiki!)

It's always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by any means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

As I said, it is better that she obtain the appropriate visa as this may save time arguing the toss at Irish immigration, and the airline may refuse to board her without one.

Remember that EU law says she must be issued one with the minimum of delay and it must be free.

What did the INIS say about how she should apply?