Probe of Sunday's THAI aircraft accident begins

[webfact]

Probe of Sunday's THAI aircraft accident begins
By English News



BANGKOK, Sept 11 – Investigation into Sunday's Thai Airways International aircraft incident at Suvarnabhumi Airport has begun but it was not speculated as to when the results would be disclosed, according to a senior aviation official.

Voradej Harnprasert, Department of Civil Aviation director general, said the investigation was to find the causes of the accident and preventive measures, not to find fault or punish anyone.

He said reports from the Control Tower and the Airports of Thailand (AoT) on the malfunctioning right landing gear and sparks near the area of the landing gear were conflicting.

Conclusions from the preliminary investigation, together with the flight data recorder or black box, would be submitted to experts abroad for an in-depth probe, he said.

“We do not know how long the investigation will take. It takes years in some cases,” he said.

Sorajak Kasemsuvan, THAI president, said the damaged Airbus A330-300 aircraft would possibly be moved from the eastern runway by midnight.

A total of 172 arriving and departing flights at Suvarnabhumi Airport were delayed yesterday at 10-20 minutes on average.

The THAI aircraft arriving from Guangzhou skidded off the eastern runway Sunday night, injuring 13 passengers. (MCOT online news)


-- TNA 2013-09-11

[worgeordie]

Not a probe !, that should bring out all the truth, I don't think !

regards Worgeordie

[BuddyPinkham]

but it was not speculated as to when the results would be disclosed, according to a senior aviation official.......... "IF AT ALL"

[BuddyPinkham]

Not a probe !, that should bring out all the truth, I don't think !

regards Worgeordie

or they just need time to write a report that seems real and reasonable. It will take awhile because they will have to have at least a dozen people look at it, rewrite it and make other changes.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong...

But I can't find that the Thai CA Department posts online anywhere its final investigation reports -- something that is commonly done in other countries.

The reports for some of the prior major crashes/mishaps are out there online, but seem to be hosted by others... not the Thai government site.

Edited September 11, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[kartman]

Experts abroad ..WOW

[NongKhaiKid]

Why don't they just employ only foreign pilots so when something goes wrong blame can be instantly laid at the obviously guilty party's door, no need for tiresome enquiries that need fiddled anyway.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Experts abroad ..WOW

Well, the local authorities here don't have such a great track record when it comes to conducting their own aircraft accident investigation inquiries.

And in this case, once again, it will be one arm of the government (CA) supposedly investigating another arm of the government, THAI Air, which is 51% owned by the Ministry of Finance.

[Tywais]

He said reports from the Control Tower and the Airports of Thailand (AoT) on the malfunctioning right landing gear and sparks near the area of the landing gear were conflicting.

I would say the control tower would have a better viewpoint advantage than AOT who was probably sitting in their offices.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

He said reports from the Control Tower and the Airports of Thailand (AoT) on the malfunctioning right landing gear and sparks near the area of the landing gear were conflicting.

I would say the control tower would have a better viewpoint advantage than AOT who was probably sitting in their offices.

The Post had a reference saying the ATC had said something about a fire PRIOR to the landing, whereas THAI is saying only sparks once the plane bottomed out on the runway.

But nowhere that I've seen has that issue been followed up on or reconciled.

[Torrens54]

Cover-up began already.

Just have a look at the Black Paint over their Logos, if that isn't an attempted THAI Airways Cover-up, then I don't know what is.

[Bpuumike]

He said reports from the Control Tower and the Airports of Thailand (AoT) on the malfunctioning right landing gear and sparks near the area of the landing gear were conflicting.

I would say the control tower would have a better viewpoint advantage than AOT who was probably sitting in their offices.

The Post had a reference saying the ATC had said something about a fire PRIOR to the landing, whereas THAI is saying only sparks once the plane bottomed out on the runway.

But nowhere that I've seen has that issue been followed up on or reconciled.

I understand the captain had already declared an emergency landing to ATC.

[jaiyen]

Surely Airbus will want to do an investigation as well as ATSB and FAA. They wont let Thai do a cover up.

[marell]

THAI...er...That unknown Bangkok based airline with the purple color scheme, pranged a jet at Suvarnabhumi airport. Lightning fast emergency response managed to conceal the aircraft's logo flashes immediately, fooling everyone as to it's ownership. Yet the unknown airline took three days to begin investigating the accident. Shows very clearly where their priorities lie. Covering things up is the main accident priority and vastly more important than identifying/fixing problems. Consumer confidence soars.

Edited September 11, 2013 by marell

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Surely Airbus will want to do an investigation as well as ATSB and FAA. They wont let Thai do a cover up.

The Thai government can consult or invite any external agency they wish. But in this case, who knows if they will. Airbus presumably would have some rights and role as the manufacturer of the mishap aircraft. But Thailand, as the country of jurisdiction, has the primary role.

By ATSB, I'm assuming you mean Australia. And for the U.S., it's the NTSB that investigates aircraft mishaps and was involved in the prior THAI Air/Don Muang jet explosion and the One-Two-Go jet crash at Phuket. But both of those were U.S.-built aircraft.

In this case, it's an Airbus/European aircraft, so I guess the closest corresponding agency would be the European Aviation Safety Agency and/or the European Network of Civil Aviation Safety Investigation Authorities.

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/safety/accident_investigation/authorities_en.htm

It certainly will be interesting to see what, if any, external safety agencies play a role in the mishap investigation.

Edited September 11, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JoeThePoster]

Best pilots - check

Best cabin crew - check

Best airport - check

Best weather - check

Yup, it's gotta be Airbus or the Chinese passengers.

[ZeroIce]

He said reports from the Control Tower and the Airports of Thailand (AoT) on the malfunctioning right landing gear and sparks near the area of the landing gear were conflicting.

I would say the control tower would have a better viewpoint advantage than AOT who was probably sitting in their offices.

The Post had a reference saying the ATC had said something about a fire PRIOR to the landing, whereas THAI is saying only sparks once the plane bottomed out on the runway.

But nowhere that I've seen has that issue been followed up on or reconciled.

I understand the captain had already declared an emergency landing to ATC.

Was that before or after he Landed, that he declared an emergency landing..................

[MaxYakov]

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong...

But I can't find that the Thai CA Department posts online anywhere its final investigation reports -- something that is commonly done in other countries.

The reports for some of the prior major crashes/mishaps are out there online, but seem to be hosted by others... not the Thai government site.

Apparently you were correct - you couldn't find it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_Accident_Investigation_Committee

http://www.isasi.org/contact_gasig.html

Found one report by the Thai AAIC, at least:

http://www.aviation.go.th/doc/Interim%20Report.pdf

Here's the main page for English: http://www.aviation.go.th/index_en.htm

You could give them a ring or send snail mail or wander over to Rama IV and ask for a progress report on this accident (OMG!):

The Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee of Thailand

Air Safety Division

Department of Aviation

71 S01 Ngahm-Duplee, Rama IV Road

Bangkok 10120 THAILAND

Phone: 2860506, 2860594, 2855450

Facsimile: 2873186

Google! There is no substitute ... except: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_search_engines

Edited September 11, 2013 by MaxYakov

[hawksway]

This is one investigation that will not be covered up despite all local attempts. Information from the Flight data and Cockpit Voice Recorder will be filed internationally. In the event of human error some feedback will be made available quite soon, otherwise mechanical problems will take longer to be revealed.

One can harp back to the Boeing 737 incident during the Taksin era when the aircraft exploded while parked on the stand. At that time the Thai Government for the sake of good P.R quickly put out the story that the P.M was about to board the plane and blamed the incident on a bomb. Boeing Accident Investigators leaked the results prematurely blaming an overheated air conditioner only to be swiftly rebuked by the Government because that would not suit the P.R. However, some time later the Boeing results were accepted by the Government.

[bigbamboo]

I'd love to see National Geographic's excellent Air Crash Investigates have a go at this one. What the experts would make of the paint job would be fascinating TV!

As for taking years this is a fairly straightforward case, plenty of evidence and no rich, influential persons involved. Even Chalerm could probably come up with the definitive verdict after a few drinkies.

[MaxYakov]

I'd love to see National Geographic's excellent Air Crash Investigates have a go at this one. What the experts would make of the paint job would be fascinating TV!

As for taking years this is a fairly straightforward case, plenty of evidence and no rich, influential persons involved. Even Chalerm could probably come up with the definitive verdict after a few drinkies.

Firstly it's the 'Mayday' TV series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_%28TV_series%29

and, according to Wiki, it's a Cineflix production, not National Geographic's (although it may be shown on the NatGeo channel).

Secondly, don't hold your breath for them to document this one - probably too few casualties and/or Yingluck was not aboard (probably). But wasn't there a Hi-so movie/TV star type that made some lame eyewitness statements yesterday, come to think of it?

Thirdly, how do you know there aren't some 'rich, influential' people involved (especially with financial skin in the game)?

Fourthly, maybe it's you who should be watching those 'drinkies'?

[bigbamboo]

I'd love to see National Geographic's excellent Air Crash Investigates have a go at this one. What the experts would make of the paint job would be fascinating TV!

As for taking years this is a fairly straightforward case, plenty of evidence and no rich, influential persons involved. Even Chalerm could probably come up with the definitive verdict after a few drinkies.

Firstly it's the 'Mayday' TV series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_%28TV_series%29

and, according to Wiki, it's a Cineflix production, not National Geographic's (although it may be shown on the NatGeo channel).

Secondly, don't hold your breath for them to document this one - probably too few casualties and/or Yingluck was not aboard (probably). But wasn't there a Hi-so movie/TV star type that made some lame eyewitness statements yesterday, come to think of it?

Thirdly, how do you know there aren't some 'rich, influential' people involved (especially with financial skin in the game)?

Fourthly, maybe it's you who should be watching those 'drinkies'?

Well, having watched most of the programmes on the National Geograpic Channel entitled Air Crash Investigates I assumed that was the name of the channel and the name of the series. Still, if you've consulted your Wiki oracle and now know better then I'm OK with that.

As far as I know there were no rich, influential persons involved that might slow up the investigation but again if you know better.

And what has the number of casualties involved got to do with anything?

[MaxYakov]

I'd love to see National Geographic's excellent Air Crash Investigates have a go at this one. What the experts would make of the paint job would be fascinating TV!

As for taking years this is a fairly straightforward case, plenty of evidence and no rich, influential persons involved. Even Chalerm could probably come up with the definitive verdict after a few drinkies.

Firstly it's the 'Mayday' TV series: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_%28TV_series%29

and, according to Wiki, it's a Cineflix production, not National Geographic's (although it may be shown on the NatGeo channel).

Secondly, don't hold your breath for them to document this one - probably too few casualties and/or Yingluck was not aboard (probably). But wasn't there a Hi-so movie/TV star type that made some lame eyewitness statements yesterday, come to think of it?

Thirdly, how do you know there aren't some 'rich, influential' people involved (especially with financial skin in the game)?

Fourthly, maybe it's you who should be watching those 'drinkies'?

Well, having watched most of the programmes on the National Geograpic Channel entitled Air Crash Investigates I assumed that was the name of the channel and the name of the series. Still, if you've consulted your Wiki oracle and now know better then I'm OK with that.

As far as I know there were no rich, influential persons involved that might slow up the investigation but again if you know better.

And what has the number of casualties involved got to do with anything?

Quote: As far as I know there were no rich, influential persons involved that might slow up the investigation but again if you know better.

I have to know only one thing: TiT

Quote: And what has the number of casualties involved got to do with anything?

How many 'Mayday' episodes involved a collapsed landing gear that caused a runway departure without deaths?

How many episodes involved either something unique or a crash having little nor no survivability? It's about potential public interest, high-drama and ratings (aka money). Check 'Fourthly' or didn't you get that far?

IMHO this one has a better chance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

(especially with fire trucks running over and killing passengers on the ground - wouldn't you say?)

Edited September 11, 2013 by MaxYakov

[Thai at Heart]

He said reports from the Control Tower and the Airports of Thailand (AoT) on the malfunctioning right landing gear and sparks near the area of the landing gear were conflicting.

Conclusions from the preliminary investigation, together with the flight data recorder or black box, would be submitted to experts abroad for an in-depth probe, he said.

“We do not know how long the investigation will take. It takes years in some cases,” he said.

Well, basically, Airbus and the NTSB will analyse the data, put their public statement out to the industry, and then the Thai's will try desperately to put their spin on it, if in any way it is shown that Thai Airways or the pilots were at fault.

Let's only hope that it was a complete accident, and not pilot incompetence, or shonky maintenance. Could take years..... Hmmmm....... This is a plane that ran off the runway, in front of hundreds of living witnesses, not some horrendous air crash mystery where a plane randomly fell out of the sky never to be recovered.

[Thai at Heart]

I'd love to see National Geographic's excellent Air Crash Investigates have a go at this one. What the experts would make of the paint job would be fascinating TV!

As for taking years this is a fairly straightforward case, plenty of evidence and no rich, influential persons involved. Even Chalerm could probably come up with the definitive verdict after a few drinkies.

Well, it veered off the runway. Not an expert but there can only be so many explanations.

Mechanical failure, maintenance failure or pilot error. The plane is still completely intact, and they have the recorders. Either the pilot drove it off the runway in error or deliberately (highly unlikely) or something broke either through it failing, or shonky maintenance. I mean they are even reporting that the pilots announced some kind of emergency before it landed, so it is hardly going to make a one hour TV show.

[Tywais]

I'd love to see National Geographic's excellent Air Crash Investigates have a go at this one. What the experts would make of the paint job would be fascinating TV!

As for taking years this is a fairly straightforward case, plenty of evidence and no rich, influential persons involved. Even Chalerm could probably come up with the definitive verdict after a few drinkies.

Well, it veered off the runway. Not an expert but there can only be so many explanations.

Mechanical failure, maintenance failure or pilot error. The plane is still completely intact, and they have the recorders. Either the pilot drove it off the runway in error or deliberately (highly unlikely) or something broke either through it failing, or shonky maintenance. I mean they are even reporting that the pilots announced some kind of emergency before it landed, so it is hardly going to make a one hour TV show.

I posted this in the other topic but since there are questions here regarding the why will post it also.

"Thailand's Civil Aviation Authority reported on Tuesday (Sep 10th) that permission to move the aircraft off the runway has been granted, the works to release the runway fully back to service should be completed by midnight to Wednesday local time. The Authority added later in the day that the root cause of the runway excursion has been determined to be the fracture of the right hand main gear bogie beam. The cause of the fracture as well related events including the damage to the engines and engine fire are still being investigated.

On Sep 10th 2013 the airline said initial investigation results suggest that the aircraft had travelled about 1000 meters down the runway following a smooth landing when the right hand bogie beam broke and caused the runway excursion. The aircraft received substantial damage, especially on its right hand side and engine. Following the fracture of the bogie beam the right hand engine scraped along the runway surface causing sparks and some smoke, the actual cause of the following engine fire is still being investigated however.

The airport authority reported the airplane was moved off the runway area in the early morning of Wednesday Sep 11th 2013."

The link NeverSure posted earlier has been updated here - http://avherald.com/...=4681fccd&opt=0

[NeverSure]

Anyone want to start taking bets?

Main landing gear failed to get down and locked and pilots didn't get their 3 green lights.

Pilots declared an emergency before landing, which explains the fire trucks being right there.

Bogie beam has malfunctioned due to lack of inspection and maintenance as required in various airworthiness directives.

Plane touches down with right main gear not down and locked.

Plane immediately begins deeply gouging the runway as there are no wheels down and rolling for the right main gear.

This causes the plane to begin to veer to the right and off the runway, into the grass.

This also causes the right engine to drag and catch fire. The plane is sliding on the right engine because it has no wheels down on the right mains.

Fire trucks and people with lifts and black spray paint are at the ready as a result of the declared emergency.

Various foreign agencies and Airbus with a vested interest in this will declare the above to be true, especially the lack of inspection and maintenance.

Thailand will deny any wrongdoing, and blame on someone - anything else.

Any takers?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Tywais, your post above talking about the potential cause of the mishap seems to be a recap of today's Bangkok Post article quoting the Thai CA guy...

But, unlike the post content above, the CA guy in the Post article only discussed the bogie issue as a likely or possible cause... not one that had been determined in fact to be the cause of the mishap.

I really don't think or even imagine the Thai CA authorities have determined much of anything at this early point, especially a definitive cause for the mishap.

[AYJAYDEE]

Thailand's Civil Aviation Authority reported on Tuesday (Sep 10th) that permission to move the aircraft off the runway has been granted, the works to release the runway fully back to service should be completed by midnight to Wednesday local time. The Authority added later in the day that the root cause of the runway excursion has been determined to be the fracture of the right hand main gear bogie beam. The cause of the fracture as well related events including the damage to the engines and engine fire are still being investigated.

On Sep 10th 2013 the airline said initial investigation results suggest that the aircraft had travelled about 1000 meters down the runway following a smooth landing when the right hand bogie beam broke and caused the runway excursion. The aircraft received substantial damage, especially on its right hand side and engine. Following the fracture of the bogie beam the right hand engine scraped along the runway surface causing sparks and some smoke, the actual cause of the following engine fire is still being investigated however.

The airport authority reported the airplane was moved off the runway area in the early morning of Wednesday Sep 11th 2013.

http://avherald.com/h?article=4681fccd&opt=0

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Well, having watched most of the programmes on the National Geograpic Channel entitled Air Crash Investigates I assumed that was the name of the channel and the name of the series. Still, if you've consulted your Wiki oracle and now know better then I'm OK with that.

As far as I know there were no rich, influential persons involved that might slow up the investigation but again if you know better.

And what has the number of casualties involved got to do with anything?

There was a former Bangkok gubernatorial candidate and some kind of Thai young guy celebrity among the passengers.... haven't heard or seen anything more than that.

Doubt that's going to have any impact on the investigation. There are a lot bigger and potentially sensitive issues involved, depending on what information results from the investigation.

Here, by the way, is the full One-Two-Go accident investigation report...totaling 160 pages, and 40+ pages of the main report prior to all the exhibits. It's a fair amount more detailed than the much briefer "interim" document posted above.

1-2-Go Sept 2007 Phuket Crash HS_OMG Accident Report.pdf

But I've never seen it posted anywhere on the Department of Civil Aviation's website.

Edited September 11, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK