Changing China Set to Shake World Economy, Again

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted. Comparisons are OK, but make sure it's a comparison and not just a commentary.

Thanks.

[Publicus]

National People's Congress

Under China's 1982 constitution, the most powerful organ of state is meant to be the National People's Congress (NPC), China's parliament. In truth, it is little more than a rubber stamp for party decisions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/china_politics/government/html/7.stm

I suppose by that you are defining most governments in the democratic sense where unless the whip is lifted you will vote along the party lines.

Most Americans would rather have a rubber stamp moment now just to get out of this financial mess where parties ego are affecting the average man on the street more

Seen Singapore lately since their independence like 45 years ago ? Same political party PAP with as little as 2 opposition members in the parliament for most of the years until lately and would you define that country as a failure or evil ?

I'd call it democracy Asian style.

Democracy is different from country to country, continent to continent.

Still, Singapore, Hong Kong and Taiwan prove the Chinese can live successfully as democratic countries. Then there are many hyphenated Chinese in countries of Asia who live successfully, happily and harmoniously in democracies, such as Thailand to name one such country.

Yet, the CCP says it is impossible, that only the CCP can govern the mainland Chinese. Dr. Liu Xiaobo, the 2010 Nobel Peace Laureate, is in prison (again, this time for 11 years) because he advocates bringing democracy to the CCP-PRC by means that are gradual, peaceful, deliberate, careful, eventual, measured. Beijing is the only government of the world that has a Nobel Peace Laureate imprisoned.

Is the CCP right?

Edited October 17, 2013 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Food for thought:

If the 10 ASEAN nations (population about 600 million) got their act together they could be a real competitor to China.

Imagine. The 10 nations working closely together as a unit, with Japan and Australasia as very close economic partners. Financial centre in Singapore. Economic and international cooperation from Europe and the US.

ASEAN would be very powerful.

They might even need China to do some manufacturing for them. Indonesia is well placed to do this in the meantime.

Geographically ASEAN very well placed with shipping lanes north, south, east and west.

Maybe China is already worried about this possibility? It is not in China's interest for ASEAN to become strong unless China is the boss.

China Sea dispute, economic ties between China and individual ASEAN countries being forged by Xi and Li, high speed rail track all the way from Southern China to KL and beyond?

What is China's long term plan for the region.

ASEAN with Japan and Australasia could be fantastic.

And they will trade with who on the scale you talk about ??

Any moderate understand all inclusive is better than exclusive and yes china is sealing deals faster than the west which is causing some green eyes naturally as they are making friends with no ties underscoring what they are best at ...commerce

They have learnt a quick lesson from the recent failures of the west .., don't put your trade on one source alone.

Asean countries are increasing their already significant trade with their regional market, the CCP-PRC and simultaneously upgrading their defense alliances with the United States, Australia, Japan, India.

It would seem everyone agrees, for different reasons, that Asean governments and their ruling elites are not unrealistic.

[Publicus]

@folium

'We drown, you go down with us' is another of the implications of your long spiel containing praise and criticisms for the CCP-PRC, that I could take issue with.

I remind you of my previous concern regarding accuracy.

"To date the CCP have operated the simple deal of improved economic conditions for the average person at the cost of individual liberties."

They've creamed it while the going has been good and a lot of people have got wealthy and many have got extremely rich.

To avoid any ambiguity of communication with a westerner it is advisable to talk out the front of your mouth.

Please feel free to take issue, that what forums should be all about. I don't pretend I know all the answers and if you know better and have the evidence to back it up we all learn.

The point I was trying to make is fairly simple and I don't believe that controversial, namely that by many economic and social measurements life for the average person in China has improved markedly in the last 20 years and the move away form the doctrinaire policies of Mao et al.

eg Life expectancy 1960 32: 2011 75

Child mortality 1960 309/1000 births: 2011 15/1000

84% of China's population lived in extreme poverty (<$1.25/day) in 1981: in 2011 13%

and so on.

Before such positive data triggers any "wailing and gnashing of teeth", let me reiterate the point that such advances have been achieved in a society largely devoid of civil liberties, up to and including reproductive rights via the shocking and largely unnecessary OCP.

Are you being deliberately contrarian or do you actually recognize the CCP as legitimate and valid?

[SinglePot]

"Then there are many hyphenated Chinese in countries of Asia who live successfully, happily and harmoniously in democracies, such as Thailand to name one such country."

Correct. I know of at least one Thai-Chinese lady who was very happy living in the democratic United Kingdom.

She had a cousin who was Thai-Japanese who was also very happy in London btw.

Beijing needs the exact opposite of CCP control to bring it into the modern world.

Plenty of Yuan ( for some) is not enough.

[Publicus]

This thread may be of interest to our readers. It's about the UK changing the visa regulations for the Chinese, which will make it easier for them to travel to the UK.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/674468-uk-visa-changes-bbc-report/#entry6922353

They are also starting a new VIP expedited visa next day approval device where they visit you at your office or home to have the visa processed.

Great for high street and those in the tourism business ...a boom will happen there and in the business arena as the Chinese do think highly of the Brits...after all we all drink tea

The UK government is finally reciprocating Beijing.

That is, since Deng's opening up of the CCP's economy in 1979, two passports in the PRC are said by foreigners with experience in the PRC to be "gold." They are for passport holders from the UK and the USA. The CCP wants our expertise, our technology, our advanced levels of education, our willingness to focus on economics and finance - and to teach English - and our overall eagerness to develop the PRChina market to our mutual benefit.

However, the PRChinese have had to jump through flaming hoops to get into the UK or the USA, where there continue to be strict controls over CCP state owned corporations making investments or making acquisitions, to include mergers, or to become employed in the domestic economy of either country. (PRChinese students have become all the more welcome in hugely record numbers in each country, and, closer to home, in Australia or Hong Kong.)

The present move by the UK is a reciprocation of decades of the UK passport being "gold" in the CCP-PRC. Indeed, the UK's technological inventions and their application to visa processing procedures are another dimension contrasted to the CCP-PRC's laborious and circuitous visa application procedures and processes.

The USA continues to be highly restrictive towards CCP entering the USA. The Confucius Institutes are the prime example.

Funded entirely by the CCP, the Confucius Institutes are accepted by universities in various countries throughout the world, to include N America, Europe, Australia. They provide CCP personnel for cultural education and, interestingly, provide grant funds to the host universities - grants of money, no repayment required.

However, the Confucius Institutes are controlled by the CCP in Beijing. So when the Institutes suddenly prohibited discussion of whether Taiwan is a sovereign country or a province of the CCP-PRC, and prohibited discussion of issues such as Tibet or Xin Jiang, among other topics the CCP doesn't want to be contradicted on, Prez Obama ordered all CCP Confucius Institutes' teaching personnel in the United States to have to return to the CCP-PRC to get visa renewals. No more going to the US Embassy in Canada or in Mexico, whichever is more convenient geographically - or even to Venezuela or to or a US Embassy in a Caribbean country etc.

And the Confucius Institute personnel are having a truckload of fun trying to get a visa renewed at the US Embassy in Beijing or at the US Consular General Offices in Chengdu or Guangzhou on the mainland. N-o-t. They'll grow a Confucius beard before they get a visa renewed to return to their respective Confucius Institute in the United States.

And good luck to any new CCP cadre trying to enter the United States to replace the lost CCP teaching cadre of existing Confucius Institutes. The result is a lot less teaching by a gradually decreasing number of CCP cadre at Confucius Institutes in the United States while the grant monies to US universities continue to flow.

Message made, point clear.

Still, however, the USA passport in the CCP-PRC remains "golden". They need us more than we need them, if we need them at all.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Publicus

[Publicus]

I can't find the article on the internet I got that from, I remember reading it in either The Nation or the Bangkok Post..what it said was in China, the local governments had a low approval rating(corruption, power abuse), the central government had a high approval rating..the author of the study insisted that the poll respondents were not in anyway intimidated.

Saddam Hussein had 99% approval record also, same for Assad's father and other oppressive dictators. Heck, Chubby Boy Kim in N.Korea has 100%, even though some of those voting have families in hard labor prison camps for 'thought crimes'. Rule of thumb for such polls indicating 'approval rating': if they're over 90%, the survey is fixed and/or those voting have only one category to choose ....or else.

Actually, I think the last plebiscite before Saddam's downfall in Iraq gave him 126% of the vote.

There aren't any plebicites in N Korea but Kim's public opinion polls show he has a popular approval rating of 121%.

Assad just released a survey showing he has the support of 156% of the Syrian people.

Any dictator worth his salt gets popular approval ratings of at least 120%.

Everyone knows that. (I'd put a smiley emoticon here but my bar at the top doesn't respond any more while I'm at ThaiVisaForum.)

However, the CCP is in serious trouble as indicated by its most recent survey of the PRC sheeple - results show an approval rating of only 94%. Looks like their days are numbered over there.

[boomerangutang]

FDog: "Well if you want to insist it (how it is governed) is relevant then you have to admit they are doing a fantastic job as it is an economic superpower."

I cannot admit they're doing a fantastic job as a superpower. Yes, a significant proportion of Chinese have made transitions from rural poor to urban poor. Some have become fabulously rich, fersure. Yet, pollution accompanies the increased production. They see it too (and breathe it, and drink it, etc.) and, to their credit, are making some efforts to lessen pollution. Their government has a primary role in the pollution equation, due to regulations (or lack thereof), poor planning, policing polluters, clean-up programs, etc. Additionally, China sits squarely as the 2nd strongest economy ww, but it does essentially nothing to assist other countries/people in need. Plus, when a pollution decreasing policy (Like Kyoto) is proposed, Chinese officials opt out, claiming they're too poor to participate.

[folium]

@folium

'We drown, you go down with us' is another of the implications of your long spiel containing praise and criticisms for the CCP-PRC, that I could take issue with.

I remind you of my previous concern regarding accuracy.

"To date the CCP have operated the simple deal of improved economic conditions for the average person at the cost of individual liberties."

They've creamed it while the going has been good and a lot of people have got wealthy and many have got extremely rich.

To avoid any ambiguity of communication with a westerner it is advisable to talk out the front of your mouth.

Please feel free to take issue, that what forums should be all about. I don't pretend I know all the answers and if you know better and have the evidence to back it up we all learn.

The point I was trying to make is fairly simple and I don't believe that controversial, namely that by many economic and social measurements life for the average person in China has improved markedly in the last 20 years and the move away form the doctrinaire policies of Mao et al.

eg Life expectancy 1960 32: 2011 75

Child mortality 1960 309/1000 births: 2011 15/1000

84% of China's population lived in extreme poverty (<$1.25/day) in 1981: in 2011 13%

and so on.

Before such positive data triggers any "wailing and gnashing of teeth", let me reiterate the point that such advances have been achieved in a society largely devoid of civil liberties, up to and including reproductive rights via the shocking and largely unnecessary OCP.

Are you being deliberately contrarian or do you actually recognize the CCP as legitimate and valid?

Not quite sure why you regard pointing out a fairly uncontroversial point, namely that in terms of many development indicators (eg life expectancy, infant mortality) life for many in China has improved, especially in the last 20 years, constitutes being "deliberatley contrarian".

Also your last point is a total non sequitur.

What is the connection between highlighting an improvement in living conditions and recognizing the CCP as "legitimate and valid"? Please point out any pro-government statements or views that I have posted. If you actually read my post that you comment on, the last paragraph makes my views pretty clear. Perhaps I need to spell it out a little clearer....

[Publicus]

@folium

'We drown, you go down with us' is another of the implications of your long spiel containing praise and criticisms for the CCP-PRC, that I could take issue with.

I remind you of my previous concern regarding accuracy.

"To date the CCP have operated the simple deal of improved economic conditions for the average person at the cost of individual liberties."

They've creamed it while the going has been good and a lot of people have got wealthy and many have got extremely rich.

To avoid any ambiguity of communication with a westerner it is advisable to talk out the front of your mouth.

Please feel free to take issue, that what forums should be all about. I don't pretend I know all the answers and if you know better and have the evidence to back it up we all learn.

The point I was trying to make is fairly simple and I don't believe that controversial, namely that by many economic and social measurements life for the average person in China has improved markedly in the last 20 years and the move away form the doctrinaire policies of Mao et al.

eg Life expectancy 1960 32: 2011 75

Child mortality 1960 309/1000 births: 2011 15/1000

84% of China's population lived in extreme poverty (<$1.25/day) in 1981: in 2011 13%

and so on.

Before such positive data triggers any "wailing and gnashing of teeth", let me reiterate the point that such advances have been achieved in a society largely devoid of civil liberties, up to and including reproductive rights via the shocking and largely unnecessary OCP.

Are you being deliberately contrarian or do you actually recognize the CCP as legitimate and valid?

Not quite sure why you regard pointing out a fairly uncontroversial point, namely that in terms of many development indicators (eg life expectancy, infant mortality) life for many in China has improved, especially in the last 20 years, constitutes being "deliberatley contrarian".

Also your last point is a total non sequitur.

What is the connection between highlighting an improvement in living conditions and recognizing the CCP as "legitimate and valid"? Please point out any pro-government statements or views that I have posted. If you actually read my post that you comment on, the last paragraph makes my views pretty clear. Perhaps I need to spell it out a little clearer....

The matter of political economy, professor.

I edit because it occurs to me that I need to define for you the term "political economy" so you can see how it applies to the CCP-PRC and to my post to this thread and, indeed, to every discussion of a nation's economy, which must necessarily include discussion of the nation's form of government.

"Political economy, therefore, is a particular kind of economy, in the literal meaning of the words it is that kind of economy which has relation to the community or state, to the social whole rather than to individuals."

http://schalkenbach.org/library/henry-george/science-of-political-economy/spe109.html

Edited October 17, 2013 by Publicus

[LawrenceChee]

This thread may be of interest to our readers. It's about the UK changing the visa regulations for the Chinese, which will make it easier for them to travel to the UK.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/674468-uk-visa-changes-bbc-report/#entry6922353

They are also starting a new VIP expedited visa next day approval device where they visit you at your office or home to have the visa processed.

Great for high street and those in the tourism business ...a boom will happen there and in the business arena as the Chinese do think highly of the Brits...after all we all drink tea

The UK government is finally reciprocating Beijing.

That is, since Deng's opening up of the CCP's economy in 1979, two passports in the PRC are said by foreigners with experience in the PRC to be "gold." They are for passport holders from the UK and the USA. The CCP wants our expertise, our technology, our advanced levels of education, our willingness to focus on economics and finance - and to teach English - and our overall eagerness to develop the PRChina market to our mutual benefit.

However, the PRChinese have had to jump through flaming hoops to get into the UK or the USA, where there continue to be strict controls over CCP state owned corporations making investments or making acquisitions, to include mergers, or to become employed in the domestic economy of either country. (PRChinese students have become all the more welcome in hugely record numbers in each country, and, closer to home, in Australia or Hong Kong.)

The present move by the UK is a reciprocation of decades of the UK passport being "gold" in the CCP-PRC. Indeed, the UK's technological inventions and their application to visa processing procedures are another dimension contrasted to the CCP-PRC's laborious and circuitous visa application procedures and processes.

The USA continues to be highly restrictive towards CCP entering the USA. The Confucius Institutes are the prime example.

Funded entirely by the CCP, the Confucius Institutes are accepted by universities in various countries throughout the world, to include N America, Europe, Australia. They provide CCP personnel for cultural education and, interestingly, provide grant funds to the host universities - grants of money, no repayment required.

However, the Confucius Institutes are controlled by the CCP in Beijing. So when the Institutes suddenly prohibited discussion of whether Taiwan is a sovereign country or a province of the CCP-PRC, and prohibited discussion of issues such as Tibet or Xin Jiang, among other topics the CCP doesn't want to be contradicted on, Prez Obama ordered all CCP Confucius Institutes' teaching personnel in the United States to have to return to the CCP-PRC to get visa renewals. No more going to the US Embassy in Canada or in Mexico, whichever is more convenient geographically - or even to Venezuela or to or a US Embassy in a Caribbean country etc.

And the Confucius Institute personnel are having a truckload of fun trying to get a visa renewed at the US Embassy in Beijing or at the US Consular General Offices in Chengdu or Guangzhou on the mainland. N-o-t. They'll grow a Confucius beard before they get a visa renewed to return to their respective Confucius Institute in the United States.

And good luck to any new CCP cadre trying to enter the United States to replace the lost CCP teaching cadre of existing Confucius Institutes. The result is a lot less teaching by a gradually decreasing number of CCP cadre at Confucius Institutes in the United States while the grant monies to US universities continue to flow.

Message made, point clear.

Still, however, the USA passport in the CCP-PRC remains "golden". They need us more than we need them, if we need them at all.

As for China needing USA more, you are wrong ..most of the Chinese corp are steering clear of the USA ...after the first spun of sinopec about 2 decades ago ...it's interesting to see China engaging actively everyone in the globe except the USA ...almost an inverted C shape when you look at China's trade and investments if you will.

So yes there are countries that is increasing trying to stay relevant in a new economy model driven largely by China

I don't think the embassy staff were overtly impressed by the technology more the convenience and preference given to the Chinese which will probably piss their own citizens off as their visa and consular services even for passport applications and renewals is getting tougher with the consolidation of services and budgetary cuts

And if one critique the visa application process of China ...remember even when they adopt some western practices ..aren't they still communist ?

So why would expect it to be easy ...unless you do have a Singapore, Japan or Brunei passport which gives u 14 day visa free to enter and leave at will.

[folium]

Are you being deliberately contrarian or do you actually recognize the CCP as legitimate and valid?

Not quite sure why you regard pointing out a fairly uncontroversial point, namely that in terms of many development indicators (eg life expectancy, infant mortality) life for many in China has improved, especially in the last 20 years, constitutes being "deliberatley contrarian".

Also your last point is a total non sequitur.

What is the connection between highlighting an improvement in living conditions and recognizing the CCP as "legitimate and valid"? Please point out any pro-government statements or views that I have posted. If you actually read my post that you comment on, the last paragraph makes my views pretty clear. Perhaps I need to spell it out a little clearer....

The matter of political economy, professor.

I edit because it occurs to me that I need to define for you the term "political economy" so you can see how it applies to the CCP-PRC and to my post to this thread and, indeed, to every discussion of a nation's economy, which must necessarily include discussion of the nation's form of government.

"Political economy, therefore, is a particular kind of economy, in the literal meaning of the words it is that kind of economy which has relation to the community or state, to the social whole rather than to individuals."

http://schalkenbach.org/library/henry-george/science-of-political-economy/spe109.html

I must admit to being somewhat baffled as to the point you are trying to make....

Few people would deny that government has a vital role in the running and organization of an economy, and that much of government policy is designed to enhance the status and power of the state rather than being focused on the well being of the individual. All states revolve around the interplay of economics, politics and the law with differing degrees and areas of focus.

Let's turn your statement around.

If I was to recognize the CCP as illegitimate and invalid how does that have a relevance to the observed and recorded fact re the improved living conditions (according to a multitude of academically robust metrics) of a significant majority of the Chinese population?

Perhaps you might find it easier to reconcile given the fact that much of the improvement came since the PRC was plugged into the global economy and opened up ( to some degree).

The deal whereby the average Chinese person sees an improvement in their socio-economic status whilst at the same time being deprived of the basic civil liberties many of us take for granted, has been a hallmark of the PRC for some time.

Is this incorrect?

Does a recognition of this necessitate being in support of the CCP? Noting that the trains allegedly ran on time under Il Duce or that Hitler was largely responsible for the development of the German autobahn system does not somehow translate into being a supporter of either regime.

Does your question imply that you believe the CCP is the illegitimate and invalid ruler of China , and if so on what basis?

Edited October 17, 2013 by folium

[butterlimbo]

Prez Obama ordered all CCP Confucius Institutes' teaching personnel in the United States to have to return to the CCP-PRC to get visa renewals. No more going to the US Embassy in Canada or in Mexico, whichever is more convenient geographically - or even to Venezuela or to or a US Embassy in a Caribbean country etc.

That is interesting, In the US the President does personally decide how visa issues should be handled?

Do you have any link or source that explains this issue further?

[Publicus]

Prez Obama ordered all CCP Confucius Institutes' teaching personnel in the United States to have to return to the CCP-PRC to get visa renewals. No more going to the US Embassy in Canada or in Mexico, whichever is more convenient geographically - or even to Venezuela or to or a US Embassy in a Caribbean country etc.

That is interesting, In the US the President does personally decide how visa issues should be handled?

Do you have any link or source that explains this issue further?

Ask and ye shall receive.

If you think or believe the president of the United States doesn't know anything about this, you'd have to think again about that.

State Dpt. Targets 'Confucius Institute' Teachers

Dozens of Chinese teachers at Confucius Institutes in the United States could be forced to leave by June 30 due to a State Department directive, the head of the institute’s Beijing headquarters said on Thursday.

The directive, issued May 17, was sent to universities that sponsor the nonprofit institutes that promote Chinese language and culture overseas.

What also caught universities by surprise is the fact that the directive says Confucius Institutes should obtain U.S. accreditation in order to continue to accept foreign scholars and professors as teachers.

"The department is reviewing the academic viability of the Confucius Institutes. Based on the department's preliminary review, it is not evident that those institutes are US-accredited," the directive states.

http://newamericamedia.org/2012/05/chinese-teachers-may-be-forced-to-leave-after-state-department-directive.php

Edited October 17, 2013 by Publicus

[folium]

Prez Obama ordered all CCP Confucius Institutes' teaching personnel in the United States to have to return to the CCP-PRC to get visa renewals. No more going to the US Embassy in Canada or in Mexico, whichever is more convenient geographically - or even to Venezuela or to or a US Embassy in a Caribbean country etc.

That is interesting, In the US the President does personally decide how visa issues should be handled?

Do you have any link or source that explains this issue further?

Seems like this incident ended up in quite a mess with the State Dept not looking too clever.

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/06/13/the-state-departments-confusion-over-confucius-institutes/

plus an interesting, relatively neutral piece on the Confucius Institutes

http://thediplomat.com/china-power/reexamining-the-confucian-institutes/

[Publicus]

Are you being deliberately contrarian or do you actually recognize the CCP as legitimate and valid?

Not quite sure why you regard pointing out a fairly uncontroversial point, namely that in terms of many development indicators (eg life expectancy, infant mortality) life for many in China has improved, especially in the last 20 years, constitutes being "deliberatley contrarian".

Also your last point is a total non sequitur.

What is the connection between highlighting an improvement in living conditions and recognizing the CCP as "legitimate and valid"? Please point out any pro-government statements or views that I have posted. If you actually read my post that you comment on, the last paragraph makes my views pretty clear. Perhaps I need to spell it out a little clearer....

The matter of political economy, professor.

I edit because it occurs to me that I need to define for you the term "political economy" so you can see how it applies to the CCP-PRC and to my post to this thread and, indeed, to every discussion of a nation's economy, which must necessarily include discussion of the nation's form of government.

"Political economy, therefore, is a particular kind of economy, in the literal meaning of the words it is that kind of economy which has relation to the community or state, to the social whole rather than to individuals."

http://schalkenbach.org/library/henry-george/science-of-political-economy/spe109.html

I must admit to being somewhat baffled as to the point you are trying to make....

Few people would deny that government has a vital role in the running and organization of an economy, and that much of government policy is designed to enhance the status and power of the state rather than being focused on the well being of the individual. All states revolve around the interplay of economics, politics and the law with differing degrees and areas of focus.

Let's turn your statement around.

If I was to recognize the CCP as illegitimate and invalid how does that have a relevance to the observed and recorded fact re the improved living conditions (according to a multitude of academically robust metrics) of a significant majority of the Chinese population?

Perhaps you might find it easier to reconcile given the fact that much of the improvement came since the PRC was plugged into the global economy and opened up ( to some degree).

The deal whereby the average Chinese person sees an improvement in their socio-economic status whilst at the same time being deprived of the basic civil liberties many of us take for granted, has been a hallmark of the PRC for some time.

Is this incorrect?

Does a recognition of this necessitate being in support of the CCP? Noting that the trains allegedly ran on time under Il Duce or that Hitler was largely responsible for the development of the German autobahn system does not somehow translate into being a supporter of either regime.

Does your question imply that you believe the CCP is the illegitimate and invalid ruler of China , and if so on what basis?

Well professor, you fail to give due and diligent attention to the definition of political economy. That is, you continue to talk of the individual PRCitizen in the economy of the CCP-PRC, or, in other instances, of the average PRChinese citizen in the economy.

Political economy focuses on the economy and its relationship, its interaction, with the community or the state, and with the interaction of these institutions with the society, not the individual or the average individual.

The state, the economy, the society are inextricably intertwined. When one speaks of the economic system of a nation, one also speaks of the government and of the interaction among the economy, the government, the society. The interrelationship and interaction are inseparable.

It's the CCP's political economy, just as its the CCP's society.

If, professor, you've been following developments in the CCP-PRC, you'd know and recognize there's a bad moon rising there.

The property market is in a bubble of USD $22 trillion. There's a massive bank credit bubble. There's a huge and extensive shadow banking system whose wealth management products have created the shadow banking system's own enormous credit bubble. Local governments with their illegal but endemic Local Development Vehicles have created their own gigantic credit bubble.

Everything you reference concerning the average PRChinese and his/her socioeconomic standing in the present, or the individual PRChinese and his/her socioeconomic status at this point, is meaningless in the larger context of the multi-bubble political economy. And I haven't even mentioned the massive and endemic corruption that permeates the CCP's political economy.

And, professor, you clearly have missed that the PRChinese as a whole have abandoned their previously long held given that, while their local and provincial officials are corrupt, their national leaders in Beijing are honest, genuine, sincere. The PRChinese population, the society at large and as a whole, have come to realize that the Boyz in Beijing are even more corrupt involving even more huge sums of money and assets than long corrupt local or provincial officials could ever dream of being.

Moreover, neither do the trains run on time nor are they safe.

[LawrenceChee]

That is inaccurate.

One only have to take the hexia line with their new trains and consider the volume of people they transport everyday and marvel at the scale of operations.

They compare favorably against any train system in the world even though like any system it is not perfect. I would say the amtrak is an embarrassment to train enthusiasts instead with its infrastructure and little modernization since inception

[LawrenceChee]

As for the point of corruption, I ask you state a comparison point by point on real data with western democratic states

Since Xi & Li came into government, 129 senior government officials have been investigated and have jail sentences handed out including the most high profile one for Bo XiLai

They heard their people, they understand the frustrations and they acted. I can't see any other swifter justice dishes out anywhere else in comparison.

Even in UK with the huge scandal on allowances reimbursement with the MPs and the Lords...there was no adequate punishment and I wonder why.

On the ground, I can share that the recent grind down on showy government dinners and entertainment is indeed true and not a show as most international hotels would report back that there is a slowdown in bookings from government agencies in comparison to past years

The dieheart critiques will continue to bash China, the moderates understand and like the direction they are going with their governance

China's economy is too big to fail and the bubble is still a bubble that is treatable if the right and firm steps are taken and the potential is realized

I am truly sorry it has already burst in the USA ...many of my friends have suffered in recent years in the states and I hope politically they get it right to correct it.

Ordinary people are being played around with their lives when governments act like it's their right to dictate party lines along with government policies ...sad.

[Publicus]

Prez Obama ordered all CCP Confucius Institutes' teaching personnel in the United States to have to return to the CCP-PRC to get visa renewals. No more going to the US Embassy in Canada or in Mexico, whichever is more convenient geographically - or even to Venezuela or to or a US Embassy in a Caribbean country etc.

That is interesting, In the US the President does personally decide how visa issues should be handled?

Do you have any link or source that explains this issue further?

Seems like this incident ended up in quite a mess with the State Dept not looking too clever.

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/06/13/the-state-departments-confusion-over-confucius-institutes/

plus an interesting, relatively neutral piece on the Confucius Institutes

http://thediplomat.com/china-power/reexamining-the-confucian-institutes/

Yes, a beef has developed about this between Beijing and Washington.

We'll see how it plays out. It is clear that the CCP in Beijing is on notice from Washington that the censoring policies and practices of the Confucius Institutes are unacceptable in respect of the US First Amendment and concerning academic freedom. These are not issues the US Government or academics will lightly dismiss, or at all dismiss.

China Says No Talking Tibet as Confucius Funds U.S. Universities

When a Beijing organization with close ties to China’s government offered Stanford University $4 million to host a Confucius Institute on Chinese language and culture and endow a professorship, it attached one caveat: The professor couldn’t discuss delicate issues like Tibet.

Confucius Institutes are adjusting to the values of American academia and becoming less heavy-handed in their demands, said Michael Nylan, professor of Chinese history at the University of California at Berkeley. They’ve learned from “early missteps,” such as insisting that universities adopt a policy that Taiwan is part of China, she said.

When Nylan took an informal survey this year of faculty and administrators at 15 universities with Confucius Institutes, two respondents reported that institutes had exerted pressure to block guest speakers, she said. Both events went ahead anyway, said Nylan, who declined to identify the universities.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-11-08/china-says-no-talking-tibet-as-confucius-funds-u-s-universities.html#p2

[Publicus]

As for the point of corruption, I ask you state a comparison point by point on real data with western democratic states

Since Xi & Li came into government, 129 senior government officials have been investigated and have jail sentences handed out including the most high profile one for Bo XiLai

They heard their people, they understand the frustrations and they acted. I can't see any other swifter justice dishes out anywhere else in comparison.

Even in UK with the huge scandal on allowances reimbursement with the MPs and the Lords...there was no adequate punishment and I wonder why.

On the ground, I can share that the recent grind down on showy government dinners and entertainment is indeed true and not a show as most international hotels would report back that there is a slowdown in bookings from government agencies in comparison to past years

The dieheart critiques will continue to bash China, the moderates understand and like the direction they are going with their governance

China's economy is too big to fail and the bubble is still a bubble that is treatable if the right and firm steps are taken and the potential is realized

I am truly sorry it has already burst in the USA ...many of my friends have suffered in recent years in the states and I hope politically they get it right to correct it.

Ordinary people are being played around with their lives when governments act like it's their right to dictate party lines along with government policies ...sad.

The ancient Greeks taught us about hubris and how destructive hubris is to human endeavors.

The Chinese missed that one too, hubris. You are full of it.

The CCP and you believe it can control a $22 trillion property market bubble? The equally huge bank credit bubble? The shadow banking system out of control huge debt? The local government illicit and already defaulting debt that amounts to as much as a third of GDP? CCP corruption is thousands of times worse than any instance of Western corruption you can point to.

You kid yourselves.

Western and other governments around the world, global banks, global investment houses and the like have already begun to draw plans for a global economy post-crash CCP-PRC economy. Such planning began only this year, as the myth of the CCP's economy being invincible has suddenly become starkly apparent.

You're in for the shock of your life. All of you.

[LawrenceChee]

As for the point of corruption, I ask you state a comparison point by point on real data with western democratic states

Since Xi & Li came into government, 129 senior government officials have been investigated and have jail sentences handed out including the most high profile one for Bo XiLai

They heard their people, they understand the frustrations and they acted. I can't see any other swifter justice dishes out anywhere else in comparison.

Even in UK with the huge scandal on allowances reimbursement with the MPs and the Lords...there was no adequate punishment and I wonder why.

On the ground, I can share that the recent grind down on showy government dinners and entertainment is indeed true and not a show as most international hotels would report back that there is a slowdown in bookings from government agencies in comparison to past years

The dieheart critiques will continue to bash China, the moderates understand and like the direction they are going with their governance

China's economy is too big to fail and the bubble is still a bubble that is treatable if the right and firm steps are taken and the potential is realized

I am truly sorry it has already burst in the USA ...many of my friends have suffered in recent years in the states and I hope politically they get it right to correct it.

Ordinary people are being played around with their lives when governments act like it's their right to dictate party lines along with government policies ...sad.

The ancient Greeks taught us about hubris and how destructive hubris is to human endeavors.

The Chinese missed that one too, hubris. You are full of it.

The CCP and you believe it can control a $22 trillion property market bubble? The equally huge bank credit bubble? The shadow banking system out of control huge debt? The local government illicit and already defaulting debt that amounts to as much as a third of GDP? CCP corruption is thousands of times worse than any instance of Western corruption you can point to.

You kid yourselves.

Western and other governments around the world, global banks, global investment houses and the like have already begun to draw plans for a global economy post-crash CCP-PRC economy. Such planning began only this year, as the myth of the CCP's economy being invincible has suddenly become starkly apparent.

You're in for the shock of your life. All of you.

Yes I guess doing nothing equates to good governance in your books

If everyone in the world gave up at the first sight of trouble, there is no leadership.

Credit is due when the current Chinese govt is trying to do something to rein it in and make it better.

They may not be the government in 10 years to resolve the bubble, but they have jump start the need for action to make sure it does not get worse and the world benefits from that.

Far better in my books than a whole lot of lawmakers who made a decision to make a decision later in a few months.

That's weak leadership at its best..I will keep a lookout for the case study at the next Harvard Business Review on communication and negotiation failures at top leadership levels and it's impact on creditability

[Publicus]

As for the point of corruption, I ask you state a comparison point by point on real data with western democratic states

Since Xi & Li came into government, 129 senior government officials have been investigated and have jail sentences handed out including the most high profile one for Bo XiLai

They heard their people, they understand the frustrations and they acted. I can't see any other swifter justice dishes out anywhere else in comparison.

Even in UK with the huge scandal on allowances reimbursement with the MPs and the Lords...there was no adequate punishment and I wonder why.

On the ground, I can share that the recent grind down on showy government dinners and entertainment is indeed true and not a show as most international hotels would report back that there is a slowdown in bookings from government agencies in comparison to past years

The dieheart critiques will continue to bash China, the moderates understand and like the direction they are going with their governance

China's economy is too big to fail and the bubble is still a bubble that is treatable if the right and firm steps are taken and the potential is realized

I am truly sorry it has already burst in the USA ...many of my friends have suffered in recent years in the states and I hope politically they get it right to correct it.

Ordinary people are being played around with their lives when governments act like it's their right to dictate party lines along with government policies ...sad.

The ancient Greeks taught us about hubris and how destructive hubris is to human endeavors.

The Chinese missed that one too, hubris. You are full of it.

The CCP and you believe it can control a $22 trillion property market bubble? The equally huge bank credit bubble? The shadow banking system out of control huge debt? The local government illicit and already defaulting debt that amounts to as much as a third of GDP? CCP corruption is thousands of times worse than any instance of Western corruption you can point to.

You kid yourselves.

Western and other governments around the world, global banks, global investment houses and the like have already begun to draw plans for a global economy post-crash CCP-PRC economy. Such planning began only this year, as the myth of the CCP's economy being invincible has suddenly become starkly apparent.

You're in for the shock of your life. All of you.

Yes I guess doing nothing equates to good governance in your books

If everyone in the world gave up at the first sight of trouble, there is no leadership.

Credit is due when the current Chinese govt is trying to do something to rein it in and make it better.

They may not be the government in 10 years to resolve the bubble, but they have jump start the need for action to make sure it does not get worse and the world benefits from that.

Far better in my books than a whole lot of lawmakers who made a decision to make a decision later in a few months.

That's weak leadership at its best..I will keep a lookout for the case study at the next Harvard Business Review on communication and negotiation failures at top leadership levels and it's impact on creditability

A bubble never ends well.

And the CCP's economy and financial system has several of them, to include local government massive debt defaults throughout the PRC. Each bubble is huge, enormous, due to the massive distortions and distending of the CCP's command and corrupt economy and financial system over an extended period of time, i.e., decades.

Don't you know what you're saying? That Marxist-Leninist-Maoist ideologues who have superimposed Deng Xiao Peng's oxymoron "market socialism" with Chinese characteristics on the political economy are going to accomplish what never has been done before, i.e., manage several soaring, enormous bubbles back down to the ground without popping?

My god.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Publicus

[Scott]

This has nothing directly to do with this topic, but those interested in China might find this link which is from the gay sub-forum of interest.

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/how-one-man-tricked-china-into-building-giant-dong/

[LawrenceChee]

Never described in any of my posts that a bubble would end well or the bubble would be managed to zero effect.

The CCP is an imperfect government like any others around the world and decidedly in economic field have made a decision to move ahead and reduce the effects of the bubble and create a more sustainable economic model for its people

That is the right direction to go and having the right political courage to make positive changes.

Not one country can sustain a failure on any of the large economies around be it China, Japan, Germany , UK or USA the world without having an ill effect on is own citizens.

Correctly any country or government that believes in diversifying from china investments or assets is the right thing to do and in its best interests should do so.

Similarly those that believe a closer collaboration is healthy should also do so.

[butterlimbo]

Prez Obama ordered all CCP Confucius Institutes' teaching personnel in the United States to have to return to the CCP-PRC to get visa renewals. No more going to the US Embassy in Canada or in Mexico, whichever is more convenient geographically - or even to Venezuela or to or a US Embassy in a Caribbean country etc.

That is interesting, In the US the President does personally decide how visa issues should be handled?

Do you have any link or source that explains this issue further?

Ask and ye shall receive.

If you think or believe the president of the United States doesn't know anything about this, you'd have to think again about that.

State Dpt. Targets 'Confucius Institute' Teachers

Dozens of Chinese teachers at Confucius Institutes in the United States could be forced to leave by June 30 due to a State Department directive, the head of the institute’s Beijing headquarters said on Thursday.

The directive, issued May 17, was sent to universities that sponsor the nonprofit institutes that promote Chinese language and culture overseas.

What also caught universities by surprise is the fact that the directive says Confucius Institutes should obtain U.S. accreditation in order to continue to accept foreign scholars and professors as teachers.

"The department is reviewing the academic viability of the Confucius Institutes. Based on the department's preliminary review, it is not evident that those institutes are US-accredited," the directive states.

http://newamericamedia.org/2012/05/chinese-teachers-may-be-forced-to-leave-after-state-department-directive.php

looks like you got something wrong- thanks member folium i learned the following

" According to China Daily USA, on May 20, the head of Confucius Institute headquarters in China wrote to her U.S. university partners that she hoped that the project would not be affected or halted by the directive. Lerner met with Chinese officials for a “candid” talk, and within 24 hours of this consultation, a revised policy directive was sent out on May 25.

As a result, no Chinese teacher will be forced to leave the country, and no accreditation is required for the institutes. China Daily USA even gloated that the State Department allowed Chinese officials a sneak peek of the revised document before it came out."

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/06/13/the-state-departments-confusion-over-confucius-institutes/

Is that true?looks like o no Chinese teacher ever left and had really go back to China to re apply for a visa. totally different from your story.

Your article has also nothing that it was Obama himself who had ordered that the Confucius Institute staff must left the country like you said before.

I would be interested in the legal aspect of it. Does in the USA the president really have the power to make such decisions or isn't that much more in the hand of other institutions and visa regulation defined by existing laws?

[butterlimbo]

This has nothing directly to do with this topic, but those interested in China might find this link which is from the gay sub-forum of interest.

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/how-one-man-tricked-china-into-building-giant-dong/

looks like something 13 years old might think its funny.

[boomerangutang]

When I saw mention of Confucius, it brought to mind the following:

A Chinese made movie about Confucius was made about the same time as the movie Avatar was made in the US. Avatar, btw, is the highest grossing movie ever, and was eagerly anticipated in the world's most populous country.

A mere two weeks in to Avatar's run in China, it was pulled from all cinemas there. In its place was put the Confucius movie. Any one familiar with the Avatar movie (armed uprising by oppressed) and with Beijing's top-down paranoid control will know why that happened.

[SinglePot]

This has nothing directly to do with this topic, but those interested in China might find this link which is from the gay sub-forum of interest.

http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/how-one-man-tricked-china-into-building-giant-dong/

looks like something 13 years old might think its funny.

Made me laugh.

Does the top rotate like the BT Tower in London and those plastic 'Rabbit' things do?

[SinglePot]

Here is how the top-down control from Beijing is implemented:

The State Council.

"The State Council is the cabinet which oversees China's vast government machine.

It sits at the top of a complex bureaucracy of commissions and ministries and is responsible for making sure party policy gets implemented from the national to the local level.

In theory it answers to the National People's Congress, but more often the State Council submits legislation and measures which the NPC then approves.

The State Council's most important roles are to draft and manage the national economic plan and the state budget, giving it decision-making powers over almost every aspect of people's lives. It is also responsible for law and order.

The full council meets once a month, but the more influential standing committee comes together more often, sometimes twice a week.

This committee is made up of the country's premier, four vice-premiers, state councillors and the secretary-general."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/china_politics/government/html/8.stm

[butterlimbo]

When I saw mention of Confucius, it brought to mind the following:

A Chinese made movie about Confucius was made about the same time as the movie Avatar was made in the US. Avatar, btw, is the highest grossing movie ever, and was eagerly anticipated in the world's most populous country.

A mere two weeks in to Avatar's run in China, it was pulled from all cinemas there. In its place was put the Confucius movie. Any one familiar with the Avatar movie (armed uprising by oppressed) and with Beijing's top-down paranoid control will know why that happened.

Was the movies shown in the US, the Confucius movie i mean? And if yes, for how many weeks and in how many cinemas?

edit:

did a quick fact check. Avatar wasn't pulled at all and certainly not from ALL Cinemas. the screening of the 2D version was lowered in favour of the Confuzius movie release. that had no impact on the screening of the 3d Avatar version. it wasn't "pulled".

Edited October 18, 2013 by butterlimbo