Changing China Set to Shake World Economy, Again

[Publicus]

For a moment I was almost smoked into thinking you were describing a work site in Chiang Mai where they are building yet the next condo or Moobaan for an unknown clientele

Happens lots in countries with a huge workforce ...it's called job creation since not every one can be an inspector.

I wonder if this is the same I saw at a hotel worksite in the big apple ...lots of talking and big ideas floated around of what if they were the boss but hardly any work done...although I must admit there are those who are born with he gift of the gab :-)

Job creation?!

I said building construction sites I saw in the CCP-PRC have around 6-8 workers at each one - pay is low and demand is high because of all the construction going on. There are jobs but not enough workers.

Because there's no market economics to the labor force, too few workers in construction has no impact on wages. Wages stay low no matter what. So low paying construction jobs remain low paying which means they remain uncompetitive. I haven't seen data, but it seems to me construction companies have maybe 20% of the site workers they need.

The one child policy is now adversely impacting the workforce in general because the number of young working age people is small, too few, to meet labor market demand at the macro level, which poses a larger much more serious problem.

As to the "gift of the gab" you refer to at some construction sites in NYC, you must be talking about the Irish (which ethnicity I am not). You're certainly not talking about the Chinese.

[LawrenceChee]

For a moment I was almost smoked into thinking you were describing a work site in Chiang Mai where they are building yet the next condo or Moobaan for an unknown clientele

Happens lots in countries with a huge workforce ...it's called job creation since not every one can be an inspector.

I wonder if this is the same I saw at a hotel worksite in the big apple ...lots of talking and big ideas floated around of what if they were the boss but hardly any work done...although I must admit there are those who are born with he gift of the gab :-)

Job creation?!

I said building construction sites I saw in the CCP-PRC have around 6-8 workers at each one - pay is low and demand is high because of all the construction going on. There are jobs but not enough workers.

Because there's no market economics to the labor force, too few workers in construction has no impact on wages. Wages stay low no matter what. So low paying construction jobs remain low paying which means they remain uncompetitive. I haven't seen data, but it seems to me construction companies have maybe 20% of the site workers they need.

The one child policy is now adversely impacting the workforce in general because the number of young working age people is small, too few, to meet labor market demand at the macro level, which poses a larger much more serious problem.

As to the "gift of the gab" you refer to at some construction sites in NYC, you must be talking about the Irish (which ethnicity I am not). You're certainly not talking about the Chinese.

Without sounding rude, if u saw 6-8 workers at the site it cannot be building anything significant.

If u head down to the sites where they are building more of the "useless" infrastructure? I have yet to see a labor crunch.

If there is a labor crunch, it's more at the factories where increasing salaries demands which are unmet are causing a rift between the owners and the workers. I blame this half / half on some owners who are out to make a quick buck at the expense of the workers ignorance and the other on foreign companies who have forgetting all their laws when they operate in china thinking by god's law everything should be cheap.

The one child child policy is strictly not one child if you can afford to pay the levy and needed to taken into perspective. At the time when the law was passed, china was an agro country with no economic might and allowing more children may mean famine for the country and social unrest.

As the examples around the world show, tweaking population growth and economic growth is a hard experiment and I don't think china is alone in labor crunch or aging issues as every country is working on the same issue on how to provide for the elderly in the best way possible for a good life in retirement.

Who knows maybe with an acute labor crunch we will finally be able to convince the western backpackers to work at the sites at the back of a big govt campaign to teach English.

I am not sure it was not the Irish as they didn't had a bottle in their hands. :-) I would have recognize them from miles apart as they normally charm the woman off too !

[Publicus]

For a moment I was almost smoked into thinking you were describing a work site in Chiang Mai where they are building yet the next condo or Moobaan for an unknown clientele

Happens lots in countries with a huge workforce ...it's called job creation since not every one can be an inspector.

I wonder if this is the same I saw at a hotel worksite in the big apple ...lots of talking and big ideas floated around of what if they were the boss but hardly any work done...although I must admit there are those who are born with he gift of the gab :-)

Job creation?!

I said building construction sites I saw in the CCP-PRC have around 6-8 workers at each one - pay is low and demand is high because of all the construction going on. There are jobs but not enough workers.

Because there's no market economics to the labor force, too few workers in construction has no impact on wages. Wages stay low no matter what. So low paying construction jobs remain low paying which means they remain uncompetitive. I haven't seen data, but it seems to me construction companies have maybe 20% of the site workers they need.

The one child policy is now adversely impacting the workforce in general because the number of young working age people is small, too few, to meet labor market demand at the macro level, which poses a larger much more serious problem.

As to the "gift of the gab" you refer to at some construction sites in NYC, you must be talking about the Irish (which ethnicity I am not). You're certainly not talking about the Chinese.

Without sounding rude, if u saw 6-8 workers at the site it cannot be building anything significant.

If u head down to the sites where they are building more of the "useless" infrastructure? I have yet to see a labor crunch.

If there is a labor crunch, it's more at the factories where increasing salaries demands which are unmet are causing a rift between the owners and the workers. I blame this half / half on some owners who are out to make a quick buck at the expense of the workers ignorance and the other on foreign companies who have forgetting all their laws when they operate in china thinking by god's law everything should be cheap.

The one child child policy is strictly not one child if you can afford to pay the levy and needed to taken into perspective. At the time when the law was passed, china was an agro country with no economic might and allowing more children may mean famine for the country and social unrest.

As the examples around the world show, tweaking population growth and economic growth is a hard experiment and I don't think china is alone in labor crunch or aging issues as every country is working on the same issue on how to provide for the elderly in the best way possible for a good life in retirement.

Who knows maybe with an acute labor crunch we will finally be able to convince the western backpackers to work at the sites at the back of a big govt campaign to teach English.

I am not sure it was not the Irish as they didn't had a bottle in their hands. :-) I would have recognize them from miles apart as they normally charm the woman off too !

Enough about construction.

You talk about "tweaking" population growth? In the PRChina?!

China and India are aberration countries, to state it mildly. They are in a bizarre global category of their own. Only two countries have a population of more than a billion - China and India. The US, geographically the same size as the PRChina, is third most populous at only 330 million. So come on now, 'cause nobody "tweaks" population growth in China or India. Only something as radical as the CCP's one child policy can impact population in countries such as China or India, and of course India doesn't have it.

Yeah, the one child policy over time has an impact, but a negative one. One twentysomething PRChinese suggested I think about the impact of the policy over a hundred years, which is the old Chinese thinking so it made me laugh - Asians don't respond well to being laughed at, but so what. Modern PRChinese anyway have become the same as Americans, i.e., they think in terms of decades.

Because of the one child policy, there already aren't enough young people in the labor market to meet the demands the economy places on it. Moreover, today, there are three young people working to support every five retirees. By 2030 there will be two working for every five retirees. Et cetera. Then the ratio will invert. So then where will the CCP-PRC be? I could be cynical to say that's why the government still isn't providing socialized health and medical programs.

And yes, I'm well aware that outside the metro centers families can and do have more than one child, typically two. Yes, they have to pay a fine but you well know all but a few of the families that have more than one child can pay almost any fine the government determines. That variation of the one child policy does not compensate for the demographic deficit of young people that the CCP-PRC will have indefinitely, and which will worsen as the years get further out.

Good luck with that.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Publicus

[boomerangutang]

I find it hard to believe that there aren't enough workers for construction jobs. However, I have seen how Chinese bosses will pay as achingly little as they can get away with. In Chiang Rai, if a boss can get a pick-up truck full of hill tribers for Bt.160 per 8 hour day, he'll do it, ....rather than pay a poverty wage of Bt.180 or 200/day. I employ hill tribers, but not for less than Bt.350/day, because anything less than that is borderline-criminal. I also assist my workers with extras, like providing their lunches, letting them use my motorbikes, buying them cheap cell-phones, paying for their kids to go on field trips, etc. Can you imagine a Chinese employer doing such things for his/her workers?

Though China's 1-Child-Per-Family policy has its problems, I still applaud Chinese authorities for trying to do something to address abject overpopulation. The problems with allowing as many babies as possible (like many other countries allow), would have even graver consequences (than population control) in the long run.

[Publicus]

The shanghai free trade zone opened today.

It allows companies to set up in 4 days to get their licenses instead of a month or more. Yuan convertibility and banks can do offshore trade and fund transfers

A very good pilot program for foreign companies in the world 2nd biggest economy.

As mention in my previous posts months back, this allows china to take another step and experiment in the restructure of its economy

Shanghai Free Trade Zone: As Good as It Sounds?

But don’t get your hopes up for real economic or political change in China: Analysts worry that the project will be but a misguided policy that exacerbates financial woes and further encourages corrupt business.

Cheng Xiaonong, a Chinese economist who used to edit the academic journal Modern China Studies, said that the idea that foreign investment will flood into China because of this zone is “outdated,” and that a lot of money may actually be Chinese funds being taken out and then brought back into the country.

Frank Xie, an economist who regularly comments in the overseas Chinese press, said "The regime relies on control of the economy to maintain stability and their grasp on political power, so it’s not likely that they will relinquish so much control over the economy by breaking up state monopolies,”

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/298352-shanghai-free-trade-zone-as-good-as-it-sounds/

I would add that the Epoch Times, which published this incisive story and is based in New York City, is operated by Chinese abroad who reject the CCP-PRC. It is published in 17 languages in 36 countries. Being extraordinarily well connected in the PRChina, they have excellent and original information, in addition to consulting Chinese abroad who share their own well connected criticisms of the CCP.

The above is the realistic analysis no one will ever get from the CCP. The Epoch Times is banned in the PRC by the CCP, to include of course internet access.

[LawrenceChee]

The shanghai free trade zone opened today.

It allows companies to set up in 4 days to get their licenses instead of a month or more. Yuan convertibility and banks can do offshore trade and fund transfers

A very good pilot program for foreign companies in the world 2nd biggest economy.

As mention in my previous posts months back, this allows china to take another step and experiment in the restructure of its economy

Shanghai Free Trade Zone: As Good as It Sounds?

But don’t get your hopes up for real economic or political change in China: Analysts worry that the project will be but a misguided policy that exacerbates financial woes and further encourages corrupt business.

Cheng Xiaonong, a Chinese economist who used to edit the academic journal Modern China Studies, said that the idea that foreign investment will flood into China because of this zone is “outdated,” and that a lot of money may actually be Chinese funds being taken out and then brought back into the country.

Frank Xie, an economist who regularly comments in the overseas Chinese press, said "The regime relies on control of the economy to maintain stability and their grasp on political power, so it’s not likely that they will relinquish so much control over the economy by breaking up state monopolies,”

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/298352-shanghai-free-trade-zone-as-good-as-it-sounds/

I would add that the Epoch Times, which published this incisive story and is based in New York City, is operated by Chinese abroad who reject the CCP-PRC. It is published in 17 languages in 36 countries. Being extraordinarily well connected in the PRChina, they have excellent and original information, in addition to consulting Chinese abroad who share their own well connected criticisms of the CCP.

The above is the realistic analysis no one will ever get from the CCP. The Epoch Times is banned in the PRC by the CCP, to include of course internet access.

For the sake of opinions, there will always be 2 camps and differing views

Those that have a stick with China and hope that everything and every new policy will fail and they can have a good laugh

There are also the moderates who know that for the sake of everyone else that china gets it right as the consequences worldwide is going to be as close to a collapse as one will see.

I have seen many right moves made in the right direction over the last few months with the leadership

- Yuan convertibility finally in FTZ

- Foreign Bank Operations

- Clamping of gift giving

- Closure of labor camps

- Experiments of duty free shopping

- Offshore Transfers of funds

- Cooling of Property Mkt measures

- Reviewing one child policy

- Changes made to the promotion status

- High profile corruption cases dealt with

Again you can be on both sides and think it is cosmetic show play or applaud the govt of knowing its past policies is not the best and needs tweaking and they have the guts to set about the change and do it instead of wrangling in a Parliament House and having nothing decided or done.

As for political freedom and the freedom of speech and press, it's hard to put a real value to that as there are some who are adamant you need it to enjoy the quality of life and humanity and you also find a lot who really don't care about it and don't think its critical in life to have it and are happy about it.

There is a load of freedom in most western countries and some of the publications and programs on TV reminds me of bull crap in the street ..no quality and substance and hardly contributing to anything useful. But yes they have the freedom to put it out there so that anyone who wants to see it can. I am unconvinced it serves the society in anyway except for the fact it am be said and done.

I have seen enough indifference especially in Asia and cynic views in Singapore, HK, Taiwan, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia to understand the vast majority of Asians think their government is inept and corrupt even in squeaky clean Singapore ...they don't bother about the politics unless a policy badly affects them in a financial way.

The moderates know for the future ahead, a successful china is as important as the rest of the developed world and it's new and baby steps for a giant to take to get it right.

I will cheer for it rather than condemn it to failure as it affects too many regionally and globally to fail.

[Publicus]

It's the Communist party that is the failure.

The CCP is a censoring, punishing one party dictatorship of elite corrupt kleptocrats who believe in a command economy and whose belief in settling old scores against neighbors and foreign devils imperils the world.

Absolutist rule belongs in the History books. Most absolutist rule is in the History books, to include especially the former USSR.

China always has been an elitist dictatorship, as your ingrained, inbred views clearly reveal. The History books keep getting more and more pages added to them, as absolute rule continues to fail.

Absolutism in China is next. You yourselves guarantee it.

[LawrenceChee]

It's the Communist party that is the failure.

The CCP is a censoring, punishing one party dictatorship of elite corrupt kleptocrats who believe in a command economy and whose belief in settling old scores against neighbors and foreign devils imperils the world.

Absolutist rule belongs in the History books. Most absolutist rule is in the History books, to include especially the former USSR.

China always has been an elitist dictatorship, as your ingrained, inbred views clearly reveal. The History books keep getting more and more pages added to them, as absolute rule continues to fail.

Absolutism in China is next. You yourselves guarantee it.

I suppose the Chinese government could pander to a western perspective and have the activists start another party call CCCP or heck start as many as tho like ..enough animal symbols to go around in China from pandas to furry birds funded and supported by anyone who like the idea of a democratic country and have the Chinese folks vote for it either CCP or CCCP or as many parties in a grand free election style.

But it will never satisfy the doomsayers or the human rights activists who would claim farmer Li didnt vote as he was up in the mountains or was harassed , some boxes went missing or some vote centre tabulation was not counted properly.

I guess you can never please everyone.

Thank god they still have the attractions open tomorrow in the museums and you can still visit the panda zoos in Sichuan ...for all of the evilness and censorship, they know it's still important to have the animals fed and the museums open :-)

[Publicus]

It's the Communist party that is the failure.

The CCP is a censoring, punishing one party dictatorship of elite corrupt kleptocrats who believe in a command economy and whose belief in settling old scores against neighbors and foreign devils imperils the world.

Absolutist rule belongs in the History books. Most absolutist rule is in the History books, to include especially the former USSR.

China always has been an elitist dictatorship, as your ingrained, inbred views clearly reveal. The History books keep getting more and more pages added to them, as absolute rule continues to fail.

Absolutism in China is next. You yourselves guarantee it.

I suppose the Chinese government could pander to a western perspective and have the activists start another party call CCCP or heck start as many as tho like ..enough animal symbols to go around in China from pandas to furry birds funded and supported by anyone who like the idea of a democratic country and have the Chinese folks vote for it either CCP or CCCP or as many parties in a grand free election style.

But it will never satisfy the doomsayers or the human rights activists who would claim farmer Li didnt vote as he was up in the mountains or was harassed , some boxes went missing or some vote centre tabulation was not counted properly.

I guess you can never please everyone.

Thank god they still have the attractions open tomorrow in the museums and you can still visit the panda zoos in Sichuan ...for all of the evilness and censorship, they know it's still important to have the animals fed and the museums open :-)

Animals and more animals.

Admiral Dennis Blair Ret, when he was US Pacific commander at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, visited Beijing one time for three days for a series of conferences.

At the end of the first day Blair was stopped by foreign media to ask what was accomplished.

Adm Blair said, "I'm not sure. They talked a lot about animals."

You people just don't get it.

You have a 5000 year culture of elite authoritarianism. You don't know democracy. You don't know it, don't understand it, don't comprehend it.

We know authoritarian elitism. We've defeated it in war after war started by it. You traditional people don't know democracy.

The CCP-PRC is the only government of the world to have a Nobel Peace Laureate, Dr Lui Xiaobo (2010), the first of the CCP-PRC's two Nobel Laureates, locked in prison for 11 years because he openly and consistently advocated a gradual, eventual, controlled, peaceful transition to democracy.

In the CCP-PRC Dr Lui is a seditious subversive, an enemy of the state and of the People of the People's Republic.

Yet there are increasing numbers of People in the People's Republic who want democracy, which finally would provide accountability to the leaders there.

Can't have that though, can we?!

A ballot box might get lost somewhere. There might be more than one political party. There might be an open debate. China could have participatory politics and government.

Nope. Prohibited.

For one thing, it's Western.

[LawrenceChee]

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/united-states

This article bears a different angle ...I respectfully ask the mods not to strike it out as it presents a differing perspective for people to consider before thinking china is the root of all evil.

USA has the highest % of its own citizens behind bar in the world surpassing one million and the higher proportion of youths behind bar without parole.

Not one country or government body is perfect. The lack or fear of understanding prevents further progress in relations.

If the CCP reforms at its own speed and is moving in the right direction, would one give credit to them in the future ?

And again if they are that inept and is removed, I think there are academics and political analysts abound that cannot predict what will happen to China then and it's neighbors.

[SinglePot]

Yep.

The photo in the OP says it all.

Beijing. The City without a Soul.

Rampant materialism, dog eat dog.

No style.

See how long it takes you in a Beijing bank to send the max daily limit to an overseas account.

500 Bucks. And the bank clerk is moving and stamping pieces of paper like a whirling dervish.

Toxic nation, and their money is frankly sordid.

[folium]

I find it hard to believe that there aren't enough workers for construction jobs. However, I have seen how Chinese bosses will pay as achingly little as they can get away with. In Chiang Rai, if a boss can get a pick-up truck full of hill tribers for Bt.160 per 8 hour day, he'll do it, ....rather than pay a poverty wage of Bt.180 or 200/day. I employ hill tribers, but not for less than Bt.350/day, because anything less than that is borderline-criminal. I also assist my workers with extras, like providing their lunches, letting them use my motorbikes, buying them cheap cell-phones, paying for their kids to go on field trips, etc. Can you imagine a Chinese employer doing such things for his/her workers?

Though China's 1-Child-Per-Family policy has its problems, I still applaud Chinese authorities for trying to do something to address abject overpopulation. The problems with allowing as many babies as possible (like many other countries allow), would have even graver consequences (than population control) in the long run.

You are a tad too charitable re One Child Policy.

One Child Policy (OCP) in China was probably too late in the day (TFR,total fertility rate, dropped from 5.5 to 2.7 pre OCP's introduction in 1979), too brutal and quite probably unnecessary if the CPC could just trust its people to do the right thing. A comparison of TFR between Thailand and China from 1960 to date is very illuminating.

http://www.google.co...dl=en&ind=false

Where the CPC didn't impose OCP as a test case is further illuminating:

http://www.dailymoti...cy-success_news

Globally TFR is falling fast but we will still have to work our way through the reproductive years of the current crop of children.

[SinglePot]

Yeah, so, as I was saying, let's get current on the facts and with reality.

And Now China Has A Gigantic Obesity Problem, Too

Reuters

China's economic prosperity has led to a health crisis growing with alarming rates in the country obesity.

19 million Chinese are considered obese and millions more are overweight.

More and more fat reduction hospitals are springing up all over the country using fire treatments, acupuncture and cupping treatment to help obese Chinese lose the weight

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/china-obesity-2010-6?op=1#ixzz2fT63K5NQ

I like the headlines you use to capture attention.

At 19 million obese Chinese, against total Chinese numbering 1.5 billion, the percentage of obese people is thus less than 1.3%. that would make it near the absolute bottom of obesity incidence rates in the world.

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2228rank.html

10 percent of the Chinese population have diabetes, and the incidence is rising fast.

One child policy accelerates the ageing demographic seen in western countries and therefore chronic diseases associated with ageing becoming increasingly prevalent.

KFC and McDonalds aren't helping them either.

Major economic problems for CCP-PRC is health service provision and an ageing work force.

You think the West has got it bad? How much of developed countries budget goes on health costs?

This will literally cripple the CCP-PRC. Unless they take the pragmatic approach of ...well let some starve. (If you know what I mean).

If you want the medical literature on the diabetes epidemic in China I will post it.

[folium]

China and India are aberration countries, to state it mildly. They are in a bizarre global category of their own. Only two countries have a population of more than a billion - China and India. The US, geographically the same size as the PRChina, is third most populous at only 330 million. So come on now, 'cause nobody "tweaks" population growth in China or India. Only something as radical as the CCP's one child policy can impact population in countries such as China or India, and of course India doesn't have it.

Yeah, the one child policy over time has an impact, but a negative one. One twentysomething PRChinese suggested I think about the impact of the policy over a hundred years, which is the old Chinese thinking so it made me laugh - Asians don't respond well to being laughed at, but so what. Modern PRChinese anyway have become the same as Americans, i.e., they think in terms of decades.

Because of the one child policy, there already aren't enough young people in the labor market to meet the demands the economy places on it. Moreover, today, there are three young people working to support every five retirees. By 2030 there will be two working for every five retirees. Et cetera. Then the ratio will invert. So then where will the CCP-PRC be? I could be cynical to say that's why the government still isn't providing socialized health and medical programs.

And yes, I'm well aware that outside the metro centers families can and do have more than one child, typically two. Yes, they have to pay a fine but you well know all but a few of the families that have more than one child can pay almost any fine the government determines. That variation of the one child policy does not compensate for the demographic deficit of young people that the CCP-PRC will have indefinitely, and which will worsen as the years get further out.

Good luck with that.

Not sure what you mean by aberration. China & India have always hosted the lion's share of the global population, throughout history, courtesy of the benefits of the Ganges, Yangtze, Yellow etc river systems.

The USA, whilst larger in area than PRC, largely due to Russia's misguided sale of its western outpost, is a demographic pygmy that has only broken into the big boy league in recent history. Its current 3rd place ranking is unlikely to last long as Indonesia, Brazil, Pakistan, Nigeria etc are hot on its tail. Russia, as the largest country by size on the planet, has a third of the US population and is already in a state of natural decrease courtesy of alcohol, HIV/AIDS and enhanced female status/opportunities.

China's and Thailand's TFR trajectories follow very similar flightpaths, both are now well below replacement level and thus both will experience ageing and shrinking populations in the medium-term outlook. Gender selection courtesy of cheap/available ultra-sounds, and selective abortion is common throughout Asia and into the Caucasus region also. So a lack of females is another feature that will have to be managed.

[Publicus]

Aberration is a kind word - in private conversation I put it much more starkly. I'll extend my statement euphemistically to say aberrations of nature. Still, aberration is not the word I use in private conversation.

It matters not what rivers and river valleys India and China have, they have extreme populations that make their countries unmanageable to the point that the Chinese remain convinced they need dictatorship and the democratic former colony India remains unmanageable. Now that each is developing, each is devouring natural resources at a dangerous rate.

It's impossible to know what 1,300,000,000 people are until one lives there for an appreciable period of time. It's absurd.

Half the world's population lives in Asia as do two-thirds of its poor. This is not good for anyone.

The population of the United State is in fine shape and trends are good. I doubt other countries will be surpassing the US, but for the several countries next after it, significantly increased populations are not what they want or need. That too would be a hindrance to them, to state it mildly, and to the rest of us.

The CCP-PRC male - female ratio is 116 to 100 so the problem there is severe and it is a continuing one.

[LawrenceChee]

Yep.

The photo in the OP says it all.

Beijing. The City without a Soul.

Rampant materialism, dog eat dog.

No style.

See how long it takes you in a Beijing bank to send the max daily limit to an overseas account.

500 Bucks. And the bank clerk is moving and stamping pieces of paper like a whirling dervish.

Toxic nation, and their money is frankly sordid.

For such a historic city to be deemed without soul means you just could be meandering at the wrong places..lots of little spots here and there which is full of culture filled with real northerners who are immensely hospitable to the right crowds.

As for the bank, for the right deposit amount, I can link you with the private bankers at ICBC they count pretty quick and the tea served is excellent brew while you wait.

[Scott]

I have not been to Beijing since shortly after the Tiananmen square incident (not wishing to get into a discussion about the terminology of the event). At that time, there was a great deal of poverty in China and very few cars. The city was fascinating. Very different, very mystical and the people were extraordinarily friendly.

I had a love - hate relationship with China. I found the public mannerism such as pushing, shoving, spitting etc. to be aggravating. But the people, when you met them were very warm and friendly. At that time, it was also quite safe, although, I was told that as a foreigner the police were never too far away.

[boomerangutang]

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/united-states

This article bears a different angle ...I respectfully ask the mods not to strike it out as it presents a differing perspective for people to consider before thinking china is the root of all evil.

USA has the highest % of its own citizens behind bar in the world surpassing one million and the higher proportion of youths behind bar without parole.

Not one country or government body is perfect. The lack or fear of understanding prevents further progress in relations.

If the CCP reforms at its own speed and is moving in the right direction, would one give credit to them in the future ?

And again if they are that inept and is removed, I think there are academics and political analysts abound that cannot predict what will happen to China then and it's neighbors.

Am not trying to excuse or justify high degree of incarceration in the US, but part of the reason is the effectiveness of its police and judicial system. I imagine Thailand is similar to China, in the sense that police are often inept/awol, and the judicial system operates subjectively. In doing so, many criminals aren't caught, and if they are, are let out the back door - for a pay-off and/or because they're from VIP families.

Pollution is a problem in China as it is nearly everywhere ww. Though Chinese boast about their strong economy, they revert to pretending they're 2nd rate in terms of pollution they generate. In other words, European countries are willing to sign treaties such as Kyoto, whereas China and India won't consider doing so, saying they're too poor to clean up (and they need to catch up with the west). The US didn't sign Kyoto for that reason, mainly. Yet the US is doing quite a bit to clean things up in their own backyard, such as mandating tougher emission standards for vehicles, utilities, etc. I've been to L.A. twice in the past 5 years, and each time the air was reasonably clear. Stars visible at night. Not bad for America's largest city, which foreigners like to knock, thinking it's so dirty. I haven't been to Beijing, but satellite photos of it look spooky, in terms of smog/dust covering.

[SinglePot]

Yep.

The photo in the OP says it all.

Beijing. The City without a Soul.

Rampant materialism, dog eat dog.

No style.

See how long it takes you in a Beijing bank to send the max daily limit to an overseas account.

500 Bucks. And the bank clerk is moving and stamping pieces of paper like a whirling dervish.

Toxic nation, and their money is frankly sordid.

For such a historic city to be deemed without soul means you just could be meandering at the wrong places..lots of little spots here and there which is full of culture filled with real northerners who are immensely hospitable to the right crowds.

As for the bank, for the right deposit amount, I can link you with the private bankers at ICBC they count pretty quick and the tea served is excellent brew while you wait.

We have had this discussion on other threads Mr Chee.

We agree to differ perhaps.

[SinglePot]

Subject of the OP is the Chinese economy.

Xi Jinping has the same issues that Obama has. Balancing the family budget.

CCP-PRC will do it their way.

Unfortunately the West is inextricably linked. Some would say through necessity.

Lawrence Chee knows the leverage.

The PRC is hierarchical. Some will have, some will not.

If Xi Jinping can offer 1.4 billion people equality of opportunity and health better than the West he is a good man.

[LawrenceChee]

Yep.

The photo in the OP says it all.

Beijing. The City without a Soul.

Rampant materialism, dog eat dog.

No style.

See how long it takes you in a Beijing bank to send the max daily limit to an overseas account.

500 Bucks. And the bank clerk is moving and stamping pieces of paper like a whirling dervish.

Toxic nation, and their money is frankly sordid.

For such a historic city to be deemed without soul means you just could be meandering at the wrong places..lots of little spots here and there which is full of culture filled with real northerners who are immensely hospitable to the right crowds.

As for the bank, for the right deposit amount, I can link you with the private bankers at ICBC they count pretty quick and the tea served is excellent brew while you wait.

We have had this discussion on other threads Mr Chee.

We agree to differ perhaps.

Sounds good to me ...difference in opinions is variety of life.

[LawrenceChee]

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/united-states

This article bears a different angle ...I respectfully ask the mods not to strike it out as it presents a differing perspective for people to consider before thinking china is the root of all evil.

USA has the highest % of its own citizens behind bar in the world surpassing one million and the higher proportion of youths behind bar without parole.

Not one country or government body is perfect. The lack or fear of understanding prevents further progress in relations.

If the CCP reforms at its own speed and is moving in the right direction, would one give credit to them in the future ?

And again if they are that inept and is removed, I think there are academics and political analysts abound that cannot predict what will happen to China then and it's neighbors.

Am not trying to excuse or justify high degree of incarceration in the US, but part of the reason is the effectiveness of its police and judicial system. I imagine Thailand is similar to China, in the sense that police are often inept/awol, and the judicial system operates subjectively. In doing so, many criminals aren't caught, and if they are, are let out the back door - for a pay-off and/or because they're from VIP families.

Pollution is a problem in China as it is nearly everywhere ww. Though Chinese boast about their strong economy, they revert to pretending they're 2nd rate in terms of pollution they generate. In other words, European countries are willing to sign treaties such as Kyoto, whereas China and India won't consider doing so, saying they're too poor to clean up (and they need to catch up with the west). The US didn't sign Kyoto for that reason, mainly. Yet the US is doing quite a bit to clean things up in their own backyard, such as mandating tougher emission standards for vehicles, utilities, etc. I've been to L.A. twice in the past 5 years, and each time the air was reasonably clear. Stars visible at night. Not bad for America's largest city, which foreigners like to knock, thinking it's so dirty. I haven't been to Beijing, but satellite photos of it look spooky, in terms of smog/dust covering.

Agree the air quality leaves much to be desired. A nation in the rise of manufacturing for the entire planet does take its toll on the air quality and I agree with you something must be done.

I am hoping that the Norwegian firm hired for the job will offer some fresh ideas and action plans to improve that. The Beijing municipality is really interested to get this right for everyone.

The sights from Jingshan Park is astounding and I miss standing there in the winter peering down at the a forbidden palace from a smog free day.

As for VIPs getting away from it, Bo's family judgements and the recent 10 year jail term slapped on the general son for taking part in an alleged rape is the right step in correcting the previous mistakes. I hope this continues in the right vein to restore public confidence although most Asians are born cynic in believing there is justice.

The article posted was more directed at the indiscriminately arrests happening in USA and the ease of use for solitary confinement as a punishment which is a concern for the human rights group. The statistics are concerning.

[SinglePot]

Chinese Dream is a poor copy of the American Dream.

It focuses on one aspect only. Money.

Industrial pollution of the environment is one example. There is a price to be paid for protection of the environment. It's a low priority issue for the leadership in Beijing. (Despite their claims to the contrary.)

Autocratic head of family in China has learnt his methods from the CCP leadership.

Big men?

[SinglePot]

Pollution.

Corruption.

Human Rights.

?

Whose winning at the Olympics?

China?

Fantastic.

[folium]

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/united-states

This article bears a different angle ...I respectfully ask the mods not to strike it out as it presents a differing perspective for people to consider before thinking china is the root of all evil.

USA has the highest % of its own citizens behind bar in the world surpassing one million and the higher proportion of youths behind bar without parole.

Not one country or government body is perfect. The lack or fear of understanding prevents further progress in relations.

If the CCP reforms at its own speed and is moving in the right direction, would one give credit to them in the future ?

And again if they are that inept and is removed, I think there are academics and political analysts abound that cannot predict what will happen to China then and it's neighbors.

Am not trying to excuse or justify high degree of incarceration in the US, but part of the reason is the effectiveness of its police and judicial system. I imagine Thailand is similar to China, in the sense that police are often inept/awol, and the judicial system operates subjectively. In doing so, many criminals aren't caught, and if they are, are let out the back door - for a pay-off and/or because they're from VIP families.

Pollution is a problem in China as it is nearly everywhere ww. Though Chinese boast about their strong economy, they revert to pretending they're 2nd rate in terms of pollution they generate. In other words, European countries are willing to sign treaties such as Kyoto, whereas China and India won't consider doing so, saying they're too poor to clean up (and they need to catch up with the west). The US didn't sign Kyoto for that reason, mainly. Yet the US is doing quite a bit to clean things up in their own backyard, such as mandating tougher emission standards for vehicles, utilities, etc. I've been to L.A. twice in the past 5 years, and each time the air was reasonably clear. Stars visible at night. Not bad for America's largest city, which foreigners like to knock, thinking it's so dirty. I haven't been to Beijing, but satellite photos of it look spooky, in terms of smog/dust covering.

Agree the air quality leaves much to be desired. A nation in the rise of manufacturing for the entire planet does take its toll on the air quality and I agree with you something must be done.

I am hoping that the Norwegian firm hired for the job will offer some fresh ideas and action plans to improve that. The Beijing municipality is really interested to get this right for everyone.

The sights from Jingshan Park is astounding and I miss standing there in the winter peering down at the a forbidden palace from a smog free day.

As for VIPs getting away from it, Bo's family judgements and the recent 10 year jail term slapped on the general son for taking part in an alleged rape is the right step in correcting the previous mistakes. I hope this continues in the right vein to restore public confidence although most Asians are born cynic in believing there is justice.

The article posted was more directed at the indiscriminately arrests happening in USA and the ease of use for solitary confinement as a punishment which is a concern for the human rights group. The statistics are concerning.

Interesting piece from the Economist comparing the wealth of politicians in the US and PRC.

"Many Americans grumble about the wealth of their politicians, but they are paupers compared with their Chinese counterparts. The 50 richest members of America's Congress are worth $1.6 billion in all. In China, the wealthiest 50 delegates to the National People's Congress, the rubber-stamp parliament, control $94.7 billion".

http://www.economist.com/news/china/21586883-wealthy-politicians

[SinglePot]

"For such a historic city to be deemed without soul means you just could be meandering at the wrong places..lots of little spots here and there which is full of culture filled with real northerners who are immensely hospitable to the right crowds."

Anyway, I'm in this really hospitable Mongolian restaurant in Beijing with my German friends Tom and Brigitte. Tom hangs about a bit and walks his dog. Brigitte is head of IT for BMW China.

"BMW sells more 'units' in China than the US or Germany."

"There's about 15 Chinese families who run the PRC."

Edited October 2, 2013 by SinglePot

[Netizen]

That 'half the size of NJ' analogy is conjecture to the 10th degree. Look at any recent satellite shot of any of China's cities, and you'll see them sprawling like giant squashed octopusus. You'll also see yellow and/or gray haze hovering over each metropolis. The answer is; a dire need lessen population growth coupled with sensible ways to handle the immense overpopulation.

There's a mention of less farmland. Actually, mankind can adapt, for the near future to less farmland, because of changing eating habits. Most people are steering towards fabricated/snack food-stuff and away from the types of foods their grandparents ate (real fruit, real veges, whole grains, etc). One example: Top Ramen is insanely popular all over Asia, and beyond. It contains more MSG than anything fresh. Asians are powered by MSG, caffeine, sugar, fermented sugars, and deep fried oil, with a bit of nicotine and hot pepper sauce mixed in for balance.

That's only because Asians have not been introduced to fine British cuisine. British stodge boiled, fried or baked.They would kill for it.

[SinglePot]

And the Chinese nouveau riche all want to send their children to English public schools to get educated.

Btw. If you don't know, the term 'public school' in England is easily confused. Far from being public, they are elite and require serious money.

[Netizen]

And the Chinese nouveau riche all want to send their children to English public schools to get educated.

Btw. If you don't know, the term 'public school' in England is easily confused. Far from being public, they are elite and require serious money.

99% of British public cannot afford a "Public" school education. Perhaps the next phase of British education will be British families sending their children to China for an affordable "Public" school education?

Edited October 3, 2013 by Netizen

[Scott]

Off-topic dialogue has been deleted. Please stay on topic.

Interesting observations were made, but the thread is starting to ramble and to get argumentative.