Foreigners may no longer require a teacher's license?

[phosphorescent]

Currently, passing the 4 TCT tests qualifies you to teach in Thailand, but the reality is that the tests are mainly nonsensical and don't improve the classroom skills of the teacher.

Tests are not designed to improve skills. They are designed to check that you have the relevant knowledge to do a job. Many people try to pass the TCT tests after reading a few online articles and act completely dumbfounded when they fail. Granted, the English in the tests is messed up but they are meant to be the culmination of continuous study over a prolonged period of time which if done right will absolutely improve the classroom skills and methods of those wishing to become teachers.

[rct99q]

Okay so my next question then is.......if they "relax" the rules and allow people with minimal qualifications (perhaps none at all) or things like a TEFL how will that affect the wages? Talking Government schools mostly, but perhaps university and private levels as well.

Seems to me if they lower the bar and instead of having 15 people with a Degree applying for the job they have 115 people applying with various qualifications (many of whom may work for less then the going rate) this seems to favor the schools more than the teachers.

it has been my experience here that regardless of qualifications (to a certain point) if someone is willing to do the job for less than the next person that gives them a leg up.

If this happens I see salaries dropping down to 15,000 baht similar to Philippine Teachers or others....maybe less as there will always be some person who speaks English who needs money...badly.

schools could possibly hire 3 or 4 "teachers" working 20-25 hours a week at say 12,000baht instead of 1 "teacher" working 15-20 hours a week for 35,000 baht (per month wages). They can cover 3 or 4 times the amount of classes reaching that many more students for about the same cost.
All the while improving the English levels of the students.....I think the Thais are onto something here.

[Scott]

Approximately 50 - 60 % of the native English speakers (or I should say Farang teachers), that apply when I run an ad do NOT have a Bachelor's degree. Most of them have been working at schools at the time they apply. Some have been able to get visas and a work permit (although that number seems to dwindle each year).

I don't know what the exact figures are, but there are a significant number of teachers who are less-than-legal in their employment. There are also a number of people who are legal, but who have, by hook or by crook, managed to get around the need for a degree and a Teacher's License.

[pastafarian]

Okay so my next question then is.......if they "relax" the rules and allow people with minimal qualifications (perhaps none at all) or things like a TEFL how will that affect the wages? Talking Government schools mostly, but perhaps university and private levels as well.

Seems to me if they lower the bar and instead of having 15 people with a Degree applying for the job they have 115 people applying with various qualifications (many of whom may work for less then the going rate) this seems to favor the schools more than the teachers.

it has been my experience here that regardless of qualifications (to a certain point) if someone is willing to do the job for less than the next person that gives them a leg up.

If this happens I see salaries dropping down to 15,000 baht similar to Philippine Teachers or others....maybe less as there will always be some person who speaks English who needs money...badly.

schools could possibly hire 3 or 4 "teachers" working 20-25 hours a week at say 12,000baht instead of 1 "teacher" working 15-20 hours a week for 35,000 baht (per month wages). They can cover 3 or 4 times the amount of classes reaching that many more students for about the same cost.

All the while improving the English levels of the students.....I think the Thais are onto something here.

I think it needs to be clarified that they may only be asked to relax their requirements back to how they were a few years ago, not to the point where any illiterate reprobate can teach. Because they've become much stricter, un-necessarily so, many teachers have left or are being refused permission to teach by the TCT which means schools are finding it difficult to find enough teachers, both foreign and Thai. There will still be quite stringent requirements but it is obvious their current ones are causing problems.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Currently, passing the 4 TCT tests qualifies you to teach in Thailand, but the reality is that the tests are mainly nonsensical and don't improve the classroom skills of the teacher.

Tests are not designed to improve skills. They are designed to check that you have the relevant knowledge to do a job. Many people try to pass the TCT tests after reading a few online articles and act completely dumbfounded when they fail. Granted, the English in the tests is messed up but they are meant to be the culmination of continuous study over a prolonged period of time which if done right will absolutely improve the classroom skills and methods of those wishing to become teachers.

Totally agree, it would actually attract those people that are interested in teaching and would certainly bring the numbers to make a difference. The way to go I think!! The way that I see it is that CELTA/TEFL and TESOL holders are infinitely more qualified than degree holders (non-educational degrees that is).

[Phuket electrician]

What do you do with those applications?

[pilm]

Please do not assume Thai graduates to be inferior to their western equivalent.

I've had many conversations with Thai graduates, with almost all their level of general knowledge makes 'abysmal' sound quite good.

When you point out something (such as that light travels faster than sound, with one graduate) you get 'no, you wrong, not happen like that' then they try to think of examples to prove you wrong.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Please do not assume Thai graduates to be inferior to their western equivalent.

I've had many conversations with Thai graduates, with almost all their level of general knowledge makes 'abysmal' sound quite good.

When you point out something (such as that light travels faster than sound, with one graduate) you get 'no, you wrong, not happen like that' then they try to think of examples to prove you wrong.

Thai degrees and master degrees are nowhere near the standard of Western degrees but the thing is, of what use are a majority of Western degrees??

[pilm]

what use are a majority of Western degrees??

Seems to make the difference between a WP with 12 month Extension of Stay and living a horrid life of Tourist Visa after Tourist Visa wondering if you're going to get the dreaded Red Stamp in the following month's visa run to Laos.... to many.

[pastafarian]

Please do not assume Thai graduates to be inferior to their western equivalent.

I've had many conversations with Thai graduates, with almost all their level of general knowledge makes 'abysmal' sound quite good.

When you point out something (such as that light travels faster than sound, with one graduate) you get 'no, you wrong, not happen like that' then they try to think of examples to prove you wrong.

The below is a quote from wikipedia and is absolutely spot-on!!!

'The acquired knowledge and competency of newly graduated teachers from the Rajaphat Universities at is often comparable to the level of an American senior high school graduation, a British A-level, a French Baccalauréat, or a German Abitur. Apart from the security of being a civil servant with guaranteed employment and a pension, and the extraordinary cultural respect for the profession, there is little incentive to choose a future as a teacher in a government school. As a result, most classes in secondary schools are overcrowded with often as many as sixty students in a classroom, a situation that continues to favour the rote system that is firmly anchored in Thai culture as the only method possible.'

[SICHONSTEVE]

what use are a majority of Western degrees??

Seems to make the difference between a WP with 12 month Extension of Stay and living a horrid life of Tourist Visa after Tourist Visa wondering if you're going to get the dreaded Red Stamp in the following month's visa run to Laos.... to many.

Granted, but what ACTUAL use are they in preparing for and aiding you in your job.

That is like buying a bus ticket to enable you to go where you want!! It makes it possible to do, that's all. I suppose that those with fake degrees are simply getting on the bus without paying for a ticket.

[Phuket electrician]

Although a good source of information it's out of date. Originally the Rajabhat was a teacher training college by royal decree, this no longer the case. Rajabhat is now a government funded university.

Thai secondary school classes in my experience are limited to 50.

[otherstuff1957]

What on earth are TOEIC, TCT and PGCE? I was thinking I get a TEFL or CELTA, have my degree legalized and off I go.

TOEIC - A test that is usually taken by students from non-English speaking countries when they wish to attend a university in the US/UK etc... The maximum score is 1000 points. The MOE or the TCT is now requiring teachers who aren't from the US/UK/Australia, NZ, Canada or Ireland to take the TOEIC and score at least 550.

TCT - Teachers' Council of Thailand. About 10 years ago they were given the task of licensing all teachers in Thailand, both Thai and Foreign. Some people think that they are inept, arbitrary and corrupt. Others describe them in less complimentary terms.

PGCE - I believe that this stands for Post Graduate Certificate in Education. This is the British term for becoming a qualified and licensed teacher. Just as in the US, getting a PGCE involves a year of studying and an internship during which you are mentored and observed by an experienced teacher.

[Phuket electrician]

As others have said any test is exactly that. It's not training it's a test of ability. The preparation for the test is the training.

[Slip]

Please do not assume Thai graduates to be inferior to their western equivalent.

I've had many conversations with Thai graduates, with almost all their level of general knowledge makes 'abysmal' sound quite good.

When you point out something (such as that light travels faster than sound, with one graduate) you get 'no, you wrong, not happen like that' then they try to think of examples to prove you wrong.

Well, if they're trying to think of examples to prove their points, they are at least, on the first rung of the critical thinking ladder, which according to research is about the same as a western undergraduate.

[pilm]

Granted, but what ACTUAL use are they in preparing for and aiding you in your job.

For someone who's 'teaching' here and has only got a 2 week teaching in Thailand Cert. or whatever....

Well quite a lot. For one they have the experience, as an adult, of 4 years of being in classrooms with teachers, watching teachers (real teachers) teach, have hopefully been inspired by some of them and can look back on and reflect what made them inspiring, and others less than inspiring, and can use that knowledge to adapt and develop themselves.

Massive advantage over someone who left education and never got exposure to teachers past the age of 18, 17,16, 15, or whatever age they gave up on their education.

Edited September 15, 2013 by pilm

[pilm]

Please do not assume Thai graduates to be inferior to their western equivalent.

I've had many conversations with Thai graduates, with almost all their level of general knowledge makes 'abysmal' sound quite good.

When you point out something (such as that light travels faster than sound, with one graduate) you get 'no, you wrong, not happen like that' then they try to think of examples to prove you wrong.

Well, if they're trying to think of examples to prove their points, they are at least, on the first rung of the critical thinking ladder, which according to research is about the same as a western undergraduate.

One even found one. Light doesn't travel faster than sound because first you hear an airplane, then you see it.

There's a time when you just say, oh yes, that's absolutely right, and pat them on the head if they are aged 10 or under.

[Scott]

A word of caution. You are posting in the Teaching forum. The forum is for teachers and is about teaching. Extremely negative comments about teachers will not be tolerated. The forum is strictly moderated.

Please respect the forum rules and please stay on topic. Refrain from making negative remarks aimed at other posters.

Posts and replies have been deleted.

[NeverSure]

I have had Uni qualified folk in English at my place. Most do not have a clue and I ''teach'' them stuff. I have no degree but I Know I can perfect stuff.

Did I say stuff, mai dee.

If true, it seems that 'the penny has dropped'!!

Possessing a degree in order to be able to teach is complete nonsense as degrees are complete nonsense!!!

Having a good command of REAL 'English' English and the desire and eagerness to teach Thai children is always going to be far more valuable than having a young degree holder in modern origami intent on getting drunk every night and having a good time wasting the money that his/her school pays him for 'having to teach' those stupid Thai kids (that don't like him anyway just because he shouts at them as he would rather be watching the TV with a can of Leo in his hand).

It is about time that the Thai authorities woke up to these so-called educated 'farang' scammers'!!

"Having a good command of REAL 'English' English..."

It sounds as if you believe that people will do well only if the above is true. People who speak REAL 'English English are by far in the minority in this world among NES's.

Not only that, but American English is the language of international trade and also of the internet. I'm not saying that either is better; quite the opposite. I'm saying that for the future "real English" won't be British English simply because it is being overwhelmed worldwide by American English due to world trade and the internet.

Bottom line: Either a Brit or an American or a Canadian or an Austrlian, etc. will do just fine. We all understand each other and that's the goal, worldwide.

Peace.

[Saradoc1972]

I have had Uni qualified folk in English at my place. Most do not have a clue and I ''teach'' them stuff. I have no degree but I Know I can perfect stuff.

Did I say stuff, mai dee.

If true, it seems that 'the penny has dropped'!!

Possessing a degree in order to be able to teach is complete nonsense as degrees are complete nonsense!!!

Having a good command of REAL 'English' English and the desire and eagerness to teach Thai children is always going to be far more valuable than having a young degree holder in modern origami intent on getting drunk every night and having a good time wasting the money that his/her school pays him for 'having to teach' those stupid Thai kids (that don't like him anyway just because he shouts at them as he would rather be watching the TV with a can of Leo in his hand).

It is about time that the Thai authorities woke up to these so-called educated 'farang' scammers'!!

"Having a good command of REAL 'English' English..."

It sounds as if you believe that people will do well only if the above is true. People who speak REAL 'English English are by far in the minority in this world among NES's.

Well, I did study law straight at the Queen's University of Belfast back in 1994 for a year, Northern Ireland not being exactly a tourist destination back then. So I ended up in a catered hall with 100 other students as the only non-native speaker (apart from Jonathon from India with whom nobody was sure what he actually spoke),

Let's just say I spoke real English English to a nice level before I got there (stupid TOEFL-thingy 100%, 660 pts out of 660 of 550 required to enter university and 8.5 in IELTS on top where 6.0 would have done) and for the first three months it didn't help that much. Apart from some 10 English, most everyone was from all about Ireland and did they have nice local accents, everyone his very own. Most notably the chap from Ballymena.

I could obviously enough converse with people, you just ran into bus drivers who shouted "santy" at you when hoping to convey that the single fare to City Hall was "seventy" pence.

What I am saying is that you need a moderate command of the language first, and up to there it will not matter so much what teacher you get as long a they've got acceptable pronunciation and can talk English straight, as you don't know where you will end up in life. If you really want to able to speak the language you THEN, after acquiring a vocabulary and sound grammar, need to go where it is used everyday by the natives ;-))

[Saradoc1972]

What on earth are TOEIC, TCT and PGCE? I was thinking I get a TEFL or CELTA, have my degree legalized and off I go.

TOEIC - A test that is usually taken by students from non-English speaking countries when they wish to attend a university in the US/UK etc... The maximum score is 1000 points. The MOE or the TCT is now requiring teachers who aren't from the US/UK/Australia, NZ, Canada or Ireland to take the TOEIC and score at least 550.

TCT - Teachers' Council of Thailand. About 10 years ago they were given the task of licensing all teachers in Thailand, both Thai and Foreign. Some people think that they are inept, arbitrary and corrupt. Others describe them in less complimentary terms.

PGCE - I believe that this stands for Post Graduate Certificate in Education. This is the British term for becoming a qualified and licensed teacher. Just as in the US, getting a PGCE involves a year of studying and an internship during which you are mentored and observed by an experienced teacher.

Cheers.

So I shell out another 100 € and take another English test. Whatever. As long as taking a course is not mandatory.

It's exactly what I said: If you are the authority to issue guidelines as to who can get employed you rely on shiny bits of paper and specify them. CPE, TOEFL, IELTS, legal/business English won't do.

Honestly, they don't know what they're doing to me. It's another test where I will hear: "Did you make a dinner reservation?" with the obvious answer being "Flight 261 to Osaka." ;-))

[caykay]

I used to teach at a government university in Thailand where the government subsidized my wages to the tune of about 45000 baht per month. I received 35000 per month. No matter what they try, all the money goes missing every month. All this spending is just getting dumped into someone's pocket and nothing changes.

[JDGRUEN]

Some observations:

Based on interacting with eight Thai citizens via Skype and other Internet venues for extended periods of time here is what I find.

Background: All are university educated - often Masters Degree level, teachers, school officers, nurses, etc.

Time Frame: Continued frequent visits several times a weeks for at least 30 minutes - more often an hour.for nine to twelve months.

I found that the English reading and writing skills (without using translating software) was most often good.

Speaking and understanding English was another matter... Pronouncing and enunciating English words started out very poor but gradually improved with interaction as would be expected. Understanding spoken English was very limited - picking up on words and phrases was a slow process. We usually engaged in teaching each other ... Thai /English. I did find that using IM (Internet Messaging) in concert with speaking was a great adjunct ... a few times seeing the typed phrase along with hearing it often make the difference to the spoken phrase sinking in. We joked that once we meet in person we would have to use iPads to converse across the restaurant table. This a fun exaggeration and actually not true as the IM typing assist proved very good at making sound / word associations that lasted.

The obvious conclusion to this is that the lack of daily English conservation practice limited all their good efforts at learning English vocabulary and grammar. In my opinion Conversational English with Native English Speakers is the best method. Grammar and vocabulary are just as important - but not more important and should not necessarily be taught at the same time.

As a side note, I just do not see the value of having teachers teaching English who are not Native English Speakers. It is an illogical concept that someone who cannot properly pronounce English words, has a thick accent along with limited English vocabulary and grammar skills can somehow magically teach English to Thai students. All that will happen is that the students will mimic the teacher and speak English unintelligibly.

[Phuket electrician]

All they want to see is a preferably white skinned, presentable, polite, culturally aware positive person. Half clown, half whipping boy. I don't think there is a test designed to identify such an individual until there is, a degree and a TEFL cert are the 'shiny' pieces of paper they want to see.

There is discrimination here but try and change Thailand and you'll just end up angry, frustrated and on your way to the border again.

Everything is temporary. Sir David Frost and others have said all we have of value is time.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Some observations:

Based on interacting with eight Thai citizens via Skype and other Internet venues for extended periods of time here is what I find.

Background: All are university educated - often Masters Degree level, teachers, school officers, nurses, etc.

Time Frame: Continued frequent visits several times a weeks for at least 30 minutes - more often an hour.for nine to twelve months.

I found that the English reading and writing skills (without using translating software) was most often good.

Speaking and understanding English was another matter... Pronouncing and enunciating English words started out very poor but gradually improved with interaction as would be expected. Understanding spoken English was very limited - picking up on words and phrases was a slow process. We usually engaged in teaching each other ... Thai /English. I did find that using IM (Internet Messaging) in concert with speaking was a great adjunct ... a few times seeing the typed phrase along with hearing it often make the difference to the spoken phrase sinking in. We joked that once we meet in person we would have to use iPads to converse across the restaurant table. This a fun exaggeration and actually not true as the IM typing assist proved very good at making sound / word associations that lasted.

The obvious conclusion to this is that the lack of daily English conservation practice limited all their good efforts at learning English vocabulary and grammar. In my opinion Conversational English with Native English Speakers is the best method. Grammar and vocabulary are just as important - but not more important and should not necessarily be taught at the same time.

As a side note, I just do not see the value of having teachers teaching English who are not Native English Speakers. It is an illogical concept that someone who cannot properly pronounce English words, has a thick accent along with limited English vocabulary and grammar skills can somehow magically teach English to Thai students. All that will happen is that the students will mimic the teacher and speak English unintelligibly.

Very sensible piece!!

[sirchai]

Sounds great. But I'd say that it's time for LOS to change more. Let the students fail, repeat the class again, until they reach the teacher's age. Lol..

More teachers could be employed, a better quality of education and the students with a learning disorder wouldn't disturb others any more.

Honestly, the loss of face and that no students, even at a high school are allowed to ask questions, is hindering any steps towards a functioning education.

If I'd have some say, I'd send those who want to become English teachers abroad to an English speaking country, let them study there for four years and they'll speak English.

And they won't lose face anymore.-

Edited September 16, 2013 by sirchai

[SICHONSTEVE]

All they want to see is a preferably white skinned, presentable, polite, culturally aware positive person. Half clown, half whipping boy. I don't think there is a test designed to identify such an individual until there is, a degree and a TEFL cert are the 'shiny' pieces of paper they want to see.

There is discrimination here but try and change Thailand and you'll just end up angry, frustrated and on your way to the border again.

Everything is temporary. Sir David Frost and others have said all we have of value is time.

...................and his time was up a little while ago, one of the best interviewers going!!

[Phuket electrician]

Buried Sir David Frost last week. RIP

Everything you do here requires the correct piece of paperwork. Visa run to Ranong's a scam isn't it.

Corruption is at the root of every issue. At my workplace we have a huge departmental budget yet photocopying lesson material is restricted. The Holder of the purse strings sees it as their own personal piggy bank. If I wish to keep my nice little job I have to keep my mouth shut. Is it possible this is endemic?

These time wasting 'tests' are perhaps 'a nice little earner.' Why butcher a cash cow?

[Phatcharanan]

I can't see how this would be bad (fingers at the ready to abuse me)

Dreadful thought......... :-(

Would be advisable to wear rubber gloves I think.

[jambco984]

 I can't see how this would be bad (fingers at the ready to abuse me)

 

 

Dreadful thought......... :-(  

 

Would be advisable to wear rubber gloves I think. 

I'm ready, just lube up first