Foreigners may no longer require a teacher's license?

[tijnebijn]

Hi guys ,

I am looking for some advise here . Well guess I"ll start with the fact that I'm considering to perhaps walk the walk and educate myself enough to be able to teach English in Thailand . I do understand rather that even if I'm able to successfully graduate in education , as a non NES my chances may be non existent , at least that's what my fear is . So maybe some of you can give a thought so my chances can increase .

I have a Thai family here and I want to help my wife earning a better income, and I'm willing to sacrifice precious time with them to earn a degree overseas , I'm from the Netherlands , and I'm not specifically seeking a job at the higher level, 20k-30k will be fine for me .

Please don't give me the 'look' as a non NES , although I do understand its less valuable than of those who are , guess we have to work even harder to improve , any well meaning advise is welcome, first to increase my chances and second the education I should seek , thanks .

[wattaman]

With all of the Thais teaching English even at the Uni level, but who can't speak English, an NES who could pass a Tefl would have to be better. Too many Thais are being taught vocabulary and grammar but not learning to speak because the teacher can't speak. This is a massive problem in Isaan where many schools have never had an NES.

I have a friend near Sisaket who is a native Thai teacher. Her education is in math and science. Because she learned English at uni especially while getting her master's, she has been designated as the English teacher. Her speaking ability is horrible and we can barely talk. What she can say has such a terrible Thai accent that no child is really going to learn to use the language. Yet they dutifully have English classes with all communication in Thai. It's a joke.

With all due respect for Thailand in general, that would be because nobody is really studying in Thailand. They know they are not allowed to fail and eventually they'll get their diplomas. In fact, I dare to think that there's no education in Thailand, at least not in 90% of the schools.

Why would you try hard to get something when you know it will be given to you...as long as dad pays the tuition fees and mom gets to brag about her children going to an expensive school?!

[bundoi]

@pasta

"despite Thailand having one of the worst levels of English skills of all ASEAN countries"

this assertion is not supported by the figures behind the quoted report. From my quick survey of the base data, 4 ASEAN countries score higher than Thailand and all 4 of these also score higher than Italy and France.....and 2 score higher than Germany, Swizerland, Portugal, Spain

And of course the main reason why the higher scoring ASEAN countries have a higher level of English is our good old friend COLONIALISM.

It's worth pointing out that Thailand has the 2nd highest GDP in ASEAN and is forecast to remain that way for a reasonable forecasting time period, and very importantly Thailand's economy is based upon a mixed economy, not dominated by oil for example.

Given that the new rules re degrees and waivers is a fairly recent change, I think they're likely to be here for a while.

Edited January 8, 2014 by bundoi

[fifthcolumn]

@pasta

"despite Thailand having one of the worst levels of English skills of all ASEAN countries"

this assertion is not supported by the figures behind the quoted report. From my quick survey of the base data, 4 ASEAN countries score higher than Thailand and all 4 of these also score higher than Italy and France.....and 2 score higher than Germany, Swizerland, Portugal, Spain

And of course the main reason why the higher scoring ASEAN countries have a higher level of English is our good old friend COLONIALISM.

It's worth pointing out that Thailand has the 2nd highest GDP in ASEAN and is forecast to remain that way for a reasonable forecasting time period, and very importantly Thailand's economy is based upon a mixed economy, not dominated by oil for example.

Given that the new rules re degrees and waivers is a fairly recent change, I think they're likely to be here for a while.

Sorry bro

Thailand routinely tests out at non functioning levels of English. "Colonialism" which is long dead and gone is nothing to ascribe the literacy to, it's the clear understanding of the value of English. Lee Kwan Yu who is hugely pro Singapore, father of the nation speaks fantastic English sndvI assure you not for sucking UK teet.

One day, when the tourism dries up, agro exports are halved and mfging moves to Vietnam, Indonesia or Africa they might wake up.

A nation of 70m people speaking an essentially stilted and dead language is no.way to greet the 21st C.

GDP is great, but what about measuring per capita with Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc etc. Vietnam is going to eat Thailands lunch.

Thailand's urban workforce is poorly educated and ineffective. I'd take one hard working westerner over five Thai's.

Most professionals come from well to do families and recieve profession training outside the country. They return they say because of lifestyle and living stds, but in reality even the cream cannot survive outside Thailand and build prof practices because their English sucks.

Further, Thailand has is atva crossroads. They can speak proper English (NES) or they can get it from the Philippino's. The Singapore accent is lovely, HKG as well. If they want to be taken for Philippino's when they open their mouths (nation as poor and corrupt as any place in Africa), well up to them. Further, trust in a Philippino uni degree? I think even Thsiland ironically educates better. I mean what do they do right? Objectively and empirically, nothing. Many in medical fields cannot pass their boards and never go abroad. Poor schools is a huge part if that. I'd take a farang from a proper university, a tefl and a serious attitude to teach. Then all Thailand need do is step aside and let them because it is obvious of their inability to deliver even badsc education above literacy. My wife needs a calculator to do simple addition <deleted>, college grad.

[bundoi]

@pasta

"despite Thailand having one of the worst levels of English skills of all ASEAN countries"

this assertion is not supported by the figures behind the quoted report. From my quick survey of the base data, 4 ASEAN countries score higher than Thailand and all 4 of these also score higher than Italy and France.....and 2 score higher than Germany, Swizerland, Portugal, Spain

And of course the main reason why the higher scoring ASEAN countries have a higher level of English is our good old friend COLONIALISM.

It's worth pointing out that Thailand has the 2nd highest GDP in ASEAN and is forecast to remain that way for a reasonable forecasting time period, and very importantly Thailand's economy is based upon a mixed economy, not dominated by oil for example.

Given that the new rules re degrees and waivers is a fairly recent change, I think they're likely to be here for a while.

Sorry bro

Thailand routinely tests out at non functioning levels of English. "Colonialism" which is long dead and gone is nothing to ascribe the literacy to, it's the clear understanding of the value of English. Lee Kwan Yu who is hugely pro Singapore, father of the nation speaks fantastic English sndvI assure you not for sucking UK teet.

One day, when the tourism dries up, agro exports are halved and mfging moves to Vietnam, Indonesia or Africa they might wake up.

A nation of 70m people speaking an essentially stilted and dead language is no.way to greet the 21st C.

GDP is great, but what about measuring per capita with Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc etc. Vietnam is going to eat Thailands lunch.

Thailand's urban workforce is poorly educated and ineffective. I'd take one hard working westerner over five Thai's.

Most professionals come from well to do families and recieve profession training outside the country. They return they say because of lifestyle and living stds, but in reality even the cream cannot survive outside Thailand and build prof practices because their English sucks.

Further, Thailand has is atva crossroads. They can speak proper English (NES) or they can get it from the Philippino's. The Singapore accent is lovely, HKG as well. If they want to be taken for Philippino's when they open their mouths (nation as poor and corrupt as any place in Africa), well up to them. Further, trust in a Philippino uni degree? I think even Thsiland ironically educates better. I mean what do they do right? Objectively and empirically, nothing. Many in medical fields cannot pass their boards and never go abroad. Poor schools is a huge part if that. I'd take a farang from a proper university, a tefl and a serious attitude to teach. Then all Thailand need do is step aside and let them because it is obvious of their inability to deliver even badsc education above literacy. My wife needs a calculator to do simple addition <deleted>, college grad.

Sorry old chap, but clearly you have not taken the time or trouble to look at the underlying figures, if you had done you would know that your assertions are for the most part codswallop. Yes Vietnam does frequently eat lunch from Thailand but not quite in the way you mean it.

Your view that Thai is "stilted and dead" reflects nothing but your own latter day colonialism.

By the way, Taiwan and Honk Kong are not in ASEAN.

Compare the figures of GDP per head in ASEAN, it will simply confirm my earlier position.

[puchooay]

@pasta

"despite Thailand having one of the worst levels of English skills of all ASEAN countries"

this assertion is not supported by the figures behind the quoted report. From my quick survey of the base data, 4 ASEAN countries score higher than Thailand and all 4 of these also score higher than Italy and France.....and 2 score higher than Germany, Swizerland, Portugal, Spain

And of course the main reason why the higher scoring ASEAN countries have a higher level of English is our good old friend COLONIALISM.

It's worth pointing out that Thailand has the 2nd highest GDP in ASEAN and is forecast to remain that way for a reasonable forecasting time period, and very importantly Thailand's economy is based upon a mixed economy, not dominated by oil for example.

Given that the new rules re degrees and waivers is a fairly recent change, I think they're likely to be here for a while.

Sorry bro

Thailand routinely tests out at non functioning levels of English. "Colonialism" which is long dead and gone is nothing to ascribe the literacy to, it's the clear understanding of the value of English. Lee Kwan Yu who is hugely pro Singapore, father of the nation speaks fantastic English sndvI assure you not for sucking UK teet.

One day, when the tourism dries up, agro exports are halved and mfging moves to Vietnam, Indonesia or Africa they might wake up.

A nation of 70m people speaking an essentially stilted and dead language is no.way to greet the 21st C.

GDP is great, but what about measuring per capita with Malaysia, Singapore, Brunei, Hong Kong, Taiwan, etc etc. Vietnam is going to eat Thailands lunch.

Thailand's urban workforce is poorly educated and ineffective. I'd take one hard working westerner over five Thai's.

Most professionals come from well to do families and recieve profession training outside the country. They return they say because of lifestyle and living stds, but in reality even the cream cannot survive outside Thailand and build prof practices because their English sucks.

Further, Thailand has is atva crossroads. They can speak proper English (NES) or they can get it from the Philippino's. The Singapore accent is lovely, HKG as well. If they want to be taken for Philippino's when they open their mouths (nation as poor and corrupt as any place in Africa), well up to them. Further, trust in a Philippino uni degree? I think even Thsiland ironically educates better. I mean what do they do right? Objectively and empirically, nothing. Many in medical fields cannot pass their boards and never go abroad. Poor schools is a huge part if that. I'd take a farang from a proper university, a tefl and a serious attitude to teach. Then all Thailand need do is step aside and let them because it is obvious of their inability to deliver even badsc education above literacy. My wife needs a calculator to do simple addition <deleted>, college grad.

Sorry old chap, but clearly you have not taken the time or trouble to look at the underlying figures, if you had done you would know that your assertions are for the most part codswallop. Yes Vietnam does frequently eat lunch from Thailand but not quite in the way you mean it.

Your view that Thai is "stilted and dead" reflects nothing but your own latter day colonialism.

By the way, Taiwan and Honk Kong are not in ASEAN.

Compare the figures of GDP per head in ASEAN, it will simply confirm my earlier position.

Not forgetting of course that GDP includes Government spending but NOT government debt.

It would be nice to see some true figures.

[Scott]

This topic is about Teacher's License. Continued off-topic posts will be deleted.

[attrayant]

How did I learn to speak English? Was it from someone with a PHD or was it from my mother and father and neighbors, almost accidentally by being exposed to it and needing it to fend? How else did I learn to tell someone I needed to go to the bathroom, or that I was hungry? How else did I know what my mother wanted when she called to me to tell me lunch was ready?

Fact. First I learned to speak fluently by being immersed in the language. Next at age 6 I went to school and over time was taught spelling and grammar and, horrors, how to diagram a sentence. Thais have it backwards. They too often teach writing, grammar, even spelling but not speaking. Thus the children don't really understand the use of what they are learning. Despite all of the grammar teaching, when they try to speak it, it's with Thai sentence structure.

I've posted something like this many times in the past. To wit:

One of my neighbors has been dropping off his 6 year old son at my house every day after he gets home from work. He asked if I could babysit while he takes a "sanity break" away from the boy for about an hour. I told him no problem. This has been going on for almost three years now. The boy currently speaks English almost as fluently (and without an accent) as an American boy of the same age would. I am not "teaching" him anything. No sitting at a desk, no whiteboard, no lessons of any kind. I'm just spending time with him and chatting.

Almost any native English speaker is qualified to do this. You don't need a teaching license or degree. I wish somebody in authority would understand that.

[attrayant]

It's the last sentence. Exposure is what's needed to give the kids a fighting chance in learning a language. Exposure to native speakers - which Thailand has thousands of, but who are forbidden to contribute to education because they are considered unqualified.

Tell me: how do Thai kids learn to speak Thai? Is it from their highly qualified teachers, or their unqualified parents?

[Scott]

Inflammatory posts removed as well as replies.

The topic is about Teacher's Licenses.

[bundoi]

It's the last sentence. Exposure is what's needed to give the kids a fighting chance in learning a language. Exposure to native speakers - which Thailand has thousands of, but who are forbidden to contribute to education because they are considered unqualified. Tell me: how do Thai kids learn to speak Thai? Is it from their highly qualified teachers, or their unqualified parents?

The reason why they are forbidden to teach is because they are not qualified to receive a THAI TEACHER'S LICENSE, nor are they qualified to teach in their home countries.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

[wolf5370]

Can anyone tell me how long Thailand has had NES working here? I believe they have been here for close on 30 years. Most that I know did not previously have degrees ect. And where has that gotten the average Thai student? Probably the worst out of the AEC Nations. So if you have not improved the quality of the Thai students language skills without having degrees in the past 30 years, what makes anyone believe they can do better in the next 30 years.

I believe that was the reasoning behind the Thai authorities wanting "educated" people teaching their children (degrees). They could not do any worse than the people working here the last 30 years. Or is it all the Thai teachers fault?

I think you have found the head of the nail, but missed it with your hammer That is, NES teachers have been here for many years - so you are right that dropping a requirement that is fairly new anyway, will make little difference other than keeping the pool of eligibility wider for potential teachers to be sourced.

However, the fault is not the quality of NES teachers, but the environment here. Students are destined to pass regardless of their real results, invigilators simply give them the answers or allow them to copy; retake the test over and over; give points for other things like neatness to make up the score; or lower the pass mark. Classes are too large for it to be conducive to learning. The copying culture is rampant and accepted - kids in class will do nothing all lesson,. but when queried actually state they will copy up later. The course are often based on the books that the administrator bought, because they were cheap/on a whim/because of a back hander/etc, and not because they match either the level of the student or are any good at all. Many text books here are full of miss spellings, grammatical mistakes (some horrendously) and way off the mark. There is little worse for a teacher than being stuck in a class of 65 kids at 3pm on a Friday with a book way above their level, trying to keep the kids awake and actually following the course.

This is what needs to be changed. If they really want Thai kids to be English speakers, they need small class sizes for English instruction. Classes should also be in the mornings. Regular events such as English language clubs and English Summer Fair Day, English plays, movie evening with unsubtitled movies the kids would be interested in, and so on. More fun for the kids and teachers alike.

There is a massive resource here in NES: The retired expats on OA visas (extensions) and non-Ed 'O' visas (such as husbands and wives of Thais here). By creating a special immigration rule allowing them to work on a voluntary/unpaid only basis, they could have English language clubs and other events such as projects where kids have to interview them etc; or using them as teacher assistants on the same basis (I am talking about non-teaching exposure here - not allowing untrained people teach/run the classroom). If the school covers expenses (i.e. provides a meal if over lunch and travel) then I think certainly in places with large expat numbers, there would be quite a lot of takers - at no real cost to the schools and without taking a single Thai job.

Also if the Thai Government allowed people with TEFL (or equivalent - even if on an OA visa) to gain a special WP to do private tuition, taxed as usual, without minimum wages or need for a Thai employer etc - on the sole basis of teaching the language - then again less well off people will be able to get some [extra] lessons for their kids to learn the language(without the expense of EPs or expensive language centres) at home. Again not affecting Thai jobs and actually raising revenue through taxation and return by consumption - and removing the illegality where it happens now already and reducing the cost for parents due to availability.

By the way, this is not self interest. I am not on an OA and have the qualifications to teach if I should so which to do so (actually I did teach here years back at college level).

[bundoi]

WOLF, that's an intelligent, informed, comprehensive and well-written post.... BUT....

no-one (farang I mean) seems to ask, "what are we trying to achieve"..."how important is English in Thailand"..... Thailand really does not need a generation of farang-clones... the Thai economy will outpace ours throughout the lives of all reading this...relationships with China are more important....

[Scott]

Please stay on-topic. The topic is about TEACHER'S LICENSES.

A post has been deleted.

[thequietman]

So, Just to be clear.

You can only get a maximum 2 TL waivers. So that's 4 years total. If you haven't passed all 4 tests and taken a Thai culture course in that time, then you are out of luck. Correct?

My understanding was that if you were taking the tests (not Passing) and trying to improve yourself, you would get another waiver. This is not the case, Yes?

It's a little confusing to say the least.

[uptheos]

I hope this never happens. I teach English (part time) in a local education center and of the several other English teachers here, the only one that actually CAN speak English ( I'm English BTW) is Canadian. I have stood in for many other teachers here and their students speaking and writing skills are way below what they should be. I struggle to understand them on many occasions, with even the simplest of phrases. Yet somehow they always seem to get good grades. Myself and the Canadian teacher have discussed this many times and are appalled by the quality of the English education here. Allowing just anyone to teach will only serve to make the situation worse.

P.S The spell checker here, has just tried to correct the word "Center" to "Centre". ( Mine is the correct English spelling). Case proven lol

sorry but people now rarely write - they text. tweet, etc in a language that although gramatically incorrect is understandable to them. This trend will continue so that one day you will only be signing your name.

the problem is practice in speaking English - as there's not enough NES people to go around and no incentive to offer their services.

if the Government relaxes the Immigration rules then some NES retirees might give up some time to speak English with these kids - I say this as the Schools and Uni's dont pay that much - so if a retiree gives up a few hours a week for English classes the Government should give them special consideration when applying for the retirement extension visa or the 90 day show your face rule.

There are 6 schools and Uni's around where I live and I bet they would go for this idea.

Won't happen, if you're a retiree they'll just think you're here with dollops of cash and more free time on your hands than anyone could dream of. They will think they're doing you a favour by helping you fill in your spare time instead of flirting with dolly's, drinking, reading, watching TV, going to the gym, sightseeing, going to nice restaurants and other wasteless retiree pursuits. They will always want everything for free and still expect you to graab to them if they are gracious enough to allow you a visa extension.

[Loaded]

So, Just to be clear.

You can only get a maximum 2 TL waivers. So that's 4 years total. If you haven't passed all 4 tests and taken a Thai culture course in that time, then you are out of luck. Correct?

My understanding was that if you were taking the tests (not Passing) and trying to improve yourself, you would get another waiver. This is not the case, Yes?

It's a little confusing to say the least.

I believe teachers at non-formal (language) schools, International schools, vocational colleges and universities are exempt from TCT Teacher Licensing requirements. Also, if you work for an agency that's licensed as a non-formal school and sub-contracts teachers to formal schools, you should be exempt as well, but this depends on how a particular labour office views these rules.