Older Guys, Younger Ladies, An Alternative View......"Maybe You Die"

[transam]

The only thing my Sgt. Major dad has ever mentioned to me is his mate having his head removed by a plane propeller he walked into. Nothing else.

[farang000999]

If a young woman can fall in love with Paul McCartney or Bruce Willis or Pablo Picasso then that means that she could definitely fall in love with Martin, the 65 year old 110kg bald retired plumber from Manchester.

Edited September 17, 2013 by farang000999

[transam]

If a young woman can fall in love with Paul McCartney or Bruce Willis or Pablo Picasso then that means that she could definitely fall in love with Martin, the 65 year old 110kg bald retired plumber from Manchester.

OUI, less of the bald stuff. .....................

[petermik]

If a young woman can fall in love with Paul McCartney or Bruce Willis or Pablo Picasso then that means that she could definitely fall in love with Martin, the 65 year old 110kg bald retired plumber from Manchester.

Martin,s knack of clearing blocked downspouts is an asset to ALL ladies-young or old

LOL

[itchybum]

_{/\ /\ /\}

_{Those guys weren't compelled to fly halfway around the world to trawl hooker bars in order to find someone.}

People will drive a long way for a sale...

[krisb]

to eat or not to eat is not the question

And no money, no honey is the t-shirt!

Dam straight, ain't that the truth!

[HardenedSoul]

Something an older man can provide!... In Asia an old man with a young woman has been perfectly acceptable for centuries,and doesn't raise an eyebrow in the slightest,and the objections have all come from the west,who think that it's indecent to have the old and young married or cohabiting, with never a thought of asking their opinion!

In spite of some of the Young Guys that convince themselves that: Youth,looks and a decent pair of Biceps is all you need,I suspect most women (given the choice) will choose security,over a poverty stricken lifestyle (especially in realistic Asia),with the young dreamers every time,and who can blame them! there are so many deluded young Bucks around.

You make it sound like it's only older men that can "provide".

There are hordes of younger men here, in Thailand, right NOW earning fantastically well. I know at least 20 of them.

The older men on here seem to be utterly convinced that wealth can only be acquired once you're old enough for your prostate to start playing up and you've one foot in the grave.

That's <deleted> and you know it

Let me just say - I am not young any longer so this is not a self-serving argument. I will feel exactly the same if and when I reach 60 or 70.

A young man with wedge will always, ALWAYS have infinitely more options with young women than his geriatric counterpart . . . unless, of course, that counterpart is particularly famous or blessed with billions.

I realise that some of you older guys really want to believe that your value to a woman 20-30 years your junior can extend beyond the contents of your wallet. I freely concede that, in some cases, it can and DOES but you're deluding yourselves thinking that any young Thai woman, given the opportunity to select a mate from a pool of relatively wealthy pensioners and relatively wealthy 28 - 45yr olds, would go for the old boys.

Note that I am outside that age group so, I repeat, this is not a self serving argument; I'm just telling it like it is.

[arthurwait]

I'm too sexy for my shirt.

[i claudius]

ok i know my wife is younger than me ,but at least 3 of my friends are married to women only a few years younger than them , i for one did not come to Thailand to marry a younger wife(i had one of those in the UK ) but i met my wife when i had a buisness in BKK and she although not rich or hi so by any standard came from a comfortably off familly and really had no need to marry me for my money ,especially as at that time there was not a lot .

[NanLaew]

Preamble...

A young man with wedge will always, ALWAYS have infinitely more options with young women than his geriatric counterpart . . . unless, of course, that counterpart is particularly famous or blessed with billions.

I realise that some of you older guys really want to believe that your value to a woman 20-30 years your junior can extend beyond the contents of your wallet. I freely concede that, in some cases, it can and DOES but you're deluding yourselves thinking that any young Thai woman, given the opportunity to select a mate from a pool of relatively wealthy pensioners and relatively wealthy 28 - 45yr olds, would go for the old boys.

Note that I am outside that age group so, I repeat, this is not a self serving argument; I'm just telling it like it is.

Here we go again. So you are neither in the young-with-a-wedge brigade, nor in the old-with-a-huge-wedge brigade.

Why do you feel it (repeatedly) needs telling 'like it is'?

I remember when my puffed-up chest and colourful mating display was outdone by a much younger bantam cock with a more, brighter feathers but I got over it. So will you.

[robblok]

Something an older man can provide!... In Asia an old man with a young woman has been perfectly acceptable for centuries,and doesn't raise an eyebrow in the slightest,and the objections have all come from the west,who think that it's indecent to have the old and young married or cohabiting, with never a thought of asking their opinion!

In spite of some of the Young Guys that convince themselves that: Youth,looks and a decent pair of Biceps is all you need,I suspect most women (given the choice) will choose security,over a poverty stricken lifestyle (especially in realistic Asia),with the young dreamers every time,and who can blame them! there are so many deluded young Bucks around.

You make it sound like it's only older men that can "provide".

There are hordes of younger men here, in Thailand, right NOW earning fantastically well. I know at least 20 of them.

The older men on here seem to be utterly convinced that wealth can only be acquired once you're old enough for your prostate to start playing up and you've one foot in the grave.

That's <deleted> and you know it

Let me just say - I am not young any longer so this is not a self-serving argument. I will feel exactly the same if and when I reach 60 or 70.

A young man with wedge will always, ALWAYS have infinitely more options with young women than his geriatric counterpart . . . unless, of course, that counterpart is particularly famous or blessed with billions.

I realise that some of you older guys really want to believe that your value to a woman 20-30 years your junior can extend beyond the contents of your wallet. I freely concede that, in some cases, it can and DOES but you're deluding yourselves thinking that any young Thai woman, given the opportunity to select a mate from a pool of relatively wealthy pensioners and relatively wealthy 28 - 45yr olds, would go for the old boys.

Note that I am outside that age group so, I repeat, this is not a self serving argument; I'm just telling it like it is.

Of course financially independent woman don't go for old guys. That is the whole point, woman only go for older guys with money when they need the money. That is what this earner-ship is all about. I believe most guys here understand that.

Anyone who knows financially independent woman will get the same answer, they just go for attraction then like The Blether says love is a luxury. I have spoken to enough woman with money to conclude this. Its only logical else all the superstars in Thai movies would be old white guys and they are not. Most of the superstars are hot young guys.

So it is just for money, now that most people agree on that the only question is can love grow from those relations, I think it can in some cases. In other cases the guy has to keep making sure he keeps control over his money or he looses it, and in a minority of cases the guy gets bumped off for his money.

I don't see the problem anymore, if i was old and single I might go for a young gf. But I would not delude myself that she thinks I am the most sexy guy around and her biggest desire. I would know its because of my money that she is with me. No problems there what so ever. Once you accept that you can enjoy it no need to fool yourself. I also don't see anything wrong in those relationships as long as both parties are happy or at least do their part.

But for those of us who don't like it we just go for the financial independent woman, they are a different group. I don't see the point actually I mean we all like different things. I like to know that a girl is into me not my money that is why i go for that group. Other guys just want a girl that looks good is young and they pay for it. In the end its a personal choice and everyone should make it for himself.

Right now I like the financial independent ones but if old and single i can see the attraction of nice young one as the financial independent ones wont go for me anymore (if i want them too young). So we will see what is happening then.

[HardenedSoul]

Preamble...

A young man with wedge will always, ALWAYS have infinitely more options with young women than his geriatric counterpart . . . unless, of course, that counterpart is particularly famous or blessed with billions.

I realise that some of you older guys really want to believe that your value to a woman 20-30 years your junior can extend beyond the contents of your wallet. I freely concede that, in some cases, it can and DOES but you're deluding yourselves thinking that any young Thai woman, given the opportunity to select a mate from a pool of relatively wealthy pensioners and relatively wealthy 28 - 45yr olds, would go for the old boys.

Note that I am outside that age group so, I repeat, this is not a self serving argument; I'm just telling it like it is.

Here we go again. So you are neither in the young-with-a-wedge brigade, nor in the old-with-a-huge-wedge brigade.

Why do you feel it (repeatedly) needs telling 'like it is'?

I remember when my puffed-up chest and colourful mating display was outdone by a much younger bantam cock with a more, brighter feathers but I got over it. So will you.

Why? Because people are (repeatedly) dancing around it and I don't need to be in any "brigade" to point it out

There really is nothing to get over from this end, mate.

Seriously . . .

Nothing

[GreenSnapper]

Of course financially independent woman don't go for old guys.

Only with your limited experience.

I know a rich Thai business woman who makes money like most of you guys can only dream about.

She is also Mia Noi to a 26 years older Thai man. He doesn't pay for it.

Western guys here should really stop repeating the nonsense about "equality" between women and men, as they learn in their Western home countries. Women don't act by the same standards as men do. Live with it and learn from it.

[robblok]

Of course financially independent woman don't go for old guys.

Only with your limited experience.

I know a rich Thai business woman who makes money like most of you guys can only dream about.

She is also Mia Noi to a 26 years older Thai man. He doesn't pay for it.

Western guys here should really stop repeating the nonsense about "equality" between women and men, as they learn in their Western home countries. Women don't act by the same standards as men do. Live with it and learn from it.

I am talking here in general terms, here just accept it. I will accept that it does happen but so does winning the lottery it does not happen much.

I think its just hard for guys to admit its about the money as they still feel the bad stigma from their home country about that. Guys should forget about that and accept that here it is ok and accepted that you pay for it they would live much better. They could stop fooling themselves and don't have to fight in threads like this because of their insecurities stemming from their western views.

[itchybum]

Something an older man can provide!... In Asia an old man with a young woman has been perfectly acceptable for centuries,and doesn't raise an eyebrow in the slightest,and the objections have all come from the west,who think that it's indecent to have the old and young married or cohabiting, with never a thought of asking their opinion!

In spite of some of the Young Guys that convince themselves that: Youth,looks and a decent pair of Biceps is all you need,I suspect most women (given the choice) will choose security,over a poverty stricken lifestyle (especially in realistic Asia),with the young dreamers every time,and who can blame them! there are so many deluded young Bucks around.

You make it sound like it's only older men that can "provide".

There are hordes of younger men here, in Thailand, right NOW earning fantastically well. I know at least 20 of them.

The older men on here seem to be utterly convinced that wealth can only be acquired once you're old enough for your prostate to start playing up and you've one foot in the grave.

That's <deleted> and you know it

Let me just say - I am not young any longer so this is not a self-serving argument. I will feel exactly the same if and when I reach 60 or 70.

A young man with wedge will always, ALWAYS have infinitely more options with young women than his geriatric counterpart . . . unless, of course, that counterpart is particularly famous or blessed with billions.

I realise that some of you older guys really want to believe that your value to a woman 20-30 years your junior can extend beyond the contents of your wallet. I freely concede that, in some cases, it can and DOES but you're deluding yourselves thinking that any young Thai woman, given the opportunity to select a mate from a pool of relatively wealthy pensioners and relatively wealthy 28 - 45yr olds, would go for the old boys.

Note that I am outside that age group so, I repeat, this is not a self serving argument; I'm just telling it like it is.

I think that post is illegal with all its boldness and red bits.

[GreenSnapper]

I am talking here in general terms, here just accept it. I will accept that it does happen but so does winning the lottery it does not happen much.

I think its just hard for guys to admit its about the money as they still feel the bad stigma from their home country about that. Guys should forget about that and accept that here it is ok and accepted that you pay for it they would live much better. They could stop fooling themselves and don't have to fight in threads like this because of their insecurities stemming from their western views.

It has nothing to do with "lottery" or "general terms". It is just what you believe.

Get some clues about hypergamy, alpha/beta dynamics and the differences in female mating patterns. Reality is very different from the wonderland world you try to explain here.

And not only in Thailand. Alpha males in the West do have much younger women. Not only famous rock stars, but your average Joe. At least at the side. Same as all the older Thais in my neighbourhood with 20+ years old attractive chicks.

And with "attractive" I don't mean the kind of women the average young good looking Farang can be seen with. They rarely score higher than a 6.

And that may also explain the anger from some of you guys here.

[robblok]

I am talking here in general terms, here just accept it. I will accept that it does happen but so does winning the lottery it does not happen much.

I think its just hard for guys to admit its about the money as they still feel the bad stigma from their home country about that. Guys should forget about that and accept that here it is ok and accepted that you pay for it they would live much better. They could stop fooling themselves and don't have to fight in threads like this because of their insecurities stemming from their western views.

It has nothing to do with "lottery" or "general terms". It is just what you believe.

Get some clues about hypergamy, alpha/beta dynamics and the differences in female mating patterns. Reality is very different from the wonderland world you try to explain here.

And not only in Thailand. Alpha males in the West do have much younger women. Not only famous rock stars, but your average Joe. At least at the side. Same as all the older Thais in my neighbourhood with 20+ years old attractive chicks.

And with "attractive" I don't mean the kind of women the average young good looking Farang can be seen with. They rarely score higher than a 6.

And that may also explain the anger from some of you guys here.

Ah so if you put a lot of fancy terms in your post without backing them up you think you are right.

I think my movie-star and soap star analogy works a lot better as that is usually what girls like (for physical attraction) Those aren't old guys that is for sure.

[cornishcarlos]

I am 41, my wife is 31..

When we met I was not a big earner and I'm still not.

She is not hi-so but also not from a poor family, just average income level.

So why did she marry me ???

Don't be too rude in your answers

[jpinx]

I am talking here in general terms, here just accept it. I will accept that it does happen but so does winning the lottery it does not happen much.

I think its just hard for guys to admit its about the money as they still feel the bad stigma from their home country about that. Guys should forget about that and accept that here it is ok and accepted that you pay for it they would live much better. They could stop fooling themselves and don't have to fight in threads like this because of their insecurities stemming from their western views.

It has nothing to do with "lottery" or "general terms". It is just what you believe.

Get some clues about hypergamy, alpha/beta dynamics and the differences in female mating patterns. Reality is very different from the wonderland world you try to explain here.

And not only in Thailand. Alpha males in the West do have much younger women. Not only famous rock stars, but your average Joe. At least at the side. Same as all the older Thais in my neighbourhood with 20+ years old attractive chicks.

And with "attractive" I don't mean the kind of women the average young good looking Farang can be seen with. They rarely score higher than a 6.

And that may also explain the anger from some of you guys here.

Sheesh -- there really *is* an expert on every topic in the world -- all here for your edification in ThaiVisa -- and what's more --- it's FREE !!!

[HardenedSoul]

Of course financially independent woman don't go for old guys.

Only with your limited experience.

I know a rich Thai business woman who makes money like most of you guys can only dream about.

She is also Mia Noi to a 26 years older Thai man. He doesn't pay for it.

Western guys here should really stop repeating the nonsense about "equality" between women and men, as they learn in their Western home countries. Women don't act by the same standards as men do. Live with it and learn from it.

I am talking here in general terms, here just accept it. I will accept that it does happen but so does winning the lottery it does not happen much.

I think its just hard for guys to admit its about the money as they still feel the bad stigma from their home country about that. Guys should forget about that and accept that here it is ok and accepted that you pay for it they would live much better. They could stop fooling themselves and don't have to fight in threads like this because of their insecurities stemming from their western views.

For sure there are one or two on here who simply recognise their situations for what they are, hence they don't feel stigmatized. Indeed, the seem genuinely happier.

Hats off to 'em.

The ones who are protesting are doing so in order to assuage misplaced guilt they may feel about hooking up with a young Thai woman from a poor background who, 9 times out of 10, will be driven by financial imperatives.

Call it what you want but it is what it is

[HardenedSoul]

I am 41, my wife is 31..

When we met I was not a big earner and I'm still not.

She is not hi-so but also not from a poor family, just average income level.

So why did she marry me ???

Don't be too rude in your answers

She loved you.

Sorry to be rude

[rayongchelsea]

Marry who you like, but from my observations, the old ones seem to marry very unattractive, dull,unintelligent, poor women, cant communicate properly and are inherently lazy,from the underclass and then moan about them!!

Not much to offer and the body goes at some point..no way most marriages will survive...

It's like a conveyer belt since the early 2000's.

Why marry at all at that age, live together, just rent..

The old history crap..to justify something..plenty of old men here, plenty of younger women in bars..not rocket science. One party needs the other supplies..it's just pontificating..and has nothing to do with farangs feeling superior..it's about demographics..

Stop with the poverty crap too..a lot of these girls earn more than the pensioners they amuse..

[FiftyTwo]

And with "attractive" I don't mean the kind of women the average young good looking Farang can be seen with. They rarely score higher than a 6.

And that may also explain the anger from some of you guys here.

When I were a lad, I could only manage a 3 or 4 in the UK, at my age I would be lucky to score a '1' now..

I'm more than happy in Thailand with a '6', although I would rate my current gf as a '7'.

Edited September 17, 2013 by FiftyTwo

[robblok]

Of course financially independent woman don't go for old guys.

Only with your limited experience.

I know a rich Thai business woman who makes money like most of you guys can only dream about.

She is also Mia Noi to a 26 years older Thai man. He doesn't pay for it.

Western guys here should really stop repeating the nonsense about "equality" between women and men, as they learn in their Western home countries. Women don't act by the same standards as men do. Live with it and learn from it.

I am talking here in general terms, here just accept it. I will accept that it does happen but so does winning the lottery it does not happen much.

I think its just hard for guys to admit its about the money as they still feel the bad stigma from their home country about that. Guys should forget about that and accept that here it is ok and accepted that you pay for it they would live much better. They could stop fooling themselves and don't have to fight in threads like this because of their insecurities stemming from their western views.

For sure there are one or two on here who simply recognise their situations for what they are, hence they don't feel stigmatized. Indeed, the seem genuinely happier.

Hats off to 'em.

The ones who are protesting are doing so in order to assuage misplaced guilt they may feel about hooking up with a young Thai woman from a poor background who, 9 times out of 10, will be driven by financial imperatives.

Call it what you want but it is what it is

Posted a few times but say it again at times a relation based on his money can result in love. Its not something that does not happen.

[rayongchelsea]

Of course financially independent woman don't go for old guys.

Only with your limited experience.

I know a rich Thai business woman who makes money like most of you guys can only dream about.

She is also Mia Noi to a 26 years older Thai man. He doesn't pay for it.

Western guys here should really stop repeating the nonsense about "equality" between women and men, as they learn in their Western home countries. Women don't act by the same standards as men do. Live with it and learn from it.

I am talking here in general terms, here just accept it. I will accept that it does happen but so does winning the lottery it does not happen much.

I think its just hard for guys to admit its about the money as they still feel the bad stigma from their home country about that. Guys should forget about that and accept that here it is ok and accepted that you pay for it they would live much better. They could stop fooling themselves and don't have to fight in threads like this because of their insecurities stemming from their western views.

For sure there are one or two on here who simply recognise their situations for what they are, hence they don't feel stigmatized. Indeed, the seem genuinely happier.

Hats off to 'em.

The ones who are protesting are doing so in order to assuage misplaced guilt they may feel about hooking up with a young Thai woman from a poor background who, 9 times out of 10, will be driven by financial imperatives.

Call it what you want but it is what it is

Posted a few times but say it again at times a relation based on his money can result in love. Its not something that does not happen.

True..but it's a basis for a multitude of insecurities surely..and so will invariably fail..

[robblok]

@rayongchelsea

I am not sure it will always fail, sometimes love grows from these relations based on his income. I don't think its that rare.. on the other hand i also don't think its rare for it to fail. But its certainly not impossible to work.

[Rob8891]

Three things that spring from the OP's posts here are:

1. The OP's opening sentence. "Why do some members persistently go on about this subject?" I agree. Why yet again??

2. HardenedSoul said "The ones who are protesting are doing so in order to assuage misplaced guilt they may feel about hooking up with a young Thai woman from a poor background who, 9 times out of 10, will be driven by financial imperatives."

3. There is a huge disparity between what some people post in Thaivisa and what is hard reality: that is the nature of an anonymous forum, I suppose. I know of at least one prominent TV member who has frequently advocated not spending on a thai girl or her family (maybe HS was thinking of the same person when he posted, I don't know), but that same person picked up a young, attractive and not particularly intelligent thai girl far, far younger than himself, and that girl received at the very least a car from the advocate of not spending on Thais........

Amazing the disparity between fact and fiction isn't it?

I would change what the OP wrote and suggest that IF you have found the right person, and have taken the time to make sure, there is nothing wrong with investing some of your time, your life and your finances in your new-found family. Careful and prudent investment in this way will be returned many times over, although I appreciate that there those who cannot accept such a fact of life.

On the other hand, a fool and his money are soon parted as the old saying goes....or if you want a new take on that, the bg's are gonna getcha!

[HardenedSoul]

@rayongchelsea

I am not sure it will always fail, sometimes love grows from these relations based on his income. I don't think its that rare.. on the other hand i also don't think its rare for it to fail. But its certainly not impossible to work.

It's rarer than you think.

There's a difference between love and sincere gratitude.

A Thai woman may utter the word "love" to her elderly husband/partner but in most cases - NOT ALL - that's a euphemism for thanks.

Thanks for enabling me to pay my bills; putting my kids through school, giving money to my parents etc, etc. It is, I suppose, a form of love but it's not the form a lot of these men want it to be.

[rayongchelsea]

@rayongchelsea

I am not sure it will always fail, sometimes love grows from these relations based on his income. I don't think its that rare.. on the other hand i also don't think its rare for it to fail. But its certainly not impossible to work.

It's rarer than you think.

There's a difference between love and sincere gratitude.

A Thai woman may utter the word "love" to her elderly husband/partner but in most cases - NOT ALL - that's a euphemism for thanks.

Thanks for enabling me to pay my bills; putting my kids through school, giving money to my parents etc, etc. It is, I suppose, a form of love but it's not the form a lot of these men want it to be.

I think that is a very good summation.Also we believe what we want to believe, even if evidence is to the contrary.

I agree it has to be very rare..too much against to be otherwise..

[Dr Robert]

'Trophy Wives' - The male of the species is, by evolution, is hardwired for it. Been going on since the dawn of time. Yin and Yang - Etc., Ad Infinitum.

Love? Or just Gold digging? Here is another old saying for you Blether. Women give sex for love. Men give love for sex

The wise say we should not be cynical about Love. But true, unconditional love is extremely elusive, if not, rare. And then there many who would confuse elusive with illusive.

I have a few acquaintances back in Aust who still refer to, and introduce their younger spouses quite openly in social environments, as their 'Child Bride'. Male ego insecurity?

Thailand, plus all the other developing and 3rd world countries provide a resource for 'Trophy Wives' to those, non rich and rather average men, who otherwise would not be able to afford the same where they come from. Under normal circumstances young, hard bodied, attractive females do not, as a rule, marry fat, bald, unfit, middle aged, POOR men who cannot provide for them..

You can go back through history to the dawn of time and find many examples of 'Trophy Wives', but here a few recent ones.

So do you have love? Or a Trophy?

What about starting a topic on 'Cougars'.

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/05/what-if-men-stopped-chasing-much-younger-women/275916/

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• Hugh Hefner

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• Fred Astaire

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• Pablo Picasso

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• Clint Eastwood

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• Nelson Mandela

  World famous political personality and anti-apartheid activist, Nelson Mandela was the first South African president to be elected in a fully representative democratic election. Mandela has received more than 250 awards over four decades, including the 1993 Nobel Peace Prize. His personal life has been equally momentous with first marriage to Evelyn Ntoko Mase ending in painful divorce and his second marriage to Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, also an activist, ending in the midst of political and family discord. On his 80th birthday in 1998, Nelson Mandela got married for the third time to Graça Machel née Simbine, almost twenty-seven younger to him. She is the widow of Samora Machel, the former Mozambican president and ANC ally who was killed in an air crash 12 years earlier.

• Paul McCartney

  Best known as being part of the hugely famous music band The Beatles, Sir Paul McCartney is a successful English musician, singer-songwriter and compose in his own right. After going through two marriages and several affairs, McCartney, almost seventy, married New Yorker Nancy Shevell, fifty-one in a civil ceremony at Old Marylebone Town Hall, London on 9 October 2011. The wedding was a "low-key affair" attended by a group of around 30 family and friends although it was extensively covered in the UK due to his massive fan following.

• Aristotle Onassis

  Greek shipping magnate, Aristotle Onassis married Jacqueline Kennedy, widow of U.S. President John F. Kennedy, on October 20, 1968. This was a second marriage for both and at the time Onassis was almost sixty while Jacqueline was thirty-nine.

• Warren Beatty

  The famous American actor, producer, screenwriter and director is best remembered for his role as the legendary gangster in Bugsy. Beatty has around fourteen Academy Award nominations in his kitty, besides the award for Best Director in 1982 and another four Golden Globe Awards including the Cecil B. DeMille Award. Beatty married actress Annette Benning, 21 years his junior. Beatty and Benning share one of the most successful marriages in Hollywood, being married since 1992 and having four children together.

So tell me, what do these men you quote have in common? is it their personality and good looks? or is it something more basic like the size of their bank account