Female Friends Of Gay Men In Thailand

[Ijustwannateach]

It's a bit anti-intuitive, but in Thailand one of the indicators that a man might be gay is if he is constantly surrounded by an entourage of beautiful young women. The logic behind this is that if he were straight, the women would be more discreet and/or worried about their reputation and/or jealous of each other; since they are comfortable hanging out in a group around the guy, he must be gay! Presumably the women can enjoy the gay man's friendship without worrying about the usual sexual tensions/demands.

This happens in other countries, too, of course.

When I was in my home country, however, there were also *male* fag hags. Typically, these were very handsome and usually somewhat narcissistic straight guys who would be too competitive or self-centred to make many friends with other straight guys- but who loved the attention and the lack of competition that gay male friends entailed.

Have any of you ever come across (no pun intended) a Thai male fag hag?

"Steven"

////edited title after the term 'fag hag' was discussed and considered pejorative.///PeaceBlondie

[DUMPSTER]

another awful "label" thread.

[Steve2UK]

Can't see where "label" comes into this, awful or otherwise; we all know what fag hag connotes - using the term just avoids the need to give a lengthy description/definition. Isn't that what language is for?

Back to the point - I saw a fair number of male fag hags in London media circles. Apart from the possible motivation that IJWT mentioned, my take was that they also welcomed the change of air from the straight "lads" culture (status competitive in its own way) that's fairly widespread there. Can't make a direct comparison with the Thai equivalent because I don't move in those circles and my experience is mainly from Chiang Mai. But, given that (IMO) many Thai guys tend to have a more flexible approach to their sexuality, it strikes me that it's inherently less likely to see a "confirmed" straight Thai guy hanging out with a gay crowd - wouldn't most people just assume that he's also in gay mode?

[PeaceBlondie]

Steven, I have noticed that openly gay Thai boys are generally considered as girls (at least in the north country) and they hang out with the girls without being perceived as males.

Seems to me that your second category, Steven, is straight and handsome Thai guys who hang out with the Thai girls in order to score with them.

Steve2UK, I didn't think he was talking about a confirmed straight Thai guy handing out with a gay crowd; that would label him as gay. but I think a minority of gay guys can hang out with a lot of straight guys.

Again, I don't know.

[dukkha]

As i read it, IJWT is commenting on straight, thai, men who hang out with gay, thai, men...I may be wrong but who cares, I dont like the term at all either Dumpster, yet another label... dukkha

[Ijustwannateach]

Dhukka, if you don't understand what my thread is about, how can you dislike it?

It's a common term among gays for our female fans... from those who are merely inclined to hang out with us in preference to straight male company, to those who actually become romantically attached to the point of having difficulty with straight male relationships... one famous fag hag in history would be Leonard Strachey's long term admirer and companion, Carrington.

In Japan, there is a romanticism attached by women to gay male relationships, as gay men there are seen as more sensitive and empathetic- a charge that may well be true- and there is a huge market- among *straight women*- of comics depicting somewhat idealized gay male love stories. These comics are also being sold *here* in some quantities, now, since the entire comics market in Thailand appears to have become nipponized....

Anyway, I suppose we could always refer to them as "women who prefer gay male company," but if the "women who prefer gay male company" don't mind too much, I think it's a good enough shortcut to call the "women who prefer gay male company" fag hags instead. It's much quicker to type, and it's a common term understood by most "men who prefer sexual and emotional bonding with other men instead of women," errr, gay men.

My point was that although I have seen such "women who prefer..." (ok, can I use my word now?) fag hags around Thailand, I have not yet run into one of the male variety, admittedly less common, that I used to meet in the States.

I think Steve understands what I was talking about- a straight gay who prefers gay male friendships, not necessarily in groups, but possibly one-on-one. The ones I knew in the States were somewhat solitary animals. They date women, but for friendship they need gay guys. PB, you never run across any of these?

Steve's probably right- a straight Thai man hanging around with gay guys will probably be seen as looking for other kinds of thrills... and afraid of being *LABELLED!!!*

"Steven"

[DUMPSTER]

Anyway, I suppose we could always refer to them as "women who prefer gay male company," but if the "women who prefer gay male company" don't mind too much, I think it's a good enough shortcut to call the "women who prefer gay male company" fag hags instead. It's much quicker to type, and it's a common term understood by most "men who prefer sexual and emotional bonding with other men instead of women," errr, gay men.

"Steven"

If someone refers to a woman as a hag, they mean that she is ugly, old, and unpleasant.

Why use the word hag? It's insulting to women who happen to have gay friends. Fag Hag implies that the woman must be ugly and unable to date men so she hangs around with gay guys.

What's wrong with fag friend, if you must use the term fag, which i also think is an awful word for a gay guy. I don't want to appear all PC but fag hag is insulting to women who have gay friends IMHO.

It would be interesting to hear from women, who have gay friends, about their thoughts on being called faghags. I assume it's insulting to them, maybe i'm wrong.

[Ijustwannateach]

PB, I think you're right about the perception of the queenier type of gay boy as being basically girls... but I've seen the less queeny (possibly gay?) boys accepted around a lot of girls, too- that's the only reason I suspected one or two of them might be gay, as it is so unusual to see boys and girls crossing the gender lines, even as college students and young adults.

"Steven"

[donna]

i agree with the comment by DUMPSTER saying that a hag implies that the woman is ugly and horrible. i got called a fag hag by a gay man once and didnt like it at all.

the remaining gay friend with me reassured me that i wasnt, in fact, a hag. but it still didnt feel nice to be labelled.

Anyway, I suppose we could always refer to them as "women who prefer gay male company," but if the "women who prefer gay male company" don't mind too much, I think it's a good enough shortcut to call the "women who prefer gay male company" fag hags instead. It's much quicker to type, and it's a common term understood by most "men who prefer sexual and emotional bonding with other men instead of women," errr, gay men.

"Steven"

If someone refers to a woman as a hag, they mean that she is ugly, old, and unpleasant.

Why use the word hag? It's insulting to women who happen to have gay friends. Fag Hag implies that the woman must be ugly and unable to date men so she hangs around with gay guys.

What's wrong with fag friend, if you must use the term fag, which i also think is an awful word for a gay guy. I don't want to appear all PC but fag hag is insulting to women who have gay friends IMHO.

It would be interesting to hear from women, who have gay friends, about their thoughts on being called faghags. I assume it's insulting to them, maybe i'm wrong.

[the gent]

Would ' fruit fly ' be a more acceptable, less pejorative, term? It has a certain euphony and would be just as descriptive.

[Guest endure]

I've got to agree with Dumpster and Donna here. I've always thought that 'fag hag' was a very pejorative description for a woman.

[Ijustwannateach]

All right, then- can we agree on a substitute moniker, or are we going to be stuck with "women who prefer men who prefer men?"

And does anyone have anything to say on the topic?

"Steven"

[kat]

I think the term fag hag is a pejorative term, and I don't like it all. It is also veering toward narcissism, because not all women who have gay male friends "prefer" them to other men. It goes both ways you know, many gay men also seek out the friendship of women.

It is a pejorative term, and it is right up there with gay men calling women fish. I don't like it all, and for the record, I've had many, many gay male friends, have been out clubbing with them, *have been beside them during their relationship woes, shopping, commitment ceremonies, and funerals, and have never wanted to sleep with the majority of them, with 2 exceptions. On 2 occassions, I was attracted to very close gay male friends, but hey, they were also attracted to me. I know - shock and horror, and lots of wrist waving, attracted to a girl, oh my -

But nothing ever came of it, and I just think it was one of the more fluid things about sexuality, rather than their orientation. One was freaked out about it, and tried to pretend that the attraction or crush never existed, and one of them wanted me to have and raise his child.

2 years ago I spent New Year's Eve at DJ Station with a gay male friend here. I was having a hard time, and just wanted the safety and no stress feeling of hanging out with the "boys". I wore a leopard print tight skirt, and towards the middle of the night took off my shirt and walked around in my bra - because I could! They loved it and were all so incredibly sweet and affectionate towards me. I got called a fag hag once the whole night by a jealous Thai katoey.

I so love gay men sometimes because they can really show their appreciation for women, and make you feel so feminine. That night reminded me of why I love gay men so much, and always manage to find them as friends wherever I am. But when I hear this term fag hag and the assumptions that go along with it, sadly I have to think twice.

And no, I don't want to shag them! Gay men don't turn me on sexually. As a rule, I'm turned on by men who are sexually turned on by women.

*edit

Edited April 23, 2006 by kat

[Ijustwannateach]

Well, ok. Apologies to any who've felt offended. The original topic is obviously a non-starter. Mods, can we close the thread?

[kat]

Steven,

You don't have to close the thread. Feel free to discuss. That's what I just did.

[the scouser]

Perhaps it is a pejorative term. I recall ChrisP previously suspending a member's account for using the term "fag hag".

Scouse.

[Steve2UK]

IMO, motive and context are everything. If one of the guys at DJ Station had put his arm around Kat and said to his friends "Hey guys, have you met my gorgeous fag hag Kat?", probably there would have been smiles and kisses and applause for her all round. Not an insult in that situation, I'd say - and think she could well have been enjoying the moment with the rest of them. The jealous katoey wants to get a rise and calls Kat a fag hag - feels like more of an insult designed to hurt.

I've spent enough time in wit-minded, sharp-tongued circles (not all gay) to know that it can get a bit cutting sometimes. Great if you can give as good as you get but, sure, it can be rough on some. I've always tried to be aware of who was on the receiving end of anything I'd say and take care that they didn't feel "got at" - rather that they enjoyed the fun.

I think, like good Jewish humour, it's a tribal thing. Jews* can tell fabulous jokes about/against themselves and I count myself lucky (as just a poor goy) that I can "get" most of them. Not the same if a non-Jew tells the same (but probably cruder) jokes - and not everyone can be a Jackie Mason. I'm 50/50 Brit/German and I LOVE good/clever lines that raise a grin (mine) at the expense of both groups.

But, OK, if it is a tribal thing - then maybe it's safer kept inside the tribe? Because, self-evidently, not everyone has the opportunity every time to know and understand the motive and context. Slang can be very useful not to say often entertaining - and I for one would be sorry to lose the benefit.

* And before anyone tells me I should say "jewish people" - I'll cite Woody Allen who said "I'm not Jew-ish - I'm the real thing"........

[Guest endure]

I think that as us gayboys have spent the past x years moaning about the labels that the breeders stick on us we ought to be a little bit careful about using labels to describe others. As Steve2UK says labelling ourselves is a different matter. Anyone for a bit of uphill gardening?

[Ijustwannateach]

^^I think Steve's got it, as far as the whole labelling discussion goes, which is still not really my topic. I have a great deal of affection for my women friends, and I don't regard most of them as "that type" in fact (and now we go round the mulberry bush of finding a substitute term, though no one's yet volunteered a suggestion, unless you'd like to use the gent's)... however, the phenomenon exists, however we wish to label "it." *And* there is a male version, which *is* the subject of this thread (as I keep pointing out).

^In the company I keep, it's not regarded as a pejorative term, but apparently this is not a universal, so I won't use it here again. You've got a point about what goes around coming around.

^^^Scouser, it's enough for me to see that two women members here object to it; I won't use it again. I'd imagine if Chris suspended someone for that there was a lot more involved- a more aggressive or offensive or homophobic attitude, history of bad behavior, etc.

"Steven"

[RonanTheBarbarian]

The problem for those on here that dislike the term "fag hag" is that there is not really a convenient replacement. And because so- called "fag hags" are definitely a phenomenon in western culture, and there is no real non-pejorative words that are equivalent, I cannot see the term disappearing anytime soon.

Calling Black people Negroes declined once people understood there was a short, snappy equivalent - Black.

Calling Gay people "Queers" declined once people understood there was a short, snappy equivalent - Gay.

But there is no real non-pejorative equivalent to fag-hag.

In any event, fag-hag tends to be a purely pejorative term anyway.

Gay men talk about "my lovely female friends", but about their gay mates "annoying fag-hags". Hence the difficulty of getting a non-pejorative equivalent term off the ground, as it were.

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok... so let's add that to the topic. What should we call 'em? And, has anyone found any of the male variety here in Thailand?

[Guest endure]

How about 'friends'? Is that not sufficient?

[Ijustwannateach]

That's the thing- I don't think most of my women friends really are... whatever it is. But I do know some women that I think are... whatever. So no, friends doesn't really cover it.

"Steven"

[Steve2UK]

Well, I did some Googling and found a partial solution - at least for the male version. This from "Urban Dictionary":

The male best friend of a homosexual guy is known as a "fag stag", providing he is heterosexual. The homosexual guy whose social contacts are mainly secure heterosexual guys is known as a "stag fag".

It's short, it rhymes, doesn't risk insulting non-gay persons - so that's alright, then.

Probably not........

[Steve2UK]

Just had a thought about the female version.....

I can't see that "fruit fly" or "fairy godmother" are guaranteeably less pejorative and "queen bee" just doesn't mean anything to me. So, how about: "Queen Sister" ?

Now can we get back to IJWT's topic? Please?

[PeaceBlondie]

Hey, Steve2UK - I'm not ready for 'stagfag' or 'fagstag' when I'm still ignorant enough that I didn't know what a 'fag-hag' was at the beginning of this thread! I think you're the one who assumed we all knew what it meant; well, I'm still the new guy here in the gay world, it appears....

"Lady who has gay male friends" - is that too lengthy?

"Straight male who has gay male friends" - that's pretty long, seven words. But it has to be that lengthy to say clearly what's intended to be said. Few of us will ever coin a term that makes it into the dictionaries, even speciality or online dictionaries. Steven asked if I had known such men. No, I pretended to be a straight male, but I usually had lunch and coffee breaks with guys who were out of the closet! I was a wannabe.

[markuk]

It's a bit anti-intuitive, but in Thailand one of the indicators that a man might be gay is if he is constantly surrounded by an entourage of beautiful young women.

hmmmmm youve got me questioning my sexuality? am i gay?? i hope not.....

[Ijustwannateach]

Maybe you *should* check! Edited April 24, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[kat]

... IMO, motive and context are everything. If one of the guys at DJ Station had put his arm around Kat and said to his friends "Hey guys, have you met my gorgeous fag hag Kat?", probably there would have been smiles and kisses and applause for her all round. Not an insult in that situation, I'd say - and think she could well have been enjoying the moment with the rest of them. The jealous katoey wants to get a rise and calls Kat a fag hag - feels like more of an insult designed to hurt.

Ok, so now that you've got it all sorted out, we should just get back to the topic about men, even though fag hag is predominantely about women and in the subject title? So I am now effectively off topic, by responding, right - ho hum

I have to tell you, that if a so-called friend ever referred to me in those terms, even in the scenario that you described, we would not be friends. It would be like me saying, hey girls and boys, look at my cute faggot-homosexual friend I believe the term is outdated, and refelcts an attitude that is gladly over and past. I am thankful that I have REAL gay male friends, that are like my family. In all of my time spent with people from the gay community, not one friend has EVER referred to me in those terms. I think that says a lot. Whenever that label was pitched towards me, it was always by someone who didn't know me, or wasn't a friend.

I think it's quite sad that in these days when a lot of bridges have been made across communities and real acceptance, a group of you still prefer to label others with demeaning, condescending terms, that my friends and I- MYSELF, marched and fought hard to eradicate the other way around.

Beyond sad, and pathetic really.

Fcking bunch of rice queens - wear that label for awhile

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok, so now that you've got it all sorted out, we should just get back to the topic about men, even though fag hag is predominantely about women and in the subject title? So I am now effectively off topic, by responding, right - ho hum

Well, technically, yes. And you're preaching to the choir. I've apologised already (more than once) and promised not to use "it" again, several members both gay and straight have added their distaste for the term, and Ronan was quite accurate, I think, in explaining why such a loaded term persists in its use. There is *no one* defending its continued use on this thread. However, there is a gaping linguistic hole (pointed out by Ronan) in terms of how to refer to the phenomenon, which does exist, without the term.

I've already asked once for the thread to be closed, and if you'd like I'll add my support to any request to have the thread re-named to remove the offensive language. However, can you rise to the challenge of finding a convenient but accurate replacement for that language? As Ronan points out, it's not as easy as it seems.

I have to tell you, that if a so-called friend ever referred to me in those terms, even in the scenario that you described, we would not be friends. It would be like me saying, hey girls and boys, look at my cute faggot-homosexual friend I believe the term is outdated, and refelcts an attitude that is gladly over and past. I am thankful that I have REAL gay male friends, that are like my family. In all of my time spent with people from the gay community, not one friend has EVER referred to me in those terms. I think that says a lot. Whenever that label was pitched towards me, it was always by someone who didn't know me, or wasn't a friend.

But no one has referred to you in that way. Occasionally I meet a gay man who likes to refer to all others as "she," or who uses the word "faggot" as a term of affection- I don't particularly like it (or the style of such men), but I don't take it at all as the same order of offense as having a straight man refer to me in that way. Some gay men (not me) might use the term as an affectionate one to explain a lady's presence with them in a gay bar, which I think was Ronan's point.

If it needs to be said, I hope I can consider you a friend of mine, and have never/would never refer to you in that manner. I used the term in my opening post as a means of referring to a phenomenon which (as Ronan points out) *has no other common name*. It's still used among gay men to refer to something which most of them understand, and not perjoratively as far as I've been able to tell (though you are correct to point out there is something inherently distasteful about it, which I hadn't thought of before). So, to the work of finding a replacement term, or discussing the phenomenon itself?

I think it's quite sad that in these days when a lot of bridges have been made across communities and real acceptance, a group of you still prefer to label others with demeaning, condescending terms, that my friends and I- MYSELF, marched and fought hard to eradicate the other way around.

Beyond sad, and pathetic really.

As I said, *NO ONE* here is still fighting to keep using the term. You're already won the argument. Really. Chill.

Fcking bunch of rice queens - wear that label for awhile

Been there, done that!