Some THAI directors worried Saudi prince's offer for Airbus too low

[EvilDrSomkid]

I don't understand what the fuss here is all about. The THAI directors have not exactly made rational decisions lately. Why would that suddenly change?

Prince Faisal should buy another plane instead. A better one and from the US. Less hassle.

1. NOTE the other 3 A340-500 aircraft are on LEASE and not used, standing idle, If we were to lease a car and let it stand in the driveway ??? we would be NUTTY.

2. Why not use one in place of the recent crashed plane ??? If you fill these planes with passengers on long haul at Thai prices you CANNOT lose money-WORK IT OUT.

1. I noticed that in the OP.

2. Now you are using logic. Tsk tsk.

Besides all that, I am fairly sure Faisal will refurbish more than just the interior. He might just spring for some new (more efficient) engines.

Edited September 17, 2013 by EvilDrSomkid

[NanLaew]

I heard the SRT are mulling an offer to borrow the plane in question to service Don Meuang - Chiang Mai until they get the rail tracks all sorted. Then they can sell it to the Saudi in November when the northern trains are all up and running again.

You KNOW it make sense.

Edited September 17, 2013 by NanLaew

[ginjag]

I don't understand what the fuss here is all about. The THAI directors have not exactly made rational decisions lately. Why would that suddenly change?

Prince Faisal should buy another plane instead. A better one and from the US. Less hassle.

1. NOTE the other 3 A340-500 aircraft are on LEASE and not used, standing idle, If we were to lease a car and let it stand in the driveway ??? we would be NUTTY.

2. Why not use one in place of the recent crashed plane ??? If you fill these planes with passengers on long haul at Thai prices you CANNOT lose money-WORK IT OUT.

1. I noticed that in the OP.

2. Now you are using logic. Tsk tsk.

Besides all that, I am fairly sure Faisal will refurbish more than just the interior. He might just spring for some new (more efficient) engines.

Although engines are 25% the cost of the whole aircraft, so the Prince would be wise to keep the NEWISH engines, Can do what you like when you have money to burn.

Why would he want them, they are very fast, fairly quiet, comfortable and extra long range-even longer if you add more fuel space.

I loved them, I used to go to Sri Lanka on their carrier, loved to fly with them.

[mca]

Tell the Thai board its haunted. They'll soon want shot of it.

[outsider]

Well, what did the spirits say?

[tingtongteesood]

Accept the offer quick before another wheel falls off !!!!!!!!!!

[rodroy]

Book value and market value two different concepts!

Maybe the directors of Thai need some basic business concepts.

[rodroy]

Why isn't the PM looking at one of these for her "important person" aircraft?

[belg]

maybe thailand can buy up all the used airplanes in the neighboorhood and start a cartel

wait, no, that did not work for the rice

what the heck, they can try anyway, no need to listen to reason or financial markets, depreciation, etc...

[bigbamboo]

Can't the THAI directors manage anything by themselves?

An offer has been made and it's up to them to say yes or no. Even a market stall holder could understand the basic business principle involved here.

Maybe they should consult some of their newly appeased spirits for advice.

Edited September 17, 2013 by bigbamboo

[tonneke breda]

Might someone (I will not disclose his name) in Dubai be in on the deal, it smells like it....

[dogeatdog]

The airbus A340 500 series was the first and only attempt by airbus to enter the market with a ultra long range, point to point aircraft that they thought there was a market for.

They modified the existing 200 series and re-engined the beast from the under powered CFM to the Trent 553.

At their initial launch of the project they identified 3 market's. South America, South Africa and Asia. The aircraft would be utilised on trans atlantic and trans pacific legs. Duration of approx 18 hours flight time.

At first there was promising signs from the industry and eventually initial orders were placed along with some "options".

When the aircraft went in production there was no other competition for this type of aircraft.

Boeing were unsure about its way in the market during this time. They had not corfirmed the update to the B744 and they were still busy with what would become B777.

All in all 32 airframes A345 were produced and all was looking positive.

Thai leased 3 examples and ventured into ultra long haul business to the US. On the strength of this success they placed a confirmed order for 1 aircraft which was delivered to them.

Then disaster struck.

First disaster was already there from the initial concept, it was hidden in the project title "ultra long range" aircraft flights.

It would appear that airbus forgot to do the consumer poll and as it turned out although point point flying (a boeing philosophy) is popular by choice, sitting in an aluminium tube for 18 hours is not. Customers who had made these ultra long flights now prefered out of choice to have a break, even if it was only for a few hours in another airport lounge.

So the passengers begain to fall away, the aircraft was becoming very expensive to operate fuel wise and now had a problem with reduced pax and revenue.

Then 2nd disaster financial crisis occured. Oil price shot up airport handling charges increased and before long the route was coming non profitable.

(Just a side note. It is not permited in aviation law in the west to operate a non profit revenue flight.)

Then 3rd disaster came. The launch of the B777. Although B777 was aimed at a different type of market, given peoples choice not wanting to fly ultra long haul then the B777 was a perfect replacement and a great success.

Shortly later Airbus ended the production.

So what to do?? Cant operate this aircraft on shorter legs as its too exspensive. Cant operate at a loss, so the best thing is to withdraw the aircraft from service and place in to storage.

Storage is also exspensive as the aircraft still has to be maintained all the time while in long term storage similar as if it was being operated. On the bottom line of your bussiness it is cheaper to store an aircraft than operate at a loss.

The contract with the leased aircraft is major league complicated.

No its not the same as hiring a car.

You cant just return it. Can explain more if people really want to know. But the bottom line is it will cost more to return the aircraft early than it will do to store it.

In regard to the aircraft thai airways own, depending on how the finance was structured with the aircraft it may or may not be a problem. It is still an asset and thus has a value given its depreciation.

Some times an aircraft can have more finance structured against it than the market value of that aircraft thus preventing any sale.

Only CFO at thai can answer this.

So back to thai airways.

They got into a spiecized market where at the time there was a big hole. No one else could offer this service of ultra long haul like BKK to JFK non stop, they were in a good position and the only possible competition would be from singapore in the whole of the region.

Thats quite a unique possition to be in and they had customers who wanted to fly these routes.

Unfortunately that market went bad on them. They took a risk against positive market indicators and became victims of it.

They are not the only airline to do this and the A345 is not the only aircraft thats suffered this fate.

Is there a market for this aircraft still today??

Possibly, but really that market would only ever be south america. And given the merky world of south American aviation it is unlikely that any new operator down there will ever get inssurance on such an aircraft for the lease.

As it stands thai airways have 3 aircraft on lease costing money. There is not much anyone can do about this, but it is a known cost per annum and can be bugeted accordingly.

The other aircraft is an asset, an asset with a value in the books. If they give that airframe away to the prince then they will have to record that as a loss which will be huge.

An airline like thai can proberly ill afford that kind of loss in 1 year period. So I can see why the board members have concern.

Unless the finance and sale can be structured across a suitable time line to reduce this loss then I fear the aircraft will never move again.

Apologies for the long post.

[Spare]

Told you.

Should not have bought any Airbus.

Stick to Boeing, it is the right choice.

Can't go wrong with anything made in the USA.

[dogeatdog]

Does that include spam as well?

[Postmaster]

Just sell them and be done with it. You can't beat market realities, it's just part of the cost of doing business.

Try to get another 1 Bn baht ! Do a counter-bid which will probably be accepted.

[siampolee]

Has it crossed anyone's mind that possibly the offer price is low as large chunk of money concerning some missing jewelry and its value may be viewed as part of the cost already paid in advance and thus it is to be deducted from this purported deal?

Those Saudi princes didn't come up with the sun this morning you know. i

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Told you.

Should not have bought any Airbus.

Stick to Boeing, it is the right choice.

Can't go wrong with anything made in the USA.

Well, I'm no great fan of Airbus...

But things didn't go too well for the Thai Air Boeing 737 that blew up on the ground at Don Muang in 2001, or the TWA Flight 800 Boeing 747 that blew up in mid-air in 1996 off the U.S. East Coast -- both found to have been caused by the ignition of flammable fuel/air vapors in the fuel tanks, believed triggered by sparks or short circuits.

All aircraft have their design and manufacturing issues, some smaller and few, others greater and many. I haven't seen anything to prove to me that Airbuses overall are safer airplanes than Boeings.

[lee b]

Why on earth is he wanting to buy from Thai int. Should he not goto Airbus direct?

[robblok]

Just sell them and be done with it. You can't beat market realities, it's just part of the cost of doing business.

They just did not value the planes properly on their balance sheet. (if they knew they were going to sell them)

The market price is always right, they made the loss the moment they decided to sell those planes (had to taken it in account already), but they did not and now they think that extra loss will look bad. Typical face thing as the loss is there already.

[ginjag]

Told you.

Should not have bought any Airbus.

Stick to Boeing, it is the right choice.

Can't go wrong with anything made in the USA.

Well, I'm no great fan of Airbus...

But things didn't go too well for the Thai Air Boeing 737 that blew up on the ground at Don Muang in 2001, or the TWA Flight 800 Boeing 747 that blew up in mid-air in 1996 off the U.S. East Coast -- both found to have been caused by the ignition of flammable fuel/air vapors in the fuel tanks, believed triggered by sparks or short circuits.

All aircraft have their design and manufacturing issues, some smaller and few, others greater and many. I haven't seen anything to prove to me that Airbuses overall are safer airplanes than Boeings.

Concord would have been a good choice for the Arabian Prince. Apart from the disaster to that France crash, 1969 was the start of the BIRD, The Americans were jealous to hell of it, an advanced version (capacity) would have suited so many airlines. One third of the time of todays aircraft, and thats 44 years ago.

Thai could have used it for their high end tourists.

Back on topic, cash flow thats what Thai needs, for replacing their aged aircraft, get your prices in line and BINGO---take the cash Thai.

[dogeatdog]

None avaliable from airbus.

Thai have the only options if you really want a 500 series.

Main bulk of the fleet is still in the hands of etihad and emirates. They still operate them but not as ultra long haul routes. They seem to be able to manage them on other routes. The singapore airlines fleet of 5 A340 are still in service plying the ultra long haul routes. I beleave this is the only airline still doing so??

Considering there recent refit of cabin too all bussiness class config I guess they intend to operate them for some considerable time.

Other than that rest of the fleet is split in to one's and two's.

[trainman34014]

Erm....would the sale not go through a lot faster if the Prince offered each member of the board 'a little something in an envelope' for a rainy day ?

[smoochy]

What is a prince of the house of Saud doing shopping for a second hand ride?

[justathought]

let the foolish idiot arab prince have it

[YeaBiGgiEs]

Why stress yourself out and be "worried"? It was an "offer", thats it. An offer can be rejected. Why not counter-offer? Also keep in mind a bird in the hand is better than two in the bush which means you should carefully consider what you have right now before you wind up paying a lot more for hesitating or being greedy.

[Notstupid30]

When people who are just a little bit rich travel, they fly first class. When you're really rich, you rent a private jet. When you're insanely rich, you fly on your very own private jet with your name painted on the wings. When you are a multi-billionaire Saudi Prince, you fly on a mind blowingly lavish $500 million customized Airbus A380. Recently it was revealed that Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal, who has a net worth of $18 billion, purchased a $300 million Airbus A380 and is spending an additional $200 million remodeling the plane into a flying palace that makes Airforce One look like a hunk of junk….

Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal is one of the wealthiest people in the Arab world. Thanks to thousands of extremely shrewd investments, the Prince was able to turn a modest fortune into more than $18 billion. Through his investment firm Kingdom Holding, Prince Alwaleed has bought up large stakes in companies like News Corp, Apple, Citigroup, Twitter and more. He owns luxury hotels like The Savoy in London, the Fairmont in San Francisco, the Plaza in New York and the Four Seasons. He owns several yachts, more than 200 cars and three incredible palaces that cover a combined 5 million square feet. When Prince Alwaleed takes delivery of his $500 million Airbus, it will be one of four massive private jets. It will also be the largest and most expensive private plane in the world.

The base Airbus A380 costs $300 million and normally fits around 800 passengers. Prince Alwaleed's Airbus A380 is being completely stripped and remodeled with the following mind blowing luxuries:

• - One parking space for his Rolls Royce
• - Concert hall with grand piano, seating for 10 and stage for private entertainment
• - Marble tiled steam room with spa treatments
• - A "wellbeing" room complete with flat screen TVs on the walls and floors that shows passengers what they are flying over
• - Five master bedroom with king sized beds, private bathrooms and showers
• - 20 smaller private rooms
• - Private elevator that connects the master bedroom to the tarmac for quick entrances and exits
• - Boardroom with holographic monitors
• - A prayer room with computer monitored prayer mats that automatically adjust to face Mecca

Link http://www.celebritynetworth.com/articles/entertainment-articles/saudi-princes-500-million-airbus-a380-blow-mind/

[phitsanulokjohn]

Price is what you pay.Value is what you get or don't get,whatever the case may be.

[biplanebluey]

Told you.

Should not have bought any Airbus.

Stick to Boeing, it is the right choice.

Can't go wrong with anything made in the USA.

I thought only horses wore blinkers !!!!!!!

[build6]

Book value matters. If they sell it for market price they must recognise a loss and this will have ramifications for their stock price as well as potentially issues with their bank loans. Their directors are probably fully aware that they're not going to have much luck finding a higher sale price but it could still make sense to just let it sit on their books than to take the loss now (since their other operations aren't going that well). $23m is a small sum that doesn't make that much of a difference to them - and if you're at the stage where $23m does make a big difference, you're in so much trouble it's not going to be enough to save you anyway.

[build6]

The singapore airlines fleet of 5 A340 are still in service plying the ultra long haul routes. I beleave this is the only airline still doing so??

scheduled for retirement very soon. I was asked if I wanted to fly on the last flight, still thinking about it...

I actually didn't mind the ultra long flights, and it was fun to have the captain tell you "we're now overflying the north pole"