Run a profitable bar/restaurant?

[whereyoufrom]

Is it really that hard?

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[MJP]

It is when there's no trade.

I've also heard commercial rents are rising very hard in popular tourist areas putting many out of business.

[NeverSure]

Running a restaurant/bar in any country is very hard, let alone make money. Add to that the fact you can't work in it and are required to have a minimum number of employees, and can own only 49% of it...

Now in Thailand try to find solid, steady employees who will actually be dependable.

Now find employees who are honest because you can't spend every waking hour there and there is access to cash and booze.

Fight the Thai culture. Go to any 7-11 and see how many are just standing around. Same same in the shops in the mall.

The minute you turn your back you will have disappointed customers because service and organization will fall apart as will your instructions about preparing food.

I have yet to find a good Western style restaurant in Thailand that can serve 5 people their meals as ordered and at the same time, or even care about it. I'm not talking about the highest end hotel restaurants; I'm talking about the kind of place you most likely would rent and "own."

Good luck.

Edited September 17, 2013 by NeverSure

[MJP]

Running a restaurant/bar in any country is very hard, let alone make money. Add to that the fact you can't work in it and are required to have a minimum number of employees, and can own only 49% of it...

Now in Thailand try to find solid, steady employees who will actually be dependable.

Now find employees who are honest because you can't spend every waking hour there and there is access to cash and booze.

Fight the Thai culture. Go to any 7-11 and see how many are just standing around. Same same in the shops in the mall.

The minute you turn your back you will have disappointed customers because service and organization will fall apart as will your instructions about preparing food.

I have yet to find a good Western style restaurant in Thailand that can serve 5 people their meals as ordered and at the same time, or even care about it. I'm not talking about the highest end hotel restaurants; I'm talking about the kind of place you most likely would rent and "own."

Good luck.

This is right. I've witnessed this first hand over the past 10 years.

Getting staff, let alone reliable dependable staff, is near impossible, even if you offer excellent pay, medical insurance, profit share, quality lodgings, holiday pay . . . You have to be there all the time and be very active in running the show.

Add to this in recent times there's been a trend amongst suppliers to suddenly and inexplicably jack the price of the foods you're dependent on up, often by a third!

A close friend has been in this situation for well over a decade. It's not fun to watch.

Edited September 17, 2013 by MJP

[wooloomooloo]

How about not a restaurant then, but a guest house / small hotel. You'd still have to be on call all hours of the day but adds another dimension.

[MJP]

How about not a restaurant then, but a guest house / small hotel. You'd still have to be on call all hours of the day but adds another dimension.

Ferocious competition against established venues, many of the older hotels will be operating debt free, not the time to buy in a land price bubble at a poor exchange rate, language barrier, cultural differences, staffing issues (see above), many would be expats contemplating this have likely never been in the hotel trade in their own country and therefore won't have a clue.

Here's a business worth looking at in Thailand . . . ECU remapping.

A link to one of the UK's best remappers . . .

http://www.celtictuning.co.uk/

[NeverSure]

How about not a restaurant then, but a guest house / small hotel. You'd still have to be on call all hours of the day but adds another dimension.

Just remember that you can't own the property or the majority of the business or work in it. How's that for having your hands tied?

Then apply all to employees that I listed above...

Why would you be on call 24 hours a day when you can't work in it? Why would you agree to be on call 24 hours a day, anyway?

It is very possible to make money in Thailand but we're reaching for the low hanging fruit that everyone else does, and usually without true success. Rent and supplies can suddenly go up. If you buy it in your wife's name...

Is running a business your life? Is that what you live for? The people I know who run difficult businesses successfully live to run the business. It's their hobby and their love and their life. Most people don't work for that reason. I never did, and you couldn't run fast enough to give me a guesthouse or bar and restaurant.

[lemoncake]

It is just as hard as running any business.

But in LOS you do have extra headache - staff.

Cooks are very hard to find and just as hard to keep.

In my experience for some unknown reasons cooks are alcoholics and often do not show up or show up drunk .

Then with bar side of things, on top of staff headaches you also have very strong competition and regular "pay outs"

Rents for good locations are high, plus crazy key money plus landlords do not want to do anything legally , ie they expect you to pay all taxes and maintenance even when it's their responsibility

[MJP]

It is just as hard as running any business.

But in LOS you do have extra headache - staff.

Cooks are very hard to find and just as hard to keep.

In my experience for some unknown reasons cooks are alcoholics and often do not show up or show up drunk .

Then with bar side of things, on top of staff headaches you also have very strong competition and regular "pay outs"

Rents for good locations are high, plus crazy key money plus landlords do not want to do anything legally , ie they expect you to pay all taxes and maintenance even when it's their responsibility

. . . and if you do establish a successful business, be sure that the landlord will be after it and you'll be out the door.

Contracts here on this level are worthless. I've recently seen a landlord decide everyone must go, the whole lot be knocked down (this is an entire street) for rebuild and if they want back in it'll be 600k Baht lease and 30k a month rent (presently 6k a month). Totally uneconomic for any of the traders, but try getting that through the landlords head who's a crazy old drunk.

There is no point.

Edited September 17, 2013 by MJP

[wayned]

Depends on your marketing strategy, your bussiness sense and if you really want to do it for a profit or just for the "fun" of it!

[samran]

Having family in the business, a typical day for a restaurant manager starts at 10am and finishes at midnight. And that is when everything runs smoothly.

[homeownership]

Running a restaurant/bar in any country is very hard, let alone make money. Add to that the fact you can't work in it and are required to have a minimum number of employees, and can own only 49% of it...

Now in Thailand try to find solid, steady employees who will actually be dependable.

Now find employees who are honest because you can't spend every waking hour there and there is access to cash and booze.

Fight the Thai culture. Go to any 7-11 and see how many are just standing around. Same same in the shops in the mall.

The minute you turn your back you will have disappointed customers because service and organization will fall apart as will your instructions about preparing food.

I have yet to find a good Western style restaurant in Thailand that can serve 5 people their meals as ordered and at the same time, or even care about it. I'm not talking about the highest end hotel restaurants; I'm talking about the kind of place you most likely would rent and "own."

Good luck.

This is so true. Its a cultural things, Thais are actually quite complacent people. If they have a job, few strive to do that job to the best of their abilities. I recent visited a cafe in Chiang Mai and there was a rather pretty girl walking around for 45 minutes with a plate, when asked by the Dutch Owner, what she was doing, she said with a giggle, she forgot what she was doing. When your up against that, running a profitable business is an uphill struggle and isn't worth the bother frankly.

[homeownership]

How about not a restaurant then, but a guest house / small hotel. You'd still have to be on call all hours of the day but adds another dimension.

They will take you to the cleaners and send you back to where ever you come from, with your pockets turned out. Broke !

[lemoncake]

Running a restaurant/bar in any country is very hard, let alone make money. Add to that the fact you can't work in it and are required to have a minimum number of employees, and can own only 49% of it...

Now in Thailand try to find solid, steady employees who will actually be dependable.

Now find employees who are honest because you can't spend every waking hour there and there is access to cash and booze.

Fight the Thai culture. Go to any 7-11 and see how many are just standing around. Same same in the shops in the mall.

The minute you turn your back you will have disappointed customers because service and organization will fall apart as will your instructions about preparing food.

I have yet to find a good Western style restaurant in Thailand that can serve 5 people their meals as ordered and at the same time, or even care about it. I'm not talking about the highest end hotel restaurants; I'm talking about the kind of place you most likely would rent and "own."

Good luck.

This is so true. Its a cultural things, Thais are actually quite complacent people. If they have a job, few strive to do that job to the best of their abilities. I recent visited a cafe in Chiang Mai and there was a rather pretty girl walking around for 45 minutes with a plate, when asked by the Dutch Owner, what she was doing, she said with a giggle, she forgot what she was doing. When your up against that, running a profitable business is an uphill struggle and isn't worth the bother frankly.

45 mins is nothing , I have had staff who after 4 months still did not know what light switch to turn on/off.

PS. There are only 2 switches

[homeownership]

Running a restaurant/bar in any country is very hard, let alone make money. Add to that the fact you can't work in it and are required to have a minimum number of employees, and can own only 49% of it...

Now in Thailand try to find solid, steady employees who will actually be dependable.

Now find employees who are honest because you can't spend every waking hour there and there is access to cash and booze.

Fight the Thai culture. Go to any 7-11 and see how many are just standing around. Same same in the shops in the mall.

The minute you turn your back you will have disappointed customers because service and organization will fall apart as will your instructions about preparing food.

I have yet to find a good Western style restaurant in Thailand that can serve 5 people their meals as ordered and at the same time, or even care about it. I'm not talking about the highest end hotel restaurants; I'm talking about the kind of place you most likely would rent and "own."

Good luck.

This is so true. Its a cultural things, Thais are actually quite complacent people. If they have a job, few strive to do that job to the best of their abilities. I recent visited a cafe in Chiang Mai and there was a rather pretty girl walking around for 45 minutes with a plate, when asked by the Dutch Owner, what she was doing, she said with a giggle, she forgot what she was doing. When your up against that, running a profitable business is an uphill struggle and isn't worth the bother frankly.

45 mins is nothing , I have had staff who after 4 months still did not know what light switch to turn on/off.

PS. There are only 2 switches

Classic !

[edwinchester]

Friend of the wifes has a highend restaurant and seems to be doing very well but has very little competition. He also has a very nice resort that gives him an excellent return.

He works extremely hard and has identified exactly who he wants as his customers.

His biggest moan seems to be the quality of and retaining of staff.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[kannot]

Running a restaurant/bar in any country is very hard, let alone make money. Add to that the fact you can't work in it and are required to have a minimum number of employees, and can own only 49% of it...

Now in Thailand try to find solid, steady employees who will actually be dependable.

Now find employees who are honest because you can't spend every waking hour there and there is access to cash and booze.

Fight the Thai culture. Go to any 7-11 and see how many are just standing around. Same same in the shops in the mall.

The minute you turn your back you will have disappointed customers because service and organization will fall apart as will your instructions about preparing food.

I have yet to find a good Western style restaurant in Thailand that can serve 5 people their meals as ordered and at the same time, or even care about it. I'm not talking about the highest end hotel restaurants; I'm talking about the kind of place you most likely would rent and "own."

Good luck.

This is so true. Its a cultural things, Thais are actually quite complacent people. If they have a job, few strive to do that job to the best of their abilities. I recent visited a cafe in Chiang Mai and there was a rather pretty girl walking around for 45 minutes with a plate, when asked by the Dutch Owner, what she was doing, she said with a giggle, she forgot what she was doing. When your up against that, running a profitable business is an uphill struggle and isn't worth the bother frankly.

45 mins is nothing , I have had staff who after 4 months still did not know what light switch to turn on/off.

PS. There are only 2 switches

Classic !

even one would confuse many of them!!

[cpofc]

Is it really that hard?

The short answer is yes. Unless you are a Hollywood Movie Star and even they stumble when they go into the restaurant business. Dealing with the public, food and alcohol all at the same time.

I am an Ex Thai Restauranteur. Although our Thai Restaurants were in Australia. All Thai staff. (95% of whom were Thai females)

Hard work. Very hard work. More than anything else I have ever done. 10:00AM - Midnight. Then some. I did everything. Cleaned my own toilets etc every day of the week for years. Pay, accounts, tax, superannuation, health and safety, maitre d, PR, Advertising, marketing, cleaner, bottle washer, EVERYTHING!

It becomes your life, totally. Everything revolves around your restaurant. Your social life is the restaurant. (thats if you want to be successful)

Very rewarding if you are good at it though. Everyone wants to be 'friends' and be on a first name basis with the owner. I never understood why people like to put restaurant owners on a pedastool. it was a job. And a damned hard and difficult one at that.

I baled out whilst I was ahead. Went out on a high.

My (thai) Wife, who remained in Australia when I baled out, recently opted out of the restaurant business and now runs a small Thai Takeaway.

Personally, I would not even consider doing it in Thailand.

[cpofc]

Forgot to mention. Cooks and staff

Cooking and running the kitchen, I was lucky my wife did that - damned good she is too!

Someone mentioned above about the 'habits' of cooks. He right.

If you have to hire cooks you will be forever at their mercy. Success is in the food you serve, everything else is secondary. Cooks will let you down. Cooks will also hold you to ransom should they make your establishment a success.

90% of our problems were staff related. The buffalo died and I have to return to Thailand, always that sort of thing. And we had minimal staff turnover and were considered to be good employers etc.

[sms747]

unfortunately owning a brothel is far more profitable.

[TheSpade]

There's a number of restaurant and bars I frequent in BKK and week to week there's never the same staff in them.

People seem to come and go all the time.

Most of the staff don't seem very skilled and simple tasks like remembering to bring plates and cutlery or understanding your order seem difficult to them.

Uphill struggle.

[HeijoshinCool]

There are a wide spectrum of potential problems opening a business here nowadays.

I've seen successful service businesses owned by Thais, as well as westerners, that once they became successful, jealousy brought physical attacks and corrupt officials to the door.

A Danish guy was beat to death on Koh Chang a few years back, for having the gall to have more customers than his neighbor. An Italian pizza guy fled back to Italy when his neighbors attacked his wife and newborn. That after the cops came by demanding 30,000 baht for no music permit, despite the fact his CD's were in a back room, and no music was ever played. The cops were paid by the neighbors.

A Thai friend who opened a backpacker resort on Koh Mak, that became very, very popular, was awakened one night by some BKK mafia hired by locals. They put a gun to his head, told him if he was still there the next night, they'd pull the trigger.

Hospitality in any country is hard enough, without having to worry about dying.

[Phronesis]

There are three essential factors to running a successful bar or restaurant:

1. Retaining good staff

2. Having comprehensive systems in place to avoid the requirement for micro management

3. Ensuring the systems are implemented.

In light of these factors, the chance that a farang owned bar or restaurant will be successful in Thailand is reduced to zero by the following issues:

1. It is impossible to find, and more so to retain, competent Thai staff

2. It is very difficult to design systems for use in Thailand because of the random nature of the business practices and culture

3. Even if you manage to get your systems in place, Thai employees will not use them. After you fire them you can then return to deal, yet again, with issue No. 1. above.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Phronesis

[somchaiyatt]

How about not a restaurant then, but a guest house / small hotel. You'd still have to be on call all hours of the day but adds another dimension.

Just remember that you can't own the property or the majority of the business or work in it. How's that for having your hands tied?

Then apply all to employees that I listed above...

Why would you be on call 24 hours a day when you can't work in it? Why would you agree to be on call 24 hours a day, anyway?

It is very possible to make money in Thailand but we're reaching for the low hanging fruit that everyone else does, and usually without true success. Rent and supplies can suddenly go up. If you buy it in your wife's name...

Is running a business your life? Is that what you live for? The people I know who run difficult businesses successfully live to run the business. It's their hobby and their love and their life. Most people don't work for that reason. I never did, and you couldn't run fast enough to give me a guesthouse or bar and restaurant.

You must not be American. All American in Thailand know Treaty of Amity and about Bill Heinecke. If you bad boss you will have bad staff problems. Good boss have good staff.

[nisakiman]

I would have thought that a small 'boutique' guest house targeting a particular demographic in Europe / USA via the internet would be relatively stress free. No food, a small bar maybe. Basically the guests look after themselves, all you do is keep the rooms clean and the place up to scratch. Marketing and booking, meet and greet.

Mind you, I am guessing here, as I've never run a guest house / hotel, although I have owned a cocktail bar here in Greece, and that was bloody hard work, even though it was a lot of fun. Doubtless someone with experience in the business will come along and tell me I'm wrong! I don't think I would want to get involved in a bar or restaurant in Thailand - too many businesses chasing too few transient punters, but a guest house with the right location and marketing approach, you have a huge potential customer base who confirm and pay up front. Or maybe I'm missing something vital here!

I was looking at prices for a hotel in Mukdahan for a couple of days in January next year (I thought the SOH and I could do some shopping in Savannakhet), and it was fully booked! Maybe there's some festival there mid January? I didn't think so. Whatever, that looks like good business to me.

[benalibina]

This topic gives priceless info and is a good laugh !

[jmunsell]

Every restaurant has three major areas that must function well to achieve its potential for success.

• 
  

  Operations. Operations include all those functions that are necessary to prepare and serve your products to your customers. It includes all those activities that take place every day in the kitchen, dining room and bar.

  
  
  
• 
  

  Financial. Financial functions deals with safeguarding cash, accounting, cash management, cost control as well as operational and financial reporting.

  
  
  
• Marketing. Marketing is getting the word out about the restaurant and positioning it correctly in the minds of the public. It includes public relations, community involvement, advertising, promotions, loyalty program and projecting the right image.
  

Now, think about how successful your restaurant could be if you regularly gave competent attention to each of these three areas. Imagine that operations was capable of consistently providing products and service in a manner that meets your high standards.

Imagine that your financial, accounting and reporting functions were organized and efficient, and provided you with timely information so that you knew exactly how the restaurant was performing and how your marketing efforts were paying off. Imagine that your marketing received the attention it deserves with the result being well-conceived and well-executed promotional activities, events and communicating to your database of regular customers.

Do you think your restaurant would be more successful if you had that level of organization and attention in each of these three areas of your business? Sure.

[breadbin]

Friend of the wifes has a highend restaurant and seems to be doing very well but has very little competition. He also has a very nice resort that gives him an excellent return.

He works extremely hard and has identified exactly who he wants as his customers.

His biggest moan seems to be the quality of and retaining of staff.

Sent from my GT-I9003 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

There's always somebody who know some hi-so big wig.

Load if rubbish.

[angrybird]

This is a good example of the old question.."How to make a small fortune here" ? To which everyone knows the answer.

Some while ago a Pattaya restaurant ? owner related his tribulations weekly in the local paper. Had to be read to be believed, encompassed all the caveats mentioned and more. It made "Fawlty Towers" look like the "Four Seasons".

I believe he turned it all into a book. I have to believe he is now in care somewhere under strong medication,

[angrybird]

unfortunately owning a brothel is far more profitable.

Plus the perks !