New Thai citizen-only one passport?

[Raesum]

I have just returned from the Royal Thai police Headquarters where my husband (Thai) and I went to initiate the process of me becoming a Thai citizen.

They told us repeatedly that I would have to give up my (Aus) passport as I could only hold a Thai passport if my application was successful. They said this had been the rule for a very long time.

I have read of others becoming citizens and there is no mention of them surrendering their passports.They did suggest I may like to "say" I'm giving up my other passport and then .....

However after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing they have said we may proceed with the application-however I am a bit apprehensive now.

[Morakot]

You should sign a document stating your intention to give up your current citizenship.

Surrendering your current passport would be new.

[Mario2008]

Per above, you must sign a letter that you intend to give up your nationality.

The nationality law itself is a bit unclear about it. The rule seem to be to not make use of your foreign passport in Thailand, that can lead to revoking of your Thai nationality. But also having another nationality in itself is not explicitly forbidden.

[Raesum]

Thank you for your replies.

So down the track I will need to write a letter stating this?

[Canada]

Just curious; what other requirements are there to become a Thai citizen?

[samran]

As others have said, it is only a letter stating your intention to renounce. But intentions can change...

I recall this rule was bought in post 2010. My wife applied in 2008 so we didn't have to do that.

Arkady will no doubt be along shortly, but he's the expert on the nuances in the nationality act.

[Raesum]

Thanks Samran.I watch your posts re your wifes Thai citizenship appln with interest.So she applied in 2008.Has it been granted yet?

Yes I'm looking out for Arkadys knowledge and also a link for "Canada" as to the requirements for citizenship application.They are numerous!

Thanks for your answer-and as for intentions changing..well you know what a womans mind can do!!!

[samran]

Thanks Samran.I watch your posts re your wifes Thai citizenship appln with interest.So she applied in 2008.Has it been granted yet?

Yes I'm looking out for Arkadys knowledge and also a link for "Canada" as to the requirements for citizenship application.They are numerous!

Thanks for your answer-and as for intentions changing..well you know what a womans mind can do!!!

Hi Raesum,

I'll let that last comment go through to the keeper, to use a cricket analogy!

We applied in 2008, but put it on hold in 2010. Last month we went to the MOI and got the application back into the system and they promised us they'll put it at the top of the pile for the next committee meeting where my wife (and myself I think) will be interviewed. The only thing holding it up at this stage is that the Thai government's financial year finishes in September, so they are waiting for the October budget allocation to come through to restart the meetings. So we wait and see, but not too much longer I hope.

All the best with your application. The guys upstairs at special branch are very helpful. Somchit who sits down the end has been very generous with his time.

[Raesum]

Ha ha your cricket analogy proves you are more Ozzie than my Thai/Oz husband!!

And yes I'm sure you will be involved with the next interview.

Todays first step was definately more about my husband than me.

He has already got a headache looking at what he needs to provide for RTP-Special Branch.Thats because in Aus he always left it up to me!!

Easy!!

[Arkady]

As mentioned above, since 2010, you have to submit a document legalised by your embassy indicating your intention to renounce your existing nationality, in the event that your application for Thai nationality is successful. There was no change in the Nationality Act that lead to this new requirement. It was simply a re-interpretation by the bureaucrats who dislike the idea of people having another nationality in addition to being Thai (despite the multinational antics of the dear leader and the dual nationality many others who must be respected). They know that certain countries require a certificate of renunciation before they confer nationality (Taiwan), while others, e.g. Korea, require a certificate of renunciation within 12 months, otherwise naturalisation to Korean will be cancelled. How do they know this? Because the same dept at the Interior Ministry has to process the renunciations of Thai nationality. They would surely like to do the same thing but the Nationality Act doesn't provide for this heavy handed nationalistic approach and the aforementioned influential dual and multinational Thais are known to have blocked or reversed moves by bureaucrats to specifically outlaw dual nationality. Anyway, when you consider that the majority of applicants are Chinese and Indian this document does a pretty good job of ensuring that the majority of applicants will comply with the bureaucrats' wishes because their embassies will likely cancel their nationality when they receive the letter from the ministry informing them that Mr or Mrs X has become Thai.

In your case, as a wife of a Thai adopting hubby's nationality under Section 9, even the rule cited by Mario does not apply. The sanctions against those who are found to be "using" their former nationality or reside abroad for 5 years only apply to those who have naturalised as Thais or who were born to alien parents in Thailand. For wives of Thai nationals the only ways you can have your Thai nationality revoked would be: if you provided false information in the application; or were later found to be guilty or a serious criminal offence or offended public morality. There have been cases of the latter but they have been restricted to convictions for serious offences such as drug trafficking. Where the conviction took place in Thailand, the revocation of nationality was ordered by the court.

Things may change to make all this invalid. But, as of now, I think you are OK to make the declaration and show willing when quizzed about your intentions, as you surely will be. Once you get it, you might want to take stock and review things. Anyway, if Oz is as slow as Thailand, it probably takes some time to complete all the paperwork to get rid of your nationality. When you depart the LOS at Swampy, you should be able avert the prying eyes of immigration men and women, who are renowned for their ignorance of Thai law and xenophobia, by slipping through the automatic gates. Same thing on the way back in.

As for saying that had been the rule for a very long time. The rule about the declaration which is merely a ministerial guideline without the force of law because it was never published in the government gazette appeared in late 2009 and started being enforced in early 2010. The current Nationality Act has been in force since 1965 and nothing relevant to this aspect has ever been amended. Earlier versions of the Act were specific in prohibiting dual nationality, although not in this particular case of a foreign woman marrying a Thai. This is because they didn't need to be since most countries automatically cancelled the nationality of woman who married aliens, as, indeed, Thailand used to. The 1965 Act in fact deliberately made ambiguous certain provisions that in previous versions of the Act had specifically prohibited dual nationality, e.g. the case of a Thai naturalising as an alien and made it an option for a Thai woman marrying an alien to renounce Thai nationality, rather than an obligation, although the mandarins at the ministry will give a different interpretation, if anyone is so foolish as to ask them.

[samran]

As mentioned above, since 2010, you have to submit a document legalised by your embassy indicating your intention to renounce your existing nationality, in the event that your application for Thai nationality is successful. There was no change in the Nationality Act that lead to this new requirement. It was simply a re-interpretation by the bureaucrats who dislike the idea of people having another nationality in addition to being Thai (despite the multinational antics of the dear leader and the dual nationality many others who must be respected). They know that certain countries require a certificate of renunciation before they confer nationality (Taiwan), while others, e.g. Korea, require a certificate of renunciation within 12 months, otherwise naturalisation to Korean will be cancelled. How do they know this? Because the same dept at the Interior Ministry has to process the renunciations of Thai nationality. They would surely like to do the same thing but the Nationality Act doesn't provide for this heavy handed nationalistic approach and the aforementioned influential dual and multinational Thais are known to have blocked or reversed moves by bureaucrats to specifically outlaw dual nationality. Anyway, when you consider that the majority of applicants are Chinese and Indian this document does a pretty good job of ensuring that the majority of applicants will comply with the bureaucrats' wishes because their embassies will likely cancel their nationality when they receive the letter from the ministry informing them that Mr or Mrs X has become Thai.

In your case, as a wife of a Thai adopting hubby's nationality under Section 9, even the rule cited by Mario does not apply. The sanctions against those who are found to be "using" their former nationality or reside abroad for 5 years only apply to those who have naturalised as Thais or who were born to alien parents in Thailand. For wives of Thai nationals the only ways you can have your Thai nationality revoked would be: if you provided false information in the application; or were later found to be guilty or a serious criminal offence or offended public morality. There have been cases of the latter but they have been restricted to convictions for serious offences such as drug trafficking. Where the conviction took place in Thailand, the revocation of nationality was ordered by the court.

Things may change to make all this invalid. But, as of now, I think you are OK to make the declaration and show willing when quizzed about your intentions, as you surely will be. Once you get it, you might want to take stock and review things. Anyway, if Oz is as slow as Thailand, it probably takes some time to complete all the paperwork to get rid of your nationality. When you depart the LOS at Swampy, you should be able avert the prying eyes of immigration men, who are renowned for their ignorance of Thai law and xenophobia, by slipping through the automatic gates. Same thing on the way back in.

Worse case (which won't happen) is that renunciation become effective, you reapply for Australian citizenship which is more or less automatically returned so long as you are of good character.

[Raesum]

I certainly am of good character however I became an Australian citizen about 20 years ago- I wasn't born there!

How much has your wife had to pay this far into the process?.There is no mention of any amount of money for whatever processes in the information given to us yesterday.There was certainly a suggestion that we might be asked to provide some tea money.

[samran]

I certainly am of good character however I became an Australian citizen about 20 years ago- I wasn't born there!

How much has your wife had to pay this far into the process?.There is no mention of any amount of money for whatever processes in the information given to us yesterday.There was certainly a suggestion that we might be asked to provide some tea money.

If there has been any fees it has been just the official application fee circa 5000 baht I think. Basically all we did was collect all the documents on the list, going back to special branch 2 or 3 times to makes sure it was how they wanted it. On the final time, he took the paperwork and sat down and processed the application ticking off the boxes and askeig us basic questions of how we met, what I do etc.

A few weeks letter there was the MOI interview at Burger King, Victory Monument and a bit later down the track a visit to out local police station for some paperwork. All the docs submitted went off for vetting (eg tax payment receipts were real, that my military exemption form was legit etc) and we received a letter that we'd cleared that stage and that the paperwork has been sent to MOI.

But apart from the official fee, nothing.

[cooked]

When I got Swiss nationality years ago I was supposed to do nothing to prolong by UK passport. However the UK embassy told me that inside their embassy it was UK laws that were applicable, not Swiss. I would have a word with the Oz embassy, I'm sure they don't care if you also have Thai nationality despite their issuing an intent to renounce.

[AYJAYDEE]

and yet they have no problem with a thai woman having dual citizenship and two passports!!

[Mario2008]

and yet they have no problem with a thai woman having dual citizenship and two passports!!

They have a problem with that as well. It is not a question of gender.

But there is a difference between someone born with Thai nationality and someone who applies for Thai nationality through naturalisation. In the last case, many countries require you to relinguish your old nationality and in Thailand it means that you can nott use your other nationality. Which is fair. You cannot become a Thai national and then when troubles arrise claim you are a *** national and ask for consular assistence from your embassy.

[AYJAYDEE]

and yet they have no problem with a thai woman having dual citizenship and two passports!!

They have a problem with that as well. It is not a question of gender.

But there is a difference between someone born with Thai nationality and someone who applies for Thai nationality through naturalisation. In the last case, many countries require you to relinguish your old nationality and in Thailand it means that you can nott use your other nationality. Which is fair. You cannot become a Thai national and then when troubles arrise claim you are a *** national and ask for consular assistence from your embassy.

well i dont see they have a problem with it. i know lots of thai women carrying two passports

[Raesum]

I have a Thai husband who carries 2 passports.

Gee Samran-that fee is unexpected! We heard it was about 300,000THB!!!

Yikes having to declare to my Embassy that I intend to give up my citizenship to become a Thai citizen is a bit serious. I think I will go and have a chat to the Embassy -good suggestion.

[samran]

I have a Thai husband who carries 2 passports.

Gee Samran-that fee is unexpected! We heard it was about 300,000THB!!!

Yikes having to declare to my Embassy that I intend to give up my citizenship to become a Thai citizen is a bit serious. I think I will go and have a chat to the Embassy -good suggestion.

nope, fee is 5000 baht. It isn't shown on this, but this was the list of requirements that SB gave us. I suspect yours will be similar, and as you said, more about your husband.

Thai_Naturalisation___Female.pdf

You are probably confusing it with the fee for PR, which is up around 191000 baht from memory.

As for giving up citizenship, as others have said, you won't have to. But here if the form anyway, and there is a very clear eligibility to resume it when you had to give it up to take up another citizenship.

http://www.immi.gov.au/allforms/pdf/132.pdf

Edited September 26, 2013 by samran

[Arkady]

and yet they have no problem with a thai woman having dual citizenship and two passports!!

They have a problem with that as well. It is not a question of gender.

But there is a difference between someone born with Thai nationality and someone who applies for Thai nationality through naturalisation. In the last case, many countries require you to relinguish your old nationality and in Thailand it means that you can nott use your other nationality. Which is fair. You cannot become a Thai national and then when troubles arrise claim you are a *** national and ask for consular assistence from your embassy.

You can ask for assistance from your embassy. For example, if Thailand is embroiled in a civil war and Western embassies are evacuating their citizens, they will not leave behind their citizens who are also Thailand nationals. What you can't do in most cases is get consular assistance to protect you against the government of Thailand. For example, example Western embassies can decline to help you, if you are in trouble with the law. Generally this makes little difference because most Western embassies grudgingly give the minimum assistance to their nationals they think they can get away with. The US is a notable exception. The US embassy will even go in to bat for its dual citizens, e.g. the Thai-American who was imprisoned for lese majeste for posting a translation into Thai of part of a Yale University Press publication deemed offensive to the monarchy on a US based website. China would have said the US was interfering in its internal affairs, if the US made diplomatic representations on behalf of some one they deemed to be a Chinese citizen but Thailand interestingly didn't raise an objection on the grounds that the convict was also Thai.

On the other hand naturalised Thais risk losing their Thai nationality for "using" their former nationality, if they ask a foreign embassy for diplomatic intervention on their behalf but please note that this doesn't apply to women with Thai husbands who apply under Section 9 because they do not get naturalised under Thai law and therefore there is no legal sanction against them using former nationality.

[Arkady]

When I got Swiss nationality years ago I was supposed to do nothing to prolong by UK passport. However the UK embassy told me that inside their embassy it was UK laws that were applicable, not Swiss. I would have a word with the Oz embassy, I'm sure they don't care if you also have Thai nationality despite their issuing an intent to renounce.

For a modest fee the Swiss embassy in Bkk provides a special visa for the Thai passports of Swiss who also have Thai nationality so they can make it look as if they don't have a Swiss passport when they go past Thai Immigration. The Oz embassy will not give a flying fosters what you do after signing the declaration, as long as you pay them their fee. When I had to get same from my embassy, the moronic Thai staffer, after the time honoured tradition of power tripping local staffers working in farang embassies in Bkk tried to refuse to do it, suggesting I could only renounce my citizenship, which is actually impossible without having another one, and even gave me the forms to do it. Finally I got to talk to a real vice-consul who burst out laughing when she understood what the Thai government wanted but agreed to legalise the declaration. She also poointed out, as Samran has said, that, if I did renounce citizenship, there was statutory right to reclaim it, if one could show it had been renounced for the purpose of obtaining or retaining another citizenship (for a fat fee of course). I think I was the first to ask for it at my embassy.

I don't know what the 300,000 fee is for. Lawyer perhaps? Don't forget that you need to be in a yellow tabien baan to apply and this must be for a Bkk address for you to apply in Bkk. Applying in the provinces is more difficult because there are no dedicated departments to take your application outside Bkk and some provinces might either refuse to accept your application because they can't be bothered, or agree to do it but mess it up because they have no clue how to do it, resulting in your application being rejected by the MoI a couple of years later. Thus having a Bkk address is hugely preferable. No time limit for the tabien baan. You can apply the day after you get it.

Not that it makes much difference but the interview, usually 2-3 months after your application is with the NIA (National Intelligence Agency) not the MoI. Currently it takes places at Macdonalds, Chidlom, as that is much more convenient for applicants than the NIA's office. :Your interview with the MoI will take place about 3 years or more after your application, unless you can get someone to pull strings for you, at the MoI head office. You will be interviewed with your husband and will be asked the same questions asked by Special Branch and the NIA.