thai wife cant own land

[Arkady]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

no that is not the issue the subject came up in a conversation with a thai friend the other day

not all thai ladies are cheats and scammers

Is yours different too????

I have come across cases where Thai wives have persuaded or tried to persuade a farang husband or bf to buy in a family members' name or build on land owned in the name of a family member. The reasons for this may vary and it could be as simple as wanting to give something to impoverished parents. On the more Macchiavelan side it could be because the wife is heavily in debt and doesn't want the creditor to grab the property, or in a case where the marriage to the foreigner has not been registered, she might be still legally married to a Thai man and not want him to grab half of the property. She may also be indebted to the family member and putting the property in his or her name may be a way of repaying the loan. Whatever the disclosed or undisclosed reasons for this, if you are going to build upcountry where the construction costs are a multiple of the land cost, don't do this. If you are given a free piece of land owned by a family member to build on in mid Sukhumvit, I would advise differently.

Another reason for getting a usufruct or long term lease in your name, is that it makes it virtually impossible for your wife to sell the property or to register a formal lien or sale or redemption transaction on the property, if she borrows money. No buyer or lender will want a property that is encumbered with a usufruct or long term lease.

[mushroomdave]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

no that is not the issue the subject came up in a conversation with a thai friend the other day

not all thai ladies are cheats and scammers

breadbin did just say "Be on your guard" as a warning. No mention of cheat/scammer although warranted as I know this happens.......1st hand.

[bigbamboo]

It was and is a matter of interpretation because the Land Code is not specific on this point. Prior to the letter of the Ministry of Interior (most urgent No. Mo 0710/vor 792 dated 23 March 1999), correctly cited in translation by Tywais above, the legal interpretation was totally sexist in that Thai men with foreign partners could buy land freely without resitriction while Thai women with foreign partners, whether legally married or not, were prohibited from doing so. It made no difference whether they had assumed their foreign partner's name or not but that was, of course, a dead give away in the Land Department. (Since adopting a husband's name on marriage was mandatory in Thailand at that time, many couples avoided this by marrying abroad.) The 1997 Constitution rendered this type of vicious discrimination against Thai women unlawful to the extent that the Interior Ministry, spurred on by women's groups, was eventually forced to capitulate and abandon its chauvanistic position. In fact there are now two options for Thais with foreign spouses to lawfully buy land and I quote from Samui for Sale:

1. The Thai spouse has to show evidence that all money paid is a personal property (Sin Suan Tua) according to section 1471 and section 1472 of the Civil and Commercial Code, or;

2. that the Thai and his/her spouse must present themselves at the Land Office (*) to confirm in a standard Land Office letter of confirmation that all money paid for the property is personal property (Sin Suan Tua) not a common property (Sin Som Ros).

Of course the easiest thing to do is simply to sign the declaration in the Land Office.

Since the 1999 letter is just that, a letter rather than an amendment of the Land Code, it should be viewed for what it is which is a temporary measure that could be changed with another ministerial letter without going through parliament. And there is clearly a school of thought in the ministry that views it as too easy for foreigners to buy land through Thai spouses by making the declaration. In 1999 the then director general of the Land Department caused a bit of a stir by saying this:

"Foreigners cannot use a Thai spouse as a nominee to buy property in Thailand, However, if the Thai spouse has enough money to buy the house that is fine, but if the Thai has no money and uses money given to him or her by a foreigner to acquire property, that is against the law. If we check and find out later that a Thai person has been using money from a foreigner to buy land anywhere in Thailand, we will revoke title deeds."

It seemed as if the director general was attempting to rescind the 1999 letter without putting pen to paper. In the event this turned out to be mere male menopausal grandstanding on his part in a feeble attempt to prop up his obviously wilting self esteem by stooping to the last resort of a scoundrel which, those who know their Johnson are well aware, is patriotism.

Be that as may be we need to be alert for any moves that would in fact make option 1 above the only way for a Thai with a foreign spouse to acquire land legally. If things ever did change, it would be unlikely to apply retroactively. At any rate, before panicking we should be mindful of the reasons that the letter was issued in the first place: 1) requiring land officials to police option 1 is too onerous and could cause another back lash by Thai women's groups; 2) there is no desire on the part of chauvanistic ministry officials to make it more difficult for Thai men with foreign partners to buy land. There is also a fine legal argument from the Civil and Commercial Code that any money acquired by either party to a marriage after marriage is common conjugal property (Sin Som Ros). Therefore there would be clear legal grounds for challenging the land department in that money earned by the foreign spouse was automatically the Thai spouse's property as well.

Johnson also said that a man's life is incomplete until he marries and then it's finished.

I wonder if he had this part of the world in mind?

[transam]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

no that is not the issue the subject came up in a conversation with a thai friend the other day

not all thai ladies are cheats and scammers

breadbin did just say "Be on your guard" as a warning. No mention of cheat/scammer although warranted as I know this happens.......1st hand.

It certainly does, if me there would be alarm bells, but perhaps the officer dealing with it is a numnut, ask to see the boss.

[Arkady]

But it is true that she will have to declare the funds as hers alone and you will have to sign paperwork of no claim as her husband when married. This is the new system - previously land department would just not register ownership so in effect wife could not own new property if married to a foreigner and it was known (by name change).

Fine example of how Thailand takes money from foreigners but gives nothing back. We have very few rights here, even if we have children with a Thai we still need Visas, the only country I know like this. What happens if we run out of money, children will suffer terribly if parents are separated. I think the government look on it that if a Thai has married "out" they are traitors and should go to the "outsider's" country. It does make me angry in 2013 this is still law, racism, pure racism. What is going to happen after 2015 with Asean, I hope Thailand becomes less racist.

Land ownership and right of abode are two separate issues, even though there may be some similarities. Thailand has always felt that land ownership was a matter of national security and that thousands of wealthy foreigners would grab virtually every square milimetre of Thai soil, if they were allowed to. There is a background of unequal treaties that permitted foreign nationals to buy land up until 1970 that was considered a dire threat at the time, although the threat was mitigated by the obstructivism practiced by Thai officials responsible for approving foreign land purchases. I don't think this is going to change in the foreseeable future. As far as foreign investment is concerned they can grant BOI privileges to own land for a limited time and most foreign investors prefer to lease anyway. Land for commercial use can already be rented for 50 years, since 1999, and any further changes in the light of the AEC are likely to take the form of longer leases for various types of foreign investment. Note that other ASEAN members restrict foreign ownership and some (Vietnam, Laos) don't even allow their own citizens to own freehold land.

As far as immigration is concerned, the obligations under the AEC are, as far as I know, to allow freedom of labour movement, initially restricted to only six professions, but not to allow rights of abode. In addition, Thailand has MOUs (renewed annually) with Burma, Cambodia and Laos to allow labourers to work in Thailand and gives them 10 year pink alien ID cards. So I think the answer is that nothing will change on rights of abode even for ASEAN nationals with Thai spouses in 2015.

[nontabury]

But it is true that she will have to declare the funds as hers alone and you will have to sign paperwork of no claim as her husband when married. This is the new system - previously land department would just not register ownership so in effect wife could not own new property if married to a foreigner and it was known (by name change).

Fine example of how Thailand takes money from foreigners but gives nothing back. We have very few rights here, even if we have children with a Thai we still need Visas, the only country I know like this. What happens if we run out of money, children will suffer terribly if parents are separated. I think the government look on it that if a Thai has married "out" they are traitors and should go to the "outsider's" country. It does make me angry in 2013 this is still law, racism, pure racism. What is going to happen after 2015 with Asean,

" I hope Thailand becomes less racist".

Don't bet on it.

[Muhendis]

Wow Arkady. What a lot of reading you made me do. Excellent stuff and, although I was aware of some of it, It's nice to have it laid out so clearly. There is also an additional point that I may be mistaken about and that is: Some time ago my wife was told that she, as a Mrs. Farang, would not be allowed to own anything greater than 50 rai. This to prevent surreptitious foreign land grabbing. Wasn't the law originally made to stop the chinese influx?

[shawn11]

My partner of 8 or so years, and I have bought 6 or so blocks of land(obviously in her name) since we have been together with no hassles. However last time I was at home she went to transfer a new block we had bought to her name. I opted to stay at home and watch the footy. A couple of hours later she called me and asked me to come to the land/ transfer office as they would not transfer the land. Upon arrival, I had to sign a document stating that in the event of a seperation, I would not contest the ownership of the land.

The guy at the land office knew I was fairly f*cked off about it and as he has met me on numerous other occassions, explained to me that it is a new requirement.

I am not even married, they picked up the fact that I am around because in our house book, my 2 daughters have my surname.

[smotherb]

It never ceases to amaze me why so many foreigners want to buy land in a country which does not allow it when there are so many other places in which to invest your money in your own name.

[sancs001]

You are all right about the issue... But how about foreign ladies married to Thai men?

But I guess all of you, replying to the initial issue, are men?

So am I...

But it's a flagrant discrimination towards Thai women already, if we consider the differences in treatment on immigration issues to start with...

Probably, coming back to the original issue, there are different rules again?

[dave24450]

What about a Thai wife that was born in Thailand but became a naturalized citizen in the U.S.? Can she still purchase land in Thailand?

[FiftyTwo]

You are all right about the issue... But how about foreign ladies married to Thai men?

But I guess all of you, replying to the initial issue, are men?

So am I...

But it's a flagrant discrimination towards Thai women already, if we consider the differences in treatment on immigration issues to start with...

Probably, coming back to the original issue, there are different rules again?

The number of foreign ladies married to Thai men is negligible, and therefore not a problem.

[Muhendis]

What about a Thai wife that was born in Thailand but became a naturalized citizen in the U.S.? Can she still purchase land in Thailand?

She was borne and registered in Thailand therefore she is Thai and has all the rights that other Thai women have.

[Bcgardener]

 

 

It would have been a bit easier if my wife had kept her Thai name at marriage. Seeing farang name on chanote upgrade application very likely upped the tea money at the Land office.

Before we were married Thai friends in Australia advised my wife to keep her surname for this reason (this was before 1999). Now we are living in Thailand it makes everything so much easier. That farang surname on the ID card appears to be an excuse to want more money for everything, whether buying land or the tea money with government departments. She also doesn't advertise the fact that she has an Aussie passport as this creates similar issues.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Good point Bc. When we married in Australia, we went to Thai consulate and were advised by the officer there not to change her surname. She also has an Australian passport. No problems with land owning or travelling. Check in at the airport with the Aussie passport, enter leave Thailand on the Thai passport. Enter or leave destination country on the Aussie passport, unless going to Laos.

 

but surely she must have to show the airline counter her aussie passport as well as the thai  or they would not let her on the plane without a visa

 

When we leave Thailand she checks in with both passports and only shows the Aussie one at immigration if they ask about visas. When we come back to Thailand we check in at Sydney with both passports but only use the Oz one at immigration. We had an instance once where Thai immigration would not let her enter on her Thai passport as they said she was on the flight as an Aussie but this was resolved after a lengthy ''discussion''. The two passports can have problems as we are living in Thailand but the Oz one is so much easier in every other country we go to.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[dazk]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

no that is not the issue the subject came up in a conversation with a thai friend the other day

not all thai ladies are cheats and scammers

breadbin did just say "Be on your guard" as a warning. No mention of cheat/scammer although warranted as I know this happens.......1st hand.

and he also said maybe she is telling me that because she wants in in a family members name implying she is lying or cheating me

Edited September 29, 2013 by dazk

[dazk]

Maybe your wife is telling you that because she wants to put it in a trusted family members name???!!

Be on your guard.

no that is not the issue the subject came up in a conversation with a thai friend the other day

not all thai ladies are cheats and scammers

Is yours different too????

meaning what exactly

[asiamaster]

When we moved to Thailand in 1997 we did not change my Thai wife's name in her Thai passport to my surname.

When we actually bought land & house in 2003 in her name ( but yes- I hold a 30 year lease )the law had indeed changed.

But this country does have a history of just changing laws back again so we left it that way.

[hawksway]

Provided She retains a Thai ID card there is no problem but my guess is that the Lady has spent time abroad and let it lapsed or lost it?

Just get you Wife to apply for a new ID Card. Provided the land is being bought with money she has earned it's O.K. It's not legal though if She is acting as a nominee and the money is coming from you or another Foreigner.

[puukao]

I knew a guy who bought a house for his Thai wife; two houses actually for about 10 million baht. Married for about 8 years. She then kicked him out. He went to court for about a year, and got nothing. All i'm saying is, "be careful". He was promised 50%, but instead will soon be completely broke and homeless. Sad. I guess rent for a few years, and maybe buy a place in your home country. not sure, but i've seen a lot of sad stories over this one.

Edited September 29, 2013 by puukao

[WilliamCave]

Not true

And my wife has property in Chiang rai nontaburi Chumphon .

Different areas so your wife can own land anywhere in Thailand

[vtjforyou]

Why changing name ? So useless except to show off with friends ?

[mike123ca]

My wife and I have been married for ten years, last year her father gave her and her siblings farm land from his estate. She went to the land office to have the property put into her name. I was not required to sign any papers. I was wondering if this would be considered part of the marriage property or only as a gift to my wife.

[Mario2008]

My wife and I have been married for ten years, last year her father gave her and her siblings farm land from his estate. She went to the land office to have the property put into her name. I was not required to sign any papers. I was wondering if this would be considered part of the marriage property or only as a gift to my wife.

Believe that depends on the will itself. The will can declare that it is the property of the wife only.

Regeradless, it is never joined property as you cannot own land. The only question is if in a case of divorce you would be entitled to half of the value.

[Berkshire]

Does the OP's wife have a Thai ID card? That's really all that matters.

[dighambara]

No, it is NOT true.

Many years ago there was a restriction on Thai women who married foreigners from owning land, but this was changed decades ago.

Taking your name or not makes no difference.

ROTFLMAO.

If it did make a difference, then all those with foreign last names, like Wongsawat or Shinawat would be disallowed...LOL

If one examines a registry or two, Portuguese, Spanish, and English surnames are found throughout Thailand.

I presume Thais believe Wanida is a Thai name (Juanita)..??

[dazk]

Does the OP's wife have a Thai ID card? That's really all that matters.

yes she has i thai id card with my surname

[Berkshire]

Does the OP's wife have a Thai ID card? That's really all that matters.

yes she has i thai id card with my surname

Ok then, she has proof of Thai citizenship. That's all she needs.

[Arkady]

Wow Arkady. What a lot of reading you made me do. Excellent stuff and, although I was aware of some of it, It's nice to have it laid out so clearly. There is also an additional point that I may be mistaken about and that is: Some time ago my wife was told that she, as a Mrs. Farang, would not be allowed to own anything greater than 50 rai. This to prevent surreptitious foreign land grabbing. Wasn't the law originally made to stop the chinese influx?

The original version of the 1954 Land Code included a limit on land holdings by Thais of 50 rai per head. Pibulsongkran, the military dictator in power at the time, felt it was important to prevent landlordism from taking a hold in the Thai countryside and creating a class of landless peasants who would be easy meat for indoctrination by communists. There was a lot of opposition to the bill which was regarded by many as communist in and of itself, despite the intention to create a bulwark against communism. It took the maximum time permitted by the constitution to secure the King's signature but the law was ultimately passed. The law also imposed maximum holdings on foreigners - 1 rai for residential, 10 for agriculture and, I think, 5 for religious purposes - who were allowed to own land under the 19 treaties in force at the time. By 1959 Pibul had been booted out in a coup and his successor, Sarit, had the Land Code declared unconstitutional. It was reinstated minus the limits for Thai nationals but the limits for foreigners remained. That is the only instance I know of that a Thai citizen has been limited to holding 50 rai and it applied to all Thais, including royalty, regardless of whether they had foreign spouses or not. Since the lifting of the 50 rai limit every now and again some romantic calls for its reinstatement as a means to ensure fair redistribution of agricultural land. I think the last time was only a few years ago.

[Arkady]

My wife and I have been married for ten years, last year her father gave her and her siblings farm land from his estate. She went to the land office to have the property put into her name. I was not required to sign any papers. I was wondering if this would be considered part of the marriage property or only as a gift to my wife.

In this case there is no need to sign the declaration because the land is a generational family transfer at nil consideration. Therefore there is no need to specify the source of funds because technically no funds were involved. Mrs Arkady acquired a piece of land from an aunt and it was classified like this at the suggestion of the land officer to save transfer tax. She offered to have her old man come in a sign the piece of bumpf but the land officer said it wasn't relevant for the reason given above.

As far as I know, inheritances are not considered part of conjugal property under the CCC.

[Muhendis]

Thanks again Arkady.

However you have raised a question or two. Firstly you wrote:-

"1 rai for residential, 10 for agriculture and, I think, 5 for religious purposes - who were allowed to own land under the 19 treaties in force at the time. By 1959 Pibul had been booted out in a coup and his successor, Sarit, had the Land Code declared unconstitutional. It was reinstated minus the limits for Thai nationals but the limits for foreigners remained".

This seems to say that a foreigner can own 15 rai with a house on 1 rai, grow crops on 10 rai and have a church on 5 rai. Against that we are to understand that foreigners are not allowed to own land.

Secondly. You are a veritable mine of legal information. How come?