When bikers go wild

[wantan]

Wow, now posting things the shocked wife said in her first statements when she had zero information about what really had happened? I have read a lot too and it seems that at the moment most of the "facts" aren't proved in any way. I understand you, seems that the majority of us citizens thinks these all are dangerous thugs just looking for trouble.

[RubberSideDown]

Right- you're proven wrong, so you back-peddle and pull out a strawman fallacy and try to make it about 'Americans' to deflect from how weak your actual point is (though people from all over the world have weighed in with their opinions on this and many other sites)- that's a cowardly way to argue your point, but I guess that's all that will work for you.

I tried, but there's no way to have an honest debate with someone who does that- it's just a waste of time.

[RubberSideDown]

OK- sorry for the hostile post above- this whole situation has really bothered me- it's in my hometown, and I keep thinking of how my mother or someone else could have been caught up in it.

I ride and I love it, but this situation will make things difficult for many riders in NY and elsewhere, and it was totally unnecessary- I blame the riders because they set off with an agenda (like they always do) and didn't give a damn about anyone else's safety.

I feel badly for the guy that was run over, but 'lay down with dogs and you'll get fleas...'

[wantan]

CBS says that two off-duty NYPD officers were at the scene of the melee, one of them riding with the bikers. It will be interesting to hear what they have to say.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/04/undercover-narcotics-detective-among-motorcyclists-involved-in-west-side-highway-incident/

Edited October 5, 2013 by wantan

[BSJ]

Well it appears the bikers are not just a bunch of kids out making mischief on a Sunday afternoon. There's a good number of them who have had run-ins with the law.

It will be interesting to hear the undercover cops statement.

Edited October 6, 2013 by BSJ

[wantan]

Well it appears the bikers are not just a bunch of kids out making mischief on a Sunday afternoon. There's a good number of them who have had run-ins with the law.

It will be interesting to hear the undercover cops statement.

AFAIK the cops and detectives riding with the group were off-duty. There wasn't an official "undercover investigation". One of the officers has retained a lawyer. Maybe they were just riding with the group to have some fun? NYPD officers "terrorizing" their own city?

And in a new twist to the saga, a law enforcement source confirmed that off-duty NYPD officers were in the pack of bikers.

The NYPD told 1010 WINS that Internal Affairs is investigating six officers who rode in the biker group.

A source said it is believed the officers took part in the physical assault on Lien, and the officers are not seen on video. However, one has retained a lawyer and is not commenting.

It was not immediately clear if the officers took part in the chase up the Henry Hudson Parkway that precipitated the attack on Lien.

One of the officers, an undercover narcotics detective, informed officials that he was at the scene at the time of the incident.

NYPD Internal Affairs is investigating, WCBS 880 reported.

Source: CBS, October 5

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/05/another-biker-charged-in-washington-heights-melee/

[denkiblue555]

^^ On the covers or under them, either way it is a good thing.

I've heard that there were a lot of stolen bikes on this ride, and quite a few were seized.

I guess 'you play stupid games, you win stupid prizes' applies here...

This guy has got quite a few 'before' vids on his channel for those interested:

http://youtu.be/N_K3fHxfX1k

[wantan]

CNN's Piers Morgan talks with Gloria Allred and the wife of the biker paralyzed in the New York biker attack incident:

Edited October 8, 2013 by wantan

[bobbin]

No license for the injured biker since 1999? Must be a reason for that...

Never endorsed for motorcycle license?

He will probably get some payout from the SUV driver's insurance but it will probably (and IMHO correctly) be about 20% of what he would have received in a one-on-one accident.

And Gloria Allred? The very definition of an ambulance-chasing, publicity-hound lawyer with another female client....

[JonnyF]

No license for the injured biker since 1999? Must be a reason for that...

Never endorsed for motorcycle license?

He will probably get some payout from the SUV driver's insurance but it will probably (and IMHO correctly) be about 20% of what he would have received in a one-on-one accident.

And Gloria Allred? The very definition of an ambulance-chasing, publicity-hound lawyer with another female client....

Legally speaking, I don't see the relevance of whether he had a licence or not. Maybe it will reduce the amount the insurance pays out for his injuries, but not in terms of the case against the SUV driver. The SUV driver didn't know the history of that guy when he drove his Range Rover over the top of him so I doubt he'll be able to use that in his defense.

Could be wrong though.

[wantan]

New witness confirming there was an accident before the first stop we see in the video:

http://www.myfoxboston.com/video?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9391343

Edited October 10, 2013 by wantan

[yankee99]

New witness confirming there was an accident before the first stop we see in the video:

http://www.myfoxboston.com/video?autoStart=true&topVideoCatNo=default&clipId=9391343

I'm sure they will confirm that by the 911 tapes of the first time the crazed, postal anti bike suv driver

went postal. I am looking forward to see the video that will free the seven role models already arrested

[RubberSideDown]

How'd his mirror get broken before the stop? That wasn't from knocking someone over.

Why didn't the biker who pulled the brake-check mention this, and why did he say he had no intention of slowing down or stopping the SUV (which he said in his news interview) but was only looking for his friends?- it seems like that would be a valid argument on his part- now this guy says the intention WAS to stop the SUV (but all they wanted was an 'apology' for knocking someone off his bike? That warrants a bit more than an apology.)

Several bikers had cameras- where's the video?

[wantan]

^

Lots of questions and i am sure you know the answer already. After the incident the police did its best to turn all bikers into dangerous criminals by realeasing unproved "facts" about slashed tires and attacks to the SUV at the first stop. IMO its the fault of the police that its so hard to find out the truth now. And i am not sure they want to find out.

Why doesn't Mr. Lien and his wife tell us where the mirror got broken? They should know too, shouldn't they?

[RubberSideDown]

^

I'm going by what the guy who pulled the brake-check said in an interview two days ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFmr7oyFoYw

Edited October 10, 2013 by RubberSideDown

[wantan]

^

You seem to have forgotten what the guy who did the brake check is accused. He is accused the brake-check was the cause for the attack on Mr. Lien and the run over of Mr. Mieses. He may faces a year in jail just for doing this stupid brake-check. Having this in mind of course he tries to say it wasn't his intension to make the SUV stop. Is this a lie? IMO no, its just his defense strategy. Though maybe not the best. Its the same as Mr. Lien saying he had no other choice as to run over bikes and bikers. Also not truth or lie, but a strategy to justify his decision.

[RubberSideDown]

^

I saw the video, and I think he's lying-- in this case, it's not about accounts as far as the major incident goes- it's on film.

My point is we have two interviews of bikers who were on site at the incident, and they are completely opposite ('We were trying to stop him' vs 'We weren't trying to stop him'- someone is lying)- if I were Lien, I wouldn't say anything either- they are hanging themselves.

[wantan]

^

The new witness has seen the accident the SUV has caused before the first stop. In the video he is speaking about his own thoughts. Nothing more. Why should he know anything about the intensions of Mr. Cruz for doing the brake-check?

IMO the silence of Mr. Lien shows some fear he may has done a big mistake. And i am sure he regrets what he has done. I don't think he would do it again like this. But he will have to keep on claiming there was no other choice for the rest of his life.

[RubberSideDown]

If Cruz did a brake-check (which he obviously did) his intention was to slow or stop the SUV (that's what a 'brake-check' is- hitting your brakes unnecessarily with the sole intention of causing the person behind you to brake), so we know what his intentions were.

I completely disagree with you re: Lien- like everyone else, he has a lawyer tellng him what to do, and he has nearly everyone on his side at this point- he has nothing to gain at this point by speaking out.

He knows he's probably going to be sued, so anything he says could potentially give the plaintiff ammunition to use in court later- he doesn't need to make any comments right now (though he will later).

Edited October 10, 2013 by RubberSideDown

[JonnyF]

^

The new witness has seen the accident the SUV has caused before the first stop. In the video he is speaking about his own thoughts. Nothing more. Why should he know anything about the intensions of Mr. Cruz for doing the brake-check?

IMO the silence of Mr. Lien shows some fear he may has done a big mistake. And i am sure he regrets what he has done. I don't think he would do it again like this. But he will have to keep on claiming there was no other choice for the rest of his life.

I am pretty sure Lien regrets it as well. Seems clear that the bikers started this mess and ultimately shoulder the blame, but had Lien backed down he might have been pissed off for a few minutes and then continued with his comfortable life.

By standing up to them, he now has a few scars, years of legal battles and potentially some underground figures after him - I'm guessing the guy who was run over has some pretty unsavory friends/family all too happy to make amends.

Reminds me of Thailand in some ways. There's been a few times I've wanted to 'make a stand' but ultimately you're risking a lot to gain nothing. I love a gamble, but not when a 'win' means so little and a 'loss' can mean so much.

[yankee99]

^

The new witness has seen the accident the SUV has caused before the first stop. In the video he is speaking about his own thoughts. Nothing more. Why should he know anything about the intensions of Mr. Cruz for doing the brake-check?

IMO the silence of Mr. Lien shows some fear he may has done a big mistake. And i am sure he regrets what he has done. I don't think he would do it again like this. But he will have to keep on claiming there was no other choice for the rest of his life.

I am pretty sure Lien regrets it as well. Seems clear that the bikers started this mess and ultimately shoulder the blame, but had Lien backed down he might have been pissed off for a few minutes and then continued with his comfortable life.

By standing up to them, he now has a few scars, years of legal battles and potentially some underground figures after him - I'm guessing the guy who was run over has some pretty unsavory friends/family all too happy to make amends.

Reminds me of Thailand in some ways. There's been a few times I've wanted to 'make a stand' but ultimately you're risking a lot to gain nothing. I love a gamble, but not when a 'win' means so little and a 'loss' can mean so much.

Or if he didnt run maybe they would have not only harmed him but his wife also. Who knows what these animals may have done. Looking at their previous rap sheets its a disgrace that our legal system failed so badly.

[RubberSideDown]

I'm sure he regrets getting out of bed that morning.

This new claim that Lien knocked someone off his bike previous to the filmed incident is very interesting- I would believe contact was made (obviously- broken mirror) but I doubt he actually knocked someone off, which certainly would have led to injuries and bike damage (which would have been easy to produce days ago).

The behavior of the bikers in the video doesn't indicate they were particularly wary or afraid of Lien- had he knocked someone off, I think they would have been a bit more cautious around him.

[JonnyF]

^

The new witness has seen the accident the SUV has caused before the first stop. In the video he is speaking about his own thoughts. Nothing more. Why should he know anything about the intensions of Mr. Cruz for doing the brake-check?

IMO the silence of Mr. Lien shows some fear he may has done a big mistake. And i am sure he regrets what he has done. I don't think he would do it again like this. But he will have to keep on claiming there was no other choice for the rest of his life.

I am pretty sure Lien regrets it as well. Seems clear that the bikers started this mess and ultimately shoulder the blame, but had Lien backed down he might have been pissed off for a few minutes and then continued with his comfortable life.

By standing up to them, he now has a few scars, years of legal battles and potentially some underground figures after him - I'm guessing the guy who was run over has some pretty unsavory friends/family all too happy to make amends.

Reminds me of Thailand in some ways. There's been a few times I've wanted to 'make a stand' but ultimately you're risking a lot to gain nothing. I love a gamble, but not when a 'win' means so little and a 'loss' can mean so much.

Or if he didnt run maybe they would have not only harmed him but his wife also. Who knows what these animals may have done. Looking at their previous rap sheets its a disgrace that our legal system failed so badly.

I very much doubt it, even after he gunned it and ran over 2 of them, the wife and kids were still untouched when they inevitably caught up with him and beat him. Why would they do more than that after he'd just clipped one of them 20 minutes earlier?

Worst case they might have scratched his car or burst a tyre at the point he was stopped and surrounded (before he ploughed through them) but I see no reason to think they'd go after the women at that point given that they left them alone even after things had escalated to breaking point.

Of course he didn't know that so I'm not blaming the guy (assuming he panicked rather than simply losing his temper), but I'm guessing if he'd pulled over and let them go when he first saw them then this would be a decent anecdote for him at the restaurant the following night, rather than such a major life event.

[RubberSideDown]

Witnesses say someone tried pulling his wife out of the SUV before he was told to leave her alone by bystanders, so they weren't exactly untouched- while I agree they probably wouldn't have injured his wife and child on the highway, who's going to risk their family on 'probably'? Not me. There wouldn't have been any bystanders on the highway...

Consuegra said the riders started hitting the car, and that one of them tried to grab Lien's wife, who was in the car along with their child.

"She was kind of making some sounds," he said. "I saw a baby inside; she had the baby in her arms, I guess she was protecting the baby from all the glass that was flying inside and outside."

He said bystanders started screaming for the woman and baby to be left alone, and the biker let go.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/06/man-who-intervened-in-nyc-biker-suv-brawl-says-felt-intense-danger-as-protected/

Edited October 10, 2013 by RubberSideDown

[JonnyF]

Witnesses say someone tried pulling his wife out of the SUV before he was told to leave her alone by bystanders, so they weren't exactly untouched- while I agree they probably wouldn't have injured his wife and child on the highway, who's going to risk their family on 'probably'? Not me. There wouldn't have been any bystanders on the highway...

Consuegra said the riders started hitting the car, and that one of them tried to grab Lien's wife, who was in the car along with their child.

"She was kind of making some sounds," he said. "I saw a baby inside; she had the baby in her arms, I guess she was protecting the baby from all the glass that was flying inside and outside."

He said bystanders started screaming for the woman and baby to be left alone, and the biker let go.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/10/06/man-who-intervened-in-nyc-biker-suv-brawl-says-felt-intense-danger-as-protected/

I understand why these biker idiots are unpopular, especially if you've had personal experiences with them as it seems some posters have.

I just think the media (Fox news tend to be the worst offenders) pick a side and then give countless sensationalist reports to back up that opinion, rather than just reporting what happened. I don't buy into it and prefer to make my own opinion.

My stance is pretty simple, the bikers created the problem and are ultimately to blame, but I believe that if the SUV driver had been calmer and swallowed his pride for a few minutes then the incident could have been avoided.

[denkiblue555]

1. The bikers started the problem by breaking the law.....countless traffic violations and all that.

2. The bikers endangered themselves and the lives of many, many people on the roads if you watch videos from the ride (I don't watch TV FWIW).

3. In the actual 'incident' the biker put all his mates behind the 4WD in danger, as well as himself and the occupants of the RR.

Why is it cool to go around as a mob causing trouble on the roads?

Why is it anymore acceptable on the roads than say, public transport systems or other public spaces?

I definitely agree with the above that Lien would have wished he hadn't gotten out of bed that day, but really, don't you guys think that others would have acted even worse...tougher?

Morons cruising round with no licences on stolen bikes with no tags are just asking for trouble.

I just think it sucks now that these morons have ruined it for other bikers....plenty of guys in the stunt/moto scene show respect.

[wantan]

An NYPD undercover detective riding off-duty that day is now charged being an 'active participant' in chasing and beating of the SUV driver:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/detective-face-additional-charges-biker-attack-article-1.1480552

Maybe it was the police who caused this chaos by making lots of road blocks? Seems the police wasn't a great help for the citizens of NY that day. And imo they still are not. All very similar to Thailand.

[yankee99]

An NYPD undercover detective riding off-duty that day is now charged being an 'active participant' in chasing and beating of the SUV driver:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/detective-face-additional-charges-biker-attack-article-1.1480552

Maybe it was the police who caused this chaos by making lots of road blocks? Seems the police wasn't a great help for the citizens of NY that day. And imo they still are not. All very similar to Thailand.

I am surprised at your statement. "And imo they still are not." NYC is one of the safest big cities and the crime rate has been going down for years. Last year something like 400 homicides which has got to be low for a population around 8million.

Personally i dont agree with the way they keep it safe but its hard to argue their success rate.

[Familyonthemove]

If the bikers had just reported the SUV driver to the Police after the alleged first incident the driver may have been convicted of careless driving.

If they had reported him after he deliberately ran over someone and they used the video evidence and the off duty policemen witnesses as evidence then the SUV driver would now be facing jail for criminal assault or worse.

But because some of the bikers bikers wrongly used violence the SUV driver is going to get away with use a car as a weapon.

Also - the final outcome and the pictures of the wife in the car show that the only risk to his wife and daughter were created by his dangerous driving.

If nothing more than to show justice is being done and also to protect the SUV driver against any more violence - the police should charge him as well as the bikers and let the Courts decide on guilt or innocence.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Familyonthemove

[yankee99]

http://www.cbs12.com/template/inews_wire/wires.national/3dfb312c-www.cbs12.com.shtml

NYC grand jury indicts 11 bikers in highway brawl

November 09, 2013 02:19 GMT

NEW YORK (AP) -- A grand jury has indicted 11 bikers, including an undercover New York City police detective, on various charges related to a motorcyclist-SUV highway melee.

The indictment Friday says undercover detective Wojciech Braszczok (VOY'-chek BRAZH'-ahk) was charged with gang assault, criminal mischief, riot and other counts.

Prosecutors have said Braszczok participated in the Sept. 29 attack by shattering the SUV's back window. He was off duty at the time. Attorney John Arlia (ahr-LEE'ah) didn't immediately return a message seeking comment.

Police say that after the SUV driver bumped a bike that had slowed in front of the vehicle, motorcyclists converged on the vehicle. Police say the driver, while trying to get away, ran over a biker then motorcyclists caught up with the driver and beat him. The driver hasn't been charged.