The Grey Man "The truth revealed"

[chooka]

If Tony is bullshite take it up with the Australian Government who accept him and register the NGO. I guess you have more checks and balances in place than they do. By the way what is your alternative motive for disputing the Australian government. Someone interfering in your sexual activities?

[thailiketoo]

Oh please...... This is not a 12 yr old schoolgirl topic. Google everything and you will see it is supported by Australian Governments and Tony exists They Grey or it's board are not ficticious they actually exist and consist of high profile Australian citizens including high court judges.

I googled everything and could find no reference to Tony Ryan. Do you know who he is? He claims he is a Baptist and has a Southern drawl. Now you say he is an Aussie. He says, he is an American who owns his own charity. I don't think he is a credible source but if you have any links to prove different please share them.

I googled Australian Government Grey Man resigns and I got

1. Grey Man President Resigns After ....... Investigation ...

2. Sex trafficking charities exaggerating number of victims to ... - YouTube

3. Charity chief resigns amid claims of fake child rescues.

Then I tried, "Australian federal police gray man charity" and got

1. Rescue boss out over claims of fake 'victims' - Sydney Morning Herald

2. Doubt cast over charity group The Grey Man's sex ... - The Australian

Edited November 2, 2013 by thailiketoo

[chooka]

Oh please...... This is not a 12 yr old schoolgirl topic. Google everything and you will see it is supported by Australian Governments and Tony exists They Grey or it's board are not ficticious they actually exist and consist of high profile Australian citizens including high court judges.

I googled everything and could find no reference to Tony Ryan. Do you know who he is? He claims he is a Baptist and has a Southern drawl. Now you say he is an Aussie. He says, he is an American who owns his own charity. I don't think he is a credible source but if you have any links to prove different please share them.

I googled Australian Government Grey Man resigns and I got

1. Grey Man President Resigns After ....... Investigation ...

2. Sex trafficking charities exaggerating number of victims to ... - YouTube

3. Charity chief resigns amid claims of fake child rescues.

ok I'II leave you with it.

[Showbags]

If Tony is bullshite take it up with the Australian Government who accept him and register the NGO. I guess you have more checks and balances in place than they do. By the way what is your alternative motive for disputing the Australian government. Someone interfering in your sexual activities?

We do not know who Tony is because Tony has not told anyone who he is, so cannot go on anymore than that.

Your last 2 sentences do not make sense, but the last one is a little off.

[Showbags]

Oh please...... This is not a 12 yr old schoolgirl topic. Google everything and you will see it is supported by Australian Governments and Tony exists They Grey or it's board are not ficticious they actually exist and consist of high profile Australian citizens including high court judges.

I googled everything and could find no reference to Tony Ryan. Do you know who he is? He claims he is a Baptist and has a Southern drawl. Now you say he is an Aussie. He says, he is an American who owns his own charity. I don't think he is a credible source but if you have any links to prove different please share them.

I googled Australian Government Grey Man resigns and I got

1. Grey Man President Resigns After ....... Investigation ...

2. Sex trafficking charities exaggerating number of victims to ... - YouTube

3. Charity chief resigns amid claims of fake child rescues.

ok I'II leave you with it.

No links then, but he is credible as you say and we have to believe you.

I hope you are right, but at the moment you are just another guy on the internet.

[RubbaJohnny]

Ignoring the so called events in Thailand and I doubt anybody who was not there will ever know.

There is one aspect of the case I find odd.

I have spent a lot of time i Australia full of good and bad but a very long history of enslavement,abuse and convicts.

In my lifetime kids were taken from Europe and aboriginal communities to work unpaid on farms and we have the lost generation enndless prison cell deaths outside the misions.THe Prime Minister apologised for these deeds a few years back.With a child abuse disaster in NT seems strange that oddly named group should operate in a country where foreigners are loathed the authorities flexible and often unresponsive to externals.

Seems plenty of scope for these fine judges and off duty citizens to investigate right there in the Commonwealth,no exotic trips or mastery of the language required.The police and courts available.

Finally there is no such thing as original 'story' all are mere reports.It would be not be impossibe for someone here to visit and report rather than[post.

If folks wish to support good work the Red Cross ,Mercy Centre and WHO are all helping eradicate disease and poverty.If abuse is your target I think there is plenty to do in Australia .

[Showbags]

Ignoring the so called events in Thailand and I doubt anybody who was not there will ever know.

There is one aspect of the case I find odd.

I have spent a lot of time i Australia full of good and bad but a very long history of enslavement,abuse and convicts.

In my lifetime kids were taken from Europe and aboriginal communities to work unpaid on farms and we have the lost generation enndless prison cell deaths outside the misions.THe Prime Minister apologised for these deeds a few years back.With a child abuse disaster in NT seems strange that oddly named group should operate in a country where foreigners are loathed the authorities flexible and often unresponsive to externals.

Seems plenty of scope for these fine judges and off duty citizens to investigate right there in the Commonwealth,no exotic trips or mastery of the language required.The police and courts available.

Finally there is no such thing as original 'story' all are mere reports.It would be not be impossibe for someone here to visit and report rather than[post.

If folks wish to support good work the Red Cross ,Mercy Centre and WHO are all helping eradicate disease and poverty.If abuse is your target I think there is plenty to do in Australia .

Quite right, but Australia is a rich country full of resources and wealth and rules and law that help protect, does not obviously always work, but the chance for a fair go is 1000% better in Australia than here in Thailand.

These people with the odd name, well they look at it from the point that the perpetrators try to avoid the Australian obstacles and take the easy option, visit a foreign country where it is easier to exploit and get away with it and it is easier here, much, it was a lot easier years ago when these people started for the bad people to do what they do.

The authorities here did not and to some extent, still do not care. They care more now though as they have seen the BIG show they can get from taking in a foreigner.

So the odd group was simply wanting to do something when they saw their own countrymen come and exploit children in the worst possible way and get away with it.

I fully support them for those actions and reasons. I may not support 100% the way they went about it or the results they get, but the ideal is outstanding.

[simon43]

@chooka

In response to your comments, I not in any position of authority to speak for TGM. I am an in-field volunteer for TGM for many years - and I continue to support them.

Andrew has not ridiculed MY intelligence (I am playing on your words here). I provide supporting intel where I can - no more, no less. Therefore I was not involved in any way with that event, working in Myanmar at the time and I can bring no additional info to the discussion as to those events. But my experience with TGM and some of their senior members over many years means that they have my continued support.

Simon

[metisdead]

A flame post has been removed.

[icare999]

As far as I can see these moralistic NGOs are generally run by people whose only real interest is for themselves. The always seem to have a hidden agenda.

What a stupid comment.

The old saying about a few bad eggs and all.

sorry to say ive seen enough so called charity workers on expenses in 5 star hotels all expenses paid to despise the lot of them. Their could be a few who genuinely care or want to do good but mostI witness are more interested in perks of job than helping anyone but themselves. A lot of them will claim they get no salary but their lifestyles show the nasty truth. Houses fully paid for, school fees all paid, cars provided, all travel expenses, meals out paid for as expenses and of course all groceries, toiletries, beauty salon and rest. Worst scum of earth in my book a lot of them and those so called missionaries here are the worst.

[ericthegoalie]

Drummond is a well known Thai journalist.

• Fox Television
• Observer Film Company
• Observer
• News of the World
• Evening Standard/Daily Mail
• Fleet Street News Agency (TVNS)
• Reading Chronicle/Berkshire Mercury

Who is Tony Ryan?

Mr Drummond is not a Thai journalist. He is a journalist working in Thailand. But in answer to 'Who is Tony Ryan?'

Does it matter. You are committing an ad hominem fallacy. It is information that he puts forward that is important. Why would you think that Tony Ryan would use his real name anyway?? Given the trouble that Grey Man received and if he does run his own charity why would he give a real name and the name of his charity. I would think that would be suicide especially if he also has business interests in Thailand.

The real question is 'Is the information he is providing believeable?' Personally I think it is. He gave Mr Drummond the opportunity a number of times to answer the questions he posed. Mr Drummond ignored the opportunity.

But really it doesn't matter because it is obvious here (and this has been shown in numerous studies as well) that new information will be ignored, trivialised or glossed over because it is not that Mr Drummond presented a new story but that he simply reinforced biases from the past that various people jumped on to support their world view about charities.

The bias comes first and then we seek out information that supports that bias. And it doesn't matter whether you are a supporter of grey man or antagonistic towards them you will seek out the information that supports your bias and ignore or find fault with the rest.

If you believe for instance as Icare999 says '

sorry to say ive seen enough so called charity workers on expenses in 5 star hotels all expenses paid to despise the lot of them...are more interested in perks of job than helping anyone but themselves. A lot of them will claim they get no salary but their lifestyles show the nasty truth. Houses fully paid for, school fees all paid, cars provided, all travel expenses, meals out paid for as expenses and of course all groceries, toiletries, beauty salon and rest.

Then when Tony Ryan says ' In Grey Man, no one gets paid, they are all volunteers and no money has ever been spent to buy cars, houses, holidays, or junkets to NGO seminars. Grey Man never went to them because they considered them talkfests that achieved little and wasted donors money'

We have a contradiction here but is the new information absorbed. Usually no, because our brains usually work overtime to build up a case for our bias. So we say instead 'Who is tony Ryan?', he has no credibility, he is a 17 year old, he doesn't turn up on google searches. That makes it easy to overlook the information he is providing.

And yet, everything I have been able to check that he mentions is correct. He quotes from a number of emails. Can I prove those quotes are true. No, but then when Mr Drummond was asked to confirm whether some of the quotes were an accurate representation of his email conversations with John Curtis, Mr Drummond declines to answer. A simple yes or no would have told us a lot. Mr Ryan mentions the so called fake trafcord page. Has anyone visited it? I have and as Tony Ryan suggests it is very suspicious and appears to be an anti-grey man propaganda page with no content about the village.

I also found the grey man blog entry that Tony Ryan mentions that discusses the rescue of a 21 year old. Everything he says there is on the blog page. So he appears to not be making things up (at least the ones that I can check). His posts are very long and very detailed and for people who think he has just made stuff up I suggest that he has put an incredible amount of effort into doing so and I doubt that is the case when much of what he says can be checked.

Still I realise that it doesn't matter. If you have a belief as Kitten Kong does that 'As far as I can see these moralistic NGOs are generally run by people whose only real interest is for themselves' or Beetlejuice's post ' I have said many times in the past, that the NGO organisations are simply, jobs for the lads' then even if there are no jobs because they are all volunteers no knew information will change anything because it comes from a world view developed over time that charities are all in it for themselves. Whether it is correct or not doesn't matter. We will fight to the last breath defending it.

I don't mean to be critical of the people on here because I am as guilty of bias as everyone else but I believe that Tony Ryan has provided enough information to put doubt in anyone's mind as to whether the original story by Mr Drummond was true. But to have doubt you would have to actually read Mr Ryan's posts and I can see that people are NOT doing that. To me that is the most fascinating part of this.

[Showbags]

As far as I can see these moralistic NGOs are generally run by people whose only real interest is for themselves. The always seem to have a hidden agenda.

What a stupid comment.

The old saying about a few bad eggs and all.

sorry to say ive seen enough so called charity workers on expenses in 5 star hotels all expenses paid to despise the lot of them. Their could be a few who genuinely care or want to do good but mostI witness are more interested in perks of job than helping anyone but themselves. A lot of them will claim they get no salary but their lifestyles show the nasty truth. Houses fully paid for, school fees all paid, cars provided, all travel expenses, meals out paid for as expenses and of course all groceries, toiletries, beauty salon and rest. Worst scum of earth in my book a lot of them and those so called missionaries here are the worst.

How do you know their toiletries are paid for and beauty salon etc?

And how do you know about the ones that stay in friends or associates homes, or budget hotels, when the ones you see must be staying in the 5star hotel that you must also be in to see them.

No doubt many rourt the system, but not good to clasify them all in the same class.

And paying for expenses is something you can argue till the cows come home. How do you expect to get the job done if you do not pay people or cover expenses. Not everyone can afford to give up their life to do such things. It takes money to make money.

[thailiketoo]

Ericthegoalie wrote, "The real question is 'Is the information he (Tony Ryan) is providing believable?' Personally I think it is. He gave Mr Drummond the opportunity a number of times to answer the questions he posed. Mr Drummond ignored the opportunity."

End of quote Ericthegoalie.

Drummond is a journalist in Thailand who is published in a number of other countries. He is subject to legal action if he does not tell the truth. Tony Ryan is a fictitious name used by an anonymous poster on the INTERNET and is not.

If any reputable news source gives the same level of credibility to an anonymous poster with a fictitious name on the INTERNET as a published journalist please let me know because I have never heard of such a thing.

If I was a published journalist and some anonymous poster called me out on an INTERNET forum would I be obligated to respond?

If you want to believe an anonymous INTERNET poster with a fictitious name, “up to you.”

The last I read was not from Drummond, it was from Sydney Morning Herald http://www.smh.com.au/national/rescue-boss-out-over-claims-of-fake-victims-20120325-1vsox.html

"THE head of an Australian charity accused of faking the rescue of Thai hill-tribe children from sexual slavery has resigned.

The former Australian army commando xxxx xxxxxxx stepped down from the Grey Man charity at the weekend following new claims about the organisation and an investigation into the children by Thailand's Department of Special Investigation."

Forget about journalists from Thailand read, www.theaustralian.com, www.brisbanetimes.com.au and www.smh.com.au Are all of those newspapers wrong?

Edited November 4, 2013 by thailiketoo

[ericthegoalie]

Drummond is a journalist in Thailand who is published in a number of other countries. He is subject to legal action if he does not tell the truth. Tony Ryan is a fictitious name used by an anonymous poster on the INTERNET and is not.

Forget about journalists from Thailand read, www.theaustralian.com, www.brisbanetimes.com.au and www.smh.com.au Are all of those newspapers wrong?

You are still committing an ad hominen fallacy which means you are looking at the man rather the information. If I said that smoking was bad for you and provided evidence for why but I also smoked then you might attack me for being a hypocrite but that doesn't mean that the information I provided was wrong. Also you quote these newspapers as if that gives them credibility but who was behind each article:

www.theaustralian.com, .........................Andrew Drummond

www.brisbanetimes.com.au ...................Katherine Feeney who basically did a rehash and referred to the article by Lindsay Murdoch and a few quotes from the new president

www.smh.com.au .........................Lindsay Murdoch

So to quote the media as if it is some great holder of truth is silly when the stories all came from two sources Lindsay Murdoch and Andrew Drummond. Tony Ryan points out where (he says) they both got it wrong and Mr Murdoch was shown to have gotten it wrong with the Love in Action charity.

'If I was a published journalist and some anonymous poster called me out on an INTERNET forum would I be obligated to respond?'

I actually think YES. If the questions were not unreasonable and were aimed at getting to the truth of the matter and brought up questions about an article that I wrote.

Some of the questions were in relation to things that Mr Drummond said on the Cambodian site. Here are Tony Ryan's questions again:

Why did you do this story when as you say you appear to have lost money? Were you hoping for a different payoff

When did you go to the village?

Are the conversations between you and John Curtis that I mentioned in emails a true representation of the conversations?

Why did you not bother to ask any further questions after John Curtis told you about the role of Todd M. Bate-Poxon at the US consulate or the use of Grey Man impersonators by Trafcord?

There is a lot of information in my post yet you don’t seems curious about any of the questions that they raise about the activities of Trafcord. Why?

Why would Grey Man name a village if they wanted to scam the public? John could have made up a name and no-one would be wiser. Naming the village meant it was checkable. Obviously Grey Man weren’t too concerned with people checking on the kids. Seems strange don’t you think for a scam?

Where are the kids now? They are not in the village. Gee, I wonder why not? Could it be that they were put into a shelter because they were trafficked?

Why would Trafcord buy them school uniforms. They already had some paid for by Grey Man (second hand but OK)? Was there something special about these kids…like being trafficked for instance?

Why did the police question all of the children bar the three that were orphans? They must have known they were orphans which flies in the face of your and Trafcord’s statements that ‘Indeed all the children are happily at home with their parents’. Isn’t that a bit difficult if you are an orphan since orphans don’t have parents.

What would you do if it was proved that the kids were from other villages to the north and were trafficked?

Now some of these questions I am sure are unanswerable by Mr Drummond but the simplest one is:

'Are the conversations between you and John Curtis that I mentioned in emails a true representation of the conversations?'

Because, after all Mr Drummond did say at post 85:

'Tony Ryan: ‘Drummond even said to John in a private email, ‘If I printed what you told me you would never be able to return to Thailand’.

Tony Ryan also claims he has seen videos of the kids saying they have been trafficked. Videos and EMAILS [my emphasis] please...'

SO MR DRUMMOND IS ASKING FOR EMAILS

And at Post 88 Tony Ryan replies:

'Andrew you already have this email in your email folder but I misled you with the quote, my bad. I have the email in front of me now and before I was going off memory so forgive me. I should have said I was paraphrasing. The actual quote from Andrew Drummond is ‘A lot of stuff you have said I cannot use because – well I guess you want to come back’ Look at January 5-7in your email folder. I am sure you can find it. After all you are an ‘INVESTIGATIVE’ journalist Please look or have you overlooked another important detail? If you find it please let me know. I will wait with baited breath'.

If I was asked to confirm that I already had an email in my possession after asking for the email I would simply say 'Yes, I have found it and you are correct' or 'No, that is not correct', unless I was afraid of embarassment or had something to hide. I can only speculate as to why Mr Drummond would not simply confirm or deny the presence of these emails and why would giving the date that you visited a village be a problem. The other questions although probably unanswerable certainly make you wonder.

For instance, and this seems really obvious (to me at least) 'If the kids are in a shelter, why are they in a shelter?' They were supposedly going to school in the village and living happily with their parents. Can you see any need for perfectly happy kids who go to school in their village to be moved to a shelter? I can't but maybe I am missing something.

Mr Ryan's questions are not unreasonable and since Mr Drummond has the credibility that you give him why could he not answer these questions? At least the email one?

[ericthegoalie]

Now that is interesting. Who told you Tony Ryan was a teenage prankster?. he certainly doesn't write like one. It seems to me that the first thing people do when they don't like someone's message is to attack the messenger. Tony Ryan seems to have intimate knowledge of what went on with the grey man rescue and a lot of background information on the people who gave Lindsay Murdoch the supposed information he used in his article. Let's say that he is a17year old prankster. Does it matter. His information seems credible and sadly for a 17 year old prankster (if he is) he managed to run rings around a seasoned journalist, Mr Drummond.

I think he also explains why John Curtis resigned, which again seemed reasonable to me. And I wonder whether, like so many other people here, you bothered to actually read Tony Ryan's posts because you say:

'If that is untrue I'm sure The Greyman organization would have taken legal action'.

For a start how could you take legal action against an obvious fact. John Curtis did resign following new claims...' but Tony Ryan also explains why. He also mentions in relation to Mr Drummond's article and taking legal action:

'Funny the way the uninformed think. Someone on Thai visa said ‘When you print something you expose your newspaper to libel laws’ so therefore the story of a fake rescue had to be true is what I think he was trying to say. But he doesn’t get it. John [Curtis] contacted lawyers who said he probably had a case but the Weekend Australian could spend a lot more money and could keep him in court till his money rang out and payouts for defamation often did not amount to much. John had already spent $60,000 on children and had no money left'.

As for letting Tony and Andrew work this out in some other forum. Well Mr Drummond did have the chance but chose not to answer the questions. This isn't even about them though. This is about a story which was given a lot of credibility at the time but now that new information has surfaced it puts the original story in doubt. All I am concerned with is if an injustice has been done and would like other people to discuss it on its merits. I think I have been polite about it and I actually like Mr Drummond. I hope he continues to point the finger at the corrupt but he may have gotten it wrong in this instance.

If you see no reason to be involved then don't be. Simple.

As for writing on this forum where Mr Drummond can't answer I am simply trying to provide a reasonably objective view of the new information (although I admit, to me, it has the ring of truth) since this topic has generated a lot of interest in the past both for and against and someone else started this thread by providing a link to Tony Ryan's posts. Unfortunately, people are making comments, apparently without reading Mr Ryan's posts.

I am not into conspiracy theories but I find it very strange that someone would suddenly come up with the story that Tony Ryan is a 17 year old prankster. That smacks of disinformation. So please let me know where you heard that gem of wisdom!

[thailiketoo]

Now that is interesting. Who told you Tony Ryan was a teenage prankster?. he certainly doesn't write like one. It seems to me that the first thing people do when they don't like someone's message is to attack the messenger. Tony Ryan seems to have intimate knowledge of what went on with the grey man rescue and a lot of background information on the people who gave Lindsay Murdoch the supposed information he used in his article. Let's say that he is a17year old prankster. Does it matter. His information seems credible and sadly for a 17 year old prankster (if he is) he managed to run rings around a seasoned journalist, Mr Drummond.

I think he also explains why John Curtis resigned, which again seemed reasonable to me. And I wonder whether, like so many other people here, you bothered to actually read Tony Ryan's posts because you say:

'If that is untrue I'm sure The Greyman organization would have taken legal action'.

For a start how could you take legal action against an obvious fact. John Curtis did resign following new claims...' but Tony Ryan also explains why. He also mentions in relation to Mr Drummond's article and taking legal action:

'Funny the way the uninformed think. Someone on Thai visa said ‘When you print something you expose your newspaper to libel laws’ so therefore the story of a fake rescue had to be true is what I think he was trying to say. But he doesn’t get it. John [Curtis] contacted lawyers who said he probably had a case but the Weekend Australian could spend a lot more money and could keep him in court till his money rang out and payouts for defamation often did not amount to much. John had already spent $60,000 on children and had no money left'.

As for letting Tony and Andrew work this out in some other forum. Well Mr Drummond did have the chance but chose not to answer the questions. This isn't even about them though. This is about a story which was given a lot of credibility at the time but now that new information has surfaced it puts the original story in doubt. All I am concerned with is if an injustice has been done and would like other people to discuss it on its merits. I think I have been polite about it and I actually like Mr Drummond. I hope he continues to point the finger at the corrupt but he may have gotten it wrong in this instance.

If you see no reason to be involved then don't be. Simple.

As for writing on this forum where Mr Drummond can't answer I am simply trying to provide a reasonably objective view of the new information (although I admit, to me, it has the ring of truth) since this topic has generated a lot of interest in the past both for and against and someone else started this thread by providing a link to Tony Ryan's posts. Unfortunately, people are making comments, apparently without reading Mr Ryan's posts.

I am not into conspiracy theories but I find it very strange that someone would suddenly come up with the story that Tony Ryan is a 17 year old prankster. That smacks of disinformation. So please let me know where you heard that gem of wisdom!

Eric AKA Tony Ryan or whoever you are have an axe to grind. All the information was published a year ago in the Australian press. If you presented any new information the Aussie press would beat a path to your door. The Aussie press is not in a conspiracy to withhold information. Write them a letter. I don't think you are a credible source but if you are they will jump at the chance to get the true story.

[Tim207]

Eric AKA Tony Ryan or whoever you are have an axe to grind. All the information was published a year ago in the Australian press. If you presented any new information the Aussie press would beat a path to your door. The Aussie press is not in a conspiracy to withhold information. Write them a letter. I don't think you are a credible source but if you are they will jump at the chance to get the true story.

Huh? First you said Tony Ryan is a 17 year old prankster and now Eric is Tony Ryan?

Seems to me you are trying to discredit posters rather than their arguments and that is the hallmark of someone who really has no real argument left.

I am still a disinterested bystander and have no dog in this fight but it seems like those who come down on the side against TGM refuse to take in any new information (or even read it) and instead rely solely on stories all stemming from one source whose information was provided or guided by people with a vested interest in discrediting TGM.

Being a published journalist does not make one infallible nor does it exempt one from the human failing of refusing to admit a mistake that would hurt their self interest. What I find odd is when people doggedly cling to a belief unquestioningly in the face of evidence to the contrary. I am not saying that Tony Ryan provided hard evidence that the story was wrong. He provided information that called the original story in question and Drummond's responses not only did not help his credibility they actually hurt his credibility.

[chooka]

Now that is interesting. Who told you Tony Ryan was a teenage prankster?. he certainly doesn't write like one. It seems to me that the first thing people do when they don't like someone's message is to attack the messenger. Tony Ryan seems to have intimate knowledge of what went on with the grey man rescue and a lot of background information on the people who gave Lindsay Murdoch the supposed information he used in his article. Let's say that he is a17year old prankster. Does it matter. His information seems credible and sadly for a 17 year old prankster (if he is) he managed to run rings around a seasoned journalist, Mr Drummond.

I think he also explains why John Curtis resigned, which again seemed reasonable to me. And I wonder whether, like so many other people here, you bothered to actually read Tony Ryan's posts because you say:

'If that is untrue I'm sure The Greyman organization would have taken legal action'.

For a start how could you take legal action against an obvious fact. John Curtis did resign following new claims...' but Tony Ryan also explains why. He also mentions in relation to Mr Drummond's article and taking legal action:

'Funny the way the uninformed think. Someone on Thai visa said ‘When you print something you expose your newspaper to libel laws’ so therefore the story of a fake rescue had to be true is what I think he was trying to say. But he doesn’t get it. John [Curtis] contacted lawyers who said he probably had a case but the Weekend Australian could spend a lot more money and could keep him in court till his money rang out and payouts for defamation often did not amount to much. John had already spent $60,000 on children and had no money left'.

As for letting Tony and Andrew work this out in some other forum. Well Mr Drummond did have the chance but chose not to answer the questions. This isn't even about them though. This is about a story which was given a lot of credibility at the time but now that new information has surfaced it puts the original story in doubt. All I am concerned with is if an injustice has been done and would like other people to discuss it on its merits. I think I have been polite about it and I actually like Mr Drummond. I hope he continues to point the finger at the corrupt but he may have gotten it wrong in this instance.

If you see no reason to be involved then don't be. Simple.

As for writing on this forum where Mr Drummond can't answer I am simply trying to provide a reasonably objective view of the new information (although I admit, to me, it has the ring of truth) since this topic has generated a lot of interest in the past both for and against and someone else started this thread by providing a link to Tony Ryan's posts. Unfortunately, people are making comments, apparently without reading Mr Ryan's posts.

I am not into conspiracy theories but I find it very strange that someone would suddenly come up with the story that Tony Ryan is a 17 year old prankster. That smacks of disinformation. So please let me know where you heard that gem of wisdom!

Eric AKA Tony Ryan or whoever you are have an axe to grind. All the information was published a year ago in the Australian press. If you presented any new information the Aussie press would beat a path to your door. The Aussie press is not in a conspiracy to withhold information. Write them a letter. I don't think you are a credible source but if you are they will jump at the chance to get the true story.

The aussie press won't beat a path to your door. I remember my ex wife was accused of sexual assault and false imprisonment when she was in the Victoria police. The media went into a total frenzy and an attack on her and the Victoria Police. The matter went to to the civil courts and she was cleared of all allegations. After the hearing and the way she and her female partner had been dragged through the mud by the media she requested to give her side to the press. The media basically told her to "F" off as the matter was finalised and didn't want her side of the story.

Total FACT............................................................

[Jessi]

Now that is interesting. Who told you Tony Ryan was a teenage prankster?. he certainly doesn't write like one. It seems to me that the first thing people do when they don't like someone's message is to attack the messenger. Tony Ryan seems to have intimate knowledge of what went on with the grey man rescue and a lot of background information on the people who gave Lindsay Murdoch the supposed information he used in his article. Let's say that he is a17year old prankster. Does it matter. His information seems credible and sadly for a 17 year old prankster (if he is) he managed to run rings around a seasoned journalist, Mr Drummond.

I think he also explains why John Curtis resigned, which again seemed reasonable to me. And I wonder whether, like so many other people here, you bothered to actually read Tony Ryan's posts because you say:

'If that is untrue I'm sure The Greyman organization would have taken legal action'.

For a start how could you take legal action against an obvious fact. John Curtis did resign following new claims...' but Tony Ryan also explains why. He also mentions in relation to Mr Drummond's article and taking legal action:

'Funny the way the uninformed think. Someone on Thai visa said ‘When you print something you expose your newspaper to libel laws’ so therefore the story of a fake rescue had to be true is what I think he was trying to say. But he doesn’t get it. John [Curtis] contacted lawyers who said he probably had a case but the Weekend Australian could spend a lot more money and could keep him in court till his money rang out and payouts for defamation often did not amount to much. John had already spent $60,000 on children and had no money left'.

As for letting Tony and Andrew work this out in some other forum. Well Mr Drummond did have the chance but chose not to answer the questions. This isn't even about them though. This is about a story which was given a lot of credibility at the time but now that new information has surfaced it puts the original story in doubt. All I am concerned with is if an injustice has been done and would like other people to discuss it on its merits. I think I have been polite about it and I actually like Mr Drummond. I hope he continues to point the finger at the corrupt but he may have gotten it wrong in this instance.

If you see no reason to be involved then don't be. Simple.

As for writing on this forum where Mr Drummond can't answer I am simply trying to provide a reasonably objective view of the new information (although I admit, to me, it has the ring of truth) since this topic has generated a lot of interest in the past both for and against and someone else started this thread by providing a link to Tony Ryan's posts. Unfortunately, people are making comments, apparently without reading Mr Ryan's posts.

I am not into conspiracy theories but I find it very strange that someone would suddenly come up with the story that Tony Ryan is a 17 year old prankster. That smacks of disinformation. So please let me know where you heard that gem of wisdom!

Eric AKA Tony Ryan or whoever you are have an axe to grind. All the information was published a year ago in the Australian press. If you presented any new information the Aussie press would beat a path to your door. The Aussie press is not in a conspiracy to withhold information. Write them a letter. I don't think you are a credible source but if you are they will jump at the chance to get the true story.

@ thailiketoo,

I have checked some of the other post made by you on TV. Yes you have been a member for 6 weeks w0w and all you have done is try to cause trouble on some of the threads. In fact you remind me of another poster that was on TV and he got banned for whatever reason (perhaps its you under another name) but some of the posters could see through him like a sheet of glass. Im calling B/S on most of what you have posted on TV.

You talk about the news papers in Australia. They are the same in the rest of the world, they are only interested in printing hyped up stories that bring the money in. They are not interested in printing the truth and that is why this topic was started to show the people of Thailand how the Police corruption can help to destroy a Registered Australian Charity that has rescued hundreds of Children from the evil Pedophiles and human traffickers. Since TGM stopped working in the Chiang Mai area very little if any rescue has been done, that to me “Speaks Volumes”

Then you speak about Tony Ryan being a 17 year old, what a crock of Shit. I have met Tony Ryan and I can tell you he is a very real person who works very hard to help children. If you were to take the time to read his post on phenpal you will see what I mean.

This topic is a very serious matter, so please go and play in some other little sand box where they might tolerate your B/S.

[Jessi]

Now that is interesting. Who told you Tony Ryan was a teenage prankster?. he certainly doesn't write like one. It seems to me that the first thing people do when they don't like someone's message is to attack the messenger. Tony Ryan seems to have intimate knowledge of what went on with the grey man rescue and a lot of background information on the people who gave Lindsay Murdoch the supposed information he used in his article. Let's say that he is a17year old prankster. Does it matter. His information seems credible and sadly for a 17 year old prankster (if he is) he managed to run rings around a seasoned journalist, Mr Drummond.

I think he also explains why John Curtis resigned, which again seemed reasonable to me. And I wonder whether, like so many other people here, you bothered to actually read Tony Ryan's posts because you say:

'If that is untrue I'm sure The Greyman organization would have taken legal action'.

For a start how could you take legal action against an obvious fact. John Curtis did resign following new claims...' but Tony Ryan also explains why. He also mentions in relation to Mr Drummond's article and taking legal action:

'Funny the way the uninformed think. Someone on Thai visa said ‘When you print something you expose your newspaper to libel laws’ so therefore the story of a fake rescue had to be true is what I think he was trying to say. But he doesn’t get it. John [Curtis] contacted lawyers who said he probably had a case but the Weekend Australian could spend a lot more money and could keep him in court till his money rang out and payouts for defamation often did not amount to much. John had already spent $60,000 on children and had no money left'.

As for letting Tony and Andrew work this out in some other forum. Well Mr Drummond did have the chance but chose not to answer the questions. This isn't even about them though. This is about a story which was given a lot of credibility at the time but now that new information has surfaced it puts the original story in doubt. All I am concerned with is if an injustice has been done and would like other people to discuss it on its merits. I think I have been polite about it and I actually like Mr Drummond. I hope he continues to point the finger at the corrupt but he may have gotten it wrong in this instance.

If you see no reason to be involved then don't be. Simple.

As for writing on this forum where Mr Drummond can't answer I am simply trying to provide a reasonably objective view of the new information (although I admit, to me, it has the ring of truth) since this topic has generated a lot of interest in the past both for and against and someone else started this thread by providing a link to Tony Ryan's posts. Unfortunately, people are making comments, apparently without reading Mr Ryan's posts.

I am not into conspiracy theories but I find it very strange that someone would suddenly come up with the story that Tony Ryan is a 17 year old prankster. That smacks of disinformation. So please let me know where you heard that gem of wisdom!

Eric AKA Tony Ryan or whoever you are have an axe to grind. All the information was published a year ago in the Australian press. If you presented any new information the Aussie press would beat a path to your door. The Aussie press is not in a conspiracy to withhold information. Write them a letter. I don't think you are a credible source but if you are they will jump at the chance to get the true story.

The aussie press won't beat a path to your door. I remember my ex wife was accused of sexual assault and false imprisonment when she was in the Victoria police. The media went into a total frenzy and an attack on her and the Victoria Police. The matter went to to the civil courts and she was cleared of all allegations. After the hearing and the way she and her female partner had been dragged through the mud by the media she requested to give her side to the press. The media basically told her to "F" off as the matter was finalised and didn't want her side of the story.

Total FACT............................................................

Yes chooka and where do the people go to get their credability back? after their lives have been destroyed by the media.

[ericthegoalie]

Eric AKA Tony Ryan or whoever you are have an axe to grind. All the information was published a year ago in the Australian press. If you presented any new information the Aussie press would beat a path to your door. The Aussie press is not in a conspiracy to withhold information. Write them a letter. I don't think you are a credible source but if you are they will jump at the chance to get the true story.

You know thailiketoo I think I have been very polite and am only interested in the truth. All I really asked you was where did you get this information that Tony Ryan was a 17 year old prankster and what you come back with is this comment about me being Tony Ryan.

This is VERY, VERY reminiscent of the reaction of Mr Drummond when Tony Ryan showed how Mr Drummond continued to get details wrong and quoted his own emails between him and John Curtis. In response Mr Drummond suggested that Tony Ryan was John Curtis

Mr Drummond's comment was 'You’re bitter and twisted John Curtis. And you have shown your colours...' and in an earlier post he says 'you’ve not teamed up with a guy called Drew Noyes have you?'

It seems when people don't like what they are reading they make outlandish accusations rather than answer the questions.

In this case all I asked was where you heard about Tony Ryan being a 17 year old prankster

Your reaction to the question and your views on the media seriously cause me to ask this question

ARE YOU ANDREW DRUMMOND?

If so, I like your work but Tony Ryan has brought up some serious questions in relation to one article you wrote. It should be looked at.

[thailiketoo]

Now that is interesting. Who told you Tony Ryan was a teenage prankster?. he certainly doesn't write like one. It seems to me that the first thing people do when they don't like someone's message is to attack the messenger. Tony Ryan seems to have intimate knowledge of what went on with the grey man rescue and a lot of background information on the people who gave Lindsay Murdoch the supposed information he used in his article. Let's say that he is a17year old prankster. Does it matter. His information seems credible and sadly for a 17 year old prankster (if he is) he managed to run rings around a seasoned journalist, Mr Drummond.

I think he also explains why John Curtis resigned, which again seemed reasonable to me. And I wonder whether, like so many other people here, you bothered to actually read Tony Ryan's posts because you say:

'If that is untrue I'm sure The Greyman organization would have taken legal action'.

For a start how could you take legal action against an obvious fact. John Curtis did resign following new claims...' but Tony Ryan also explains why. He also mentions in relation to Mr Drummond's article and taking legal action:

'Funny the way the uninformed think. Someone on Thai visa said ‘When you print something you expose your newspaper to libel laws’ so therefore the story of a fake rescue had to be true is what I think he was trying to say. But he doesn’t get it. John [Curtis] contacted lawyers who said he probably had a case but the Weekend Australian could spend a lot more money and could keep him in court till his money rang out and payouts for defamation often did not amount to much. John had already spent $60,000 on children and had no money left'.

As for letting Tony and Andrew work this out in some other forum. Well Mr Drummond did have the chance but chose not to answer the questions. This isn't even about them though. This is about a story which was given a lot of credibility at the time but now that new information has surfaced it puts the original story in doubt. All I am concerned with is if an injustice has been done and would like other people to discuss it on its merits. I think I have been polite about it and I actually like Mr Drummond. I hope he continues to point the finger at the corrupt but he may have gotten it wrong in this instance.

If you see no reason to be involved then don't be. Simple.

As for writing on this forum where Mr Drummond can't answer I am simply trying to provide a reasonably objective view of the new information (although I admit, to me, it has the ring of truth) since this topic has generated a lot of interest in the past both for and against and someone else started this thread by providing a link to Tony Ryan's posts. Unfortunately, people are making comments, apparently without reading Mr Ryan's posts.

I am not into conspiracy theories but I find it very strange that someone would suddenly come up with the story that Tony Ryan is a 17 year old prankster. That smacks of disinformation. So please let me know where you heard that gem of wisdom!

Eric AKA Tony Ryan or whoever you are have an axe to grind. All the information was published a year ago in the Australian press. If you presented any new information the Aussie press would beat a path to your door. The Aussie press is not in a conspiracy to withhold information. Write them a letter. I don't think you are a credible source but if you are they will jump at the chance to get the true story.

The aussie press won't beat a path to your door. I remember my ex wife was accused of sexual assault and false imprisonment when she was in the Victoria police. The media went into a total frenzy and an attack on her and the Victoria Police. The matter went to to the civil courts and she was cleared of all allegations. After the hearing and the way she and her female partner had been dragged through the mud by the media she requested to give her side to the press. The media basically told her to "F" off as the matter was finalised and didn't want her side of the story.

Total FACT............................................................

Yes chooka and where do the people go to get their credability back? after their lives have been destroyed by the media.

Dr Susan Alberti: high-profile $220,000 win by the Westerm Bulldogs AFL club director in 2009 against Channel 9 for comments made by Sam Newman and Garry Lyon on The Footy Show

Col Allan: the former Daily Telegraph editor settled "to my satisfaction" a defamation case against Austereo's Andrew Denton who suggested a crime story was only on the front page because the accused was Korean.

Chris Anderson: the former Optus CEO and former journalist sued The Australian's then business columnist Mark Westfield in the ACT Supreme Court in 1999. The Oz settled with a grovelling apology.

Noel Bishop: this NSW teacher got the Education Department to sue some of his students in 1998 for a three minute review that he claimed implied he had an extracurricular affair.

Reporters without borders ranked Australian media above both the USA and UK. If they mess up you go to court like the above people.

[thailiketoo]

Eric AKA Tony Ryan or whoever you are have an axe to grind. All the information was published a year ago in the Australian press. If you presented any new information the Aussie press would beat a path to your door. The Aussie press is not in a conspiracy to withhold information. Write them a letter. I don't think you are a credible source but if you are they will jump at the chance to get the true story.

You know thailiketoo I think I have been very polite and am only interested in the truth. All I really asked you was where did you get this information that Tony Ryan was a 17 year old prankster and what you come back with is this comment about me being Tony Ryan.

This is VERY, VERY reminiscent of the reaction of Mr Drummond when Tony Ryan showed how Mr Drummond continued to get details wrong and quoted his own emails between him and John Curtis. In response Mr Drummond suggested that Tony Ryan was John Curtis

Mr Drummond's comment was 'You’re bitter and twisted John Curtis. And you have shown your colours...' and in an earlier post he says 'you’ve not teamed up with a guy called Drew Noyes have you?'

It seems when people don't like what they are reading they make outlandish accusations rather than answer the questions.

In this case all I asked was where you heard about Tony Ryan being a 17 year old prankster

Your reaction to the question and your views on the media seriously cause me to ask this question

ARE YOU ANDREW DRUMMOND?

If so, I like your work but Tony Ryan has brought up some serious questions in relation to one article you wrote. It should be looked at.

I don't have a clue who Tony Ryan is. He may be 17 or 70. He may be tinker bell in his spare time. I don't really know. Do you? I think I read he was a prankster but I'm not sure. I would make no case as to who he is because I don't know. As far as I know he is an anonymous internet poster and that is all I know for sure. I don't know Drummond. I don't much care for his writing. His internet site seems confused and difficult to navigate. All I know about the Grey Man is what I read in Australian Media.

IMHO Thai cops should take care of Thailand, American cops take of America and Australian cops Australia. I think there is enough crime in Australia and America to keep the cops and wannabe cops busy without going abroad. No I don't think Australia should give America a run for world's cop this year.

Cooperation is totally different. If the Australian government and Thai government and American government want to get together good for them. Ask America and Australia if they want to spend their tax dollars on Thailand. Vigilante groups? Not much for them operating internationally.

Edited November 6, 2013 by thailiketoo

[ericthegoalie]

These rants are just confusing the issue, as usual. For every successful legal challenge against the media there will be an unsuccessful one and you have to have the money to take them to court in the first place.

I am not sure why you are so agitated about this. Is it because it conflicts with some belief that people should only concentrate on the issues in their country? Thailand is failing miserably on child trafficking despite the money that the Americans are pumping into it. Maybe they do need some outside help.

At least you have answered my question about where you heard Tony Ryan is a 17 year old prankster. You don't know. Fine. You think you read he was a prankster and you were willing to believe it because you read it. Mr Drummond also wrote an article that I assume you read and believed it because you read it as did many other people.

Tony Ryan may not have proved the story was untrue but he has brought up enough questions to suggest the story is worth a second look.

[ericthegoalie]

BTW thanks for the Impossible dream clip. I enjoyed it but I probably took something different away from it than you did....'And the world may be better for this....'

If Tony Ryan's figures are correct then there are a few hundred kids whose lives are better because of Grey Man

[thailiketoo]

The U.S. Department of State recommends that the Australian government should devote more attention and resources to addressing allegations of labor trafficking. … it is our experience that the level of support is variable and can be inadequate to meet the needs of victims leaving them vulnerable to violence, exploitation and endangerment of their ability to cooperate with law enforcement.

According to Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women. http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

I, as an anonymous internet poster want to know why The Grey Man is not doing something about Australian sex trafficking.

He has a unique advantage in that he, speaks the language and he could save a lot of money on transportation.

Living in Thailand I know a lot of operatives of NSA, CIA, FBI, SAS, MI5,6,7 the French Foreign legion ,Mossad and they all agree that to provide intel the first qualification is speaking the language of the country that one is operating in.

Fair is fair if Tony Ryan an anonymous poster can demand an answer so can I.

Edited November 6, 2013 by thailiketoo

[chooka]

The U.S. Department of State recommends that the Australian government should devote more attention and resources to addressing allegations of labor trafficking. … it is our experience that the level of support is variable and can be inadequate to meet the needs of victims leaving them vulnerable to violence, exploitation and endangerment of their ability to cooperate with law enforcement.

According to Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women. http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

I, as an anonymous internet poster want to know why The Grey Man is not doing something about Australian sex trafficking.

He has a unique advantage in that he, speaks the language and he could save a lot of money on transportation.

Living in Thailand I know a lot of operatives of NSA, CIA, FBI, SAS, MI5,6,7 the French Foreign legion ,Mossad and they all agree that to provide intel the first qualification is speaking the language of the country that one is operating in.

Fair is fair if Tony Ryan an anonymous poster can demand an answer so can I.

And who on gods earth are the U.S to make recommendations to Australia. Tell those @#@%# to bugger of and get their own house in order. This is why you get so much anti U.S sentiment. They constantly interfere in every other country when their toilet is overflowing. At least in Australia we can take a piss without standing in <deleted>. Hey America look at Australia for a model if you want out of the toilet.

[thailiketoo]

The U.S. Department of State recommends that the Australian government should devote more attention and resources to addressing allegations of labor trafficking. … it is our experience that the level of support is variable and can be inadequate to meet the needs of victims leaving them vulnerable to violence, exploitation and endangerment of their ability to cooperate with law enforcement.

According to Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women. http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

I, as an anonymous internet poster want to know why The Grey Man is not doing something about Australian sex trafficking.

He has a unique advantage in that he, speaks the language and he could save a lot of money on transportation.

Living in Thailand I know a lot of operatives of NSA, CIA, FBI, SAS, MI5,6,7 the French Foreign legion ,Mossad and they all agree that to provide intel the first qualification is speaking the language of the country that one is operating in.

Fair is fair if Tony Ryan an anonymous poster can demand an answer so can I.

And who on gods earth are the U.S to make recommendations to Australia. Tell those @#@%# to bugger of and get their own house in order. This is why you get so much anti U.S sentiment. They constantly interfere in every other country when their toilet is overflowing. At least in Australia we can take a piss without standing in <deleted>. Hey America look at Australia for a model if you want out of the toilet.

I agree with you 100% in fact in post #84 I wrote, "IMHO Thai cops should take care of Thailand, American cops take of America and Australian cops Australia. I think there is enough crime in Australia and America to keep the cops and wannabe cops busy without going abroad. No I don't think Australia should give America a run for world's cop this year."

But one good thing came out of my post and your reply. Now you know how the Thais felt about The Grey Man coming to Thailand.

BTW Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, wrote, "Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women." http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

Edited November 6, 2013 by thailiketoo

[Showbags]

The U.S. Department of State recommends that the Australian government should devote more attention and resources to addressing allegations of labor trafficking. … it is our experience that the level of support is variable and can be inadequate to meet the needs of victims leaving them vulnerable to violence, exploitation and endangerment of their ability to cooperate with law enforcement.

According to Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women. http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

I, as an anonymous internet poster want to know why The Grey Man is not doing something about Australian sex trafficking.

He has a unique advantage in that he, speaks the language and he could save a lot of money on transportation.

Living in Thailand I know a lot of operatives of NSA, CIA, FBI, SAS, MI5,6,7 the French Foreign legion ,Mossad and they all agree that to provide intel the first qualification is speaking the language of the country that one is operating in.

Fair is fair if Tony Ryan an anonymous poster can demand an answer so can I.

And who on gods earth are the U.S to make recommendations to Australia. Tell those @#@%# to bugger of and get their own house in order. This is why you get so much anti U.S sentiment. They constantly interfere in every other country when their toilet is overflowing. At least in Australia we can take a piss without standing in <deleted>. Hey America look at Australia for a model if you want out of the toilet.

I agree with you 100% in fact in post #84 I wrote, "IMHO Thai cops should take care of Thailand, American cops take of America and Australian cops Australia. I think there is enough crime in Australia and America to keep the cops and wannabe cops busy without going abroad. No I don't think Australia should give America a run for world's cop this year."

But one good thing came out of my post and your reply. Now you know how the Thais felt about The Grey Man coming to Thailand.

BTW Project Reach, an Australia-based nongovernmental organization, wrote, "Australia's sex slavery laws are failing and police are not doing enough to free enslaved women." http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/10

Bull <deleted>, they don't want Aussies or anyone else here disturbing and sticking their noses into thier business...literally.

[Showbags]

I find 1000 woman currently held as sex slaves in Australia quite hard to believe.

While it does and is happening, I do not believe it to that level.

The problem is the official version of trafficking and being a slave is often quite different from the real version and how events unfold.