Patong mayor’s resort targeted for land encroachment

[Tboy928]

We cannot say whether or not the hotel has encroached onto public land since the documents we have are not clear enough, Minister Somsak said.

Just displays the farce of the DSI. Poor investigative planning. All show. No real intent to enforce any encroachment. Complete joke.

This major and his son is running Patong as their own mafia club, Police and all tings, Tuk tuck mafia is run by the son, Son also own half the Hollywood club .. but nothing will change exept money and the Goverment people will be sendt to another post ,if they not exept the pay off. Major also building some resort up in the Hill behind Nanai road ..

[Chao Lao Beach]

Hi Living Kata, As a general comment what you say is true here http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/674706-patong-mayors-resort-targeted-for-land-encroachment/#entry6926196

but it can be used, but I highly doubt as general use in Thailand for land markers.

It is commonly used on airports for surveying as the primary instrument for many things, however there are several surveyed points where unit can be calibrated for displaced error and on site (the airport) a station sending out a signal similar to a satellite for precise calibration that can be utilized for this purpose. It has a range of at least several kilometers.

My understanding is that in Thailand, the chaonte markers are accurate to about 1 foot and it is defiantly not GS related, although I do see the land office using GPS now, I woul dbe interested what a serveyor who really now his stuff has to say about this as well as Living Kata.

[maxisrael]

But the sea has changed. The [2004 Asian] Tsunami happened.

And don't you forget the continental drift too.

Right wath Ice Age and you know

[Tboy928]

To you journalists in Phuket: Go to the land office and get copies of the title deeds. earn your pay! There's no ambiguity in a title deed.

"There's no ambiguity in a title deed." - how do you tell the difference between a real deed, a forged deed, a fake deed, or a paid for title deed?

what does it cost get right information in land office for copy of a deed ,if bring it there and ask ?

[BestBitterPhuket]

Don't care about investigations, don't care about arrests, but do care about REAL convictions and punishment. Not a 5,000bht fine.

[NanLaew]

To you journalists in Phuket: Go to the land office and get copies of the title deeds. earn your pay! There's no ambiguity in a title deed.

"There's no ambiguity in a title deed." - how do you tell the difference between a real deed, a forged deed, a fake deed, or a paid for title deed?

I know! I know!... The person with the most money has the 'real' deed.

[Emdog]

Guess you could say they've drawn a "line in the sand" on this one!

[andres]

Where are the chanote markers?

All land papers and documents I've ever seen are clear enough to decipher legalities and location markers.

How do you know the land even has a Chanote title ? We have bought a number of pieces of land and none of them had these markers (tiny little concrete post with a reference number on the top). We always had to pay the local land office to send out surveyors to check the land title paper. And I know plenty of cases where the post was moved, a neighbour tried this trick on one of our borders.

If you bought land in Thailand, you also know that the Land Office use GPS co-ordinates to mark your borders

[SjaakNL2013]

Buying land is a mess here in Thailand.We have several plots of land and always direct after buy it I let the surveyors check the real dimensions. Especial inrural areas and where government have land, national parks, borders are not clear and easy a start from discussions.

Normal practice, buy land, surveyors and direct steel pipes in the ground to be sure about the borders.

[hellodolly]

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

Then why not use DGPS which is widely available and has errors topped at 10cm which can be reduced to 3cm using one of the paid systems. DGPS also takes into account height above sea level. You would think someone with 30 years experience with commercial Navigation and oil well positioning would know that.

You would think that some one who knows that would know it wasn't around 30 years ago. What ever possessed you to think that 30 years ago Puckett was using state of the art equipment.

Also how old and accurate was the information they had to work with originally. As I said in my earlier post I have had a lot of experience with property lines drawn up years ago and being inaccurate. Now you want to use 2013 equipment to verify 30 year old work done with equipment that probably belonged in a museum. Thailand would be in one hell of a mess if they tried that with every piece of property in Thailand. Also consider how accurate was the data they had in those days.

Thailand is not exactly known for being on the ball they lack in many ways and are waiting for the ways and means to come along so they can copy them.

As I said I am not defending the man I am just pointing out the realities of the difference in time and equipment.

On the other hand it might be a good idea in Bangkok and every bit of property that in any way encroaches on other property be torn down and then they would be abler to stop worrying about the flood so much. Maybe even build a new city like Burma did.

I know DGPS wasn't widely available 30 years ago . But it is now, and it can be used to cross reference the coordinates that are on the original Chanote and the actual coordinates of land occupied today.

You assume they had accurate measurements in those days. As I say I have had a lot of experience with working off of old maps and plans. That was in Canada. I just don't think Thailand was better than Canada at these type things.

Edit

The whole thing is silly any how. We don't know the amount of land they are talking about. The only hint I saw of it was they were talking about a wall protecting the land from the sea.

With out further information I would have to say sounds like a witch hunt to me.

Edited October 15, 2013 by hellodolly

[NamKangMan]

Buying land is a mess here in Thailand.We have several plots of land and always direct after buy it I let the surveyors check the real dimensions. Especial inrural areas and where government have land, national parks, borders are not clear and easy a start from discussions.

Normal practice, buy land, surveyors and direct steel pipes in the ground to be sure about the borders.

So, not only do you buy land you can never own, you also have surveyors give you the exact dimensions of the land you can never own.

[oldsailor35]

There ya go ! i knew he would find a way out! A friend (Falang) of mine tried to concrete over some stones on a path leading to his house,just a couple of meters and the "SxxxT hit the fan" but there he isnt in a powerful position. Lets face it, Thai's in power are just corrupt to the core.

[osiboy]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

Navcom's Starfire system claims acccuracy of better than 5cm. If this is true, accuracy levels such as this could resolve most territorial disputes. What is the accuracy of current and historic methods for positioning of boundary markers - is it better than 5cm ?

you guys seem to be overlooking a critical point , the mayor took his measurements when the tide was out , he may be thief but he ain't stupid !

[stevenl]

Buying land is a mess here in Thailand.We have several plots of land and always direct after buy it I let the surveyors check the real dimensions. Especial inrural areas and where government have land, national parks, borders are not clear and easy a start from discussions.

 

Normal practice, buy land, surveyors and direct steel pipes in the ground to be sure about the borders.

 

So, not only do you buy land you can never own, you also have surveyors give you the exact dimensions of the land you can never own.

Here we go again.

Sent from my D90W using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[stevenl]

 

 

 

 

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

 

Then why not use DGPS which is widely available and has errors topped at 10cm which can be reduced to 3cm using one of the paid systems. DGPS also takes into account height above sea level. You would think someone with 30 years experience with commercial Navigation and oil well positioning would know that. 

 

 

You would think that some one who knows that would know it wasn't around 30 years ago. What ever possessed you to think that 30 years ago Puckett was using state of the art equipment.

 

Also how old and accurate was the information they had to work with originally. As I said in my earlier post I have had a lot of experience with property lines drawn up years ago and being inaccurate. Now you want to use 2013 equipment to verify 30 year old work done with equipment that probably belonged in a museum. Thailand would be in one hell of a mess if they tried that with every piece of property in Thailand. Also consider how accurate was the data they had in those days.

 

Thailand is not exactly known for being on the ball they lack in many ways and are waiting for the ways and means to come along so they can copy them.

 

As I said I am not defending the man I am just pointing out the realities of the difference in time and equipment.

 

On the other hand it might be a good idea in Bangkok and every bit of property that in any way encroaches on other property be torn down and then they would be abler to stop worrying about the flood so much. Maybe even build a new city like Burma did.

 

 

I know DGPS wasn't widely available 30 years ago  . But it is now, and it can be used to cross reference the coordinates that are on the original Chanote and the actual coordinates of land occupied today. 

 

 

You assume they had accurate measurements in those days. As I say I have had a lot of experience with working off of old maps and plans. That was in Canada. I just don't think Thailand was better than Canada at these type things.

 

Edit

 

The whole thing is silly any how. We don't know the amount of land they are talking about. The only hint I saw of it was they were talking about a wall protecting the land from the sea.

 

With out further information I would have to say sounds like a witch hunt to me.

 

Investigating a complaint I would call doing their duty, not a witch hunt.

Sent from my D90W using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Bkungbank]

Jung Ceylon to Patong beach less then 300 Meters charging 300 Thb about USD 10 for tuk-tuk. That's real mafia.

[steelepulse]

>>you guys seem to be overlooking a critical point , the mayor took his measurements when the tide was out , he may be thief but he ain't stupid !

Nothing ( not even a "protective wall" that serves as seating for customers) is to be built on the first 20 metres from median high tide line. Yes there's global warming ( maybe accounting for a few cm rise in the oceans since 1985) and the sand does shift a little over time, but Prab's assertions that the sand has moved and before the hotel was legal is complete BS. I'd still like to know where the corner markers of said property are and how far over this the resort has breached the property line.

[inkorat]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

The Land Departments' GPS is very accurate with the Japanese installed ground stations and it is closer to plus or minus 1 cm . I think they have 260 ground based stations that they use to correct the GPS signal.

They know exactly where the markers are, but need to be careful on whose toes they step on..

[Time Traveller]

This can't be true, according to the Thai Land Dept all of phuket is owned by foreigners.

[JulesMad]

“We cannot say whether or not the hotel has encroached onto public land since the documents we have are not clear enough,” Minister Somsak said.

What is the use of these documents if they are not clear enough?!?

Phuket is becoming a bigger joke day by day

[MK1]

In all fairness, all business on the West side of Thawewong road (Beach road of Patong) should all be removed and given back to the public as park land consistent with the clear zone ideology of Surin beach and others.

Was this not the Patong municipality original proposed concept of a Patong Beach clear zone? http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket_news/2013/Phuket-official-moves-to-create-Patong-Beach-clear-zone-21780.html

Obviously the original proposed concept was discretionary and had limits because of the impact it would have on those also with a vested interest on their own businesses, further up the beach, just short of the original proposed beach clear zone, perhaps knowingly provoked because of reasons surrounding what we see happening now.

[Lite Beer]

Phuket beach encroachment: Keesin family will play by rules
Phuket Gazette -

PHUKET: Leading Patong figure Preechavude ‘Prab’ Keesin responded yesterday to the inspection that singled out his family’s resort by expressing his willingness to take down any structures found to be encroaching on the beach.

Mr Prab, whose father is Patong Mayor Pian Keesin, told the press fears of erosion had led to sea walls being built on the beach in front of the resort.

The resort in question, Patong Bay Garden Resort, was built in 1985 and taken over by the Keesin family in 2006, Mr Prab said.

“I noticed the beach in front of the hotel was being eroded by waves, and getting shorter and shorter every year.

“That’s why the hotel set up the sand bag and stick wall along the beach, to try to prevent erosion. We were afraid that without that, the waves would eventually erode the hotel structure itself,” he said.

“If the investigation finds that the walls we made encroach on the beach area, we will remove them,” he said.

Mr Prab invited the officials who visited the resort on Monday, (story here) Tourism and Sports Minister Somsak Pureesrisak and Director-general Tarit Pengdith of the Department of Special Investigation (DSI), to examine the resort at any time, and also offered to show them his land documents.

When asked why he was not present when officers went to the resort on Monday, Mr Prab said that he intentionally chose not to appear.

“I felt the officials were being disrespectful toward me,” he said. “Why did they have to come with so many Phuket and Bangkok media? It was as though they had proven me guilty already.”

He also questioned why his family’s resort had been the only one inspected that day.

“Why did they only inspect our hotel when actually there are many other hotels in Patong that have done the same thing,” he mused, adding that he was happy to help officers “as long as they do not have any hidden agendas”.

Mr Prab, who runs the Patong Taxi Federation, also took the opportunity to discuss taxis.

“I’ve talked with Minister Somsak about the taxis in front of Jungceylon. I explained to him that I have organized the taxi queue and made the taxis legal according to the law. If he wants to examine them, I am happy to help,” he explained.

Mr Prab concluded by again denying that he is a mafia figure, arguing that he does not deserve to be on the list of Phuket mafia figures issued by the DSI on August 9.

“I believe I behave well,” he said. “I participate in Patong and general Phuket community activities. If they say I am mafia simply because I know a lot of people, then the whole thing is really just wrong,” he said.

“I do know who is who in Patong and who has done bad things, but I will never name names. I am not a mafia member, I am just an ordinary person. So I will live my life that way,” Mr Prab said.

Source: http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket_news/2013/Phuket-beach-encroachment-Keesin-family-will-play-by-rules-22515.html

-- Phuket Gazette 2013-10-16

[KarenBravo]

Who knows for sure if it's chanote, nor sor sam, or another type of title that allows a commercial enterprise to be run on the beach for over 25 years? Surely any properly titled land has boundary marks that can be cross referenced via GPS. If land title is tor bor, sor por kor or whatever number, there should be no hotel allowed. The wild west days of moving markers and being allowed to get away with it should be out the window with modern technology.

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

You are way behind. Using constant corrections from satellites, or a selection of land-based correction stations. Accuracy is now 1 cm for every 1000 Kms. It's done by calculating the phase variance of the GPS signal.

[steelepulse]

>>“Why did they only inspect our hotel when actually there are many other hotels in Patong that have done the same thing,”

Sounds like an admission of guilt along with, " but they did it too".

[LivinginKata]

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

You are way behind. Using constant corrections from satellites, or a selection of land-based correction stations. Accuracy is now 1 cm for every 1000 Kms. It's done by calculating the phase variance of the GPS signal.

Yes, I would agree I have been out of the positioning business for a loooong time. But I did state that accuracy not so good in stand alone mode. As in no land-based correction from a well documented survey point. I am impressed at that 1cm claimed accuracy over 1,000 km, I would not expect that from such a long way from a correction station. The correction is only valid at that correction point and accuracy falls off with distance removed from that point.

[Thai at Heart]

Thai legal logic for a defence.

These people are scumbags aren't they. Boo hoo. Why did they come with so many people to inspect me? Makes me look bad. Don't you know who I am? All they have to do is show me some respect, and i am sure we can sort it out.

[KarenBravo]

GPS is not that precise for boundary marks, something like a + or - 15m accuracy in stand alone mode. Needs to be tied into a reference point and corrected for + or - 1m accuracy. And for height above sealevel , it's only a 'suggested' height. I have used GPS for commercial navigation and oil well positioning for near 30 years and I know what I am talking about. Good enough for locating a position but not good enough for land boundaries.

You are way behind. Using constant corrections from satellites, or a selection of land-based correction stations. Accuracy is now 1 cm for every 1000 Kms. It's done by calculating the phase variance of the GPS signal.

Yes, I would agree I have been out of the positioning business for a loooong time. But I did state that accuracy not so good in stand alone mode. As in no land-based correction from a well documented survey point. I am impressed at that 1cm claimed accuracy over 1,000 km, I would not expect that from such a long way from a correction station. The correction is only valid at that correction point and accuracy falls off with distance removed from that point.

Offshore business now uses two separate sets of corrections, each made up of at least ten earth-stations. That's how they now get such astounding accuracy.

Agree with you on stand-alone GPS, though, I've generally heard within 10 metres bandied around.

[LivinginKata]

Offshore business now uses two separate sets of corrections, each made up of at least ten earth-stations. That's how they now get such astounding accuracy.

Agree with you on stand-alone GPS, though, I've generally heard within 10 metres bandied around.

And do you really think that the Kathu land office has that sort of sophisticated GPS receiver ? As far as I know they only have that stand along hand held receiver with no correction.

[KarenBravo]

Offshore business now uses two separate sets of corrections, each made up of at least ten earth-stations. That's how they now get such astounding accuracy.

Agree with you on stand-alone GPS, though, I've generally heard within 10 metres bandied around.

And do you really think that the Kathu land office has that sort of sophisticated GPS receiver ? As far as I know they only have that stand along hand held receiver with no correction.

I believe you.

After all..........you're the one "who knows what he's talking about", eh?

[hellodolly]

Phuket beach encroachment: Keesin family will play by rules

Phuket Gazette -

PHUKET: Leading Patong figure Preechavude ‘Prab’ Keesin responded yesterday to the inspection that singled out his family’s resort by expressing his willingness to take down any structures found to be encroaching on the beach.

Mr Prab, whose father is Patong Mayor Pian Keesin, told the press fears of erosion had led to sea walls being built on the beach in front of the resort.

The resort in question, Patong Bay Garden Resort, was built in 1985 and taken over by the Keesin family in 2006, Mr Prab said.

“I noticed the beach in front of the hotel was being eroded by waves, and getting shorter and shorter every year.

“That’s why the hotel set up the sand bag and stick wall along the beach, to try to prevent erosion. We were afraid that without that, the waves would eventually erode the hotel structure itself,” he said.

“If the investigation finds that the walls we made encroach on the beach area, we will remove them,” he said.

Mr Prab invited the officials who visited the resort on Monday, (story here) Tourism and Sports Minister Somsak Pureesrisak and Director-general Tarit Pengdith of the Department of Special Investigation (DSI), to examine the resort at any time, and also offered to show them his land documents.

When asked why he was not present when officers went to the resort on Monday, Mr Prab said that he intentionally chose not to appear.

“I felt the officials were being disrespectful toward me,” he said. “Why did they have to come with so many Phuket and Bangkok media? It was as though they had proven me guilty already.”

He also questioned why his family’s resort had been the only one inspected that day.

“Why did they only inspect our hotel when actually there are many other hotels in Patong that have done the same thing,” he mused, adding that he was happy to help officers “as long as they do not have any hidden agendas”.

Mr Prab, who runs the Patong Taxi Federation, also took the opportunity to discuss taxis.

“I’ve talked with Minister Somsak about the taxis in front of Jungceylon. I explained to him that I have organized the taxi queue and made the taxis legal according to the law. If he wants to examine them, I am happy to help,” he explained.

Mr Prab concluded by again denying that he is a mafia figure, arguing that he does not deserve to be on the list of Phuket mafia figures issued by the DSI on August 9.

“I believe I behave well,” he said. “I participate in Patong and general Phuket community activities. If they say I am mafia simply because I know a lot of people, then the whole thing is really just wrong,” he said.

“I do know who is who in Patong and who has done bad things, but I will never name names. I am not a mafia member, I am just an ordinary person. So I will live my life that way,” Mr Prab said.

Source: http://www.phuketgazette.net/phuket_news/2013/Phuket-beach-encroachment-Keesin-family-will-play-by-rules-22515.html

-- Phuket Gazette 2013-10-16

Now it seems to make more sense. They were using probably 80 year old records in 1985 with what we would call museum pieces today and most people are thinking that the modern equipment can fix the mistakes made almost 100 years ago and used darn near 30 years ago with modern technology.

Then it turns out to be only a wall made of sandbags and bamboo to protect from erosion.They even brought the press along with them. If the owner had been there so what. All the legal papers would be in city halls archives. They should have had them with them. They67 just wanted the owner there to make themselves look like they were doing some thing.

Witch Hunt

Actually a failed one the owner says if the wall is not on his property he will tear it down.