US Senate votes to raise debt cap, reopen government

[NeverSure]

Interesting article.

-----

Poll: Amid shutdown, Republican falls further behind in race for Va. governor

. . .

Many say the shutdown will have an impact on their vote -- 38 percent of registered voters said it would have a major impact on it; 21 percent said it would have a minor one. Among respondents who said it has had a major impact on their vote, McAuliffe is winning them 55-27 percent. Among those who say it is a minor issue, McAuliffe also leads, 52-33 percent.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/17/21012601-poll-amid-shutdown-republican-falls-further-behind-in-race-for-va-governor?lite

This is a pretty weak example to try to prove anything, frankly. First, it's by NBC which is well known to be very liberal and Democrat supportive.

Second, Virginia is and has been a blue state that votes for Democrats anyway. It is just loaded with government employees, a major Naval installation, much military and other government installations and contractors, and in general lives off federal tax dollars.

Additionally, it's right across the river from Washington DC, and many federal employees who work in DC live in VA as a suburb for DC. A huge majority of these people vote for Democrats to secure the spending and their job security and benefits.

The Democrat would win in Va. no matter what, so I doubt this is really applicable or representative.

[NeverSure]

Also realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.................".

But you can't lay all the blame on someone for not being able to come up with a successful answer to dilemmas caused by others, in this case the Bush the Younger admisitration. It was G.W. Bush and his deluded neocons that led the US into a needless, but more to the point, unfunded war. It was GW who cut tyaxes to tyhe wealthy just as they were grabbing the lion's share on the GDP. You can blame Obama for many failings, you can criticize his implementaion of the Republican inspired ACA, but the root cause of the current US fiscal problems arises from unfunded wars and tax reductions to the group that has the capital in the first place.

Obama has doubled the number of troops in Afghanistan and has himself spent far more money there than Bush did. The war goes on. So do the deaths and the spending.

Baloo22 is right. The buck stops here because Obama has been in office long enough to reverse all of Bush's doings.

Remember please. During the first two years of Obama's presidency, he had a majority in both the House and the Senate, and the Democrats ruled the country. That's when they passed Obamacare and escalated the war in Afghanistan.

With that much control, they could have reversed any Bush tax cuts, stuck it to the rich, and so on. But members of congress and Obama himself ARE the rich.

It's Obama's doing now. It's the Democrats' doing now. It's all on the Democrats now. At the least they had two years when they could have done anything they wanted, and so they did.

[notmyself]

*Deleted post edited out*

I agree, facts have a use by date. Another couple of years and it will be a fact that Bush was never even president of the US.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Scott

[Jingthing]

Now you are even saying "Republican inspired ACA" ??? It gets nuttier and nuttier!!!

...

Of course they did. It was directly modeled after Romney's Massachusett's plan. It was considered a conservative idea, people taking responsibility for insurance rather than single payer, until Obama accepted it. Then it was demonized by the wacko Obama haters. Of course it's a pretty crappy idea that those republicans had. Single payer is STILL the only real answer to full access and cost controls.

[F430murci]

Now you are even saying "Republican inspired ACA" ??? It gets nuttier and nuttier!!!

...

Of course they did. It was directly modeled after Romney's Massachusett's plan. It was considered a conservative idea, people taking responsibility for insurance rather than single payer, until Obama accepted it. Then it was demonized by the wacko Obama haters. Of course it's a pretty crappy idea that those republicans had. Single payer is STILL the only real answer to full access and cost controls.

The problem is very little cost control in the right places at this time because we are constantly subsidizing uninsured that cannot be denied care. Do you realize that hospitals in some areas, especially in areas with high incident of uninsureds, are charging:

- $ 15 to $ 25 for an aspirin

- $ 18 for a baby aspirin

- $ 7 per each alcohol pad (Box of 200 for $ 2 retail)

- $ 80 for a box of 4X4 compresses ($ 4 at Walgreen)

- $ 18.00 per accucheck strip (55 cents retail)

- $ 71 for common blood pressure pill (16 cents retail)

- $ 20 per blanket they reuse and wash

- $ 40 for surgeon's gowns ($ 6 retail)

- $ 110 for Bacitacin ointment ($ 6 at Walgreen)

- $ 24 each for niacin pills (100 for $ 5 retail)

- $ 120 for an arm sling ($10 retail)

- $ 378 for one unit of Ampicillin ($10 retail)

- $ 387 for one unit of Vancomycin ($ 9.75 retail)

- $ 557 for one unit of Moxilfoxacin ($ 43.75 retail)

- $ 111 for common anti- nausea pill ($ 1.20 retail)

I have seen labs that Tri Care or Medicare pay $ 10 for, but insurance pay $ 350 for.

A review of any hospital bill and you fill find all kinds of stuff you never got if you know what to look for and care enough to look.

Medical Device

Don't even get me started on medical device mark up . . . This is one area where patients can still get gouged so docs and hospitals can make some nice profits and the items are leased to doctors by device companies so they can make profit. There are a lot of device companies so they started doing these lease contracts to get business and be allowed to supply a hospital.

- $ 4,500 bone stimulator that does nothing and costs $ 150 to make. Doctor gets half and medical device company got half under most agreements.

- $ 900 for foreceps ($ 195 retail)

The system is terribly broken right now and will only get worse . . . rapidly unless something is done. Obamacare could actually work if done correctly. Not sure I have the confidence that it will be done correctly, especially with those trying to make sure it does not operate smoothly.

[NeverSure]

Now you are even saying "Republican inspired ACA" ??? It gets nuttier and nuttier!!!

...

Of course they did. It was directly modeled after Romney's Massachusett's plan. It was considered a conservative idea, people taking responsibility for insurance rather than single payer, until Obama accepted it. Then it was demonized by the wacko Obama haters. Of course it's a pretty crappy idea that those republicans had. Single payer is STILL the only real answer to full access and cost controls.

I would love to see single payer implemented in the US. Are YOU willing to be that single payer?

[notmyself]

Your average Republican voter is more than happy to wake you up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday morning with an offer to save your soul but tell them you have a headache and they will charge you 200 bucks for an aspirin.

The raising of the cap and the reopening of the government is good news but the can has just been kicked not so far down the street. The Republicans will continue to obstruct everything they can until shortly after the new year then the same thing will happen. Until such time as they are nailed to the cross they seem so fond of, nothing will change.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted along with replies.

[Baloo22]

Your average Republican voter is more than happy to wake you up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday morning with an offer to save your soul but tell them you have a headache and they will charge you 200 bucks for an aspirin.

The raising of the cap and the reopening of the government is good news but the can has just been kicked not so far down the street. The Republicans will continue to obstruct everything they can until shortly after the new year then the same thing will happen. Until such time as they are nailed to the cross they seem so fond of, nothing will change.

No. Things will start changing for the better when the zero-integrity Obama and the Democrats put the brakes on their out-of-control debt-fueled spending. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are performed.

Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure."

"Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

[Baloo22]

Now you are even saying "Republican inspired ACA" ??? It gets nuttier and nuttier!!!

...

Of course they did. It was directly modeled after Romney's Massachusett's plan. It was considered a conservative idea, people taking responsibility for insurance rather than single payer, until Obama accepted it. Then it was demonized by the wacko Obama haters. Of course it's a pretty crappy idea that those republicans had. Single payer is STILL the only real answer to full access and cost controls.

Absolute fantasy!! It was a bill passed by a Democrat controlled Senate, a Democrat controlled House, and signed by a Democrat president. It is totally Democrat Party, through and through! Right through the Cornhusker Kickback! No doubt about it!

BTW you are using the term "wacko" in the totally wrong direction. It's wacko fantasy to say that the ObamaCare was a Republican plan.

[Robby nz]

Found out many years ago that debt is not a good thing but it seems that now that many people, companies and countries cant live without debt.

What I would be interested to know;

Is there any plan or even idea of paying back or even down this massive debt the US is accumulating?

What is the annual interest payment on the trillions borrowed by the US?

What happens come February when the new debt ceiling is reached and the time granted this time has expired?

China has voiced concern about the amount of US debt it holds and this concern would be noted by other countries so if it proves unwilling to buy more then who will the US borrow this extra debt from?

Posters on here realize that costs must be cut but will the pollies ever have the guts to do this?

If borrowing continues or if there is a default then the time will come when saying 'we are the greatest, the worlds biggest economy' may not be enough.

[samran]

Your average Republican voter is more than happy to wake you up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday morning with an offer to save your soul but tell them you have a headache and they will charge you 200 bucks for an aspirin.

The raising of the cap and the reopening of the government is good news but the can has just been kicked not so far down the street. The Republicans will continue to obstruct everything they can until shortly after the new year then the same thing will happen. Until such time as they are nailed to the cross they seem so fond of, nothing will change.

No. Things will start changing for the better when the zero-integrity Obama and the Democrats put the brakes on their out-of-control debt-fueled spending. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are performed.

Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure."

"Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

Those leading the charge don't believe in government full stop. They want to gpcut back to nothing.

As for debt, I often wonder if people think things through. Debt seems to be okay for individuals and companies, it when it comes to governments, there is a stinking hypocrisy from those same people that government should 'save up its pennies' before committing any new expenditure.

As for debt on out children, why not? If a government decides to fund a highway that my grand children also benefit from, what is conceptually wrong with having them pay part of the cost of that same highway? If the benefits are multigenerational, so should the costs.

[Ulysses G.]

I don't think that anyone thinks that the equivilent of 17 trillion dollars in debt is ok for individuals or companies or the country as a whole - no hypocricy there.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[samran]

I don't think that anyone thinks that the equivilent of 17 trillion dollars in debt is ok for individuals or companies or the country as a whole - no hypocricy there.

Where did I say that UG?

What I am talking about is the simple Simon language being used here by some.

And while the number is big, I am sure there are large elements there which are worthy investments (not that all government programmes should be looked at on a strict bottom line approach, otherwise we'd be struggling to come up with a positive NPV for the military and Medicare).

[chuckd]

Your average Republican voter is more than happy to wake you up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday morning with an offer to save your soul but tell them you have a headache and they will charge you 200 bucks for an aspirin.

The raising of the cap and the reopening of the government is good news but the can has just been kicked not so far down the street. The Republicans will continue to obstruct everything they can until shortly after the new year then the same thing will happen. Until such time as they are nailed to the cross they seem so fond of, nothing will change.

No. Things will start changing for the better when the zero-integrity Obama and the Democrats put the brakes on their out-of-control debt-fueled spending. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are performed.

Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure."

"Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

Those leading the charge don't believe in government full stop. They want to gpcut back to nothing.

As for debt, I often wonder if people think things through. Debt seems to be okay for individuals and companies, it when it comes to governments, there is a stinking hypocrisy from those same people that government should 'save up its pennies' before committing any new expenditure.

As for debt on out children, why not? If a government decides to fund a highway that my grand children also benefit from, what is conceptually wrong with having them pay part of the cost of that same highway? If the benefits are multigenerational, so should the costs.

Just for a touch of reality here. Not one highway was built nor pothole repaired for this princely sum.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. debt jumps a record $328 billion — tops $17 trillion for first time

By Stephen Dinan-The Washington Times Friday, October 18, 2013

U.S. debt jumped a record $328 billion on Thursday, the first day the federal government was able to borrow money under the deal President Obama and Congress sealed this week.

The debt now equals $17.075 trillion, according to figures the Treasury Department posted online on Friday.

The $328 billion increase shattered the previous high of $238 billion set two years ago.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/18/us-debt-jumps-400-billion-tops-17-trillion-first-t/#ixzz2i8zWcNoa

[samran]

Chuck, have you ever done a DCF in your life?

[NeverSure]

Now you are even saying "Republican inspired ACA" ??? It gets nuttier and nuttier!!!

...

Of course they did. It was directly modeled after Romney's Massachusett's plan. It was considered a conservative idea, people taking responsibility for insurance rather than single payer, until Obama accepted it. Then it was demonized by the wacko Obama haters. Of course it's a pretty crappy idea that those republicans had. Single payer is STILL the only real answer to full access and cost controls.

The problem is very little cost control in the right places at this time because we are constantly subsidizing uninsured that cannot be denied care. Do you realize that hospitals in some areas, especially in areas with high incident of uninsureds, are charging:

- $ 15 to $ 25 for an aspirin

- $ 18 for a baby aspirin

- $ 7 per each alcohol pad (Box of 200 for $ 2 retail)

- $ 80 for a box of 4X4 compresses ($ 4 at Walgreen)

- $ 18.00 per accucheck strip (55 cents retail)

- $ 71 for common blood pressure pill (16 cents retail)

- $ 20 per blanket they reuse and wash

- $ 40 for surgeon's gowns ($ 6 retail)

- $ 110 for Bacitacin ointment ($ 6 at Walgreen)

- $ 24 each for niacin pills (100 for $ 5 retail)

- $ 120 for an arm sling ($10 retail)

- $ 378 for one unit of Ampicillin ($10 retail)

- $ 387 for one unit of Vancomycin ($ 9.75 retail)

- $ 557 for one unit of Moxilfoxacin ($ 43.75 retail)

- $ 111 for common anti- nausea pill ($ 1.20 retail)

I have seen labs that Tri Care or Medicare pay $ 10 for, but insurance pay $ 350 for.

A review of any hospital bill and you fill find all kinds of stuff you never got if you know what to look for and care enough to look.

Medical Device

Don't even get me started on medical device mark up . . . This is one area where patients can still get gouged so docs and hospitals can make some nice profits and the items are leased to doctors by device companies so they can make profit. There are a lot of device companies so they started doing these lease contracts to get business and be allowed to supply a hospital.

- $ 4,500 bone stimulator that does nothing and costs $ 150 to make. Doctor gets half and medical device company got half under most agreements.

- $ 900 for foreceps ($ 195 retail)

The system is terribly broken right now and will only get worse . . . rapidly unless something is done. Obamacare could actually work if done correctly. Not sure I have the confidence that it will be done correctly, especially with those trying to make sure it does not operate smoothly.

I just had to "like" this. It's my biggest bitch about Obamacare. When Obamacare was passed, the Democrats ruled both houses of congress and Obama was president. They could have made any new laws they wanted to. They did pass Obamacare.

But while passing Obamacare, they did absolutely nothing about these costs. And you're right about the costs. IMHO they got it bass ackwards. It's called the "Affordable..." but they did nothing to actually make it affordable. Medical costs are the same or more, a huge layer of bureaucracy has been placed on top of it adding greatly to costs, and I think everyone on the planet knows that US health care costs were already sky high.

I could get behind something that addressed costs for real, and that let insurance companies sell across state lines to greatly increase competition for those premiums, and a few other common sense things first to get it actually affordable. Another obstacle is that the American Medical Association (AMA) is a group for doctors and the like to join and it has the power to approve (or not) new medical schools. New medical schools would turn out more doctors and increase competition but the AMA has that locked up.

What we are doing instead is throwing money at an already failed system, forcing people to buy in or pay a nominal fine, but making the prices so high that too many are electing to opt out and pay the fine, remaining uninsured.

Big Pharma, the AMA, the medical equipment industry, the health care provider unions and all have their lock on their piece because they are big campaign contributors, and the guy on the street never caught a break.

[chuckd]

Chuck, have you ever done a DCF in your life?

Nope, and don't intend to start now. I always left it up to my bean counters to do that sort of thing.

Why don't you give us your very own version?

[chuckd]

Now you are even saying "Republican inspired ACA" ??? It gets nuttier and nuttier!!!

...

Of course they did. It was directly modeled after Romney's Massachusett's plan. It was considered a conservative idea, people taking responsibility for insurance rather than single payer, until Obama accepted it. Then it was demonized by the wacko Obama haters. Of course it's a pretty crappy idea that those republicans had. Single payer is STILL the only real answer to full access and cost controls.

The problem is very little cost control in the right places at this time because we are constantly subsidizing uninsured that cannot be denied care. Do you realize that hospitals in some areas, especially in areas with high incident of uninsureds, are charging:

- $ 15 to $ 25 for an aspirin

- $ 18 for a baby aspirin

- $ 7 per each alcohol pad (Box of 200 for $ 2 retail)

- $ 80 for a box of 4X4 compresses ($ 4 at Walgreen)

- $ 18.00 per accucheck strip (55 cents retail)

- $ 71 for common blood pressure pill (16 cents retail)

- $ 20 per blanket they reuse and wash

- $ 40 for surgeon's gowns ($ 6 retail)

- $ 110 for Bacitacin ointment ($ 6 at Walgreen)

- $ 24 each for niacin pills (100 for $ 5 retail)

- $ 120 for an arm sling ($10 retail)

- $ 378 for one unit of Ampicillin ($10 retail)

- $ 387 for one unit of Vancomycin ($ 9.75 retail)

- $ 557 for one unit of Moxilfoxacin ($ 43.75 retail)

- $ 111 for common anti- nausea pill ($ 1.20 retail)

I have seen labs that Tri Care or Medicare pay $ 10 for, but insurance pay $ 350 for.

A review of any hospital bill and you fill find all kinds of stuff you never got if you know what to look for and care enough to look.

Medical Device

Don't even get me started on medical device mark up . . . This is one area where patients can still get gouged so docs and hospitals can make some nice profits and the items are leased to doctors by device companies so they can make profit. There are a lot of device companies so they started doing these lease contracts to get business and be allowed to supply a hospital.

- $ 4,500 bone stimulator that does nothing and costs $ 150 to make. Doctor gets half and medical device company got half under most agreements.

- $ 900 for foreceps ($ 195 retail)

The system is terribly broken right now and will only get worse . . . rapidly unless something is done. Obamacare could actually work if done correctly. Not sure I have the confidence that it will be done correctly, especially with those trying to make sure it does not operate smoothly.

I just had to "like" this. It's my biggest bitch about Obamacare. When Obamacare was passed, the Democrats ruled both houses of congress and Obama was president. They could have made any new laws they wanted to. They did pass Obamacare.

But while passing Obamacare, they did absolutely nothing about these costs. And you're right about the costs. IMHO they got it bass ackwards. It's called the "Affordable..." but they did nothing to actually make it affordable. Medical costs are the same or more, a huge layer of bureaucracy has been placed on top of it adding greatly to costs, and I think everyone on the planet knows that US health care costs were already sky high.

I could get behind something that addressed costs for real, and that let insurance companies sell across state lines to greatly increase competition for those premiums, and a few other common sense things first to get it actually affordable. Another obstacle is that the American Medical Association (AMA) is a group for doctors and the like to join and it has the power to approve (or not) new medical schools. New medical schools would turn out more doctors and increase competition but the AMA has that locked up.

What we are doing instead is throwing money at an already failed system, forcing people to buy in or pay a nominal fine, but making the prices so high that too many are electing to opt out and pay the fine, remaining uninsured.

Big Pharma, the AMA, the medical equipment industry, the health care provider unions and all have their lock on their piece because they are big campaign contributors, and the guy on the street never caught a break.

Don't forget to throw in a little tort reform at the same time.

[SinglePot]

- $ 15 to $ 25 for an aspirin

- $ 18 for a baby aspirin

- $ 7 per each alcohol pad (Box of 200 for $ 2 retail)

- $ 80 for a box of 4X4 compresses ($ 4 at Walgreen)

- $ 18.00 per accucheck strip (55 cents retail)

- $ 71 for common blood pressure pill (16 cents retail)

- $ 20 per blanket they reuse and wash

- $ 40 for surgeon's gowns ($ 6 retail)

- $ 110 for Bacitacin ointment ($ 6 at Walgreen)

- $ 24 each for niacin pills (100 for $ 5 retail)

- $ 120 for an arm sling ($10 retail)

- $ 378 for one unit of Ampicillin ($10 retail)

- $ 387 for one unit of Vancomycin ($ 9.75 retail)

- $ 557 for one unit of Moxilfoxacin ($ 43.75 retail)

- $ 111 for common anti- nausea pill ($ 1.20 retail)

I can not believe these figures.

Even the richest oil sheik in the world paying these costs at a private London health clinic would have a debt problem.

[chuckd]

- $ 15 to $ 25 for an aspirin

- $ 18 for a baby aspirin

- $ 7 per each alcohol pad (Box of 200 for $ 2 retail)

- $ 80 for a box of 4X4 compresses ($ 4 at Walgreen)

- $ 18.00 per accucheck strip (55 cents retail)

- $ 71 for common blood pressure pill (16 cents retail)

- $ 20 per blanket they reuse and wash

- $ 40 for surgeon's gowns ($ 6 retail)

- $ 110 for Bacitacin ointment ($ 6 at Walgreen)

- $ 24 each for niacin pills (100 for $ 5 retail)

- $ 120 for an arm sling ($10 retail)

- $ 378 for one unit of Ampicillin ($10 retail)

- $ 387 for one unit of Vancomycin ($ 9.75 retail)

- $ 557 for one unit of Moxilfoxacin ($ 43.75 retail)

- $ 111 for common anti- nausea pill ($ 1.20 retail)

I can not believe these figures.

Even the richest oil sheik in the world paying these costs at a private London health clinic would have a debt problem.

Yeah, I missed the link supporting those claims as well.

[SinglePot]

Yep.

3 people with a broken arm and post- operative osteomyelitis cos the surgeon was cutting corners, and the entire US health budget is spent.

Serious point though. Subsidised healthcare only works if healthcare provision is efficient and regulated.

UK system, 50 plus years experience and still learning.

Private needs to be separated from public. Oil sheik in London pays private rate.

[Baloo22]

Your average Republican voter is more than happy to wake you up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday morning with an offer to save your soul but tell them you have a headache and they will charge you 200 bucks for an aspirin.

The raising of the cap and the reopening of the government is good news but the can has just been kicked not so far down the street. The Republicans will continue to obstruct everything they can until shortly after the new year then the same thing will happen. Until such time as they are nailed to the cross they seem so fond of, nothing will change.

No. Things will start changing for the better when the zero-integrity Obama and the Democrats put the brakes on their out-of-control debt-fueled spending. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are performed.

Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure."

"Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

Those leading the charge don't believe in government full stop. They want to gpcut back to nothing.

As for debt, I often wonder if people think things through. Debt seems to be okay for individuals and companies, it when it comes to governments, there is a stinking hypocrisy from those same people that government should 'save up its pennies' before committing any new expenditure.

As for debt on out children, why not? If a government decides to fund a highway that my grand children also benefit from, what is conceptually wrong with having them pay part of the cost of that same highway? If the benefits are multigenerational, so should the costs.

Some debt for certain periods can be "okay" for individuals and companies. Constantly increasing their debt with out-of-control spending, no payments, and constantly increasing the debt limit (debt ceiling) on their credit/charge cards is not a good financial plan for individuals or companies. No hypocrisy at all!!

In fact, when this happens to individuals and companies, the bank eventually refuses to raise their debt limit (debt ceiling) and/or the individuals end up in a court under one of the federal bankruptcy laws. But with the federal government, the out-of-control spenders are able to raise their own debt ceiling/debt limit. Do you propose some sort of "bankruptcy" for the federal government?

The problem with your attempted "highway" analogy is that a far too great amount of the debt spending is on today's payments for today's expenses. Our country needs adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

[SinglePot]

And the problem with bean counters is they know the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

[hellodolly]

When Senator McCain was running for prez, he said something like; "let's look at spending across the board, and see what can be cut - but we won't touch veterans' benefits."

McCain is a military veteran. What he said is symptomatic of everyone who gets money from the Federal coffers. All of 'em talk about the need to either cut programs or lessen expenses, but everyone has one or more favorite programs which are sacrosanct from their individual perspective. Social Security (which was opposed by Reps when first proposed by Dems) is now considered untouchable by those receiving it. Pensions, same. SSI, same. PIK, Medicaid, Medicare, Food Stamps, NIH, and a thousand other Fed pay-out programs, are all considered indispensable by those benefiting from them.

In essence, Americans say; "Ok cut back on someone else's program if you must, but don't even think about cutting back on a program which sends me a check." Recently, some politicians said that paying on the Nat'l debt (and bonds and all the rest) is #1 priority. Apparently, to them, it's therefore more important than veteran benefits, and their own salaries/pensions.

To me, the most important program to maintain, is keeping nuclear fuel rods refrigerated. Think about it: if those hundreds of fuel dumps aren't kept artificially very cold, the water would boil off, and fission resumes. In essence; there's a nuclear 'dirty bomb' at each site. What's worse? pissing off the Chinese and Japanese by not paying dividends on their loans to the US, or a hundred dirty Nuke bombs going off in the US? I'd also maintain feeding of zoo animals.

To me, the best way to lessen runaway spending is to start by decreasing spending by 20% on everything. Concurrently, get input from all sorts of Americans (not just politicians) on which Fed programs to ditch (like PIK), and which to lower funding for (like retirement benefits for rich people).

You are 100% correct. Across-the-board cuts would probably be a start, although 20% is a bit much. But I believe that there is one area that could be cut and would save us billions without ruffling any feathers. It's called waste, fraud, and abuse. There is tons of waste and fraud in the system, from medicare to tax evaders to sending checks to dead people. Not to mention outright corruption. I have worked with the DoD, for example, and have seen it with my own eyes. It's amazing that more is not being done about it.

Not sure I would want to see SS cut 20% some people have paid 100% into it for all their working life. Then there are the ones like me who only paid in for 10 years and get the handsome sum of $386 a month.

But the forign spwending is where it has to be stopped. I am under the understanding that the U S Government is still sending the IRA $17,000,000 a year and I am sure there are many other piles of cash going out to countries that is not helping the U S or them. Then cut the military back.

Thank God/Buddha/Allah we have a democrat in the white house or there would be two more unwinable wars sucking money out of tax payers pockets.

[hellodolly]

Your average Republican voter is more than happy to wake you up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday morning with an offer to save your soul but tell them you have a headache and they will charge you 200 bucks for an aspirin.

The raising of the cap and the reopening of the government is good news but the can has just been kicked not so far down the street. The Republicans will continue to obstruct everything they can until shortly after the new year then the same thing will happen. Until such time as they are nailed to the cross they seem so fond of, nothing will change.

No. Things will start changing for the better when the zero-integrity Obama and the Democrats put the brakes on their out-of-control debt-fueled spending. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are performed.

Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure."

"Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

Those leading the charge don't believe in government full stop. They want to gpcut back to nothing.

As for debt, I often wonder if people think things through. Debt seems to be okay for individuals and companies, it when it comes to governments, there is a stinking hypocrisy from those same people that government should 'save up its pennies' before committing any new expenditure.

As for debt on out children, why not? If a government decides to fund a highway that my grand children also benefit from, what is conceptually wrong with having them pay part of the cost of that same highway? If the benefits are multigenerational, so should the costs.

Some debt for certain periods can be "okay" for individuals and companies. Constantly increasing their debt with out-of-control spending, no payments, and constantly increasing the debt limit (debt ceiling) on their credit/charge cards is not a good financial plan for individuals or companies. No hypocrisy at all!!

In fact, when this happens to individuals and companies, the bank eventually refuses to raise their debt limit (debt ceiling) and/or the individuals end up in a court under one of the federal bankruptcy laws. But with the federal government, the out-of-control spenders are able to raise their own debt ceiling/debt limit. Do you propose some sort of "bankruptcy" for the federal government?

The problem with your attempted "highway" analogy is that a far too great amount of the debt spending is on today's payments for today's expenses. Our country needs adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

With all due respect you talk like a person who thinks every thing was under control when the power was turned over to the Democrats. Using your ideas the country would have suffered the greatest depression of all time. Dragging the rest of the world behind them.

Dumb as he was Bush realized the Government had to start spending to save industry. He just wasn't smart enough to see that he was pouring billions and Billions down a bottomless well in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or when he was informed that changes had to be made or he would run the risk of a depression. He made no changes.

The corner has been turned and the government will soon be able to start paying down it will take time but it will happen. In the mean time America has finaly started to do some thing for the health costs that only the rich could afford or those who lived just above the poverty line because of the ridicules cost of health insurance. Yes there is much to be altered there but thanks to people like Obama there is a start. The health business will soon find out that they are not God's and learn how to doctor again. Maybe in the future every one will be able to afford the high cost that you have to pay a doctor to tell you. You have a cold. But not today.

[boomerangutang]

- $ 15 to $ 25 for an aspirin

- $ 18 for a baby aspirin

- $ 7 per each alcohol pad (Box of 200 for $ 2 retail)

- $ 80 for a box of 4X4 compresses ($ 4 at Walgreen)

- $ 18.00 per accucheck strip (55 cents retail)

- $ 71 for common blood pressure pill (16 cents retail)

- $ 20 per blanket they reuse and wash

- $ 40 for surgeon's gowns ($ 6 retail)

- $ 110 for Bacitacin ointment ($ 6 at Walgreen)

- $ 24 each for niacin pills (100 for $ 5 retail)

- $ 120 for an arm sling ($10 retail)

- $ 378 for one unit of Ampicillin ($10 retail)

- $ 387 for one unit of Vancomycin ($ 9.75 retail)

- $ 557 for one unit of Moxilfoxacin ($ 43.75 retail)

- $ 111 for common anti- nausea pill ($ 1.20 retail)

I can not believe these figures.

Even the richest oil sheik in the world paying these costs at a private London health clinic would have a debt problem.

"Saline drips" Medicare reimburses $1.07 for a 1-liter plastic bag of salt water (supplied by a subsidiary of Morton Salt), a NY hospital charged patients' insurance companies like Aetna and United Healthcare $91 per bag. Other hospitals decline to charge per-bag, listing only "IV therapy" of, for example, $393.50 for hooking up the drip. [New York Times, 8-27-2013]

Boomerangutang adds: Let's all try to stay healthy. I'm one of those, when the time comes when my health goes downhill on a tobagan, I'm going to die. Simple as that. Hope it happens quick. I could neither afford, nor want life-support-related treatment. Same for heart by-pass, liver transplant, chemo, and the myriad of other procedures things which keep well-off people alive, but not necessarily content (mentally) for subsequent months/years.

Years ago, I got a staph infection on my hip, from a fall from a hammock in Mexico. I got to Arizona. Hospital asked if I had insurance, I said 'no' but I showed them my check-book from a California bank. Hospital turned me away. Drug store wouldn't sell me antibiotics. I met 2 young girls and talked them in to bringing drugs from their mothers' medicine cabinet. They actually came back with a few bottles, but I didn't know what they were, so I didn't take them. By this time I could barely walk, from pain. Somehow, drove to California, though nearly blacked out several times while driving. CA doc told me, if I'd gone a couple more days without treatment, I could have lost my leg at the hip. He fixed me up for $170. Best $170 I ever spent.

[SinglePot]

Going to the doctor should be free.

How that doctor gets reimbursed for his services should be a contractual arrangement between him and the government.

If US doctors don't want to do it for the US people they can run private businesses for wealthy people who are paying. Outside the national system.

Same with legal system.

Same with education.

[Ulysses G.]

Years ago, I got a staph infection on my hip, from a fall from a hammock in Mexico. I got to Arizona. Hospital asked if I had insurance, I said 'no' but I showed them my check-book from a California bank. Hospital turned me away.

That must have been before Reagan passed legislation requiring emegency rooms to treat you whether you can pay, or not. They can't say no anymore.

Edited October 19, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[boomerangutang]

Going to the doctor should be free.

How that doctor gets reimbursed for his services should be a contractual arrangement between him and the government.

If US doctors don't want to do it for the US people they can run private businesses for wealthy people who are paying. Outside the national system.

Same with legal system.

Same with education.

I agree somewhat. However, with medical and legal issues, there should be parameters - regarding what can be, and what would not be covered by the State or Feds. There could also be provisions to provide a greater % of finances for poor/unemployed needing services, compared to those who are well-off and/or gainfully employed.