US Senate votes to raise debt cap, reopen government

[SinglePot]

BtW guys. I know we are talking about US economy, but just have a little think about how the emerging economy of China is going to deal with the issues being raised on this thread.

1.4 billion people with health issues that make the US look like the Olympic Track and Field Team.

Socialism, capitalism, demo, rep, insurance, single payer, debt, surplus, personal responsibility, provision for the less fortunate etc etc etc.

Catch you later.

SP

[Publicus]

Interesting article.

-----

Poll: Amid shutdown, Republican falls further behind in race for Va. governor

. . .

Many say the shutdown will have an impact on their vote -- 38 percent of registered voters said it would have a major impact on it; 21 percent said it would have a minor one. Among respondents who said it has had a major impact on their vote, McAuliffe is winning them 55-27 percent. Among those who say it is a minor issue, McAuliffe also leads, 52-33 percent.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/10/17/21012601-poll-amid-shutdown-republican-falls-further-behind-in-race-for-va-governor?lite

This is a pretty weak example to try to prove anything, frankly. First, it's by NBC which is well known to be very liberal and Democrat supportive.

Second, Virginia is and has been a blue state that votes for Democrats anyway. It is just loaded with government employees, a major Naval installation, much military and other government installations and contractors, and in general lives off federal tax dollars.

Additionally, it's right across the river from Washington DC, and many federal employees who work in DC live in VA as a suburb for DC. A huge majority of these people vote for Democrats to secure the spending and their job security and benefits.

The Democrat would win in Va. no matter what, so I doubt this is really applicable or representative.

Romney's 47% of Americans, only this time it's Virginians.

Another Red state goes Blue and it's only and exclusively because they're on the government dole.

The post is yet another tea party written, home schooling lesson in Civics.

In other words, vacuous.

[Johpa]

- $ 15 to $ 25 for an aspirin

- $ 18 for a baby aspirin

- $ 7 per each alcohol pad (Box of 200 for $ 2 retail)

- $ 80 for a box of 4X4 compresses ($ 4 at Walgreen)

- $ 18.00 per accucheck strip (55 cents retail)

- $ 71 for common blood pressure pill (16 cents retail)

- $ 20 per blanket they reuse and wash

- $ 40 for surgeon's gowns ($ 6 retail)

- $ 110 for Bacitacin ointment ($ 6 at Walgreen)

- $ 24 each for niacin pills (100 for $ 5 retail)

- $ 120 for an arm sling ($10 retail)

- $ 378 for one unit of Ampicillin ($10 retail)

- $ 387 for one unit of Vancomycin ($ 9.75 retail)

- $ 557 for one unit of Moxilfoxacin ($ 43.75 retail)

- $ 111 for common anti- nausea pill ($ 1.20 retail)

I can not believe these figures.

Even the richest oil sheik in the world paying these costs at a private London health clinic would have a debt problem.

Yeah, I missed the link supporting those claims as well.

May I suggest reading Steven Brill's piece in Time magazine Bitter Pill to become more educated regarding how hospitals bill patients and insurance companies. It is just one piece of the puzzle as to why the US spends so much more on health care than other nations without any increase in the overall health of the citizenry.

[Baloo22]

No. Things will start changing for the better when the zero-integrity Obama and the Democrats put the brakes on their out-of-control debt-fueled spending. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are performed.

Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure."

"Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

Those leading the charge don't believe in government full stop. They want to gpcut back to nothing.

As for debt, I often wonder if people think things through. Debt seems to be okay for individuals and companies, it when it comes to governments, there is a stinking hypocrisy from those same people that government should 'save up its pennies' before committing any new expenditure.

As for debt on out children, why not? If a government decides to fund a highway that my grand children also benefit from, what is conceptually wrong with having them pay part of the cost of that same highway? If the benefits are multigenerational, so should the costs.

Some debt for certain periods can be "okay" for individuals and companies. Constantly increasing their debt with out-of-control spending, no payments, and constantly increasing the debt limit (debt ceiling) on their credit/charge cards is not a good financial plan for individuals or companies. No hypocrisy at all!!

In fact, when this happens to individuals and companies, the bank eventually refuses to raise their debt limit (debt ceiling) and/or the individuals end up in a court under one of the federal bankruptcy laws. But with the federal government, the out-of-control spenders are able to raise their own debt ceiling/debt limit. Do you propose some sort of "bankruptcy" for the federal government?

The problem with your attempted "highway" analogy is that a far too great amount of the debt spending is on today's payments for today's expenses. Our country needs adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

With all due respect you talk like a person who thinks every thing was under control when the power was turned over to the Democrats. Using your ideas the country would have suffered the greatest depression of all time. Dragging the rest of the world behind them.

Dumb as he was Bush realized the Government had to start spending to save industry. He just wasn't smart enough to see that he was pouring billions and Billions down a bottomless well in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or when he was informed that changes had to be made or he would run the risk of a depression. He made no changes.

The corner has been turned and the government will soon be able to start paying down it will take time but it will happen. In the mean time America has finaly started to do some thing for the health costs that only the rich could afford or those who lived just above the poverty line because of the ridicules cost of health insurance. Yes there is much to be altered there but thanks to people like Obama there is a start. The health business will soon find out that they are not God's and learn how to doctor again. Maybe in the future every one will be able to afford the high cost that you have to pay a doctor to tell you. You have a cold. But not today.

With all due respect what you are saying boils down to more made-up Blame Bush blather!! Close to the five year mark now. Exactly what year of the Obama era can we expect him or any of his regime to accept any responsibility for anything. We truly do need the adults in Washington D.C. to refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.................".

[F430murci]

- $ 15 to $ 25 for an aspirin

- $ 18 for a baby aspirin

- $ 7 per each alcohol pad (Box of 200 for $ 2 retail)

- $ 80 for a box of 4X4 compresses ($ 4 at Walgreen)

- $ 18.00 per accucheck strip (55 cents retail)

- $ 71 for common blood pressure pill (16 cents retail)

- $ 20 per blanket they reuse and wash

- $ 40 for surgeon's gowns ($ 6 retail)

- $ 110 for Bacitacin ointment ($ 6 at Walgreen)

- $ 24 each for niacin pills (100 for $ 5 retail)

- $ 120 for an arm sling ($10 retail)

- $ 378 for one unit of Ampicillin ($10 retail)

- $ 387 for one unit of Vancomycin ($ 9.75 retail)

- $ 557 for one unit of Moxilfoxacin ($ 43.75 retail)

- $ 111 for common anti- nausea pill ($ 1.20 retail)

I can not believe these figures.

Even the richest oil sheik in the world paying these costs at a private London health clinic would have a debt problem.

Yeah, I missed the link supporting those claims as well.

May I suggest reading Steven Brill's piece in Time magazine Bitter Pill to become more educated regarding how hospitals bill patients and insurance companies. It is just one piece of the puzzle as to why the US spends so much more on health care than other nations without any increase in the overall health of the citizenry.

Yep, your link ($ 7 for a single gauze and 10,000 % markup on Tylenol) consistent with my real work data that some are just too cynical to find themselves. I have a huge spread sheet of real world costs and reimbursement rates that would blow your mind.

Interesting how a couple of bags of antibiotics with a retail of $ 40 could cost more than a spinal fusion surgery performed by a neurosurgeon.

It's all about lobby power. Drug and device companies have a lot of it and more than the doctors so guess who gets paid more.

What does that tell you when a drug or device rep with a college degree in anything (history, communication, sports, or ???) can make more than the doctors they sell to.

Why do you think ambulance bills are $ 995, as in Time article? Because they spend most of the day as a taxi service for uninsured so us with insurance or money subsidize.

-----

He employs a classic journalistic practice: he follows the money, and he does it right down to the 10,000% markup that hospitals put on acetaminophen. He explains why about one-fourth of our bloated health care spending is overpayment and strips the veneer from of a vital American industry that is not always what it seems to be.

. . .

Both sides of the aisle are culpable, as our elected leaders refuse to rein in hospitals and health care providers. According to Brill, there are things that can be done . . . lowering the age of Medicare entry, not raising it . . . allowing Medicare to competitively price and assess drugs would save billions of dollars . . . make sure you look at your hospital bill.

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2136867,00.html

Edited October 19, 2013 by F430murci

[Baloo22]

When Senator McCain was running for prez, he said something like; "let's look at spending across the board, and see what can be cut - but we won't touch veterans' benefits."

McCain is a military veteran. What he said is symptomatic of everyone who gets money from the Federal coffers. All of 'em talk about the need to either cut programs or lessen expenses, but everyone has one or more favorite programs which are sacrosanct from their individual perspective. Social Security (which was opposed by Reps when first proposed by Dems) is now considered untouchable by those receiving it. Pensions, same. SSI, same. PIK, Medicaid, Medicare, Food Stamps, NIH, and a thousand other Fed pay-out programs, are all considered indispensable by those benefiting from them.

In essence, Americans say; "Ok cut back on someone else's program if you must, but don't even think about cutting back on a program which sends me a check." Recently, some politicians said that paying on the Nat'l debt (and bonds and all the rest) is #1 priority. Apparently, to them, it's therefore more important than veteran benefits, and their own salaries/pensions.

To me, the most important program to maintain, is keeping nuclear fuel rods refrigerated. Think about it: if those hundreds of fuel dumps aren't kept artificially very cold, the water would boil off, and fission resumes. In essence; there's a nuclear 'dirty bomb' at each site. What's worse? pissing off the Chinese and Japanese by not paying dividends on their loans to the US, or a hundred dirty Nuke bombs going off in the US? I'd also maintain feeding of zoo animals.

To me, the best way to lessen runaway spending is to start by decreasing spending by 20% on everything. Concurrently, get input from all sorts of Americans (not just politicians) on which Fed programs to ditch (like PIK), and which to lower funding for (like retirement benefits for rich people).

You are 100% correct. Across-the-board cuts would probably be a start, although 20% is a bit much. But I believe that there is one area that could be cut and would save us billions without ruffling any feathers. It's called waste, fraud, and abuse. There is tons of waste and fraud in the system, from medicare to tax evaders to sending checks to dead people. Not to mention outright corruption. I have worked with the DoD, for example, and have seen it with my own eyes. It's amazing that more is not being done about it.

Not sure I would want to see SS cut 20% some people have paid 100% into it for all their working life. Then there are the ones like me who only paid in for 10 years and get the handsome sum of $386 a month.

But the forign spwending is where it has to be stopped. I am under the understanding that the U S Government is still sending the IRA $17,000,000 a year and I am sure there are many other piles of cash going out to countries that is not helping the U S or them. Then cut the military back.

Thank God/Buddha/Allah we have a democrat in the white house or there would be two more unwinable wars sucking money out of tax payers pockets.

So, you say the United States is still sending the IRA (Irish Republican Army ???) $17,000,000 a year. Pray tell, what exactly is your source for this accusation?

And if you want to thank someone for stopping the U.S. entry into another war, thank President Putin. It was President Putin that administered a good smack to the snout of Obama and prevented him from starting his distraction campaign of flinging high-explosives into Syria.

[notmyself]

Some debt for certain periods can be "okay" for individuals and companies. Constantly increasing their debt with out-of-control spending, no payments, and constantly increasing the debt limit (debt ceiling) on their credit/charge cards is not a good financial plan for individuals or companies. No hypocrisy at all!!

In fact, when this happens to individuals and companies, the bank eventually refuses to raise their debt limit (debt ceiling) and/or the individuals end up in a court under one of the federal bankruptcy laws. But with the federal government, the out-of-control spenders are able to raise their own debt ceiling/debt limit. Do you propose some sort of "bankruptcy" for the federal government?

The problem with your attempted "highway" analogy is that a far too great amount of the debt spending is on today's payments for today's expenses. Our country needs adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

I'd like to know more on this 'out of control spending' because the deficit is going down, not up.

[hellodolly]

Baloo22 You say

"With all due respect what you are saying boils down to more made-up Blame Bush blather!! Close to the five year mark now. Exactly what year of the Obama era can we expect him or any of his regime to accept any responsibility for anything. We truly do need the adults in Washington D.C. to refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

I was merely pointing put the bucket of shit Bush handed to Obama. I believe I mentioned that using your method rather than Obama's the States would have seen the worst depression in history and dragged the world down with them. I believe they are claiming responsibility for stopping the express train to destruction that they were given. They are excepting the fact that they have finally started a health system for all Americans. It needs work on but it is a start. You Republicans blew your chance in 94 when Clinton using his wife tried to help all Americans. Obama has showed you up for the money grubbing heartless phonies you are.

Thanks to Obama America has a chance at the future. Using your don't spend money just hoard it will lead no where. I wonder what The Republicans are going to say when the Democrats in the future tackle the interstate system. For sure the Republicans will be to busy counting money to realize there is a lot of old road work that needs redoing. It is going to be a long road back but give them the time and they can take it back to the glory years of the Clinton administration. You remember those days when Clinton had the states in great shape and the Republicans could not fault it so they attacked him on his sex life.

Sadly through 8 years of inept bungling it will take a long time to return to those glory years. But we now have the leadership.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Until the Republican Party realizes there is more to America than big business and rich people it will remain the laughing stock it is.

It is a shame that the Republicans can not think of the welfare of there fellow country men and work with the Democrats for a better America.

By the way your

"Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

Takes me back to my childhood when that is all we knew was just say it over and over and over again.

[beechguy]

Some debt for certain periods can be "okay" for individuals and companies. Constantly increasing their debt with out-of-control spending, no payments, and constantly increasing the debt limit (debt ceiling) on their credit/charge cards is not a good financial plan for individuals or companies. No hypocrisy at all!!

In fact, when this happens to individuals and companies, the bank eventually refuses to raise their debt limit (debt ceiling) and/or the individuals end up in a court under one of the federal bankruptcy laws. But with the federal government, the out-of-control spenders are able to raise their own debt ceiling/debt limit. Do you propose some sort of "bankruptcy" for the federal government?

The problem with your attempted "highway" analogy is that a far too great amount of the debt spending is on today's payments for today's expenses. Our country needs adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

I'd like to know more on this 'out of control spending' because the deficit is going down, not up.

Probably going down because of the sequester Obama forced himself into when he couldn't agree to an actual budget.

[Baloo22]

Baloo22 You say

"With all due respect what you are saying boils down to more made-up Blame Bush blather!! Close to the five year mark now. Exactly what year of the Obama era can we expect him or any of his regime to accept any responsibility for anything. We truly do need the adults in Washington D.C. to refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

I was merely pointing put the bucket of shit Bush handed to Obama. I believe I mentioned that using your method rather than Obama's the States would have seen the worst depression in history and dragged the world down with them. I believe they are claiming responsibility for stopping the express train to destruction that they were given. They are excepting the fact that they have finally started a health system for all Americans. It needs work on but it is a start. You Republicans blew your chance in 94 when Clinton using his wife tried to help all Americans. Obama has showed you up for the money grubbing heartless phonies you are.

Thanks to Obama America has a chance at the future. Using your don't spend money just hoard it will lead no where. I wonder what The Republicans are going to say when the Democrats in the future tackle the interstate system. For sure the Republicans will be to busy counting money to realize there is a lot of old road work that needs redoing. It is going to be a long road back but give them the time and they can take it back to the glory years of the Clinton administration. You remember those days when Clinton had the states in great shape and the Republicans could not fault it so they attacked him on his sex life.

Sadly through 8 years of inept bungling it will take a long time to return to those glory years. But we now have the leadership.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Until the Republican Party realizes there is more to America than big business and rich people it will remain the laughing stock it is.

It is a shame that the Republicans can not think of the welfare of there fellow country men and work with the Democrats for a better America.

By the way your

"Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

Takes me back to my childhood when that is all we knew was just say it over and over and over again.

Your "I believe" economic speculation is just that, fantasy speculation. And the neither the Republicans nor the U.S. justice system "attacked Clinton on his sex life". The despicable piece of garbage lied under oath in a court of law. He committed perjury. A felony. This from a chief executive that was entrusted to enforce the laws of the United States. Cheap rationalizations of this with "attacked him on his sex life" demonstrates a distinct lack of integrity!

Sadly we have an Obama that has repeatedly demonstrated his zero-integrity disregard for the American people with his crass partisan "Make the People Suffer" shutdown campaign. Instead of performing even the slightest bit of maturity and getting down to negotiating with the People's Representatives. It's thanks to Obama and the constantly debt-fueled spending democrats that are trying to send the United States into economic disaster. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

It's a shame that Obama and the democrats care far more about their crass partisan political goals than they they do about working with the Peoples Representatives on reducing the massive debt that our children and grandchildren will have to pay for. Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure." Obama's leadership failure!!

Yes, it does take us back to our childhood when we continually hear the childish Obama and his supporters constantly repeat the Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush,.............

Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

[notmyself]

Some debt for certain periods can be "okay" for individuals and companies. Constantly increasing their debt with out-of-control spending, no payments, and constantly increasing the debt limit (debt ceiling) on their credit/charge cards is not a good financial plan for individuals or companies. No hypocrisy at all!!

In fact, when this happens to individuals and companies, the bank eventually refuses to raise their debt limit (debt ceiling) and/or the individuals end up in a court under one of the federal bankruptcy laws. But with the federal government, the out-of-control spenders are able to raise their own debt ceiling/debt limit. Do you propose some sort of "bankruptcy" for the federal government?

The problem with your attempted "highway" analogy is that a far too great amount of the debt spending is on today's payments for today's expenses. Our country needs adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

I'd like to know more on this 'out of control spending' because the deficit is going down, not up.

Probably going down because of the sequester Obama forced himself into when he couldn't agree to an actual budget.

It was going down for some time I understand.

Edited October 19, 2013 by notmyself

[samran]

Your average Republican voter is more than happy to wake you up at the crack of dawn on a Saturday morning with an offer to save your soul but tell them you have a headache and they will charge you 200 bucks for an aspirin.

The raising of the cap and the reopening of the government is good news but the can has just been kicked not so far down the street. The Republicans will continue to obstruct everything they can until shortly after the new year then the same thing will happen. Until such time as they are nailed to the cross they seem so fond of, nothing will change.

No. Things will start changing for the better when the zero-integrity Obama and the Democrats put the brakes on their out-of-control debt-fueled spending. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are performed.

Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure."

"Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

Those leading the charge don't believe in government full stop. They want to gpcut back to nothing.

As for debt, I often wonder if people think things through. Debt seems to be okay for individuals and companies, it when it comes to governments, there is a stinking hypocrisy from those same people that government should 'save up its pennies' before committing any new expenditure.

As for debt on out children, why not? If a government decides to fund a highway that my grand children also benefit from, what is conceptually wrong with having them pay part of the cost of that same highway? If the benefits are multigenerational, so should the costs.

Some debt for certain periods can be "okay" for individuals and companies. Constantly increasing their debt with out-of-control spending, no payments, and constantly increasing the debt limit (debt ceiling) on their credit/charge cards is not a good financial plan for individuals or companies. No hypocrisy at all!!

In fact, when this happens to individuals and companies, the bank eventually refuses to raise their debt limit (debt ceiling) and/or the individuals end up in a court under one of the federal bankruptcy laws. But with the federal government, the out-of-control spenders are able to raise their own debt ceiling/debt limit. Do you propose some sort of "bankruptcy" for the federal government?

The problem with your attempted "highway" analogy is that a far too great amount of the debt spending is on today's payments for today's expenses. Our country needs adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

I thought the right was supposed to be all about free markets and no regulation, and here we are having the far right advocate government regulation on the debt ceiling. This from the side of politics who don't believe government can get anything right. Kind of ironic, no?

If the market didn't like US T bills then they'd ask for a higher interest rate. In this case, the market is the hypothetical bank you talk about, and they loooove US T bills at low interest rates.

For a side of politics that has historically been all about free markets, why don't you let the market decide how much US debt they want? Oh that's right, it doesn't suit your agenda.

Or are we witnessing what everyone is saying? That the traditional Republican Party, which for all you could say about it was at least economically literate, has become hostage to economic Neanderthals who think GDP is actually GOP spelled incorrectly.

And the other irony in that, is their total lack of economic sophistication makes them no better than the idiots on the far left of politics. They are one in the same in their idiocy and they don't even know it.

Edited October 19, 2013 by samran

[Johpa]

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.................".

You would have far more credence if the Republicans could come out with a plan other than to vote against anything Obama has to say (only to put the Black man in his place) or come up with some new ideas other than the failed economic ideas of Milton Friedman. But then again Obama has done nothing to alter the criminal behavior on Wall Street and we certainly can't anticipate any change from the most scarlet woman of Wall Street, HIllary Clinton. The Clintons turned the Democratic party into the traditional pro-business Republican Party whilst the tea party idiots have turned the traditional Republican party into a group of neo-facist ideologues. Help us Obi-Wan Kenobi, your our only help. The dark side of the force, greed, is too strong for the feeble minds of Americans.

[notmyself]

And the other irony in that, is their total lack of economic sophistication makes them no better than the idiots on the far left of politics. They are one in the same in their idiocy and they don't even know it.

Refusing to raise the debt ceiling is the same as shutting the door of a business. With no source of income, debt will NEVER be paid off. If a business is losing money then it needs to be turned around until it makes a profit so that the debt can be paid off. Sure, money can be saved up until the point where it affects the ability to generate money. If a business sacks all its staff then it will not generate money for example. If I am earning 50 bucks a day then I can in theory save the entire 50 bucks but would have nowhere to sleep, nothing to eat or drink. I would die and no future money would be generated. One thing I cannot do is save 60 bucks a day for reasons the Republican's don't seem to understand.

If I'm in a car speeding the wrong way I really shouldn't just slap on the breaks because I will go through the windshield. I need to slow down and put the car into reverse. The Bush government left me in a car which was going too fast and had very poor breaks so it will take time to reverse direction.

Basic math.

[Baloo22]

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.................".

You would have far more credence if the Republicans could come out with a plan other than to vote against anything Obama has to say (only to put the Black man in his place) or come up with some new ideas other than the failed economic ideas of Milton Friedman. But then again Obama has done nothing to alter the criminal behavior on Wall Street and we certainly can't anticipate any change from the most scarlet woman of Wall Street, HIllary Clinton. The Clintons turned the Democratic party into the traditional pro-business Republican Party whilst the tea party idiots have turned the traditional Republican party into a group of neo-facist ideologues. Help us Obi-Wan Kenobi, your our only help. The dark side of the force, greed, is too strong for the feeble minds of Americans.

You have got a real confuse jumble in your head. First; Your your weak and shrill "only to put the Black man in his place" is the feeble lie of those that have nothing constructive to say. And the Tea Party are far from idiots. They are the adults in the room who are fighting for fiscal sanity in our federal government. The idiots are Obama and the endless debt-fueled spending democrats that are threatening our children's and grandchildren's future.

There is a dark side. It is the group of neo-fascist ideologues of the Obama regime and the Harry Reid democrats that put their crass political avarice ahead of the good of our nation. The dark side of the force is too strong for the feeble minds of Obama supporters and their "Blame Bush!" mantra. Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure." Obama's leadership failure!!

We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted. Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

[hellodolly]

Baloo22 You say

"With all due respect what you are saying boils down to more made-up Blame Bush blather!! Close to the five year mark now. Exactly what year of the Obama era can we expect him or any of his regime to accept any responsibility for anything. We truly do need the adults in Washington D.C. to refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

I was merely pointing put the bucket of shit Bush handed to Obama. I believe I mentioned that using your method rather than Obama's the States would have seen the worst depression in history and dragged the world down with them. I believe they are claiming responsibility for stopping the express train to destruction that they were given. They are excepting the fact that they have finally started a health system for all Americans. It needs work on but it is a start. You Republicans blew your chance in 94 when Clinton using his wife tried to help all Americans. Obama has showed you up for the money grubbing heartless phonies you are.

Thanks to Obama America has a chance at the future. Using your don't spend money just hoard it will lead no where. I wonder what The Republicans are going to say when the Democrats in the future tackle the interstate system. For sure the Republicans will be to busy counting money to realize there is a lot of old road work that needs redoing. It is going to be a long road back but give them the time and they can take it back to the glory years of the Clinton administration. You remember those days when Clinton had the states in great shape and the Republicans could not fault it so they attacked him on his sex life.

Sadly through 8 years of inept bungling it will take a long time to return to those glory years. But we now have the leadership.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Until the Republican Party realizes there is more to America than big business and rich people it will remain the laughing stock it is.

It is a shame that the Republicans can not think of the welfare of there fellow country men and work with the Democrats for a better America.

By the way your

"Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

Takes me back to my childhood when that is all we knew was just say it over and over and over again.

Your "I believe" economic speculation is just that, fantasy speculation. And the neither the Republicans nor the U.S. justice system "attacked Clinton on his sex life". The despicable piece of garbage lied under oath in a court of law. He committed perjury. A felony. This from a chief executive that was entrusted to enforce the laws of the United States. Cheap rationalizations of this with "attacked him on his sex life" demonstrates a distinct lack of integrity!

Sadly we have an Obama that has repeatedly demonstrated his zero-integrity disregard for the American people with his crass partisan "Make the People Suffer" shutdown campaign. Instead of performing even the slightest bit of maturity and getting down to negotiating with the People's Representatives. It's thanks to Obama and the constantly debt-fueled spending democrats that are trying to send the United States into economic disaster. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

It's a shame that Obama and the democrats care far more about their crass partisan political goals than they they do about working with the Peoples Representatives on reducing the massive debt that our children and grandchildren will have to pay for. Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure." Obama's leadership failure!!

Yes, it does take us back to our childhood when we continually hear the childish Obama and his supporters constantly repeat the Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush,.............

Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

Congratulations you have proved you are a true republican. Admit soothing just think of money. People don't count. I will bow to your great wisdom. Obama was handed a bouquet of Roses and turned them into a bucket of shit. Do you believe in Santa Claus too.

You Republicans are indeed living in lala land. If Rush Limbaugh said the sun would rise in the west and set in the east on odd numbered years you would believe him. I live in a building with one just like you. He has yet to admit that Bush made a mess of it. Albeit he had Cheney and his business interests with Halliburton leading him around by the nose.

The facts are Obama was handed a recession and has managed to turn it around. Yes it cost a lot of money but not near as much as if he had pulled a Republican and done nothing about it we would be in it for many more years. Until you can except reality there is no common grounds of discusion. Also there is no Easter Bunny.

[Baloo22]

And the other irony in that, is their total lack of economic sophistication makes them no better than the idiots on the far left of politics. They are one in the same in their idiocy and they don't even know it.

Refusing to raise the debt ceiling is the same as shutting the door of a business. With no source of income, debt will NEVER be paid off. If a business is losing money then it needs to be turned around until it makes a profit so that the debt can be paid off. Sure, money can be saved up until the point where it affects the ability to generate money. If a business sacks all its staff then it will not generate money for example. If I am earning 50 bucks a day then I can in theory save the entire 50 bucks but would have nowhere to sleep, nothing to eat or drink. I would die and no future money would be generated. One thing I cannot do is save 60 bucks a day for reasons the Republican's don't seem to understand.

If I'm in a car speeding the wrong way I really shouldn't just slap on the breaks because I will go through the windshield. I need to slow down and put the car into reverse. The Bush government left me in a car which was going too fast and had very poor breaks so it will take time to reverse direction.

Basic math.

The refusing to raise the debt limit is a very strong measure. Unfortunately, the severe irresponsibility of the Obama regime and out-of-control spending democrats have proven themselves to lack the maturity and fiscal self-control needed to control spending and the massive increasing national debt. Self-control and fiscal responsibility in the Obama regime is zero. But their denial is continuous!! The cutting up of the credit card is the option left with a chance of correcting the Obama regime's mismanagement.

In your speeding car analogy, Obama and the democrats are driving the car and keep on going the wrong way down the road! It is the Obama regime that continues in the car going too fast, with poor brakes, and will not reverse direction.

“The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. The failure of Obama!!!

[beechguy]

Some debt for certain periods can be "okay" for individuals and companies. Constantly increasing their debt with out-of-control spending, no payments, and constantly increasing the debt limit (debt ceiling) on their credit/charge cards is not a good financial plan for individuals or companies. No hypocrisy at all!!

In fact, when this happens to individuals and companies, the bank eventually refuses to raise their debt limit (debt ceiling) and/or the individuals end up in a court under one of the federal bankruptcy laws. But with the federal government, the out-of-control spenders are able to raise their own debt ceiling/debt limit. Do you propose some sort of "bankruptcy" for the federal government?

The problem with your attempted "highway" analogy is that a far too great amount of the debt spending is on today's payments for today's expenses. Our country needs adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

I'd like to know more on this 'out of control spending' because the deficit is going down, not up.

Probably going down because of the sequester Obama forced himself into when he couldn't agree to an actual budget.It was going down for some time I understand.

1374167_524458447647214_1086104093_n.jpg

Until the 2013 budget, I would hardly call those reductions meaningful, and again those, especially 2013, probably only happened because some Republicans gained some seats. Did they slam on the brakes? Apparently not hard enough to prevent programs like the free telephone program, from growing from $800 Million to $2.2 Billion as an example.

[Baloo22]

Baloo22 You say

"With all due respect what you are saying boils down to more made-up Blame Bush blather!! Close to the five year mark now. Exactly what year of the Obama era can we expect him or any of his regime to accept any responsibility for anything. We truly do need the adults in Washington D.C. to refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

I was merely pointing put the bucket of shit Bush handed to Obama. I believe I mentioned that using your method rather than Obama's the States would have seen the worst depression in history and dragged the world down with them. I believe they are claiming responsibility for stopping the express train to destruction that they were given. They are excepting the fact that they have finally started a health system for all Americans. It needs work on but it is a start. You Republicans blew your chance in 94 when Clinton using his wife tried to help all Americans. Obama has showed you up for the money grubbing heartless phonies you are.

Thanks to Obama America has a chance at the future. Using your don't spend money just hoard it will lead no where. I wonder what The Republicans are going to say when the Democrats in the future tackle the interstate system. For sure the Republicans will be to busy counting money to realize there is a lot of old road work that needs redoing. It is going to be a long road back but give them the time and they can take it back to the glory years of the Clinton administration. You remember those days when Clinton had the states in great shape and the Republicans could not fault it so they attacked him on his sex life.

Sadly through 8 years of inept bungling it will take a long time to return to those glory years. But we now have the leadership.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Until the Republican Party realizes there is more to America than big business and rich people it will remain the laughing stock it is.

It is a shame that the Republicans can not think of the welfare of there fellow country men and work with the Democrats for a better America.

By the way your

"Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

Takes me back to my childhood when that is all we knew was just say it over and over and over again.

Your "I believe" economic speculation is just that, fantasy speculation. And the neither the Republicans nor the U.S. justice system "attacked Clinton on his sex life". The despicable piece of garbage lied under oath in a court of law. He committed perjury. A felony. This from a chief executive that was entrusted to enforce the laws of the United States. Cheap rationalizations of this with "attacked him on his sex life" demonstrates a distinct lack of integrity!

Sadly we have an Obama that has repeatedly demonstrated his zero-integrity disregard for the American people with his crass partisan "Make the People Suffer" shutdown campaign. Instead of performing even the slightest bit of maturity and getting down to negotiating with the People's Representatives. It's thanks to Obama and the constantly debt-fueled spending democrats that are trying to send the United States into economic disaster. We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

It's a shame that Obama and the democrats care far more about their crass partisan political goals than they they do about working with the Peoples Representatives on reducing the massive debt that our children and grandchildren will have to pay for. Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure." Obama's leadership failure!!

Yes, it does take us back to our childhood when we continually hear the childish Obama and his supporters constantly repeat the Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush,.............

Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

Congratulations you have proved you are a true republican. Admit soothing just think of money. People don't count. I will bow to your great wisdom. Obama was handed a bouquet of Roses and turned them into a bucket of shit. Do you believe in Santa Claus too.

You Republicans are indeed living in lala land. If Rush Limbaugh said the sun would rise in the west and set in the east on odd numbered years you would believe him. I live in a building with one just like you. He has yet to admit that Bush made a mess of it. Albeit he had Cheney and his business interests with Halliburton leading him around by the nose.

The facts are Obama was handed a recession and has managed to turn it around. Yes it cost a lot of money but not near as much as if he had pulled a Republican and done nothing about it we would be in it for many more years. Until you can except reality there is no common grounds of discusion. Also there is no Easter Bunny.

Yes, people count. The future generations that will have to pay off the massive and ever growing federal debt that the irresponsible Obama regime refuses to control. You democrats are indeed living in lala land if you think that Obama possesses any management competencies or even the slightest bit of character or integrity. Do you believe in flights of Tooth Fairies that will pay off our federal debt?

I know someone just like you who will swallow every bit of Obama-sponsored lies and excuse every bit of his degenerate conduct. Disgusting!!

The facts are the Obama has continually made the recession worse and continues to dig the debt hole deeper and deeper.

Until you accept reality and realize that the solution to massive debt is not to continue to charge it, charge it, and charge it, there is no common grounds of discussion.

Also, there are no magical fairies that correct Obama's clear lack of integrity nor fill in the massive debt hole for us.

[beechguy]

Baloo22 You say

"With all due respect what you are saying boils down to more made-up Blame Bush blather!! Close to the five year mark now. Exactly what year of the Obama era can we expect him or any of his regime to accept any responsibility for anything. We truly do need the adults in Washington D.C. to refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

I was merely pointing put the bucket of shit Bush handed to Obama. I believe I mentioned that using your method rather than Obama's the States would have seen the worst depression in history and dragged the world down with them. I believe they are claiming responsibility for stopping the express train to destruction that they were given. They are excepting the fact that they have finally started a health system for all Americans. It needs work on but it is a start. You Republicans blew your chance in 94 when Clinton using his wife tried to help all Americans. Obama has showed you up for the money grubbing heartless phonies you are.

Thanks to Obama America has a chance at the future. Using your don't spend money just hoard it will lead no where. I wonder what The Republicans are going to say when the Democrats in the future tackle the interstate system. For sure the Republicans will be to busy counting money to realize there is a lot of old road work that needs redoing. It is going to be a long road back but give them the time and they can take it back to the glory years of the Clinton administration. You remember those days when Clinton had the states in great shape and the Republicans could not fault it so they attacked him on his sex life.

Sadly through 8 years of inept bungling it will take a long time to return to those glory years. But we now have the leadership.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Until the Republican Party realizes there is more to America than big business and rich people it will remain the laughing stock it is.

It is a shame that the Republicans can not think of the welfare of there fellow country men and work with the Democrats for a better America.

By the way your

"Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

Takes me back to my childhood when that is all we knew was just say it over and over and over again.

I don't think we are heartless, but we aren't liking the attitude of some of these people.http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?id=9287949 I suppose Walmart could have shut things down, but then people like you would be accusing them of being racist.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for programs that work properly.

For now, the biggest obstacle for the U.S. not to be a laughing stock, is the community organizer in the White House.

Edited October 19, 2013 by beechguy

[F430murci]

Whoa, this is getting nuts. You guys do realize that part of the budget is both sides put stuff they refuse to take out and cannot agree on some taxes that make perfect sense and are very equitable, To try and cast total aversion to any one person or party in disingenuous or out of step with reality.

[notmyself]

The refusing to raise the debt limit is a very strong measure.

Nope, it's suicidal. It is somewhat akin to quitting your job because you cant pay the rent on your home rather than finding a new job which pays more and/ or a cheaper home to rent.

"Cutting off the nose to spite the face" is an expression used to describe a needlessly self-destructive over-reaction to a problem: "Don't cut off your nose to spite your face" is a warning against acting out of pique, or against pursuing revenge in a way that would damage oneself more than the object of one's anger"

The phrase is known to have been used in the 12th century. It may be associated with the numerous legends of pious women disfiguring themselves in order to protect their virginity. These cases include Saint Eusebia, Saint Ebba, Saint Oda of Hainault and Saint Margaret of Hungary

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutting_off_the_nose_to_spite_the_face

*It has become the norm on forums to indent and color red when quoting text from an external (i.e. non forum) source.

Unfortunately, the severe irresponsibility of the Obama regime and out-of-control spending democrats have proven themselves to lack the maturity and fiscal self-control needed to control spending and the massive increasing national debt.

Again, if the deficit is out of control then why is it going down? I should add that 'out of control' is not direction dependent in so much that huge ever increasing profits could also be considered out of control. I could be wrong and would be happy to admit if I am but I have a deep feeling you are not talking about this.

The fact that we are here today to debate raising Americas debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. The failure of Obama!!!

If someone were to be thrown out of a plane without a parachute... It would be somewhat unkind to blame them half way down for not having one.

[beechguy]

Whoa, this is getting nuts. You guys do realize that part of the budget is both sides put stuff they refuse to take out and cannot agree on some taxes that make perfect sense and are very equitable, To try and cast total aversion to any one person or party in disingenuous or out of step with reality.

Actually, I don't blame Obama or the Democrats for everything bad. Also, I don't think it was any surprise that he hasn't gotten much cooperation from the Republicans the past couple of years. But his campaign billed him as the hope and change candidate, why didn't he try to accomplish more in 2009/2010?

Did he ask for anything meaningful and effective for the economy and jobs? No. Did he ask for anything to address the budget deficit and debt? No, if anything he dug the hole deeper. Did he address anything to correct the future of Social Security and Medicare problems? No. How about the Farm Bill, immigration? tax reform? No, couldn't be bothered, but he did give us a half assed health care law. Not much for almost 5 years in office.

Edited October 19, 2013 by beechguy

[F430murci]

Whoa, this is getting nuts. You guys do realize that part of the budget is both sides put stuff they refuse to take out and cannot agree on some taxes that make perfect sense and are very equitable, To try and cast total aversion to any one person or party in disingenuous or out of step with reality.

Actually, I don't blame Obama or the Democrats for everything bad. Also, I don't think it was any surprise that he hasn't gotten much cooperation from the Republicans the past couple of years. But his campaign billed him as the hope and change candidate, why didn't he try to accomplish more in 2009/2010?

Did he ask for anything meaningful and effective for the economy and jobs? No. Did he ask for anything to address the budget deficit and debt? No, if anything he dug the hole deeper. Did he address anything to correct the future of Social Security and Medicare problems? No. How about the Farm Bill, immigration? tax reform? No, couldn't be bothered, but he did give us a half assed health care law. Not much for almost 5 years in office.

I agree on most of this. He has been a let down to me in many fronts. He inherited an escalating debt problem that was nearly impossible to reign in considering our banks had failed, AIG had failed and companies like GM were failing which would have huge impact in supply line also.

Once some of the acute issues that could have taken both the US and world economy down were resolved, he has been largely ineffective. Some he brought on himself and some has been desperate measure by tea party and outliers to rally base in upcoming elections.

Unfortunately, I think the outliers want failure and turmoil at any costs for job security and to rally base. To me, that is broken part of our country now. Harm country for some equals job security later.

[Publicus]

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.................".

You would have far more credence if the Republicans could come out with a plan other than to vote against anything Obama has to say (only to put the Black man in his place) or come up with some new ideas other than the failed economic ideas of Milton Friedman. But then again Obama has done nothing to alter the criminal behavior on Wall Street and we certainly can't anticipate any change from the most scarlet woman of Wall Street, HIllary Clinton. The Clintons turned the Democratic party into the traditional pro-business Republican Party whilst the tea party idiots have turned the traditional Republican party into a group of neo-facist ideologues. Help us Obi-Wan Kenobi, your our only help. The dark side of the force, greed, is too strong for the feeble minds of Americans.

You have got a real confuse jumble in your head. First; Your your weak and shrill "only to put the Black man in his place" is the feeble lie of those that have nothing constructive to say. And the Tea Party are far from idiots. They are the adults in the room who are fighting for fiscal sanity in our federal government. The idiots are Obama and the endless debt-fueled spending democrats that are threatening our children's and grandchildren's future.

There is a dark side. It is the group of neo-fascist ideologues of the Obama regime and the Harry Reid democrats that put their crass political avarice ahead of the good of our nation. The dark side of the force is too strong for the feeble minds of Obama supporters and their "Blame Bush!" mantra. Don't forget; "The fact that we are here today to debate raising America's debt limit is a sign of leadership failure." Obama's leadership failure!!

We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted. Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.

The post is yet one more of the tea party written home schooling Civics lessons we keep seeing at this thread. And I'm tired of reading a lot of tea party written home schooling lessons at this thread, which is why I post now - not that the tea party home schooling lessons will ever stop. They surely will continue, but I have to say my piece about it.

Only the far right whackos who shut down the government and played around with the full faith and credit of the United States are obsessed about the national debt.

The far right continues to reject what almost everyone else has accepted, that Keynesian economics is true. Even Prez Richard Nixon said, "We're all Keynesians now."

Well, not all. The tea party far right still wants Herbert Hoover economics, the most disastrous economics in the history of the country.

Prez Obama had to spend in unprecedented amounts to stop the Great Recession becoming the Great Depression II, which is where the US was going like a runaway train.

It's necessary for the government to spend now and pay our way out of it later. The private sector was frozen by the Reagan-Bush economic and financial collapse of 2008. The private sector cannot compensate the tens of millions of Americans that it threw out of work. The private sector provides no social safety net for the entire society. By the very nature of the private sector being the private sector, there's nothing the private sector could do during or after the 2008 crash to mitigate the impact of its own greed on the tens of millions of ordinary Americans directly affected by the collapse.

There actually are people who don't get that reality. They instead would have the United States in a Great Depression II. So they keep filling the thread with tea party written home schooling Civics lessons.

B-o-r-I-n-g!

[hellodolly]

Baloo22 You say

"With all due respect what you are saying boils down to more made-up Blame Bush blather!! Close to the five year mark now. Exactly what year of the Obama era can we expect him or any of his regime to accept any responsibility for anything. We truly do need the adults in Washington D.C. to refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted.

And no matter how much made-up revisionist history you produce, realize that " Leadership means that the buck stops here " does not mean "Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

I was merely pointing put the bucket of shit Bush handed to Obama. I believe I mentioned that using your method rather than Obama's the States would have seen the worst depression in history and dragged the world down with them. I believe they are claiming responsibility for stopping the express train to destruction that they were given. They are excepting the fact that they have finally started a health system for all Americans. It needs work on but it is a start. You Republicans blew your chance in 94 when Clinton using his wife tried to help all Americans. Obama has showed you up for the money grubbing heartless phonies you are.

Thanks to Obama America has a chance at the future. Using your don't spend money just hoard it will lead no where. I wonder what The Republicans are going to say when the Democrats in the future tackle the interstate system. For sure the Republicans will be to busy counting money to realize there is a lot of old road work that needs redoing. It is going to be a long road back but give them the time and they can take it back to the glory years of the Clinton administration. You remember those days when Clinton had the states in great shape and the Republicans could not fault it so they attacked him on his sex life.

Sadly through 8 years of inept bungling it will take a long time to return to those glory years. But we now have the leadership.

I have said it before and I will say it again. Until the Republican Party realizes there is more to America than big business and rich people it will remain the laughing stock it is.

It is a shame that the Republicans can not think of the welfare of there fellow country men and work with the Democrats for a better America.

By the way your

"Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush, Blame Bush.."

Takes me back to my childhood when that is all we knew was just say it over and over and over again.

I don't think we are heartless, but we aren't liking the attitude of some of these people.http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?id=9287949 I suppose Walmart could have shut things down, but then people like you would be accusing them of being racist.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for programs that work properly.

For now, the biggest obstacle for the U.S. not to be a laughing stock, is the community organizer in the White House.

Would you care to share your idea on how to turn the recession around. Remember that it was handed to Obama. It was not his actions that started it. He did what had to be done to stop it. Unemployment is down and housing prices are no longer falling in fact they are going up in many places.

What would you have done to end it? that is the problem you Republicans have you can not do any thing to help end it because you are more interested in power than you are in Americans. You are in complete denial of your part in it. All you do is sit around and bitch about the measures that have been taken to end it. Given your way we would never come out of it.

If the Republicans would realize there are people involved that do not draw down the big bucks they do with the perks that go along with it they would stand a chance of helping. As it has been the Democrats have had to fight the Republicans every inch of the way to end the recession. What kind of patriotism is that start some thing and fight every inch of the way to stop the people from ending it.

Except that there are real people in America besides rich ones and big business and try to work with the Democrats. You will stand a much better chance of putting in changes when you are working with them for the betterment of the American people than you are getting fighting them just to retain power you don't really have.

Even McKane has come out and said the Republican party needs changing it is just a bunch of splinter groups. You can't even get along with yourselves.

I do not doubt for one second that more money was spent to get out of the recession than was needed. There was also more money spent to get into it than was needed. That is a fact in all Governments no matter who is ruling. But the facts are the job is done. You have a health care plan now that needs a great deal of work. It is many years late in coming but it is here. Work with the Democrats to improve it instead of trying to dump it. I know that is a novel idea but it will bring about better results and you won't look so heartless. The fact is you along with the Democrats will draw the wrath of the medical and insurance industries down on you but you will help the American people. Trust me the insurence companies will not go broke and the medical profession will not end up in soup lines.

As is now every time I hear the word Republican it takes me back to the days when I read Donald Duck comic books and Scrooge McDuck was diving into his piles of money and jewelry.

[samran]

Chuck, have you ever done a DCF in your life?

Nope, and don't intend to start now. I always left it up to my bean counters to do that sort of thing.

Why don't you give us your very own version?

Which one would you like me to start on? Defence? Medicare? Or Social security?

[SinglePot]

"We need adults in the Congress who will refuse to increase the debt ceiling until real and substantial spending reductions are enacted. Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

Who caused the recession?

Low income white people, Hispanics, Latinos, Blacks? ( am I allowed to us these terms without offending anybody. I hope so.)

Seems to me it was caused by a different sector of society.

Americans deserve better.

[boomerangutang]

Both parties spend too much. Reps promise tax reductions (Bush Sr's "read my lips..." or R.Reagan's "no new taxes") ...but then, as soon as they're elected, raise taxes as much or more than the Dems. Reps overspend at least as much as Dems. When have you ever heard of a Rep-sponsored initiative to curb overspending in Defense or Health Care or, for that matter, any other Fed program other than day-dare for infants?

The US needs a dynamic 3rd party, perhaps to take the place of the Republicans. Perhaps in 25 years, we'll see the Greens and the Dems as the 2 major parties, with remnants of the Rep. party at the fringes, representing the v. rich and other tax dodgers. I'd wager the Greens would roll up their sleeves and start really cleaning up overspending, but I don't know. Perhaps no one group has the cojones to do so. Special interests are just too darn strong.

[chuckd]

o

It was going down for some time I understand.

1374167_524458447647214_1086104093_n.jpg

There does seem to be a slight problem with your graph. The graph for 2009 shows to be in red which would indicate it was a Republican budget.

While the first year of a President's term in office is normally charged to his predecessor due to timings and the necessity to have a budget in place when the incoming President is sworn in...until the budget for 2009 that it.

The US government operated on a fiscal year with the 2009 fiscal year beginning on Ocdtober 1, 2008 and ending September 30, 2009. Therefore one would believe a budget had to be approved prior to Obama's arrival on the scene.

The predecessor presented his budget request to Congress prior to the start of the fiscal year with the following amounts estimated and requested:

Total revenue - $2.7 Trillion

Total expenditures - $3.107 Trillion

Estimated deficit - $407 Billion

This budget was NOT acted upon by the Democratic controlled Senate and House of Representatives and continuing resolutions (CRs) were used to fund the government beyond the 2008 budget year.

A budget was finally approved by both Houses of Congress in late February 2009 to include the unspent part of the TARP funds and the stimulus package desired by the current White House occupant, who signed it into law on March 11, 2009.

The budget for 2009 as finally approved (including all the pork from BOTH parties) looked like this:

Total (actual) revenue - $2.105 Trillion

Total (actual) expenditures - $3.518 Trillion

Estimated (actual) deficit - $1.413 Trillion

While I am certain the Democrats will dispute this post, it is what happened and can hardly be laid at the feet of the former President since he had nothing to do with the final outcome of his submission.

The 2009 budget deficit is squarely the responsibility of the Democrats in Congress and the current President.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_United_States_federal_budget

Edited October 20, 2013 by chuckd