Sony A7 and A7r

[Tywais]

I saw this mentioned in another topic and thought it worth it's own topic as it appears to be a pretty special camera. Full frame 24 (A7) or 36 (A7r) Mpixels and smallest of its' class.

Hands on 1st Impressions: The Sony A7, A7r and RX10

Why is this camera so important? Well, it is not for everyone of course but for me I have been wanting this for years for a few reasons. The A7r is a full frame 36MP sensor camera with an E- Mount. This means that not only can you shoot the new FE lenses (full frame E) made for this system, you can shoot Leica M lenses, Canon Lenses, Nikon Lenses and Sony A mount lenses (with adapters). You can mount E mount lenses and shoot in crop mode or FF mode with vignetting. The special thing though is the latest tech full frame sensor that will deliver the richness, depth, 3D bokeh and shallow DOF that many of us crave, but more importantly, there will now be MANY more of us able to enjoy Leica M lenses. From my 1st test using a Leica M 50 Summilux on the A7r, it should be quite special. Not sure how wide angle lenses will do, but a 50 and 35 1.4 did well so so far so good.

The Sony A7 and A7r are the worlds smallest and 1st full frame mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses besides the $7000 Leica M.

More here - Stevehuffphoto

[MJP]

I would, I'm tempted as Pentax seem unwilling to make the giant leap to FF.

But it's a Sony which means a great sensor destroyed by brutal noise reduction and other unwanted interference, probably limited manual control too.

Shall wait for the reviews.

[FracturedRabbit]

Presumably you would shoot RAW with a camera like this so noise reduction would not be an issue? Apparently it a D800 sensor modified to accommodate the shorter flange distance. Camera seems to have full manual control options, which it will need if people are going to use it for sticking an assortment of legacy lenses on it.

Hopefully this will at least wake up Canon and Nikon to do something similar (mirrorless full frame).

[MJP]

Presumably you would shoot RAW with a camera like this so noise reduction would not be an issue? Apparently it a D800 sensor modified to accommodate the shorter flange distance. Camera seems to have full manual control options, which it will need if people are going to use it for sticking an assortment of legacy lenses on it.

Hopefully this will at least wake up Canon and Nikon to do something similar (mirrorless full frame).

Hopefully it'll wake Pentax up to stick a full frame mirror box and sensor in the K-3 body.

[FracturedRabbit]

Perhaps Pentax need to do something different that knocking out DSLRs into the same market as Canikon? Fuji, Sony, Olympus and Panasonic have all done pretty well innovating in the mirrorless space; sticking a mirror box into a new model is not the future.

I found this view from Kirk Tuck to be quite interesting: http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2013/10/inflection-point-reached-death-watch.html

I have been playing with the new Olympus E-M1 over the last couple of days. Built like a tank, staggeringly configurable and competent, instant auto-focus and a big, bright EVF. Cameras like this and the Sony are the future.

[MJP]

Perhaps Pentax need to do something different that knocking out DSLRs into the same market as Canikon? Fuji, Sony, Olympus and Panasonic have all done pretty well innovating in the mirrorless space; sticking a mirror box into a new model is not the future.

I found this view from Kirk Tuck to be quite interesting: http://visualsciencelab.blogspot.com/2013/10/inflection-point-reached-death-watch.html

I have been playing with the new Olympus E-M1 over the last couple of days. Built like a tank, staggeringly configurable and competent, instant auto-focus and a big, bright EVF. Cameras like this and the Sony are the future.

Pentax make a great photographers camera without all that flip screen and other nonsense. Just a really solid machine that gets the best out of the sensor. Just wish the sensor was 35mm equivalent.

I saw that on your Flickr page, the E-M1. How do you find the size and handling?

[FracturedRabbit]

I own the E-M5 and it needs the optional grip to be comfortable (for my hand size). The E-M1 (which I don't own, yet) is slightly wider and has a built-in grip and is, for me, the perfect size. The E-M5 was extremely customisable; but the E-M1 takes it to another level. More control options on the body and a many new ways of setting the thing up; really impressive. Beautiful camera, hard to resist...

Fold-out screens can be useful. This shot was taken with the E-M5 placed down next to the road. I folded out the screen and set the camera so that it focused and took the shot when I touched the screen on the focus point. Would have been hard to get the shot without the fold out screen. Also useful if you want to shoot discretely on Beach Road in Pattaya, fold out the screen and pretend to be inspecting your navel!

P1270240 by pattayadays.com, on Flickr

[MJP]

I own the E-M5 and it needs the optional grip to be comfortable (for my hand size). The E-M1 (which I don't own, yet) is slightly wider and has a built-in grip and is, for me, the perfect size. The E-M5 was extremely customisable; but the E-M1 takes it to another level. More control options on the body and a many new ways of setting the thing up; really impressive. Beautiful camera, hard to resist...

Fold-out screens can be useful. This shot was taken with the E-M5 placed down next to the road. I folded out the screen and set the camera so that it focused and took the shot when I touched the screen on the focus point. Would have been hard to get the shot without the fold out screen. Also useful if you want to shoot discretely on Beach Road in Pattaya, fold out the screen and pretend to be inspecting your navel!

P1270240 by pattayadays.com, on Flickr

That image is crystal clear.

I need to seriously review where my money goes. I'm going to leave it 18 months to see how the technology develops before another red cent is spent.

[FracturedRabbit]

Trouble is, in eighteen months the next big thing will still be just around the corner! It will just be a different next big thing.

[MJP]

Trouble is, in eighteen months the next big thing will still be just around the corner! It will just be a different next big thing.

I think an old Super ME and a few rolls of Velvia 100 will be the in thing by then.

[FracturedRabbit]

That said, I do think that this first step from Sony is a little ragged; there will be a much more refined model in a year or so. Give it three years and there will probably be a decent selection of lenses to go with it. And by that time Canikon (and Pentax?) will have joined the fray.

[MJP]

That said, I do think that this first step from Sony is a little ragged; there will be a much more refined model in a year or so. Give it three years and there will probably be a decent selection of lenses to go with it. And by that time Canikon (and Pentax?) will have joined the fray.

I really hope so because taking pictures with a phone is bad enough, but taking photos with a PlayStation is simply a no-no.

I'm just don't like Sony cameras.

[fimgirl]

Inasmuch as I applaud the innovations in cameras that we are seeing these days, it's the never ending menu after menu choices provided for set up that I find off putting. One's always wondering which combination of a zillion choices is optimum. Invariably, by the time I've finished experimenting and optimising any new camera, the successor is launched with even more choices, and 95% of the setting I either don't need or don't understand. I just wish they'd keep it simple. All I need is to be able to set the aperture, shutter speed, white balance, ISO and meter the light. But, of course, this camera would never sell. The masses don't want to "learn" photography (as the dipstick at Apple recently announced), they want it all pre-programmed in camera. And when it goes wrong it's the cameras fault and time for a new one. And how many times do we see a new camera launched awash with errors and bugs and needing firmware updates from day one.

The enthusiasm for these new Sony's is ridiculous ( I initially joined the pack) but already the questions are being asked. And nobody has one yet!

Rant over, I'll stick with what I've got . LOL

(Caveat - until The M type 240 is available in Thailand)

reeray.smugmug.com

[sunshine51]

That said, I do think that this first step from Sony is a little ragged; there will be a much more refined model in a year or so. Give it three years and there will probably be a decent selection of lenses to go with it. And by that time Canikon (and Pentax?) will have joined the fray.

I really hope so because taking pictures with a phone is bad enough, but taking photos with a PlayStation is simply a no-no.

I'm just don't like Sony cameras.

I agree with you MJP about Sony cameras and Sony in general. Back at the turn of the century

I was based in Jakarta & bought a swivel head Cool Pix camera to play with. It was ok for pubs,

happy snaps but FA else. Worst thing about it was that awful blue to purple halo on contrasty

shots that even Photoshop 3xx & halo removing plugins at the time couldn't remove. I know

Sony has changed these days & it will be interesting to have a play with the A7r when I get

around to it...whenever that happens. Now...the Oly E-M1 is something I'm very interested in.

As I mentioned before I once had an Oly E-3 & loved it once I got used to the lenses however

I have big hands...that's why the missus has it these days. Olympus make a great camera &

they make great lenses....next time in either SGP or HKG I'll have a good look at the E-M1

and some lenses.

Ahhh...Canikon's...haven't heard that expression in a while! Seriously...I can't keep up with

Nikon's numbering system any more. In the old days it started out with the F, then went to

Photomic F, the workhorse F2, the weird F3, the lethal weapon F4, the F5 & the F6 the last

film camera (pro) Nikon made. Just below that lineup was the bottom end EM & the mid range

FM...labeled either Nikomat, Nikkormat or Nikon depending on where you bought them.

Not forgetting the semi pro F90 & F100.

Canon had their F-1 when Nikon had their F2 and this kinda made Nikon take notice that

things were changing. Then came the predecessor to the EOS Canons...the T-90, complete

with an Italian styled body (a famous Italian designer did the thing) and nowadays...I can no

longer keep up with Canikon model numbers! Heck...even Leica has joined the "confusing"

numbering fray by "introducing" the new M series....what! Leica has had the M series since

Christ was a private. There was the M3, the M4, the M5 etc...etc to todays M9. So now we

add the plain M...hah! Nice camera but come on...this is all becoming too confusing.

Way back in the late 60's & early 70's...in the surfing world...there was much controversy

over long boards, short boards, swallow tails, pin tails, egg tails etc...etc. Some of the

controversy became very political which led to surfers having nasty fistfights and damaging

each others boards & vehicles. This became such a big issue that Surfer Magazine wrote

many articles on the topic of "board wars" as it spread globally. Imagine that Global Surfboard

War...nasty stuff when one is just out trying to have some fun on the waves. Then some

author made a statement that changed the surfing world forever..."Ride what you like and

be out having fun". The board & wave wars suddenly went quiet...the cease fire or truce

or peace is still in effect today.

I reckon that analogy with a couple words changed to fit photography and in the confusing

world of digital photography today...fit's nicely...perhaps...Use what you like & be out having

fun?

A certain Nikon forum a couple years ago ran a contest concerning the upcoming launch

of the "secretive" D4...this was my entry into the contest. Received an honourable mention

and a bunch of emoticon laughs. But if Nikon ever made the thing I'd definitely buy one...hah!

Keep Shooting Folks & Have a Great Weekend

[MJP]

I always thought surfing was about peace and love and avoiding sharks?

[sunshine51]

I always thought surfing was about peace and love and avoiding sharks?

Yeah it was...then the surfnazi's grew into an organisation & for a while peace,

love & shark avoidance went out the window. It started in Southern California

then went global as "locals" protected their surf spots from invaders (non

locals) then it got really messy with even some deaths from stabbings. I was

in Vietnam when this happened & couldn't believe what I read in Surfer

Magazine...but it was happening. Then those words were published and

the surfnazi's eventually surrendered because a few Viet vets returned home

and surfed and helped to bring peace & order to the land...Hah! And folks

gust got plain tired of fighting and returned to the waves...regardless of

what type of surfboard they rode.

[fimgirl]

Reality check on the A7

http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224

reeray.smugmug.com

Edited October 20, 2013 by fimgirl

[MJP]

Reality check on the A7

http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224

reeray.smugmug.com

Yup! It's a Sony. The Oly M4/3 is much more interesting.

However, I have found this, price is good . . . .

http://www.eep.co.th/eeppromotionptk30detail001.html

[Dogmatix]

I have just looked at Ron Sheffler's images with the A7. Vignetting is very pronounced wide open on RF wide angle lenses but he hasn't yet posted tests of the A7R which is said to have serious colour caste as well. Sony is supposed to be coming out with app that applies in camera fixes to 3rd party manual lenses that might fix this. After all that is exactly what happens in Leica camera bodies which produce terrible vignetting without the fix on Leica WA lenses, plus Leica offers no profiles for other mfg's lenses.

I am a little disappointed that some of the better features of the A7 have been left our out the A7R, e.g. electronic shutter with ability to switch off front shutter to shorten the sound, phase detect AF.

The low pass filter in the A7 is very mild and doesn't do much to reduce moire. So there is neither much downside nor much benefit from its omission in the A7R.

If you can live with the longer shutter sound, slower AF in good light and colour cast with RF WA lenses which also vignette a lot wide open with the A7 and bigger files you may as well get the higher resolution of the A7R, if money is no object, particularly for use of high resolution lenses like the Zeiss, Leica and some of the Voighlander M mount lenses plus the Sony Zeiss lenses. If you want to use only the kit zoom and other non-Zeiss Sony lenses, the A7 is a better bet since those lenses would be outresolved by the sensor of the A7R.

Sony might come out with a new model that adds in the electronic shutter and phase detect AF to the A7R at the same price as the current A7R. It makes no sense to leave the top features off the top model, which can eventually be exploited by competitors, and was probably done to keep the initial price down.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Dogmatix

[FracturedRabbit]

Pretty much reflects Steve Huff review that he has just published; too much confusion over the two models, neither of which is ideal: http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/11/29/the-sony-a7-and-a7r-camera-review-by-steve-huff/

[fimgirl]

Looks as if Sony have joined the megapixel race

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-54-megapixel-2/

Edited December 4, 2013 by fimgirl

[sunshine51]

Looks as if Sony have joined the megapixel race

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr4-54-megapixel-2/

Knowing Sony Corp....if this thing actually does come to fruition I bet

one could hire the HST for a couple days instead of buying this!

[Dogmatix]

So now what do we do now? Give up trying to decide between A7 and A7R and wait till 2015-16 for the 54 megapixel monster?

I agree with Huff that Sony should have made life easier with a single model priced somewhere in between the A7 and A7R. Some people may never get round to deciding and just wait another year for the next iteration. My issues with the A7R now boil down to the noisier shutter and the magenta colour shift on WA lenses like CV 15mm and 21mm M mount lenses. I will wait for more tests on that. I guess a single action (quieter) electronic shutter wasn't an option for the A7R because supporting the electronic shutter action takes some space in each pixel and the are 67% of the size in the A7R vs the A7. The next models might respond to the shutter sound criticisms and introduce an electronic shutter with a silent option, a candid photographer's dream.

[sunshine51]

The next camera I buy...hah....MUST have two items.

1. Silent electronic shutter & mirrorless.

2. Synthetic aperture I can set via dial or be able to

adjust DOF in post.

3. Be no larger than the size of my current M9 and

use M mount lenses.

4. Made out of Stromboneium...the strongest & lightest

metal in the known universe...a sexy blue-grey colour.

Oh!...that's more than two items?! Sorry, just being selfish.

[Dogmatix]

You forgot to throw in a high res EVF Sunshine. With Leica M you have to pay extra to get a separate Panasonic EVF but Leica fans don't care as they are wedded to the 1930s RF technology. I quite like it on my M3 but after using mirrorless can't get used to not being able to preview DOF. I admit that RF can be faster and more accurate for MF than focus peaking or relying on visual focus but it adds cost, bulk and weight to Leica bodies. I wonder when they will dare ditch it on a high end body but I think they will always be behind Sony et all in terms of electronics, so they should maybe hang on to their niche as long as they can maintain the mystique of RF + manual lenses.

[sunshine51]

@Dogmatix...

I was gonna add the EVF but heck...then I'll be perceived as being too selfish!

You know...most of the stuff inside the digital cameras we use today has it's

origins in the military & space industry. When they invent new stuff we get the

hand me downs say about...20 years later...or so. Synthetic apertures have been

used in all sorts of imaging systems: space (read KH11 & 12 Intel Sats), radar &

lidar imaging, sonar for underwater stuff...the list is quite long & have been around

for at least 3 decades. Hi Res EVF's have been around to the civi market since the

late 80's (mono only though) on broadcast TV cameras. Electronic shutters?....

Been around for ages in military usage & many video cameras have that function

built in these days....example....shooting TV screens & monitors without getting the

thick "scan line" frozen in the middle or wherever it ends up at when you shoot &

playback video.

Hell I can pull a frame from my GFCam with a good frame grabbing card (Matrox is

good) and when "printed" it looks just like it came from a still camera. The technology

IS in place already but it seems that still camera makers only keep bringing out

new models that are really nothing more than a different gadget. To me anyway.

I mean...try to keep up with your favourite makers model numbers...Hah!

However...not much has changed internally. I reckon it's kinda like a couple old

rednecks (I'm one!)...going..."Hey let's stick this in here an see what happens"

Crikey...for the $$$$ we must pay...let's see some real innovation instead of

figiting with sensor sizes and crap nobody really wants...like another model

number. And when the manufacturer makes it...get it right the first time.

[Dogmatix]

Had another look at Scheffler's tests on a pre-production A7 http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?p=224 looking at the Sony FE lenses this time. I was surprised that they show marked vignetting, including the Sony Zeiss 50mm f1.8 wide open and one stop down. Perhaps, unlike Leica, they didn't include any in camera correction for their own lenses or maybe Scheffler's tests were somehow too harsh, as others have not complained about the 50mm f1.8.

[Genericnic]

I use a D800 with lots of fast glass for my FF but I travel a lot and with the weight and carry-on restrictions for flying these days I wanted something smaller. After a lot of reading and some hands-on, it came down to either a Sony A7r or an Olympus OM-D E-M1. In the end, the E-M1 won out for a number of reasons.

First was lens availability without the need for an adapter. I got the kit that has the M.Zuiko Pro 12-40 f/2.8 as the kit lens. Was well worth the investment. In addition, you can get mFT lenses that range from 14 to 600mm all in native mFT format. And, of course, there are the 3 wonderful Voigtlander prime 0.95 mFT lenses that are available. For the A7r, the native lenses are, as Sony says, coming soon. Maybe in a year or two I'll go back and look at a Sony for a FF camera but I'm quite happy with the E-M1.

Second, obviously there is the size and weight issue. The E-M1 with the 12-40 weighs less than the Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 lens alone and only occupies about the same volume of space. As for weight difference and size it was a bit of a draw between the A7r and the E-M1.

Third, because of the travel involved and shooting in lots of different climate conditions, the E-M1 was a clear winner due to the weather sealing.

A last consideration, while not a deal breaker one that I really liked, was the fact that the E-M1's shutter is considerably quieter than the A7r. It is closer to the sound of a Leica. I would feel comfortable shooting at a funeral with it, unlike my D800.

As for image quality, the E-M1 is living up to its hype. You do know, don't you, that National Geo will accept images from 6MP up? I thin the E-M1's image quality would work for Nat Geo just fine.

So, that said, I will may (or may not) keep my D800 and Nikon glass for studio or non travel shooting but I think its days on the road may be passed.

David

[Dogmatix]

With the D800 you already have virtually the same sensor, made by Sony, as in the Sony A7R.

[FracturedRabbit]

I use a D800 with lots of fast glass for my FF but I travel a lot and with the weight and carry-on restrictions for flying these days I wanted something smaller. After a lot of reading and some hands-on, it came down to either a Sony A7r or an Olympus OM-D E-M1. In the end, the E-M1 won out for a number of reasons.

First was lens availability without the need for an adapter. I got the kit that has the M.Zuiko Pro 12-40 f/2.8 as the kit lens. Was well worth the investment. In addition, you can get mFT lenses that range from 14 to 600mm all in native mFT format. And, of course, there are the 3 wonderful Voigtlander prime 0.95 mFT lenses that are available. For the A7r, the native lenses are, as Sony says, coming soon. Maybe in a year or two I'll go back and look at a Sony for a FF camera but I'm quite happy with the E-M1.

Second, obviously there is the size and weight issue. The E-M1 with the 12-40 weighs less than the Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 lens alone and only occupies about the same volume of space. As for weight difference and size it was a bit of a draw between the A7r and the E-M1.

Third, because of the travel involved and shooting in lots of different climate conditions, the E-M1 was a clear winner due to the weather sealing.

A last consideration, while not a deal breaker one that I really liked, was the fact that the E-M1's shutter is considerably quieter than the A7r. It is closer to the sound of a Leica. I would feel comfortable shooting at a funeral with it, unlike my D800.

As for image quality, the E-M1 is living up to its hype. You do know, don't you, that National Geo will accept images from 6MP up? I thin the E-M1's image quality would work for Nat Geo just fine.

So, that said, I will may (or may not) keep my D800 and Nikon glass for studio or non travel shooting but I think its days on the road may be passed.

David

Good choice sir! It's a fine camera and the 12-40mm sits on it very well. A very pleasing companion to that setup might be the 75mm F1.8, one of the best lenses I have ever owned from any system. Did a little review of it here: http://www.microfourthirds.info/2013/02/olympus-75mm-f1-8-review/

Edited December 16, 2013 by Tywais
Fixed quote