Septic Tank Pump Out

[curtklay]

I live in a Northern Province, and the standard for a septic tank is nothing more than concrete rings sunk in the ground with no bottom. My understanding is the waste gets digested by bacteria/enzymes, turns to liquid, and then seeps into the ground. It sounds environmentally horrific, but that's the way they do it.

I have 3 tanks; 1 for 2 toilets, 1 for the showers, and 1 for the kitchen. After 4 years, the toilet "septank" was full. I called the guy who pumps them out, and he came out and pumped all 3 tanks even though the other 2 were not full. OK, so far. 2 weeks later, the toilets would'nt flush. I took the top off the tank, and it was full to the brim. The other tanks were very low. I called the guy out again, and he pumped out the toilet tank again. I asked him why it was full after only 2 weeks, but all I got was a blank stare. 4 days after the second pump out, the tank was at least 50% full. This didn't seem right, but I have no knowledge of how these things work. I added some of the "waste digester" they sell at Homepro, thinking that maybe the tank needed a "recharge". I have been measuring the level in the tank daily with a long stick for the past week, and while it's not full, it is about 75% full, and slowly rising. I noticed at the second pump out, that there was a heavy layer of sludge at the bottom that was not pumped out, and I'm wondering if that is blocking the drainage. I suspect he is only pumping the liquid out. When I put the measuring stick in the tank, I can feel a layer of muck at least a foot deep before I hit hard ground.

So, my question is: I know there are 3 layers to this so called system; sludge at the bottom, water in the middle, and scum at the top, but when they pump it out, should they be pumping out the sludge or not? The guy claims he's doing it correctly, but our neighbors are complaining about the same problem, that their tank fills up much more quickly after this guy does his job. It is only the toilet septank that is filling so fast; the kitchen and shower tanks look like they are normal, so I am ruling out rain and groundwater levels causing the problem. Are these things supposed to operate with a certain level of fullness? That doesn't seem logical.

I am stumped as to how it would take 4 years to fill up initially, then only 2 weeks after being pumped out. Something ain't right. Any information or advice from those who have gone before me will be greatly appreciated. I have searched the forums, but can't find a definitive answer.

[Naam]

your theory how a septic system is supposed to work is wrong. correct is that according your description you don't have a septic system but the often installed environment polluting "Thai crap" system. for your information a short and simple description:

a properly designed system does not need any pumping ever. it consists of a tank divided into two or three chambers and a drain field (or drainage area).

bacteria a breaking down the solids the first chamber which then slowly drain into the next chamber and then out to the drainage area (assuming that area and a slope exist).

note: the chambers of a septic tank are usually always full to the brim respectively till the point where the liquid overflows into the next chamber or into the drainage area.

use the Thaivisa search function and you will find several threads or google "septic tanks / systems" to find more details. if you are too lazy to search click on the link below

http://us.wow.com/search?s_pt=aolsem&s_it=aolsem&s_chn=9&q=what%20is%20septic%20tanks

Edited October 19, 2013 by Naam

[curtklay]

Well, thanks for the reply. However I'm not seeking a tutorial on how real septic systems work. I'm trying to find out what's wrong with my "Thai crap system".

[Ginkas]

As stated, you do not have a Septic Tank.

What you have is a Cesspit.

Google cesspit and you will get more information, probably more than you want!

[Crossy]

Well, thanks for the reply. However I'm not seeking a tutorial on how real septic systems work. I'm trying to find out what's wrong with my "Thai crap system".

The bottom soak area where the partially (at best) treated effluent permeates into the ground water supply (do you have a well or bore hole?) is probably bunged up with solid waste which your pump chap is not removing..

The fix?

The Thai way, if pumping the sludge from the bottom doesn't fix it, dig another next to it.

The proper way, install one of the prefabricated septic tanks and a decent drain field for a permanent fix.

[curtklay]

Ginkas:

Thanks for the proper terminology (cesspit). That did lead me to some helpful information. What puzzles me is what the normal level of sewage is supposed to be. When they describe real septic tanks, they say they will always look nearly full; that's how they work. As long as the level is below the inlet pipe, all is OK. But is it the same with a cesspit? Before the first pump out, I never looked into the pit to see what a normal level is. My level is still below the inlet, but seems to be rising. I know if it does rise to the inlet pipe, the toilets will stop flushing, and I'll have to call the pump guy again. Do people just wait until that happens before taking some action? It doesn't seem right since the other 2 tanks are filling much more slowly. They are only getting drain water from the showers and kitchen, but the difference in levels seems extreme.

Crossy:

Thanks also for your reply. I do have a well, but it is on the opposite side of the property (thank God).

I concur with you that my pump guy is not removing the bottom layer of sludge, and the hole is plugged up. But again, I don't know what a "normal" working level is supposed to be, or how quickly the thing should be draining. I can say that it appears to be working...there is no horrific odor, the top layer is green scum, liquid below, sludge on the bottom, and hard ground below that, from what I can tell with my long stick. So if the level stays below the inlet pipe, does one assume everything is good? It seems wrong to me, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's the "Thai way". (Don't take any corrective measures until the turds are floating through your living room).

Edited October 20, 2013 by curtklay

[Beardog]

If you do not have an adequate drainage (leech field) as our esteem Naam has said that is mostly your problem. Your tank for 2-6 people using the toilets needs to be a MINIMUM of 2/3rds of a meter wide 7 meters long & 1 meter deep. That is the quintessential portion that makes a septic system a septic system appose to a cesspit that has no soak away. Now the dimensions can be in a circle - rectangular maze or straight down or even another set of tanks that fulfill the cubic meters of the dimensions. It is not hard to fix yours but it will never be a septic system unless you have a drainage field in the system. You can use rings or a DOS tank (or any other companies tank) they are the same except the tanks are more convenient. Our neighbor has a cesspit & thinks it is a septic system. Boy is he in for yet another rude surprise!

[canopy]

What puzzles me is what the normal level of sewage is supposed to be

A cesspit performs virtually no waste treatment so the level is not important. Think of a cesspit as a storage container that needs pumped out frequently and pollutes the ground water with concentrated waste seeping out the bottom. So all you do is pray the water leaches into the ground quickly and if it doesn't then it's time to pump again.

As stated, the best fix is to switch to a septic tank and drain field. I suspect it will be difficult to find someone to do it because Thai's typically know nothing about how to size a septic tank or make a drain field and if they do, they may not know enough and botch the job. For instance, a drain field needs the proper type of rock, set at the proper depth, with an appropriate cover, pipes pitched appropriately, correctly perforated pipe, and many, many other aspects to work correctly. Best to read up on how to make a good system online then hire someone to do it and make sure they follow procedures that will result in a working system.

Edited October 20, 2013 by canopy

[Naam]

I do have a well, but it is on the opposite side of the property (thank God).

distance doesn't mean anything except if your property is 50 rai.

[JaiLai]

What's the concern of this "crap / waste" being absorbed by the ground?

If a well is say 30m to the water level how could this waste possibly effect the water quality?

Or am i missing something here?

[Naam]

What's the concern of this "crap / waste" being absorbed by the ground?

If a well is say 30m to the water level how could this waste possibly effect the water quality?

Or am i missing something here?

in theory the crap can waste wells located kilometers away. not only because subterraneous ground water flows exist but also because a well bore is much deeper than any septic tank.

[JaiLai]

What's the concern of this "crap / waste" being absorbed by the ground?

If a well is say 30m to the water level how could this waste possibly effect the water quality?

Or am i missing something here?

in theory the crap can waste wells located kilometers away. not only because subterraneous ground water flows exist but also because a well bore is much deeper than any septic tank.

How do you know the waste will make it to the water table and not get absorbed by the formation above it?

With the timelines given and depths to reach the water tables should we really be concerned - I'm not.

What about all the other waste that's getting dumped ( pardon the pun ) all over the place, I'd be pretty sure a lot of that is more harmful than my number 2's.

[Crossy]

There is no guarantee that the effluent will, or will not enter the ground water, you have to assume that it will.

Contamination of ground water by human waste is a huge issue in the developing world, people die!

Your No2s may not affect you now, they may well affect others in future, just as others' waste may affect your well.

It is of course entirely up to you what you do, the system you have is not illegal. But since it is not functioning correctly why not replace it with a system that does function reliably and does not pollute.

[canopy]

A true septic system is just so much better for the groundwater. First you get good primary waste treatment in the septic tank itself, especially so if you choose one big enough and with multiple chambers. Then you get an astonishing additional 40% secondary treatment in the drain field biologically in the gravel and by plantings pulling the nitrogen out. And finally this twice treated waste water is dispersed over a large area somewhat close to the surface.

Now compare that to a cesspit where you have raw, untreated sewage acutely seeping into the ground at one pinpoint spot several meters deep in the earth. You just could never do that in developed countries. And then there are the waste pumping trucks trolling around looking for their next victim. It is a sad system all around.

[wayned]

When the pumper truck comes to our village and pumps the Thai tanks, especially inn rainy season, he drives down the road about 200 meters past my house and empties it into the corn or sugar cane fields. So much for a leech field.

[JaiLai]

There is no guarantee that the effluent will, or will not enter the ground water, you have to assume that it will.

Contamination of ground water by human waste is a huge issue in the developing world, people die!

Your No2s may not affect you now, they may well affect others in future, just as others' waste may affect your well.

It is of course entirely up to you what you do, the system you have is not illegal. But since it is not functioning correctly why not replace it with a system that does function reliably and does not pollute.

I would say my system is functioning correctly, waste goes into the concrete rings about 1.5m deep and about 1m diameter, never been pumped out.

2 things suprise me:

1 - there is never a bad smell ( vented about 2 m above ground level )

2 - it's never had any sort of fluid / waste level worth mentioning.

Like you say it's not illegal and with 80-90% of Thais ( random number ) using the concrete rings what's the point changing if no issues?

As the poster below states somewhere down the line it's all just dumped anyway.

I have seen companies go the great expense to have all sorts of fluid / waste taken away without really knowing how its disposed of at the end. ( most of the time dumped somewhere secluded )

[Crossy]

JaiLai, functionality comment was really aimed at our OP who's system is definitely not working correctly.

Yours seems to be doing the job as well as can be expected.

[curtklay]

I appreciate everyone’s replies. Unfortunately, I’m no closer to an answer, although I now know more about septanks and cesspits than I ever wanted to.

Now for a short rant:

To everyone who is advising me to tear out the cesspit, and install a “proper septic system”, I agree with you 100% in theory and philosophy. But even if I had the room (which I don’t) why should I go to the expense and effort to do “the right thing” when all the Thais around me continue to pollute the air, the water, and the earth. They put plastic bags inside of more plastic bags, litter the streets with trash, cut down trees the size of toothpicks, burn their debris until you can’t see through the smoke for months, and a perfect example of how they treat sewage is clearly shown in Wayned’s comment. When we had the house built, the plan called for a “septic tank”. Instead they put in a “Thai craphole”, and pocketed the difference. That’s only one of the ways they took advantage of us while we weren't here. Trying to be responsible good guys just gets us labeled as “stupid farangs”.

If you guys want to set the right example, be my guest. I know when I’m beaten…all I want is a working craphole. This is not the USA or UK, and it’s shocking just how primitive Thailand really is. They don’t give a sh*t (pun intended) so why should I?

OK boys…bring it on!

[Crossy]

You can get a different pump truck to actually remove the sludge rather than just the water.

It may work after that, but it's also likely that what drain path there was via the bottom of the pit is bunged up at least partially (toilet paper is a prime suspect), and the problem will return in a greater or lesser period.

[wayned]

I think that your summation of the situation is spot on! We have come to live in a foreign country and no matter how much we bitch and complain we are not going to change things! We came here because we wanted to. We were not forced to come hear and we can leave anytime that we want if the situation becomes unbearable. I remember a Morgan Freeman line from the movie "Shawshank Redemption" in the early 1990's where he and his friend were in prison.

"GET BUSY LIVING OR GET BUSY DYING"

Just arrange with the pumper guy to pump your "cesspit" on a regular basis and get on with your life!

[harrry]

I do have a well, but it is on the opposite side of the property (thank God).

distance doesn't mean anything except if your property is 50 rai.

I understand the WHO had a requirement in develoing countries for wells and drinking water to be more than 12 metres from the tank. I believe hey considered that that was the distance that earth bacterior could satisfactorily work on the bacteria in the waste though I understand a couple of virii needed a larger distance.

[canopy]

Even if you don't care about the environment remember a real septic system is designed to go many years with no pumping whatsoever. It's not a waste container like the Thai style, instead it's doing a good job treating and eliminating waste with very good drainage all along. It is mind boggling to see the standard is a stone age pit in lieu of such an elegant system. I think the problems with this approach is it costs more which makes it dead in the water and secondly there are a lot of simple steps that must be followed precisely to get it right and as anyone who has built can attest, Thai workers aren't good at following other peoples instructions precisely.

For completeness there is ultra cheap and simple solution to your pumping woes. Use a composting toilet. There is a big misconception about them, but rest assured today's composting toilets produce no smell, you don't see other peoples waste, and do not attract flies.

As far as your rant it just rings more truth to what I have come to observe: (1) do not live close to another Thai household--the closer you get the more problems, (2) don't do things the Thai way because again, more problems and I am the sort of person who thinks in terms of do it once, do it right instead of constantly needing to patch up things that never look or work quite right.

[johnnynmonic]

This happened to me last year. Solution? Dig another, bigger circumference cesspool nearby and tie it into the failed system. Should last another few decades.

Sent from my RM-914_apac_thailand_203 using Tapatalk

[Beardog]

I appreciate everyone’s replies. Unfortunately, I’m no closer to an answer, although I now know more about septanks and cesspits than I ever wanted to.

Now for a short rant:

To everyone who is advising me to tear out the cesspit, and install a “proper septic system”, I agree with you 100% in theory and philosophy. But even if I had the room (which I don’t) why should I go to the expense and effort to do “the right thing” when all the Thais around me continue to pollute the air, the water, and the earth. They put plastic bags inside of more plastic bags, litter the streets with trash, cut down trees the size of toothpicks, burn their debris until you can’t see through the smoke for months, and a perfect example of how they treat sewage is clearly shown in Wayned’s comment. When we had the house built, the plan called for a “septic tank”. Instead they put in a “Thai craphole”, and pocketed the difference. That’s only one of the ways they took advantage of us while we weren't here. Trying to be responsible good guys just gets us labeled as “stupid farangs”.

If you guys want to set the right example, be my guest. I know when I’m beaten…all I want is a working craphole. This is not the USA or UK, and it’s shocking just how primitive Thailand really is. They don’t give a sh*t (pun intended) so why should I?

OK boys…bring it on!

You know if you have the right amount of room you can covert your present system into a septic system by simply adding a drainage field into the equation. You don't need to accept your beaten on this one. Make the drain field & then join the stinky end last. If you provide the particulars of your tank & amount of space you have for the drainage field. I & others will give you a plan on how to proceed on putting in your system. Pictures would help also! Edit spelling

Edited October 24, 2013 by Beardog

[curtklay]

Thanks again to everyone. I really do appreciate your taking the time to reply.

My course of action will be to find a more dilligent pumper guy, make sure he pumps out the sludge thoroughly and hoses down the walls and floor. Neighbors have also said they throw a bag of sodium hydroxide into the bottom of the pit to clear any remaining blockage.

After that, we shall see.

Edited October 24, 2013 by curtklay

[bankruatsteve]

Maybe some NaOH in a stuck drain is a good idea, and maybe at the bottom of a cesspit (?) but definitely NOT good for septic systems.

[sirineou]

Originally when your system was build , the water portion of your sewage permeated thorough the open bottom of your pit , now after years of use, heavy material has settled to the bottom of the pit and has created an impermeable barrier between your liquids and the ground. Removing that settled material from the bottom of your pit tank could restore the ground permeability for a time .

this is what I would do in conjunction to removing the sludge that has collected at the bottom of your pit.

At a water level below the incoming pipe, but below the scum that floats to the top,so that only water of the tank most of the time would escape, I would drill a hole in your tank so that the water would drain out of your tank before it reaches your incoming pipe and backs up in to the house or overflows in your yard, and connect a overflow pipe.

if you had the space... a leach field would be the best solution and easy to construct, in such manner not only would you spread the area where the water permeates in to the ground but you would gain benefit from evaporation.

But unfortunately many of us don't have the space for a leach-field ,

in such case an additional concrete ring tank, next or near the original tank, with spacers between the rings to allow the overflow water to permeate from the sides in addition to the bottom , would be in my opinion a relatively easy, cost effective, long term solution.

PS: I apologize if some one has already offered this solution, I did not have time to read all the responses

(typo edit)

Edited October 25, 2013 by sirineou

[canopy]

An overflow pipe in the yard is a terrible idea. Think about the stench coming out and the mosquitoes. Pouring human waste in the yard is a health hazard and disgusting and probably illegal even in Thailand. Putting a drain field on a cesspit overflow is also a terrible idea because it will be plugged up quickly unlike a septic outlet. It always amazes me that even in the internet age where good answers are a click away that people with no knowledge feel the need to dream up something that doesn't work and suggest it to the community.

[Naam]

An overflow pipe in the yard is a terrible idea. Think about the stench coming out and the mosquitoes. Pouring human waste in the yard is a health hazard and disgusting and probably illegal even in Thailand. Putting a drain field on a cesspit overflow is also a terrible idea because it will be plugged up quickly unlike a septic outlet. It always amazes me that even in the internet age where good answers are a click away that people with no knowledge feel the need to dream up something that doesn't work and suggest it to the community.

people, like you, who have not the slightest idea about septic systems should sit down in a dark corner and wait till the urge posting rubbish disappears.

[kannot]

Photos help heres mine ( two) note sealed first pit ie bitumen paint on concrete rings and sealed bottom, surrounding area full of small stones to help the water drain away etc etc