Where To Perforate Leather

[Hili]

You seemed to have missed my point by a mile, I have never argued that leather is not a great protector in the case of an accident, indeed I have repeatedly accepted that fact in my postings. I am annoyed that the designers have neglected the Thai along with other similar markets, forcing me to ride unprotected through pure discomfort, save for gloves and a helmet. Counter-productive if I lose concentration or pass out due to heat exhaustion, enveloped in my safety gear, which is my main point.

It is not just me, my Thai wife refuses to buy any of the leather gear I have proposed, saying she will "fry in it." You have correctly stated that there are textiles that offer the same protection, so where are they? .....Answer nowhere, the dealers here just import western stuff, or, as Thais like to do, copy.

You are also totally correct about western gear being properly tested, however, the CE labelling means virtually nothing, merely that the manufacturers declare that "it is fit for purpose". Ask any Chinese company and they will so it on for you for 2 cents extra.

I will bow out of this now and return when I found (or designed) something practical, perhaps a motor-cross skeleton jacket.

You dont get it isnt it? You seem to follow stupid prejudices or excuses from thais over your own safety? Well that's not really clever. If you dont like "black" leather than go for something else there are many options and if you start to search you will find them. A good quality mesh jacket with certified protectors is still better than nothing isnt it? But if you still worry about sweating than maybe stop riding motorcycle and sit into a airconed monkeycage.

I could mentioned plenty shops which are carriying quality safety gear but you should open your horizont a little by searching on your own.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Hili

[ll2]

 

Last weekend I went to the Khon Kaen bike week (show), loads of Thai guys wearing black leather and that was the only thing being worn and being sold. It was mostly Harley gear and that's the point, they want to copy the west and on a cool evening out came the black leathers, mostly waistcoats, I might add. But they don't wear them for riding, or at least I have seldom seen them, and only farangs then. They don't wear helmets either, merely carry them around in case they need to enter the city centre.

 

Perhaps this is the wrong topic to raise this point, but this climate requires something that is appropriate and black leather ain't it. Back on topic, I think that you will be disappointed if you punch holes in your nice jacket, so you had better make a top job or the jacket will be trash.

 

After 4 years of riding here without body protection, we would dearly love to find something suitable and with a winter trip to the hills planned we may have to go for leathers. What we wear for the other 10 months is the problem and in my view this isn't the answer. I would add that my riding style is a little casual compared with some of you, so wind speed and it's cooling effect is going to be less, along with a need for body protection. ......Famous last words.

 

If you paid more than £100 for the coat, I would get it done professionally, after all labour cost are low here.

 

 

Your example of the 'Thai guys in black leather' has nothing to do with protection- it's about fashion and has nothing to do with safety concerns- they don't even wear helmets, so what do they care about proper riding gear?  My leather gear (black or otherwise) offers the best possible protection if I have an accident- I could care less about 'fashion'.

 

You've posted on threads that have had not only good recommendations for leather protective gear, but textile and mesh gear as well- this gear has been tried-and-tested by people who have many years of riding in Thailand in their motorcycling lives, and yet you've chosen to denigrate what they've had to say based on nothing but your assumptions and preconceptions (which mean nothing in the face of actual, real-world experience).  Your childish 'It's black so it's bad' attitude is not only annoying, but flat-out wrong.  Leather is the single best material for motorcycle protective gear- yes, sometimes it gets too hot for it in Thailand and it's not the ideal choice for every riding scenario, but I'll push my tolerances to the limit for better protection.

 

You have chosen to foolishly ride without ptotection for years, and now you lament the lack of options- if you look at some other threads, there are a few textile jackets and pants that have been mentioned that would perfectly suit your needs, in colors you'll find acceptable.  You'll need to spend at least 30K if you want to do it right (and more than that if you want the best gear)- jacket, pants, helmet, gloves, and footwear- that means name-brand CE-rated gear, not cheap Chinese crap that will fall apart the second it touches the pavement.

 

You seemed to have missed my point by a mile, I have never argued that leather is not a great protector in the case of an accident, indeed I have repeatedly accepted that fact in my postings. I am annoyed that the designers have neglected the Thai along with other similar markets, forcing me to ride unprotected through pure discomfort, save for gloves and a helmet. Counter-productive if I lose concentration or pass out due to heat exhaustion, enveloped in my safety gear, which is my main point.

 

It is not just me, my Thai wife refuses to buy any of the leather gear I have proposed, saying she will "fry in it." You have correctly stated that there are textiles that offer the same protection, so where are they? .....Answer nowhere, the dealers here just import western stuff, or, as Thais like to do, copy.

 

You are also totally correct about western gear being properly tested, however, the CE labelling means virtually nothing, merely that the manufacturers declare that "it is fit for purpose". Ask any Chinese company and they will so it on for you for 2 cents extra.

 

I will bow out of this now and return when I found (or designed) something practical, perhaps a motor-cross skeleton jacket.

What about a tin foil jacket and helmet for you and for your gf allen?

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[RubberSideDown]

You didn't have a relevant point as far as safety gear goes- there was nothing to miss- your example of HD riders dressing up to play a part means nothing.

CE-ratings on quality brands are indeed tested and conform to the proper safety standard- Dainese and Alpinestars (and other respected manufacturers) do not simply 'sew on a label'. You are forcing yourself to ride without protection (do you really think designers have neglected the lucrative American summer riding season as far as gear goes?)- you can't blame the manufacturers for your foolishness- those of us who wear proper gear seem to get along just fine in LOS. You go for cheap Chinese copies- well, then, you might someday get what you've been asking for (though I hope not- I hate to see any riders go down, even the squids)- proper rated armor, correct double- and triple-stiching, correctly-place perforation, quality matyerials- you don't get any of this for Chinese copies of real gear.

BTW- the 'moto-cross skeleton jacket' you're going to design already exists- check out the Icon Stryker Rig (I've got one) or the Alpinestars Bionic Jacket- both offer proper armor surrounded by thin mesh, however they both give up abrasion resistance in favor of impact protection. Other companies also make their own versions.

The point I made was that people don't wear safety gear if is uncomfortable, because discomfort leads to other safety issues.

But okay, I can see you don't get it.....

I guess not, as I wear high-quality safety gear that's specifically made for hot weather- sometimes it does get very warm, but it's nothing I can't deal with, and most of the time I'm not even aware that I'm wearing it as it doesn't intrude on my senses and take me out of my enjoyment of being on a motorcycle.

If some idiot in a cage takes me out, my chances of living to see another day or avoiding seriously injury are much greater than yours, yet our chances of actually being in an accident are the same- who's the one who doesn't get it...?

You know why many people (especially Thais) don't wear proper gear? Because the good stuff is expensive (it's unobtainable on local wages), and the cheap stuff is pointless. I can understand economic factors being a big issue, but if you can afford quality gear and you don't have it, you're a fool- I don't use fools as examples of how I should model myself.

[wantan]

You didn't have a relevant point as far as safety gear goes- there was nothing to miss- your example of HD riders dressing up to play a part means nothing.

CE-ratings on quality brands are indeed tested and conform to the proper safety standard- Dainese and Alpinestars (and other respected manufacturers) do not simply 'sew on a label'. You are forcing yourself to ride without protection (do you really think designers have neglected the lucrative American summer riding season as far as gear goes?)- you can't blame the manufacturers for your foolishness- those of us who wear proper gear seem to get along just fine in LOS. You go for cheap Chinese copies- well, then, you might someday get what you've been asking for (though I hope not- I hate to see any riders go down, even the squids)- proper rated armor, correct double- and triple-stiching, correctly-place perforation, quality matyerials- you don't get any of this for Chinese copies of real gear.

BTW- the 'moto-cross skeleton jacket' you're going to design already exists- check out the Icon Stryker Rig (I've got one) or the Alpinestars Bionic Jacket- both offer proper armor surrounded by thin mesh, however they both give up abrasion resistance in favor of impact protection. Other companies also make their own versions.

The point I made was that people don't wear safety gear if is uncomfortable, because discomfort leads to other safety issues.

But okay, I can see you don't get it.....

Riding at speeds above 80kmh without safety gear makes me feel "uncomfortable". And i would definitely never go 120kmh without armoured jacket - full armoured with back protector. Yes, i sweat at the stop light. But i still feel better than unprotected

[Kwasaki]

You didn't have a relevant point as far as safety gear goes- there was nothing to miss- your example of HD riders dressing up to play a part means nothing.

CE-ratings on quality brands are indeed tested and conform to the proper safety standard- Dainese and Alpinestars (and other respected manufacturers) do not simply 'sew on a label'. You are forcing yourself to ride without protection (do you really think designers have neglected the lucrative American summer riding season as far as gear goes?)- you can't blame the manufacturers for your foolishness- those of us who wear proper gear seem to get along just fine in LOS. You go for cheap Chinese copies- well, then, you might someday get what you've been asking for (though I hope not- I hate to see any riders go down, even the squids)- proper rated armor, correct double- and triple-stiching, correctly-place perforation, quality matyerials- you don't get any of this for Chinese copies of real gear.

BTW- the 'moto-cross skeleton jacket' you're going to design already exists- check out the Icon Stryker Rig (I've got one) or the Alpinestars Bionic Jacket- both offer proper armor surrounded by thin mesh, however they both give up abrasion resistance in favor of impact protection. Other companies also make their own versions.

The point I made was that people don't wear safety gear if is uncomfortable, because discomfort leads to other safety issues.

But okay, I can see you don't get it.....

Riding at speeds above 80kmh without safety gear makes me feel "uncomfortable". And i would definitely never go 120kmh without armoured jacket - full armoured with back protector. Yes, i sweat at the stop light. But i still feel better than unprotected

This protection thing gets kick around a lot and it seems there are a lot of younger guys on here and I guess older ones too that are safety aware and I endorse that fully.

I started riding in a time when there were no laws about what you wore, yes ! less traffic I guess was one thing but there were many bikes about because not everyone could afford cars.

I admit that riding in Thailand I do not wear safety gear all the time mainly because of the heat and the gear I have is ok but not top stuff.

The last post makes some sense to me but I would say that looking at all the obsticles on the side of the roads apart from the unfortunate ' T ' boning incident or a head-on collision, a armoured jacket is not much protection at 120 kmh, roads ain't tracks and are not built with bikers in mind.

Yeah I say I take my chances whether I am driving or riding but my main point about riding and there are so many is first to make sure essentially of your awareness, have good training and keep homing on skills, build something like a sixth sense I guess, my favorite saying is ride to live.

Going off to ride in Thailand short or long with or without my friends I say :- Lets Get Ready to Dance with the Devil.

Anyway stay safe all you guys in whatever you do. K

[RubberSideDown]

A quality armored jacket offers huge protection at 120kph- it can be the difference between walking away with bruises and being driven to the hospital with serious fractures- it's not a guarantee, but it's certainly cheap insurance.

I would like to think that those of us who have managed to survive many years (in Thailand or elsewhere) are reasonably proficient riders with decent situational awareness- all the skill and experience in the world won't save you from the idiot who turns right in front of you at an intersection or blasts you off the road when he changes lanes into your bike.

If I knew for sure I wouldn't have an accident, I wouldn't wear most of my gear, but I don't know that- I've gone over a decade since my last serious get-off, and I hope to never have one again- that said, I could have a serious accident on my next ride- if it happens, I'll be prepared for it- if it doesn't happen for the rest of my life, I won't feel as if I'd been foolish for gearing up all those years- being a good rider isn't all about your skills- it's about your preparation as well.

[thaicbr]

A quality armored jacket offers huge protection at 120kph- it can be the difference between walking away with bruises and being driven to the hospital with serious fractures- it's not a guarantee, but it's certainly cheap insurance.

I would like to think that those of us who have managed to survive many years (in Thailand or elsewhere) are reasonably proficient riders with decent situational awareness- all the skill and experience in the world won't save you from the idiot who turns right in front of you at an intersection or blasts you off the road when he changes lanes into your bike.

If I knew for sure I wouldn't have an accident, I wouldn't wear most of my gear, but I don't know that- I've gone over a decade since my last serious get-off, and I hope to never have one again- that said, I could have a serious accident on my next ride- if it happens, I'll be prepared for it- if it doesn't happen for the rest of my life, I won't feel as if I'd been foolish for gearing up all those years- being a good rider isn't all about your skills- it's about your preparation as well.

I'm a shit rider... no skill:rolleyes: but got better after reading some bike books.

I've had 4 accidents here in 8 years. I would not be alive if I hadn't been wearing a helmet. I would probably have broken bones if not wearing a jacket. I would certainly have lost skin if not wearing gloves.

I'm happy wearing safety gear

Worst accident was in town riding a Wave. Unconscious for about 18 hours and broken clavicle.

Sent from my phone with the app thingy.

[thaicbr]

Twist of the wrist 2

Good video

Sent from my phone with the app thingy.

[H1w4yR1da]

On the rare occasions I ride my bike (litre inline-4) to work, I wear a armored textile jacket, gloves and basic Arai helmet. I feel exposed compared to the full-protection I use for longer rides.

On longer rides, a fully-armored perforated leather jacket, perforated Dainese leather pants, Sidi Vortice boots, A-stars GP-Pro gloves, balaclava and advanced Arai helmet. The only black is in the pants and boots, though I wouldn't recommend a black helmet on longer rides.

Leather vests are for the Village People and riders of Hardlydrivablesons.

Thanks to the posters for the advice and useful PM's. My jacket is on the way and hopefully doesn't disappear into the black hole that is the Thai Postal Service.

Cheers

[Kwasaki]

A quality armored jacket offers huge protection at 120kph- it can be the difference between walking away with bruises and being driven to the hospital with serious fractures- it's not a guarantee, but it's certainly cheap insurance.

I would like to think that those of us who have managed to survive many years (in Thailand or elsewhere) are reasonably proficient riders with decent situational awareness- all the skill and experience in the world won't save you from the idiot who turns right in front of you at an intersection or blasts you off the road when he changes lanes into your bike.

If I knew for sure I wouldn't have an accident, I wouldn't wear most of my gear, but I don't know that- I've gone over a decade since my last serious get-off, and I hope to never have one again- that said, I could have a serious accident on my next ride- if it happens, I'll be prepared for it- if it doesn't happen for the rest of my life, I won't feel as if I'd been foolish for gearing up all those years- being a good rider isn't all about your skills- it's about your preparation as well.

I'm a shit rider... no skill:rolleyes: but got better after reading some bike books.

I've had 4 accidents here in 8 years. I would not be alive if I hadn't been wearing a helmet. I would probably have broken bones if not wearing a jacket. I would certainly have lost skin if not wearing gloves.

I'm happy wearing safety gear

Worst accident was in town riding a Wave. Unconscious for about 18 hours and broken clavicle.

Sent from my phone with the app thingy.

I will have a look at the vid.

Books are ok but this place is supposed to be good for practicing what you read.

http://www.realmotosports.com/news_events.php?page=news_events

Me's went here many moons ago when they started up in 1996 : -

http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/

I had already been riding many different bikes for over 40 years but still learnt a lot because bikes had become more scary, CBR1000 was a blast but the Blade was something else.

Never had any accidents to speak of only ones that I saw when riding with others, I've been lucky I guess.

Started when I was 4yr and when I was old enough to go road, I was trained by my Dad and had lessons with a police motorcycle instructer.

I find Thailand dodgy at times but no worse and if anything better than England.

[H1w4yR1da]

Well after some snafus with the shipping, the jacket finally arrived. Took it to An-An on the corner of Suk Soi 1. A bit pricey at 2k THB to perforate the front and sleeves but they have to remove the lining to do it. I pick it up tomorrow so I'll post pics then.

[ll2]

I m also interested on perforating my dainese suit. Please post the photos of the work. Thanks.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[H1w4yR1da]

Hopefully I'll be wearing it tomorrow.

[H1w4yR1da]

Okay. Here's the update.

Picked up the jacket from An-An on the corner of Suckonit Soi 1. I'd arrived it the area a little early so had a few happy hour beers in Nana. Got to the shop and they brought out the jacket. Bear in mind they had shown me what the finished article would look like.

Basically like this but with the holes spaced a little further apart.

The front blue area of the jacket looked fine but not as perfect as above.

The left sleeve was okay, a bit ropey but I could live with that.

The right sleeve was the deal-breaker. <deleted>!

As I was standing there in stunned silence, with that sad resigned smile you give when your best mate tells you he's found that perfect girl in Pattaya, the manager called out his worker to explain the haphazard placing of the perforations on the left sleeve. Apparently, they only use a single-hole punch tool!! Jeez! That and the worker was probably on the Lao Khao....

Not wanting him to lose face further, I told him the rest of the jacket was "fine". He gave a bit of a discount but too be honest, that was overpaying as it was.

So if you want to buy a pair of Cowboy boots or a crocodile-skin belt, this is the place. If you want your expensive race leathers perforated or altered and will accept sub-standard work, then try this place.

If you want the job done properly, and not end up looking like Eric Bristow had used it for a Dartboard, try elsewhere.

"One-hundred and eighty!"

[Hili]

Thanks for sharing, hope that left sleeve is not that visible when you wear it. Well if in the end it serves the purpose.... but we should never forget where we are

[Garry]

Okay. Here's the update.

Picked up the jacket from An-An on the corner of Suckonit Soi 1. I'd arrived it the area a little early so had a few happy hour beers in Nana. Got to the shop and they brought out the jacket. Bear in mind they had shown me what the finished article would look like.

Basically like this but with the holes spaced a little further apart.

The front blue area of the jacket looked fine but not as perfect as above.

The left sleeve was okay, a bit ropey but I could live with that.

The right sleeve was the deal-breaker. <deleted>!

As I was standing there in stunned silence, with that sad resigned smile you give when your best mate tells you he's found that perfect girl in Pattaya, the manager called out his worker to explain the haphazard placing of the perforations on the left sleeve. Apparently, they only use a single-hole punch tool!! Jeez! That and the worker was probably on the Lao Khao....

Not wanting him to lose face further, I told him the rest of the jacket was "fine". He gave a bit of a discount but too be honest, that was overpaying as it was.

So if you want to buy a pair of Cowboy boots or a crocodile-skin belt, this is the place. If you want your expensive race leathers perforated or altered and will accept sub-standard work, then try this place.

If you want the job done properly, and not end up looking like Eric Bristow had used it for a Dartboard, try elsewhere.

"One-hundred and eighty!"

And to think all they had to do was have a mesh template and use a sharpie to spot the holes and not eyeball it.. Dumbasses. Let us know how well the ventilation works

[ll2]

Okay. Here's the update.

Picked up the jacket from An-An on the corner of Suckonit Soi 1. I'd arrived it the area a little early so had a few happy hour beers in Nana. Got to the shop and they brought out the jacket. Bear in mind they had shown me what the finished article would look like.

Basically like this but with the holes spaced a little further apart.

The front blue area of the jacket looked fine but not as perfect as above.

The left sleeve was okay, a bit ropey but I could live with that.

The right sleeve was the deal-breaker. <deleted>!

As I was standing there in stunned silence, with that sad resigned smile you give when your best mate tells you he's found that perfect girl in Pattaya, the manager called out his worker to explain the haphazard placing of the perforations on the left sleeve. Apparently, they only use a single-hole punch tool!! Jeez! That and the worker was probably on the Lao Khao....

Not wanting him to lose face further, I told him the rest of the jacket was "fine". He gave a bit of a discount but too be honest, that was overpaying as it was.

So if you want to buy a pair of Cowboy boots or a crocodile-skin belt, this is the place. If you want your expensive race leathers perforated or altered and will accept sub-standard work, then try this place.

If you want the job done properly, and not end up looking like Eric Bristow had used it for a Dartboard, try elsewhere.

"One-hundred and eighty!"

so, i ll not go there.

thanks for sharing:)

hope it ventilates good now at least.

Edited December 14, 2013 by ll2

[RubberSideDown]

If that poorly-perforated area touches down at speed, it's going to tear like tissue paper- the structural integrity of the jacket has been compromised- if they didn't know what they were doing they shouldn't have taken the job- sorry, man, but I hope it wasn't too expensive.

[Garry]

If that poorly-perforated area touches down at speed, it's going to tear like tissue paper- the structural integrity of the jacket has been compromised- if they didn't know what they were doing they shouldn't have taken the job- sorry, man, but I hope it wasn't too expensive.

Typical Thailand, will never admit that they can't do something and prefer to f$ck up your good gear. Had it happen with my Ducati.

[harrry]

You didn't have a relevant point as far as safety gear goes- there was nothing to miss- your example of HD riders dressing up to play a part means nothing.

CE-ratings on quality brands are indeed tested and conform to the proper safety standard- Dainese and Alpinestars (and other respected manufacturers) do not simply 'sew on a label'. You are forcing yourself to ride without protection (do you really think designers have neglected the lucrative American summer riding season as far as gear goes?)- you can't blame the manufacturers for your foolishness- those of us who wear proper gear seem to get along just fine in LOS. You go for cheap Chinese copies- well, then, you might someday get what you've been asking for (though I hope not- I hate to see any riders go down, even the squids)- proper rated armor, correct double- and triple-stiching, correctly-place perforation, quality matyerials- you don't get any of this for Chinese copies of real gear.

BTW- the 'moto-cross skeleton jacket' you're going to design already exists- check out the Icon Stryker Rig (I've got one) or the Alpinestars Bionic Jacket- both offer proper armor surrounded by thin mesh, however they both give up abrasion resistance in favor of impact protection. Other companies also make their own versions.

The point I made was that people don't wear safety gear if is uncomfortable, because discomfort leads to other safety issues.

But okay, I can see you don't get it.....

Riding at speeds above 80kmh without safety gear makes me feel "uncomfortable". And i would definitely never go 120kmh without armoured jacket - full armoured with back protector. Yes, i sweat at the stop light. But i still feel better than unprotected

My accident was 15km hr....and if I had not had a jacket and helmet I would be dead....as it was I had shoes not boots and not armoured pants so lost a leg and messed up pelvis needing hew hip.

Do not think because you are only local and slow you are safe.

[Garry]

You didn't have a relevant point as far as safety gear goes- there was nothing to miss- your example of HD riders dressing up to play a part means nothing.

CE-ratings on quality brands are indeed tested and conform to the proper safety standard- Dainese and Alpinestars (and other respected manufacturers) do not simply 'sew on a label'. You are forcing yourself to ride without protection (do you really think designers have neglected the lucrative American summer riding season as far as gear goes?)- you can't blame the manufacturers for your foolishness- those of us who wear proper gear seem to get along just fine in LOS. You go for cheap Chinese copies- well, then, you might someday get what you've been asking for (though I hope not- I hate to see any riders go down, even the squids)- proper rated armor, correct double- and triple-stiching, correctly-place perforation, quality matyerials- you don't get any of this for Chinese copies of real gear.

BTW- the 'moto-cross skeleton jacket' you're going to design already exists- check out the Icon Stryker Rig (I've got one) or the Alpinestars Bionic Jacket- both offer proper armor surrounded by thin mesh, however they both give up abrasion resistance in favor of impact protection. Other companies also make their own versions.

The point I made was that people don't wear safety gear if is uncomfortable, because discomfort leads to other safety issues.

But okay, I can see you don't get it.....

Riding at speeds above 80kmh without safety gear makes me feel "uncomfortable". And i would definitely never go 120kmh without armoured jacket - full armoured with back protector. Yes, i sweat at the stop light. But i still feel better than unprotected

My accident was 15km hr....and if I had not had a jacket and helmet I would be dead....as it was I had shoes not boots and not armoured pants so lost a leg and messed up pelvis needing hew hip.

Do not think because you are only local and slow you are safe.

One very sobering post harrry. One can get as easily banged up at slow speeds as fast speeds.

[H1w4yR1da]

The jacket also has 6 zipper vents, 2 front, 2 back and 1 on each arm.

Hopefully the structural integrity hasn't been compromised too much- it's still 1.4m leather, much thicker them my perforated Dainese pants which has holes closer together than what Somchai did to my jacket. Wore it on the Khao Yai ride today and the vents really help.

[yankee99]

The good thing is no one but you will notice the poor workmanship.

[ll2]

the colored parts of the jacket was looking OK though but white parts were like eaten by ants!

[H1w4yR1da]

the colored parts of the jacket was looking OK though but white parts were like eaten by ants!

No no no!. Only one white part!!

Looking back, I'm wondering whether the Somchai did it on purpose.I mean how do you go from . . . . to . . . .. . . . . ... ??????

. . . .. .. . . . . .. . . . .

. . . . .. . . . . .. .. . . . .

Edited December 16, 2013 by H1w4yR1da

[ll2]

the colored parts of the jacket was looking OK though but white parts were like eaten by ants!

No no no!. Only one white part!!

Looking back, I'm wondering whether the Somchai did it on purpose.I mean how do you go from . . . . to . . . .. . . . . ... ??????

. . . .. .. . . . . .. . . . .

. . . . .. . . . . .. .. . . . .

it is before lao kao and after lao kao or vice versa

Edited December 16, 2013 by ll2