Domestic Electrical Wiring

[rocky3]

in the US black-white-green is 110 volts, single phase.

black-red-green is 220 volts 3 wire single phase.

black-red-blue 220 volts 3wire 3 phase.

black-red-blue-white 220volts 4 wire 3 phase.

orange-yellow-brown-green, 460 volts 3 phase.

I think Thailand and England use 220 volts in there houses, while in the USA we use 110 volt with 220 volts for ranges and dryers, and air conditioning units. I got to page 5 and was looking at the discussions of wire colors when I thought I would point out the different supply voltages.

Thanks

Rocky3

[Crossy]

For anybody interested back issues of the Institute of Electrical Engineers (IEE) magazine 'Wiring Matters" are available for free download on the IEE website:-

http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/WiringMatters/index.cfm

Some interesting articles presented in a way that most of us who are likely to muck about with our house wiring will understand

Edited March 1, 2007 by Crossy

[elkangorito]

Thanks for that link Crossy...some good stuff in there.

As for single phase voltages, Australia is 240 volts RMS, Thailand is 220 volts RMS & UK is the same as Australia (or is it 230 v? Correct me if I'm wrong Crossy).

[Crossy]

As for single phase voltages, Australia is 240 volts RMS, Thailand is 220 volts RMS & UK is the same as Australia (or is it 230 v? Correct me if I'm wrong Crossy).

UK WAS 240V +-5% until a few years back (2000 ish), then with European harmonisation the nominal voltage was reduced to 230V (Europe increased from 220v to 230V), BUT the tolerance on the 230V is sufficient that both 220V and 240V are in range, so in reality sod all has changed, UK=240v, Europe=220V.

The Euro-politicians also tried to impose the 16A Schuko plug on us too, but issues with ring mains and the whole nation needing re-wiring as radials killed that one off Although, just like Thailand, some major appliances come with Schuko plugs attached which the installation man must replace by UK standard.

[gcad]

Thanks for that link Crossy...some good stuff in there.

As for single phase voltages, Australia is 240 volts RMS, Thailand is 220 volts RMS & UK is the same as Australia (or is it 230 v? Correct me if I'm wrong Crossy).

Australia is 230V +10%/-5%. My wiring rules book is not within arm's reach, so forgive me for not quoting the rule number.

[elkangorito]

Thanks for that link Crossy...some good stuff in there.

As for single phase voltages, Australia is 240 volts RMS, Thailand is 220 volts RMS & UK is the same as Australia (or is it 230 v? Correct me if I'm wrong Crossy).

Australia is 230V +10%/-5%. My wiring rules book is not within arm's reach, so forgive me for not quoting the rule number.

Thanks gcad. I didn't know they changed it. See below;

1.8.2 Supply characteristics

The following characteristics of the electricity supply shall be determined:

[a] Nature of current, a.c. or d.c.

Nature and number of conductors, as follows:

Phase, neutral and protective earthing conductors for a.c.

[ii] Equivalent conductors for d.c.

[c] Voltage and voltage tolerances.

NOTE: The nominal voltage and tolerances for low voltage supply systems

and electrical installations are:

[a] For Australia, 230/400 V +10% −6% (in accordance with AS 60038); and

For New Zealand, 230/400 V + 6% to −6%.

Edited March 5, 2007 by elkangorito

[Crossy]

[a] For Australia, 230/400 V +10% −6% (in accordance with AS 60038); and

For New Zealand, 230/400 V + 6% to −6%.

So, Oz is now harmonised ready to join Europe where you belong

All we have to do now is persuade the Septics to join the 230V 50Hz club along with the Japs (100V 60Hz IIRC) and the Philippines (220v 60Hz). The Philippines is somewhat special, in that their 220V is actually between phases (so both wires bite), means all MCBs, switches etc. have to be double-pole, pain in the XXX. Also the only country to use 220V 60Hz.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Crossy

[chownah]

US has 220v 60 Hz.

[elkangorito]

[a] For Australia, 230/400 V +10% −6% (in accordance with AS 60038); and

For New Zealand, 230/400 V + 6% to −6%.

So, Oz is now harmonised ready to join Europe where you belong

All we have to do now is persuade the Septics to join the 230V 50Hz club along with the Japs (100V 60Hz IIRC) and the Philippines (220v 60Hz). The Philippines is somewhat special, in that their 220V is actually between phases (so both wires bite), means all MCBs, switches etc. have to be double-pole, pain in the XXX. Also the only country to use 220V 60Hz.

Well, we know the backward Septics won't do any of that...they just like to make life difficult for everybody else with all the inane conversions etc.

Didn't know about the Philippines. You're right, what a pain in the freckle! I guess the switchgear manufacturers are making a killing there.

[Khonwan]

The complete draft of the new IEE 17th Edition is still available for download at http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/DPC/index.cfm

[Crossy]

US has 220v 60 Hz.

Technically yes, but only as a by-product of having a bi-phase 110V supply There is no 110v in the Philippines.

[Crossy]

The complete draft of the new IEE 17th Edition is still available for download at http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/DPC/index.cfm

Well spotted sir, downloading now, a little 'light' reading

Interesting to note that it will still be called The IEE Wiring Regulations although the IEE changed its title last year to the IET (Institute of Engineering Technologists), bloody stupid idea (which I voted against), "IEE" is a well known 'brand' which is why my business cards still carry the 'MIEE' designation as well as 'MIET' (nobody outside the institute has heard of the IET).

[elkangorito]

I have just come into possession of a list of available kilowatt hour meters in Thailand. There is not any detail with regards to weatherproofing, so assume all are not weatherproof. Maximum current carrying capacity is listed.

Sizes as follows;

Single phase.

15 Amp.

45 Amp (2 types, 2 prices - not sure what the difference is).

60 Amp.

100 Amp (2 types, 2 prices - not sure what the difference is).

3 phase.

5 Amp (for CT use).

45 Amp.

100 Amp.

150 Amp.

[elkangorito]

This is an edit of the previous post.

I have just come into possession of a list of available kilowatt hour meters in Thailand. There is not any detail with regards to weatherproofing, so assume all are not weatherproof. Maximum current carrying capacity not in brackets. Retail price is also listed in Bhat.

Sizes as follows;

Single phase.

(5)15 Amp - 900.

(15)45 Amp (2 types, 2 prices - not sure what the difference is) - 750 & 950.

(30)60 Amp - 1250.

(30)100 Amp - 1550.

(50)150 Amp - 1800.

3 phase.

5 Amp (for CT use) - 4200.

(15)45 Amp - 4700.

(30)100 Amp - 5000.

(50)150 Amp - 5500.

Edited March 7, 2007 by elkangorito

[Crossy]

It's not just Thailand

I nealy died, literally, when checking this Philippines THREE PHASE installation. Spot the (at least three) 'deliberate' mistakes.

Note. 220v here is between phases, so there is no neutral in a 220V installation, the grey PVC 2.5mm2 is the incoming supply from the main switch-room (this is a metro station) which is about 100m away..

[technocracy]

It's not just Thailand

I nealy died, literally, when checking this Philippines THREE PHASE installation. Spot the (at least three) 'deliberate' mistakes.

Note. 220v here is between phases, so there is no neutral in a 220V installation, the grey PVC 2.5mm2 is the incoming supply from the main switch-room (this is a metro station) which is about 100m away..

some interesting use of colour coding there!

[elkangorito]

It's not just Thailand

I nealy died, literally, when checking this Philippines THREE PHASE installation. Spot the (at least three) 'deliberate' mistakes.

Note. 220v here is between phases, so there is no neutral in a 220V installation, the grey PVC 2.5mm2 is the incoming supply from the main switch-room (this is a metro station) which is about 100m away..

I also noticed how badly the terminations were done. They should have used crimp lugs or at least, bigger flat washers between the twisted wires.

BTW, I've found a place in Pattaya that sells 2.5mm2 twin+earth PVC TPS cable (the white sheathed cable used in domestic wiring). The brand is Thai Yazaki & the product is VAF-GRD. The only problem is that it is only insulated for 300 volts (as most cables seem to be here in Thailand). The shop is on the left hand side Teprasit Rd as you travel from Sukumvit Rd, close to the Sukumvit end (1-2 kms) & is almost opposite a PTT petrol station.

[Crossy]

I also noticed how badly the terminations were done. They should have used crimp lugs or at least, bigger flat washers between the twisted wires.

BTW, I've found a place in Pattaya that sells 2.5mm2 twin+earth PVC TPS cable (the white sheathed cable used in domestic wiring). The brand is Thai Yazaki & the product is VAF-GRD. The only problem is that it is only insulated for 300 volts (as most cables seem to be here in Thailand). The shop is on the left hand side Teprasit Rd as you travel from Sukumvit Rd, close to the Sukumvit end (1-2 kms) & is almost opposite a PTT petrol station.

What core colours is the TPS? How much is it? How much have they got? 300V isn't ideal, but it should be OK if it's in conduit

BTW The PVC cable in my piccie is 4mm2 (not 2.5 as I noted), still crap installation though. That incoming breaker is 63A too. Had a BIG meeting today with the contractor regarding this 'installation', apparently 'can't get' the correct cable (3 x brown or brown-black-grey) here, they're going to sleeve all three cores in black and label L1, L2, L3 at both ends (they DID offer to replace the cable with a 'local' style, black-black-green )

Only another two and a bit weeks here, then back to LoS :D and the wifey :bah:

EDIT Answered my own question, it's Black-Grey-green/yellow, full spec is here http://www.thaiyazaki-electricwire.co.th/p...bwc/vaf_grd.pdf

Looks like it's made in Thailand.

EDIT 2 List of dealers here http://www.thaiyazaki-electricwire.co.th/index_dealer.html

Edited March 14, 2007 by Crossy

[elkangorito]

Crossy, you & I agree that the 'fuse blowing' problem be aired here, so here it is. The OP shall remain nameless at this point unless he chooses to identify himself.

The below quote has been edited by myself to maintain the anonyminity of the OP.

I believe that the fuse in question is a rewirable fuse, although this needs to be varified by the OP. Also, it would help to know more detail about the positioning of the earth leakage device with respect to the fuse, measured voltages etc.

The only thing that I can think of is a resistive or broken neutral somewhere.

If anybody has any sensible ideas, let's discuss them.

Aggressively Blowing The Neutral Fuse, 2007-03-11 16:52:03

Hi,

I have twisted my brain in a knot trying to figure this out. I decided I needed anothers opinion.

The SquareD safety box is blowing the 60A Neutral Fuse. The fuse blows aggressively, a total meltdown.

Sounds like my 300A stick welder. The fuse is totally destroyed, 1/2 is vaporized. Happens about every 10 days. Late afternoon, very early evening. It does not blow during peak usage. At peak usage I estimate a 40~50 Amp load. I estimate the fuse is blowing at a 10 A load (if that). No heavy loads.

No A/C or kitchen appliances in use. Just 3 regular fans, the fridge and freezer. No brownouts precede it.

The Safety Box feeds the "Safe-T-Cut". It has a 60A breaker and the GFCI. GFCI is set to trip at 25ma. Nothing trips. That feeds a 16 breaker SquareD distro panel. It has a 60A main breaker. Again, no breakers trip, and no wires are toasted.

Connections withing the Safety Box are tight and clean. So no residual resistance.

The fuses are name brand "Eagle". We have lived here for 4 years, no problems. The "original" fuse was 10 years old. Replaced the second and third time with same from HomePro.

Any suggestions?

Harmonics?

Bogus Fuses?

Any insight is appreciated.

[technocracy]

I

BTW, I've found a place in Pattaya that sells 2.5mm2 twin+earth PVC TPS cable (the white sheathed cable used in domestic wiring). The brand is Thai Yazaki & the product is VAF-GRD. The only problem is that it is only insulated for 300 volts (as most cables seem to be here in Thailand). The shop is on the left hand side Teprasit Rd as you travel from Sukumvit Rd, close to the Sukumvit end (1-2 kms) & is almost opposite a PTT petrol station.

EDIT Answered my own question, it's Black-Grey-green/yellow, full spec is here http://www.thaiyazaki-electricwire.co.th/p...bwc/vaf_grd.pdf

Looks like it's made in Thailand.

EDIT 2 List of dealers here http://www.thaiyazaki-electricwire.co.th/index_dealer.html

Yep, I've got 200m of that exact 2.5mm2 twin & earth next to the bed at the moment!

I can confirm the colours are Black, Grey, Green-Yellow

[Crossy]

Yep, I've got 200m of that exact 2.5mm2 twin & earth next to the bed at the moment!

Interesting new fetish Tech??

BTW If you dig out the actual standard quoted (TIS 11-2531, Table 11), it's rated for systems using 300V RMS (10% overvoltage permitted), tested to 2kV (DC I assume).

The standard is here http://www.tisi.go.th/standard/fulltext_e/tis11_2531.pdf (in English). There are other standards on the site for interesting reading, from canned Tuna to Gasohol.

[chownah]

Yep, I've got 200m of that exact 2.5mm2 twin & earth next to the bed at the moment!

Interesting new fetish Tech??

BTW If you dig out the actual standard quoted (TIS 11-2531, Table 11), it's rated for systems using 300V RMS (10% overvoltage permitted), tested to 2kV (DC I assume).

The standard is here http://www.tisi.go.th/standard/fulltext_e/tis11_2531.pdf (in English). There are other standards on the site for interesting reading, from canned Tuna to Gasohol.

Is this wire then underated for use in a Thai 3 phase system since its only rated for 300 volts?

[Crossy]

Is this wire then underated for use in a Thai 3 phase system since its only rated for 300 volts?

If you intend putting more than one phase + neutral down a single cable then YES they are under rated. These are single-phase cables (300V RMS between cores), the colours available indicate that, cables intended for 3-phase would be coloured black-black-black-grey-green (assuming 4-wire + ground).

If you want to use a three phase appliance then you should use 600V rated cable like this http://www.thaiyazaki-electricwire.co.th/p...f/cvv_cvv_s.pdf or 3 separate cores like this http://www.thaiyazaki-electricwire.co.th/p.../bwc/thwa_c.pdf or similar.

No real reason why you shouldn't use 3 runs of the 300v stuff (one for each phase).

Edited March 18, 2007 by Crossy

[robint]

Chownah

quote

Since I'm a farmer and not an electrician I can give advice in situations like this without the risk of ruining my reputation...what me? reputation? hah!

unquote

you see chownah, your well intentioned but woefully illinformed (by your own admission) opinions are an example where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

It does kinda trivialise the whole issue of safe electrical practice - to which a huge and rigourous set of codes and standards exists.

its the reason why i despair of boards like this because such attitudes can be spread all too easily amonsgt the technically illiterate and cause a false sense of "i know what i am doing"

If you really understood the technology you would also know how easy it is to receive a fatal shock under the wrong circumstances (especially so for children and old people)

worst of all is when you think you have a safe system but an unknown fault has developed and is waiting to catch you (eg your earth wire has fallen of the rod or a shower safety cut has failed from lightning damage and so on)

I heard only yesterday of 2 girls who were electrocuted in the shower room because they spray water on the heater itself (which had no cutout or earth wire)

the list is endless

you must not take risks nor encourage others to be careless

[chownah]

Chownah

quote

Since I'm a farmer and not an electrician I can give advice in situations like this without the risk of ruining my reputation...what me? reputation? hah!

unquote

you see chownah, your well intentioned but woefully illinformed (by your own admission) opinions are an example where a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.

It does kinda trivialise the whole issue of safe electrical practice - to which a huge and rigourous set of codes and standards exists.

its the reason why i despair of boards like this because such attitudes can be spread all too easily amonsgt the technically illiterate and cause a false sense of "i know what i am doing"

If you really understood the technology you would also know how easy it is to receive a fatal shock under the wrong circumstances (especially so for children and old people)

worst of all is when you think you have a safe system but an unknown fault has developed and is waiting to catch you (eg your earth wire has fallen of the rod or a shower safety cut has failed from lightning damage and so on)

I heard only yesterday of 2 girls who were electrocuted in the shower room because they spray water on the heater itself (which had no cutout or earth wire)

the list is endless

you must not take risks nor encourage others to be careless

What an interesting post!!! You have resurrected a quote from me from way back in this thread and have decided to use it today to confront me with my stupidity!!! How bizarre......and what pray tell has prompted you to go to the trouble of pointing out the obvious.

You end your post by telling me that I must not take risks!!!!! Even my mother knew that risks are inevitably part of life. Perhaps your mother didn't teach you this....and evidentally she didn't tell you about a large part of humanity that views life without risk as a rather boring hypothetic.

Chownah

P.S. Its probably pointless for you to try to tell me what I must and must not do....it really doesn't affect me one way or the other....unless your point is simply to strike an impressive pose and parade your "superiority" here in the public forum.

Chownah

P.P.S. and by the way I advise people to get gas showers to avoid the inherent danger of having a live 220V appliance IN THE SHOWER FOR CHRIST'S SAKE....what a foolish thing to do....of course you probably shower in a basin outside...with cold water....wearing a motorcycle helmet (soap makes feet slippery and unsafe...you might fall down) since this would be the most risk free option available.

Chownah

Edited March 18, 2007 by chownah

[elkangorito]

Anybody got any thoughts about the below info?

Crossy, you & I agree that the 'fuse blowing' problem be aired here, so here it is. The OP shall remain nameless at this point unless he chooses to identify himself.

The below quote has been edited by myself to maintain the anonyminity of the OP.

I believe that the fuse in question is a rewirable fuse, although this needs to be varified by the OP. Also, it would help to know more detail about the positioning of the earth leakage device with respect to the fuse, measured voltages etc.

The only thing that I can think of is a resistive or broken neutral somewhere.

If anybody has any sensible ideas, let's discuss them.

Aggressively Blowing The Neutral Fuse, 2007-03-11 16:52:03

Hi,

I have twisted my brain in a knot trying to figure this out. I decided I needed anothers opinion.

The SquareD safety box is blowing the 60A Neutral Fuse. The fuse blows aggressively, a total meltdown.

Sounds like my 300A stick welder. The fuse is totally destroyed, 1/2 is vaporized. Happens about every 10 days. Late afternoon, very early evening. It does not blow during peak usage. At peak usage I estimate a 40~50 Amp load. I estimate the fuse is blowing at a 10 A load (if that). No heavy loads.

No A/C or kitchen appliances in use. Just 3 regular fans, the fridge and freezer. No brownouts precede it.

The Safety Box feeds the "Safe-T-Cut". It has a 60A breaker and the GFCI. GFCI is set to trip at 25ma. Nothing trips. That feeds a 16 breaker SquareD distro panel. It has a 60A main breaker. Again, no breakers trip, and no wires are toasted.

Connections withing the Safety Box are tight and clean. So no residual resistance.

The fuses are name brand "Eagle". We have lived here for 4 years, no problems. The "original" fuse was 10 years old. Replaced the second and third time with same from HomePro.

Any suggestions?

Harmonics?

Bogus Fuses?

Any insight is appreciated.

[Pink Mist]

can you draw a circuit of the total installation and post, I can get my head around it then.

we dont use fuses in the nuetral here in oz, so hence the drawing.

Also a method of finding problems like that is to split installation into seperate cicuits and mouse-trap them ie seperately fuse every circuit and sub circuit

[elkangorito]

can you draw a circuit of the total installation and post, I can get my head around it then.

we dont use fuses in the nuetral here in oz, so hence the drawing.

Also a method of finding problems like that is to split installation into seperate cicuits and mouse-trap them ie seperately fuse every circuit and sub circuit

Unfortunately bronc, the info that is in my original post is all the info that was given to me by the OP. I did request more info from him but he not responded. I can't even make a decent guess without more info.

[Pink Mist]

makes it difficult to diagnose faults aye

[Nawtilus]

How safe are the electric water units which are hidden in cabinets for example under the sinks in bathrooms etc. Then this one unit provides hot water to the wash asins, shower and ath etc, but is completely out of view and certainly not in the shower itself. Only thing it is near is the water in and outlets under the wash basins.

y the way, great informative thread, way to much info to absorb and sort through but.

Edited March 19, 2007 by Nawtilus