Domestic Electrical Wiring

[jojothai]

8 All parties agreed I will be OK with 35 sqmm cable for the 60 m long 4 wire 3 phase connection to the new house. However i have to work out if I will need to put 2 cables out of the 4 as 50 sqmm for initial single phase set up.

If you're likely to go for 3-phase any time soon, why not run the required 4x35mm cables and pair them up (giving 2x 70mm equivalent) for the initial single-phase set up?

thanks Crossy. very good comment. hadn't thought through it enough, and your help is much appreciated.

jojo

[dotcom]

If I were doing it I would run 15/45 AMP single phase to my CU & wait to see if they upgrade the transformer. No way would I buy a Transformer as a gift to a state owned power company. That's why we pay taxes.

I would run 35 mm wire.

[jojothai]

If I were doing it I would run 15/45 AMP single phase to my CU & wait to see if they upgrade the transformer. No way would I buy a Transformer as a gift to a state owned power company. That's why we pay taxes.

I would run 35 mm wire.

hi dotcom

agrees with my opinion.

at 25 kva the transformer is very small for 1 km of road. presume at 220v it can support only just over 100amp. only enough for several thai houses at 5/15 amp never mind 15/45 amp.

I am going for 15/45 amp single phase initial. assume that as soon as I connect the 15/45 amp with full load there will be problems for some other houses. then I trust the electricity people have the problem and will have to act.

crossy's advice on making 2 x 35 into 70mmsq for initial set up was good.

I will have 4 x 35mmsq making the 2 x70 initial.

sorry I didn't reply earlier. now in the province, wiring being installed. electrician seems to understand what I have figured out for phase balance and consumer units so trust things are on track well and thanks for the TV advisors.

regards

jojo

[stephanienyc]

The Philippines is somewhat special, in that their 220V is actually between phases (so both wires bite), means all MCBs, switches etc. have to be double-pole, pain in the XXX. Also the only country to use 220V 60Hz.

South Korea also uses 220 Volts at 60 Hertz. Both sides are live, similar to the Philippine system. Probably because early on, these were 110 - 0 - 110 volt systems (like in the US) and now they just bridge between the two active lines and dispense with the neutral.

[stephanienyc]

We have just taken delivery of a new Whirlpool washing machine after the previous unit was declared beyond repair by our pet repair chap (it did make quite a big bang).

A pleasant buying experience in Homepro (well the THREE trainee sales girls were cute) was followed by prompt delivery and installation.

The old machine had a Schuko plug for which I'd installed the correct socket, the new machine has the plug pictured below:-

Interesting, I've not seen anything quite like it before and it's not on the usual 'international electricity' sites. It fits the regular Thai 'universal' grounded outlet perfectly (which the installation chaps re-fitted for us after I'd found it), so it's 1,000,000 times better than the Schuko that was fitted to the old machine, although it really looks like it's intended to fit a recessed outlet.

Anyone seen these elsewhere, or are they a strange hybrid dreamed up by the Thais to confuse everyone even more?

Looks very similar to the old UK 5A (still used in India) but the ground is the same size as the L and N pins and is closer to them, 5A plug pictured below for comparison.

It seems very similar to the Israeli plug:

[dotcom]

Only seen this on the high end of Philips Steam Irons. Lopburi said it was the new Thai Standard.

Is it the same? Looks plenty robust.

Edited November 8, 2008 by dotcom

[Crossy]

Only seen this on the high end of Philips Steam Irons. Lopburi said it was the new Thai Standard.

Is it the same? Looks plenty robust.

Yup, and theoretically all new appliances must have it. Finally we may have standardisation

[dotcom]

I am waiting to see when replacement plugs become available in the market.

[stephanienyc]

Only seen this on the high end of Philips Steam Irons. Lopburi said it was the new Thai Standard.

Is it the same? Looks plenty robust.

Yup, and theoretically all new appliances must have it. Finally we may have standardisation

Actually this page now says that it was [revoked] "from being mandatory standard September 20, 2008". So I guess this means appliances will continue to be sold with German or American earthed plugs?

www.tisi.go.th/standard/comp_eng.html

[jojothai]

hi crossy and others.

I have many clarifications on the domestic wiring and a lot done now. still some queries crop up to ask. hope you can help.

1. have to consider connection to supply.

now I will be going underground in conduit. we also have high ground water.

I have NYY cable.

Because I have 4 cables 35sqmm for a 3 phase connection, should I separate the cables in individual conduit or is it ok put all 4 in one big conduit?

2. also I will be running the telephone cable connection underground in same trench but separate conduit. what spacing from electric conduit may be necessary?

3.also, what type of cable do I need to use for telephone line underground. my electrician seems to be saying something but I cannot yet figure out what he means.

thanks for help

jojo

[Crossy]

1. have to consider connection to supply.

now I will be going underground in conduit. we also have high ground water.

I have NYY cable.

Because I have 4 cables 35sqmm for a 3 phase connection, should I separate the cables in individual conduit or is it ok put all 4 in one big conduit?

2. also I will be running the telephone cable connection underground in same trench but separate conduit. what spacing from electric conduit may be necessary?

3.also, what type of cable do I need to use for telephone line underground. my electrician seems to be saying something but I cannot yet figure out what he means.

1. All the cables will be fine in one conduit but ensure that it is no more than 50% full. You may wish to consider the use of a directly-buriable 4 core cable rather than using conduit, watch the radius of any bends (>4 x cable diameter).

2. Keep the phone conduit 6" or so away from your power lines.

3. I would use a stranded 'alarm' type cable (4 or 6 cores - the phone needs two so spares for failure or the gate phone etc.) for the phone to better withstand being pulled through your conduit. Although the regular 'phone' cable with solid cores is perfectly adequate so long as you're careful when pulling it, run the cable off the reel by pulling rather than letting it roll off the side of the drum.

Don't forget to leave a drawstring in your conduit to allow future cable replacement / addition, and ensure you seal the end of the conduit to prevent creatures making it their home (and munching on your cable). Keep the ends of the conduit well above any potential flood level.

[jojothai]

1. All the cables will be fine in one conduit but ensure that it is no more than 50% full. You may wish to consider the use of a directly-buriable 4 core cable rather than using conduit, watch the radius of any bends (>4 x cable diameter).

2. Keep the phone conduit 6" or so away from your power lines.

3. I would use a stranded 'alarm' type cable (4 or 6 cores - the phone needs two so spares for failure or the gate phone etc.) for the phone to better withstand being pulled through your conduit. Although the regular 'phone' cable with solid cores is perfectly adequate so long as you're careful when pulling it, run the cable off the reel by pulling rather than letting it roll off the side of the drum.

Don't forget to leave a drawstring in your conduit to allow future cable replacement / addition, and ensure you seal the end of the conduit to prevent creatures making it their home (and munching on your cable). Keep the ends of the conduit well above any potential flood level.

crossy

thanks for your comments.

much appreciated

jojo

[Artisi]

A quick question for the experts - is there / what are the advantages / disadvantages for a household between ring main and radial wiring systems.

I'm just putting my thoughts together for a new house project in the near future.

Thanks

[Crossy]

A quick question for the experts - is there / what are the advantages / disadvantages for a household between ring main and radial wiring systems.

Domestic ring mains are peculiar to the UK system with our BS1363 fused plugs, it's all rather historical actually (I'll dig out the article when I have a min). In Thailand rings would not be permitted as we don't have fused plugs, so no issue, radials only.

Use 2.5mm² cable (unless you have a very long run over 30m or so) protected by a 20A breaker, up to 8 double outlets per radial.

Thai sparkies tend to run a cable round the roof space with droppers down to each outlet. Watch the joints they tend to get twisted and taped, wire nuts or proper screw connectors are recommended.

Edited January 6, 2009 by Crossy

[Artisi]

A quick question for the experts - is there / what are the advantages / disadvantages for a household between ring main and radial wiring systems.

Domestic ring mains are peculiar to the UK system with our BS1363 fused plugs, it's all rather historical actually (I'll dig out the article when I have a min). In Thailand rings would not be permitted as we don't have fused plugs, so no issue, radials only.

Use 2.5mm² cable (unless you have a very long run over 30m or so) protected by a 20A breaker, up to 8 double outlets per radial.

Thai sparkies tend to run a cable round the roof space with droppers down to each outlet. Watch the joints they tend to get twisted and taped, wire nuts or proper screw connectors are recommended.

Thanks for the quick reply.

The sparkies will know what quality work means by the time they finish with me as twisted and taped joints don't belong in my vocabulary, my vocab. only has earthed system, screwed connectors, junction boxes, earth leakage breakers and fully protected circuits etc, as per Aust. wiring code. Also thinking about Aust. 3 pin power outlets instead of those beautiful 2 pin type normally used thru-out Thailand, you know the ones, the ones that the plugs keep falling out of.

[dotcom]

This stuff is available locally. Panasonic socket Eagle electric plugs.

Good for about 1800 watt I reckon.

Good luck. Clipsal is available here.

Please post pictures of your connectors.

Edited January 6, 2009 by dotcom

[Artisi]

This stuff is available locally. Panasonic socket Eagle electric plugs.

Good for about 1800 watt I reckon.

Good luck. Clipsal is available here.

Please post pictures of your connectors.

[Crossy]

Are those ^^^ available here in Thailand? Sizes? They look pretty pukka to me

Edited January 6, 2009 by Crossy

[Artisi]

Are those ^^^ available here in Thailand? Sizes? They look pretty pukka to me

They are good - you can fit at least 4 x 2.5mm2 without any problem - I brought them in Aust. for a recent apartment renovation I just completed - will be bringing a box of them with me when I come back to start building. They are also available as a single screw - same as BP - also very good - you could fit 3x2.5 mm2. but would opt for the larger one - ok for 2 wire connection.

[dotcom]

I was in a hardware store yesterday & saw this "consumer unit" or load center as I would call it.

For all of you who ask "What do I need for my bungalow or condo or small house.

This is it. This prefab unit has cutouts for a safe-t-cut & a breaker box & your master breaker. Has a lock with key to keep little hands out.

You get the idea. This shop is on Suk 71. pm me if you need the address. Basically across from the Esso at PD46.

Cheers.

Edited February 26, 2009 by dotcom

[LouiefromTexas]

Hello all,

Found this thread, and figured it was the best place to house this problem, since I think it will be related, and might help someone in the future.

I just moved here to Thailand (Pattaya), and brought some US voltage (110v variety) with me. I also bought a 3000 watt transformer (technically, a VST Deluxe Voltage Regulator Stabilizer Step UP/DOWN Transformer, since I won't be able to post a URL) to do the job of converting.

I have some 110v speakers, one computer, two guitar amps, and a few other misc. things. Not even close to 50% load. Plugging in everything using two surge protector/power strips (one is APC, the other is a heavy duy, but no name one).

First, I tried plugging it in ungrounded. Buzz galore through the speakers, and errant shocks when touching the chassis of the strips, any device, or playing guitar. The APC strip had a ground fault light that was lit up. All that together to me usually screams grounding problems. So I found a grounded adapter (I have one that slides over the euro plug and has tabs to pick up the top and bottom grounding on the plug, not the female grounding socket in the plug itself, then coverts to a more 'american' style two blade with ground connection). Then I located a grounded connection in the house, and tested it. Plugged in my transformer, and while the APC still had a ground fault lit up, everything seemed to be running normal.

After about a week, I left on the transformer for a while, maybe 8 hours or so, playing music and the like while I was home on a Saturday. I went to turn it off, and it didn't. It "chattered" until I physically unplugged it. I opened the transformer and physically inspected it. It is an autotransformer, which is one big winding with mutiple secondary side taps. The "chatter" was a clear relay contact that was cycling a few times a second (not really fast) when plugged in.

So I plugged it back in, and it was the same. Worse yet, the errant shocks on the strip chassis were back. But no speaker buzz. I isolated everything and reversed the plug in the adapter, and it would work, but not turn off. So I unloaded the transformer and unplugged everything, turned the adapter back around to original, and plugged it in, and the transformer itself was fat and happy, back to normal, no shocks.

I read around, and found that with autotransformers, sometimes they run into issues with surge protectors with varistors (variable resistors) being plugged into them that bridge the neutral and ground for monitoring. Could this be the reason the problem came back? Overloaded the strips? Did I "lose" the ground by bridging over to neutral?

I have a cheapie multimeter, and a very nice fluke for testing, but never dealt with varistors before, so not exactly sure what to check to confirm/deny what it might be. I will be disecting one of the strips tonight to look for physical damage. I can go back to my original plan of grounding everything myself with a copper rod (I am on the second floor, so not too big a deal), but wanted to see if I am just dealing with grounding again, or if this is something more complicated.

Here's to hoping Crossy sees this!

Thanks in advance

[Crossy]

Hi Louie.

Yup, I've seen it. Do you have a URL for the transformer (just post it without the http etc and the system should let you, or drop it in a PM to me) Mr Google is no help finding the device you have

I wonder if your supply was sufficiently low to confuse the transformer (causing the relay to chatter). If it truly is an auto-transformer it is important that the incoming L and N are correctly connected otherwise your outgoing 110V Neutral will be at 110V above ground, not a happy situation

I've not heard of issues with varistors and ATs but you never know as this unit seems a bit clever.

[LouiefromTexas]

Hello Crossy,

Thanks for the quick response. Sorry it took me until this afternoon to notice. I will be more dilligent, as I want to get back to having fun with my stuff!!!

Here is the best link for the product (will PM you with it as well);

www.amazon.com/VOLTAGE-REGULATOR-STABILIZER-TRANSFORMER-110V-240V/dp/B001IYIN4M/ref=sr_1_50?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1248155478&sr=1-50

Sold under VST, SIMRAN, and probably a host of others.

Couple of updates... Took the power strips out of the loop and plugged in a guitar amp direct. For the hour that I played, it seemed to fix everything... Connected it back to the strip, and errant shocks. Also, I connected a string of christmas lights to the strip and plugged in the transformer both ways at the ground. One way connected, it would turn off. The other it would not, and the lights stayed on, but were reduced brightness and would not blink properly (likely the L and N backwards case that you mentioned).

Also, I took one of the power strips apart and notice it has three MOVs (metal oxide varistors I assume) on a small PCB. It smelled funny, but not necessarily burnt, with no char marks. Then again, I don't know what MOVs are supposed to smell like.

I will snap some pics tonight,

Hope this helps

[LouiefromTexas]

Also, here is a description from another site;

VSD 3000 VOLTAGE STABILIZER

• 3000 Watt Maximum Capacity, heavy-duty continuous use transformer
  
• On/Off switch with indicator lamp ป Analog meter on front of unit measures exact input voltage
  
• Converts 110/120 Volt up to 220/240 Volt OR Converts 220/240 Volt down to 110/120 Volt
  
• This stabilizer can regulate big range fluctuating voltage into general voltage output.
  
• Input Voltage AC 75V-130V or 180V-260V.
  
• Output Voltage: AC 110V+-4% or AC220V+-4%.
  
• Unit shuts off automatically when input voltage is out of range
  
• Unit resets automatically when input voltage is back in safe range
  
• 4 outlets on rear of unit (outlets accept 3 or 2 prong US plugs and 2 prong Euro/Asian plugs)
  
• Insulated power cord is hard wired with a grounded European Shucko plug also good for Asian outlets
  
• Comes with 2 prong USA plug to enable non-grounded use in the USA, Canada and Mexico (grounded 3 prong US adapter also available -Item No. VP 13)
  
• Easy to carry with attached handle, heavy-duty metal casing
  
• Fuse Protected
  

[Crossy]

Hmmm, there certainly seem to be issues with the power strips, are they US manufacture (110V) or local 220V ones? Have you tried different power strips?

What input voltage are you reading on the meter?

[LouiefromTexas]

They are US manufacture, designed for 110v use. The analog meter on the transformer reads a little hot, just over the 240v, but I don't know the accuracy of it either.

For local strips... is there any detriment to using 230v ones in 110v service? Or spring for some dual rated? I would actually like to get some cheap ones (cheap as in proper ground, but distribution only... no pcb or other 'help').

If I got the local Tesco though, and that works, then what about surge for the computer equipment? Can I get a 230v surge protector and stick it on the primary side of the transformer to cover that?

[Crossy]

They are US manufacture, designed for 110v use. The analog meter on the transformer reads a little hot, just over the 240v, but I don't know the accuracy of it either.

For local strips... is there any detriment to using 230v ones in 110v service? Or spring for some dual rated? I would actually like to get some cheap ones (cheap as in proper ground, but distribution only... no pcb or other 'help').

If I got the local Tesco though, and that works, then what about surge for the computer equipment? Can I get a 230v surge protector and stick it on the primary side of the transformer to cover that?

I would do just that, I'll bet you've upset your US strips somewhere along the line, just snip out the varistors

No issue with 220V strips on 110V

[longball53098]

Don't trust ANY of the power strips you buy here in LOS. I have re-wired at least 3 of them as the units had the live and neutral reversed in all cases. Plus the cheaper ones used such poor workmanship that the soldering of the wires inside came apart. The material used for the plug-in is poorly made and cannot hold a plug tightly after just one or two uses.

Won-Pro seems a bit better and Toshino not too bad but they all cannot be trusted.

Edited July 22, 2009 by longball53098

[LouiefromTexas]

I have asked around to some computer guys, and they seem to use Toshino.

I opened up one of my US 110vac strips and took a pic. I may just bridge across the pcb and use this one.

Also included a pic of the transformer's guts. Sorry for the pic quality... freakin' underpowered compact flourescents!!

Any recommendation on 220v surge protectors for the primary side?

Lastly, for everyone else, if you look reeeaally close, you will see the euro grounded adapter I use. Just in case you can't find the others mentioned in this thread.

[ronswelters2]

Sorry for such a simple question, but I don't see how you download attachments on posts to this forum, eg the lead post here, an attachment number is given but you can't click on it....

Thanks