Domestic Electrical Wiring

[elkangorito]

Well,

I have my ELCBs the PEA have provided power and the electrican has wired it all up, he got it wrong to begin with not connecting the Earth pigtail on most of the , square D, ELCB so the test button did not work. Now rewired we tested everything and failed -- almost any device plugged in and turned on causes the circuit breakers to trip. A mobile phone charger does not a fan or kettle does.

Anybody got any suggestions for troubleshooting?

Can you sketch how it's connected up and post here (or email to me) please. The reason ELCB's do NOT normally need a ground connection to operate correctly.

Or try looking at the consumer unit drawings on http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring and comparing with what you have.

Hi guys,

Thought I'd better make an appearance now that I've had my little holiday.

These ELCB's sound like the old type. Remember them Crossy?

By the way Ian, was your electrical installation "insulation tested"? It seems that this test is almost never conducted in Thailand and yet it is a quite important test...can save time & worries in the future.

[Crossy]

Hi guys,

Thought I'd better make an appearance now that I've had my little holiday.

These ELCB's sound like the old type. Remember them Crossy?

By the way Ian, was your electrical installation "insulation tested"? It seems that this test is almost never conducted in Thailand and yet it is a quite important test...can save time & worries in the future.

Welcome back elkangorito I trust you will be around for a while. Meantimes, I'm in Rotterdam surrounded by tulips and with an increasingly frustrated client, so my posts will be erratic and at odd times.

I'm sure you can help ianc, I bet it's got something to do with our wonderful MEN link (wrong side of the ELCB maybe).

I'm back in BKK start sept. BEER then?

[ianc66]

Hi guys,

Thought I'd better make an appearance now that I've had my little holiday.

These ELCB's sound like the old type. Remember them Crossy?

By the way Ian, was your electrical installation "insulation tested"? It seems that this test is almost never conducted in Thailand and yet it is a quite important test...can save time & worries in the future.

Welcome back elkangorito I trust you will be around for a while. Meantimes, I'm in Rotterdam surrounded by tulips and with an increasingly frustrated client, so my posts will be erratic and at odd times.

I'm sure you can help ianc, I bet it's got something to do with our wonderful MEN link (wrong side of the ELCB maybe).

I'm back in BKK start sept. BEER then?

Hi guys,

Thought I'd better make an appearance now that I've had my little holiday.

These ELCB's sound like the old type. Remember them Crossy?

By the way Ian, was your electrical installation "insulation tested"? It seems that this test is almost never conducted in Thailand and yet it is a quite important test...can save time & worries in the future.

Problem solved:-

The elcbs were mis-wired I've got to say I think the problem here is mostly caused by Square-D and their coyness the devices come with no instructions as to how they should be wired, any way sorted it out.

The models I've used are QO-RDCX and QO-MBGX which appear to be current devices, can't give you a URL for these thanks the rather bizarre e-catalogue.

As for insulation testing -- correct it is almost never carried out in Thailand. And it's a rock I'm not prepared to beat my head against.

Frankly I'm feeling a little tired it has been like rolling a rock uphill, issues in order:-

distribution boxes to be located sensibly not in your face. As your guests enter your gracious residence ' Admire the fine Monet prints and distribution box on the wall over there'.

distribution boxes to be at working height of about 5 feet not 8 'yes dear I'm fixing the the problem whilst standing on this rickety chair with a torch (simultaneous translation -- flashlight) gripped between my teeth' Also I've wired for and got fixed battery emergency lights.

Then at electrical distributors trying to get three core cable 'why you want earth cost money' and 'why you want green black OK' really you couldn't make it up.

Then wiring well yes the electrician did use decent yellow PVC conduit and put it at 90 degree rather than slanting across a surface. (Although it would be much more entertaining when hanging my Monet prints to drill the conduit). Objected to using metal wall boxes 'peng' expensive (the plastic ones in my current house allow the sockets to flex in an entertaining manner) -- pointed out it was my money.

I finally managed to persuade him that twisting together and putting a bit of insulation tape was not a viable long term connection method in all cases.

Panic over the pool 'man from pool supplier say need 45 amps' -- man from pool supplier talking about different pool.

Sufficient and properly located sockets throughout, at TV points for instance 6 power and two Co-ax at 800mm from the floor. There will be no adaptors in this house.

Dimmers for the lights. Two way switches so you can cross a room at night with lights and turn them off. Switches for bathrooms outside bathrooms, extractor fans in bathrooms

Shuko sockets for Shuko equipped appliances sourced and installed.

ELCB sourced and finally installed.

MEN link done.

Fans from INDEX 50% faulty -- there's a company who won't be enjoying my custom again.

Anyway the electrics are almost finished and I will be testing well.

However (and slightly off topic) the electrics are just a part of the entire house building process, my builder and his regular team have done very well (we will gloss over the soffits), various subcontractors goodish to very good (although the renderers had filthy habits and employed a youth whose inability to steer a wheelbarrow was astonishing).

And after it all what will delay my moving in, well probably the woodwork -- not the electrics and for that I thank this forum.

[elkangorito]

Problem solved:-

The elcbs were mis-wired I've got to say I think the problem here is mostly caused by Square-D and their coyness the devices come with no instructions as to how they should be wired, any way sorted it out.

The models I've used are QO-RDCX and QO-MBGX which appear to be current devices, can't give you a URL for these thanks the rather bizarre e-catalogue.

As for insulation testing -- correct it is almost never carried out in Thailand. And it's a rock I'm not prepared to beat my head against.

Frankly I'm feeling a little tired it has been like rolling a rock uphill, issues in order:-

distribution boxes to be located sensibly not in your face. As your guests enter your gracious residence ' Admire the fine Monet prints and distribution box on the wall over there'.

distribution boxes to be at working height of about 5 feet not 8 'yes dear I'm fixing the the problem whilst standing on this rickety chair with a torch (simultaneous translation -- flashlight) gripped between my teeth' Also I've wired for and got fixed battery emergency lights.

Then at electrical distributors trying to get three core cable 'why you want earth cost money' and 'why you want green black OK' really you couldn't make it up.

Then wiring well yes the electrician did use decent yellow PVC conduit and put it at 90 degree rather than slanting across a surface. (Although it would be much more entertaining when hanging my Monet prints to drill the conduit). Objected to using metal wall boxes 'peng' expensive (the plastic ones in my current house allow the sockets to flex in an entertaining manner) -- pointed out it was my money.

I finally managed to persuade him that twisting together and putting a bit of insulation tape was not a viable long term connection method in all cases.

Panic over the pool 'man from pool supplier say need 45 amps' -- man from pool supplier talking about different pool.

Sufficient and properly located sockets throughout, at TV points for instance 6 power and two Co-ax at 800mm from the floor. There will be no adaptors in this house.

Dimmers for the lights. Two way switches so you can cross a room at night with lights and turn them off. Switches for bathrooms outside bathrooms, extractor fans in bathrooms

Shuko sockets for Shuko equipped appliances sourced and installed.

ELCB sourced and finally installed.

MEN link done.

Fans from INDEX 50% faulty -- there's a company who won't be enjoying my custom again.

Anyway the electrics are almost finished and I will be testing well.

However (and slightly off topic) the electrics are just a part of the entire house building process, my builder and his regular team have done very well (we will gloss over the soffits), various subcontractors goodish to very good (although the renderers had filthy habits and employed a youth whose inability to steer a wheelbarrow was astonishing).

And after it all what will delay my moving in, well probably the woodwork -- not the electrics and for that I thank this forum.

Sounds like you've got it pretty well sorted Ian. Well done

Just 1 question....do you have an Earth Stake outside? If so, how is it connected?

[ianc66]

I saw the earth stake being put in, copper 1500mm just inside an outside hole drilled through slab and stake hammered home thick wire clamped to stake and brought unbrokem a metre or so to the distribution box.

[khunandy]

Well done that man :)

G'day Crossy,

I was just wondering if you are an offshore worker. The reason I ask this is because I work on Asian offshore oil rigs and the client usually insists on a number of "STOP" cards being submitted by expats each week. Most of these are made up bits of bullshit and usually refer to observing safe work practices around the facility.

"That Man" features all the time in the stop cards submitted by expats eg: "Saw a man walking up stairs with one hand on railing...Well done that man" or "Saw a man sitting on toilet eating grapes and reading the newspaper, well done that man for multi tasking"

It got to a point where we made a safety certificate in recognision for "That Man" for his outstandingly safe working practices...the Chinese just didn't get it and treated us with suspicion for not revealing "That mans" identity.

"That man" has now been banned from contesting in any safety awards

Cheers

Andy

[elkangorito]

I am now living in Pattaya & am available on weekends to provide a service as long as it's not too far away.

[Crossy]

Well done that man

I was just wondering if you are an offshore worker.

Royal Navy actually. Be assured that "That Man" is alive and well and serving in Her Majestys ships

BTW Welcome back to LOS Elkangorito, hope everything goes to plan.

I'm off back to Rotterdam on sunday I must really have upset someone.

Edited October 9, 2006 by Crossy

[stickyb]

Can you give me some advice about checking earth connections? When my house was built i specified i wanted 3 pin plus in most places, with earthing.

Now, having moved in, i find that some of the plugs don't appear to be earthed. Using a standard multi-meter, i can measure 230VAC across phase and neutral, but nothing between phase and ground (which i would expect) and nothing between phase and earth (which i would not expect)

I remember years ago in UK having a very handy gadget for caravanning that was built into a 3 pin plus and had 3 neons on the top. It would indicate all ok on electrical installations, or phase/neutral reversed or no earth. How i wish i had it now!

Thanks

[Crossy]

I remember years ago in UK having a very handy gadget for caravanning that was built into a 3 pin plus and had 3 neons on the top. It would indicate all ok on electrical installations, or phase/neutral reversed or no earth. How i wish i had it now!

You've done the standard test, the results you SHOULD see are:-

Phase / earth = 220V

Neutral / earth = about 0V

Phase / neutral = 220V

If you have 0V between phase and earth you have a problem. NOTE Phase and neutral are the opposite way round to a UK plug (phase is on the left if you have earth at the top).

I was going to build some of the 'neon tester' beasties (a UK one won't work correctly because of the phase/neutral reversal), I may revitalise the idea

Time to trace your ground wires from the outlets, they should go to a ground bar near your distribution board and thence to a ground rod.

EDIT It's possible (but not likely) that your neutral is not correctly earthed at the transformer. This is a job for the electicity authority to investigate if your ground is correctly connected.

Edited October 17, 2006 by Crossy

[stickyb]

Thanks for the input Crossy.

Having done somemore tests, i have at least oneplug thast shows about 40V neutral/earth, 180V earth/phase, and 230V phase/neutral.

All my phase/neutral checks seem to show about 230V - and it's a new meter!

It's made a bit complicated by the fact that the house supply is 3 phase (needed for some of the pumps) and i am not sure which plugs are on which phase.

Do you have a circuit for the neon tester?

[Crossy]

Thanks for the input Crossy.

Having done somemore tests, i have at least oneplug thast shows about 40V neutral/earth, 180V earth/phase, and 230V phase/neutral.

All my phase/neutral checks seem to show about 230V - and it's a new meter!

It's made a bit complicated by the fact that the house supply is 3 phase (needed for some of the pumps) and i am not sure which plugs are on which phase.

Do you have a circuit for the neon tester?

Neon tester here :- http://www.web-ee.com/Electronic-Projects/...lug/index.shtml

Your voltage readings are scary to say the least. Reckon you need a GOOD electrician to check it over (different to the chap who installed it).

[elkangorito]

Hi Crossy,

You back in town yet? I've just started a new job at a technical college just out of Pattaya. When I get a chance (& some money), I'll head into BKK & maybe we can catch up.

Incidently, I now know why the electrics are poor here in the LOS...it all comes from how the guys are taught at college.

Anyway, see you soon.

[johng]

is it just me or is Crossy's website down ?

[Crossy]

is it just me or is Crossy's website down ?

Not just you, there was a major problem at the server farm where it lives I'm trying to sort temporary hosting.

EDIT Temporary site is up and here http://crossy.servebeer.com/wiring/ may be a little slow at times

Edited October 26, 2006 by Crossy

[elkangorito]

For those who are interested, I have recently discovered that the correct conduit for electrical work is yellow. I am yet to establish it's specifications & limitations. I therefore advise that at the moment, yellow conduit can be used in electrical installations but only above ground.

I'll post further information as it comes to light.

[Crossy]

Hi Elkangorito, been a while mate.

I assume UNDERGROUND electrical services are still black with red tracer or solid red.

BTW, you think Thai installations are iffy, you should see some of the stuff done by our Dutch contractors. Not hazardous (only the Thais do that) but sometimes just plain dumb.

[elkangorito]

Hi Crossy,

Yeah mate, it has been a while. I had mobile telephone problems plus a new job plus no money for a while.

Anyway, I quized the Thai electrical staff here at the college & they could not find (& did not seem to know of) any standard that related to PVC electrical conduit. They couldn't even find any derating info for cables in PVC under given conditions. Didn't surprise me. I will quiz them further during the course of this week. They did verify that the star point of distribution transformers are earthed (or should be), which means that the MEN system will work quite well. I drew them a diagram about the MEN system & they had never heard of it.

Anyway Crossy, you back in town yet or are you still picking tulips?

[elkangorito]

For those who are interested, I have recently discovered that the correct conduit for electrical work is yellow. I am yet to establish it's specifications & limitations. I therefore advise that at the moment, yellow conduit can be used in electrical installations but only above ground.

I'll post further information as it comes to light.

Some more info; I've been informed by a Thai teacher that the electrical conduit is rated at 70 degrees Celsius & can be buried underground at a depth greater than 300mm. As far as UV characteristics are concerned, I can't find/get any info. So, if yellow conduit is used in a situation whereby it is subject to UV radiation, painting it with an acrylic paint will provide the necessary protection against UV rays.

[JGA]

Can anybody tell me where to find high quality earth leakage circuit breakers (ELCB) in Bangkok? I have three under-sink hot water heaters in my condo and the breakers need to be replaced. They were probably installed about 12 years ago and are rated at 15ma/100ms. A few people on this thread have stated that 100ms is much too long and recommended a 20-30ms range. I went to a number of electrical supply shops near Chinatown today, but all of the breakers were 15ma/100ms. Homepro has ELCBs with 30ma/30ms specs for about 500 baht. Good enough or can I find better?

-Jeff

[elkangorito]

Can anybody tell me where to find high quality earth leakage circuit breakers (ELCB) in Bangkok? I have three under-sink hot water heaters in my condo and the breakers need to be replaced. They were probably installed about 12 years ago and are rated at 15ma/100ms. A few people on this thread have stated that 100ms is much too long and recommended a 20-30ms range. I went to a number of electrical supply shops near Chinatown today, but all of the breakers were 15ma/100ms. Homepro has ELCBs with 30ma/30ms specs for about 500 baht. Good enough or can I find better?

-Jeff

Hi Jeff,

The acceptable minimum standard for ELCB's (general domestic use) is a maximum of 30mA leakage current with a maximum trip time of 20 mS. But because hot water systems can develop a high residual leakage current as they age, which could cause nuisance trips with an ELCB, it is HIGHLY recommended that you properly earth the hot water system as previously stated in this topic.

Earthing Doc and Circuit Protection Doc

Try Schneider Electric (Square D) as follows;

Factory

540 Soi 9, Bangpoo Industrial Estate

Sukhumvit Road, Samut Prakan 10280

Tel +66 (0) 2324 6000

Fax +66 (0) 2324 6099

Hope this helps.

[Crossy]

All Elkangorito's documents and more useful stuff is available here:-

http://www.crossy.co.uk/wiring

Yes, it's working properly again

And yes, I'm still stuck in a cold and damp Rotterdam

Edited November 16, 2006 by Crossy

[stickyb]

I must say thanks to Elkangorito not only for the documents he has published, but also for the personal help he gave me over the weekend. As i mentioned earlier in this thread, i had a number of problems with the wiring in a new house, and Elkangorito was kind enough to come and cast an eye over the installation in person. He has given me a list of sensible changes which will improve the safety no end. In general it would seem to me that local electricians are fine with a two wire single phase house wiring job that is just a few lights and 2 pin plugs, but when it comes to a western style house that needs a 3 phase supply and all plugs 3 pin, water heaters, etc, it is really much better to get the advice of an expert such a the kind gentlemen that are running this thread.

Good on ya mate, you may just have saved my life.

i suppose my house will now feature as a "how not do do it" example in your teaching!!

[robint]

elkangarito

quote

The acceptable minimum standard for ELCB's (general domestic use) is a maximum of 30mA leakage current with a maximum trip time of 20 mS. But because hot water systems can develop a high residual leakage current as they age, which could cause nuisance trips with an ELCB, it is HIGHLY recommended that you properly earth the hot water system as previously stated in this topic.

unquote

Agreed, immersion heaters MUST have an efficient earth visibly attached, but are you suggesting that this will prevent nuisance trips from the ELCB???????????????

Edited November 21, 2006 by robint

[Crossy]

Agreed, immersion heaters MUST have an efficient earth visibly attached, but are you suggesting that this will prevent nuisance trips from the ELCB???????????????

I'll hop in here

I think elkangorito is suggesting that with a good ground you can use a slower / less sensitive ELCB that won't nuisance trip, without compromising safety in the bathroom.

[robint]

Well a little knowledge is a dangerous thing - especially with the domestic electricity supply in LOS in the hands of amateurs and worse still, cowboy locals. Sad thing is that in the LOS, its difficult to find a technically qualified and time served competant electrician (like you can in EU, US and the antipodes). Flangs are not permitted to work as electricians even if supremely qualified.

To put it on the line, an immersion heater that develops a significant leakage will trip the ELCB, properly assisted by the tank earth lead.

Such a trip must not be considered a nuisance trip. The fault must be corrected (such as a new immersion heater element - preferably japanese or aussie import)

In the UK, immersion heaters have always been treated separately by the regs aver since my brush with the 14th edition. A senior lecturer who served on the advisory committee simply refered to statistics for domestic electrical accidents (which is why bathrooms, farmyards and caravan sites feature quite heavily) We use copper plumbing which is ideal for spreading leakage currents under fault conditions. Worst case scenario is where you grab both the hot and cold bath taps which might be a different potentials - nasty. Even 24v could cause lock on under the wrong circumstances. BTW if any of you are marine boating enthusiasts, notice how you can get a significant tingle from a 12v car battery in a salty wet environment - try it. A diver in the sea can be paralysed by as little as 8v head to toe. There was a case in the papers where one of the kids swimming in a river was electrocuted and it was surmised that this was caused by leakge currents from a nearby welding shop - sounds far fetched to me but TIT

I have always been amazed at how trivially a shower water heater is treated (an ELCB is not mandatory). If you look around pattaya and bkk guest houses, note how many of these heaters are not earthed and the cheap ones dont even have a built in ELCB - lethal when they get old and develop faults. Fatalities have been reported

Personally i wouldnt have an immersion heater in the LOS. I would prefer a propane water heater, but mostly get my warm water from the sun which shines on my storage tank - its free and quite sufficient for my family

you really cant be too careful and familiarity breeds carelessness as i experienced the other day when i went to plug in a battery charger. I got a nasty shock from the plug because i was barefooted standing on concrete. It turned out that rats had gnawed away at the wire insulation exposing the conductors - there you go

[elkangorito]

Agreed, immersion heaters MUST have an efficient earth visibly attached, but are you suggesting that this will prevent nuisance trips from the ELCB???????????????

I'll hop in here

I think elkangorito is suggesting that with a good ground you can use a slower / less sensitive ELCB that won't nuisance trip, without compromising safety in the bathroom.

THanks Crossy but this is not quite what I'm suggesting.

Firstly, I'd like to define "leakage current" as in reference to devices like heating elements & electric motors. In these cases, leakage current is from a conductor THROUGH a substance that has been designed to be an electrical insulator, to another conductor (in this case, Earth). In electric motors & heating elements, leakage currents of around 100 mA can be expected in old equipment, which is why 100mA ELCB units are normally used with this equipment in industrial applications (not domestic). Having said this, the MAXIMUM allowable current that can flow through a human is 30 mA. Combined with a circuit breaker MAXIMUM trip time of 20 mS & you have a life saving ELCB.

My suggestion was nothing to do with reducing nuisance tripping. It was more about ensuring that the equipment is earthed in the case that the "electronic" ELCB should fail..."Belt & Braces".

Here's a little something from ASNZ 3000:2000 about expected leakage current. Please note 6.3.3.3.2 parts (a) & (;

6.3.3.3 Insulation resistance

6.3.3.3.1 General

An insulation resistance test is necessary to ensure that the insulation resistance between all live conductors and earth or, as the case may be, all live parts and earth is adequate to ensure the integrity of the insulation.

This is to prevent—

(a) electric shock hazards from inadvertent contact; and

( fire hazards from short-circuits; and

© equipment damage.

The integrity of the insulation is stressed by applying a direct current at 500 V. The insulation resistance tester used shall be able to maintain its terminal voltage within +20%, −10% of the nominal open-circuit terminal voltage, when measuring a resistance of 1 MΩ on the 500 V range or 10 MΩ on the 1000 V range.

NOTE: Care may be required with the application of the insulation resistance test to electronic equipment and surge protective devices to prevent damage to the devices.

6.3.3.3.2 Results

The insulation resistance between live and earthed parts of an electrical installation or parts thereof shall be not less than 1 MΩ. The value of 1 MΩ may be obtained with appliances disconnected.

The value of 1 MΩ may be reduced to —

(a) 0.01 MΩ for sheathed heating elements of appliances; or

( a value permitted in the Standard applicable to electrical equipment.

This last paragraph suggests that heating elements have an expected higher than normal leakage current.

[elkangorito]

I must say thanks to Elkangorito not only for the documents he has published, but also for the personal help he gave me over the weekend. As i mentioned earlier in this thread, i had a number of problems with the wiring in a new house, and Elkangorito was kind enough to come and cast an eye over the installation in person. He has given me a list of sensible changes which will improve the safety no end. In general it would seem to me that local electricians are fine with a two wire single phase house wiring job that is just a few lights and 2 pin plugs, but when it comes to a western style house that needs a 3 phase supply and all plugs 3 pin, water heaters, etc, it is really much better to get the advice of an expert such a the kind gentlemen that are running this thread.

Good on ya mate, you may just have saved my life.

i suppose my house will now feature as a "how not do do it" example in your teaching!!

Hi Sticky & thanks for your comments. You've got a bloody lovely home & I'd hate to see it & you go up in smoke because of some simple wiring/switchboard/circuit breaker errors. By the way, should you need any work done, please feel free to call me. Maybe I can help. This goes for other people as well.

[Crossy]

THanks Crossy but this is not quite what I'm suggesting.

Duh, I reckon my brain has been fried by looking at too many tulips

You are of course 100% on target (as usual).

[elkangorito]

THanks Crossy but this is not quite what I'm suggesting.

Duh, I reckon my brain has been fried by looking at too many tulips

You are of course 100% on target (as usual).

So Crossy, when do you get your Dutch passport? Do you get paid in Tulips? Can you make something usefull from tulips, like an alcoholic beverage? Didn't Vincent Van Gof come from Tulip Land?

BTW, still waiting for my Non-B. Once I get it, I'll pay you a visit in BKK...if you ever manage to escape tulipville.