Cisgender -- is this word working for you?

[Jingthing]

I have to admit I only first encountered the word CISGENDER this year but now I'm seeing it more often.

Have you been using this word?

I am not entirely comfortable with it and doubt I will be using it myself, but of course if it slips into mainstream usage, it's as valid as any word.

I reckon some people will attack it as being over the top PC. To me it's just seems kind of silly.

It kinds of reminds me of people referring to the "heterosexual community" in reference to the gay community. That seems very silly to me as the vast majority of the world identifies as heterosexual how can there be any such thing as a heterosexual community? Yes I get it that many gay people don't buy into the concept of gay community either, but one can't deny the minority status of gay identified persons.

Cisgender and cissexual (often abbreviated to simply cis) describe related types of gender identity where an individual's self-perception of their gender matches the sex they were assigned at birth. Sociologists Kristen Schilt and Laurel Westbrook define cisgender as a label for "individuals who have a match between the gender they were assigned at birth, their bodies, and their personal identity," complementingtransgender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

Edited October 26, 2013 by Jingthing

[Dr Robert]

Sounds to me like a couple of early career researchers trying to make a name for themselves and get funding for some pet project, rather than making a sensible contribution to knowledge and understanding. I can't see any point in labelling the obvious in a new way. It's a common way of getting attention (to make up a new set of catchy words)...academic advertising copy, futile, trendy nonsense.

[isanbirder]

An extremely silly word! The prefix 'cis' means 'this side of'.... but I don't know what 'this side of gender' would mean.

But then, as you say, JT, if it becomes common usage, we're stuck with it. I can't see that it would be very useful, anyway.

If you're talking about words, isn't 'gay' a silly usage for 'homosexual'? But there it is!

[manarak]

Well, being myself blessed with an asperger-type personality, I know that psychology also has a word to describe "normal" persons: they are normotypical.

It seems that when there is a word to describe something, its opposite is also needed.

[Jingthing]

The gay thing is a done deal.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ToddWeston]

Never heard it and will never use it - just another label created by the label makers

[Jingthing]

Never heard it and will never use it - just another label created by the label makers

We do need words to describe things. You just labelled label makers!

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[onthemoon]

I learned that word many years ago when involved with transgender people. It is quite common in the webboards.

And it seems to make sense. For example, a male-to-female transgender person wants to be recognised as a woman, but there are also women that were born as females (obviously). So they don't like to use the term "real woman" for those and use the word cis-woman instead (as opposed to trans-woman). The cis-women on those webboards also used that term to refer to themselves.

In Thailand, the way out is to term trans-women is the "third sex", but that is not internationally done so. However, that may be why many here in Thailand have not come across the term before.

[Jingthing]

Yes I understand how the word may be useful among transgender people and academics writing about related subjects.

[Scott]

A post containing foreign script has been deleted. Foreign languages are not allowed on the forum, with the exception of the Thai language forum. Feel free to post, but use English only.

[Jingthing]

When I first saw the cisgender word I thought it was some kind of major editing error. Then I thought, what is this, short for SISSYgender? It seems doubtful this word will spread too much but we'll see.

[LeCharivari]

As far as I can see "cis-gender" refers to those who are both born into and identify with the same gender, to differentiate them from those who are born into one gender but identify as another who are "transgender". While the exact number of those who have GRS worldwide is not known and estimates vary it appears to be around 1 in 12,000 men and 1 in 34,000 women, which seems to indicate that 99.99% of the population are "cis-gender". Making up some term to refer to such a large majority of the population to differentiate them from a tiny minority for whom a perfectly reasonable term exists, particularly when the far more understandable term "gender-normative" already exists and is widely understood, and more particularly when the minority choose to further sub-divide themselves, seems pointless to the point of absurdity.

If its not acceptable to call someone "trans-gendered", why is it any more acceptable to call everyone else "cis-gendered"?

Its a bit like calling people who are right-handed "cis-handed" so as not to offend those who are left-handed, or those who aren't overweight "cis-weighted" so as not to offend those who are.

Use of the term "third sex" (in English or Thai) for male-female transgenders is not a Thai custom but is a Western import - Thais customarily used the Thai language equivalent of the term "second kind of woman" . The term "third sex" caused a lot of confusion when the Same-sex Marriage Bill was first introduced following the 2006 military takeover so it is now very much out of favour with Thai gay groups. There's more on the third sex and its origins and uses here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/674944-third-sex-becomes-a-political-force/

[onthemoon]

As far as I can see "cis-gender" refers to those who are both born into and identify with the same gender, to differentiate them from those who are born into one gender but identify as another who are "transgender". While the exact number of those who have GRS worldwide is not known and estimates vary it appears to be around 1 in 12,000 men and 1 in 34,000 women, which seems to indicate that 99.99% of the population are "cis-gender". Making up some term to refer to such a large majority of the population to differentiate them from a tiny minority for whom a perfectly reasonable term exists, particularly when the far more understandable term "gender-normative" already exists and is widely understood, and more particularly when the minority choose to further sub-divide themselves, seems pointless to the point of absurdity.

If its not acceptable to call someone "trans-gendered", why is it any more acceptable to call everyone else "cis-gendered"?

Its a bit like calling people who are right-handed "cis-handed" so as not to offend those who are left-handed, or those who aren't overweight "cis-weighted" so as not to offend those who are.

Use of the term "third sex" (in English or Thai) for male-female transgenders is not a Thai custom but is a Western import - Thais customarily used the Thai language equivalent of the term "second kind of woman" . The term "third sex" caused a lot of confusion when the Same-sex Marriage Bill was first introduced following the 2006 military takeover so it is now very much out of favour with Thai gay groups. There's more on the third sex and its origins and uses here: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/674944-third-sex-becomes-a-political-force/

Why would it not be acceptable to call someone transgendered?

I don't know the meaning of "cis-", but in the transgendered world, a cis-gendered person is simply a person who was lucky enough to have been born into a body that corresponds with their sexuality. I don't see anything wrong with that word.

If you don't mix with transgendered people a lot, you will have no need for this word in your everyday life, so I don't really understand what this discussion is about.

[Jingthing]

...

If you don't mix with transgendered people a lot, you will have no need for this word in your everyday life, so I don't really understand what this discussion is about.

Well, I started to see the word in some press articles that were not academic articles and were not only targeted to a transgender audience. I had to look up the word at first as I really had no clue about the meaning. It's not everyday that there is an English word in the press that is so new to me that I have never even heard of it before. So I was wondering whether this word is even known to people in general.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Scott

[Scott]

I have never heard seen the word either. It's good to know these things, just in case it comes up in a conversation. I have worked with a few transgenders and there is a fair amount of miscommunication in conversations about that community.

[Morakot]

No, the word doesn't work. Because of its normative connotation that forces a specific gender construct onto a specific biological/ genetic body in a rather dualistic fashion. It entirely ignores that gender is a performance to varying degrees, regardless of biological or chromosomal make up.

Please add to long list of useless words.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Morakot

[Jingthing]

Well, if you're deaf people those who aren't are the hearing, if you're blind those who aren't are the sighted ...

[Morakot]

if you're blind those who aren't are the sighted ...

Is this a wind-up JT or are you posting from 1950's time warp?

Visual impairment come in all forms and shapes, beyond the insinuated black-and-white compartmentalisation: e.g. "partially sighted", "low vision", "legally blind", "totally blind", myopic, "hyperopic", "colour-blind", "temporary blinded", and what not... Despite the fact the gender performance is not an impairment as such, but something to be done in an affirmative way and possibly celebrated.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Morakot

[Jingthing]

One could argue gender identity comes in a range as does sexual orientation.

No, not a windup or time warp.

I am seeing the value of a word with the meaning of cisgender at this point but I still don't really LIKE that particular word.

It's really clunky and how many people know the root word: CIS?

[Morakot]

One could argue gender identity comes in a range as does sexual orientation.

I am seeing the value of a word with the meaning of cisgender at this point but I still don't really LIKE that particular word.

It's really clunky and how many people know the root word: CIS?

Yes, performances of gender identity range across a whole spectrum. The prefix "trans" quite usefully expresses identity changes -- that a performance might be different. That makes sense. Cis- (meaning: on this side [of]) however is rather problematic, because spectra don't have sides; spectra only have arbitrary points on a line, which makes the idea of "sides" pointless. There is no side that (yet) remains to be trans-ed. All there is are (manifested) [im]possibilities of change; change that could be minute or drastic, permanent or temporarily.

[Jingthing]

Is there a SLANG word for this?

[onthemoon]

...

If you don't mix with transgendered people a lot, you will have no need for this word in your everyday life, so I don't really understand what this discussion is about.

Well, I started to see the word in some press articles that were not academic articles and were not only targeted to a transgender audience. I had to look up the word at first as I really had no clue about the meaning. It's not everyday that there is an English word in the press that is so new to me that I have never even heard of it before. So I was wondering whether this word is even known to people in general.

Well of course. I see now where you are coming from. I haven't come across the term outside of the transgender community yet.

[onthemoon]

One could argue gender identity comes in a range as does sexual orientation.

I am seeing the value of a word with the meaning of cisgender at this point but I still don't really LIKE that particular word.

It's really clunky and how many people know the root word: CIS?

Yes, performances of gender identity range across a whole spectrum. The prefix "trans" quite usefully expresses identity changes -- that a performance might be different. That makes sense. Cis- (meaning: on this side [of]) however is rather problematic, because spectra don't have sides; spectra only have arbitrary points on a line, which makes the idea of "sides" pointless. There is no side that (yet) remains to be trans-ed. All there is are (manifested) [im]possibilities of change; change that could be minute or drastic, permanent or temporarily.

I'm not quite sure where you are coming from. Of course, human genders are not dual. Most people are either male or female though, and then there is a percentage of people who have been born into a body with the opposite gender. This duality however does not exist any more when we go much deeper into it and find that there are many people with XXY chromosomes or other versions of gender that don't fit into the duality.

However, I have not heard the term cisgender in that context. I will believe that there are more transgender people than there are people on other points in the spectrum - except for those (and that is in fact the majority of all people) that feel male and are physically male, or feel female and are physically female. And those people we call cisgender for want of a better word.

I have seen transwomen being really unhappy when that term was used as opposed to "real woman". They certainly feel like real women, they only had the misfortune to have been born into a male body. Hence the need for a word for those women born into a female body, and ciswoman is the currently accepted term in the community.

Regardless of whether the word works for some gay guys, I might add. Or straight guys, for that matter.

[LeCharivari]

Why would it not be acceptable to call someone transgendered?

I don't know the meaning of "cis-", but in the transgendered world, a cis-gendered person is simply a person who was lucky enough to have been born into a body that corresponds with their sexuality. I don't see anything wrong with that word.

If you don't mix with transgendered people a lot, you will have no need for this word in your everyday life, so I don't really understand what this discussion is about.

I'm not quite sure where you are coming from. Of course, human genders are not dual. Most people are either male or female though, and then there is a percentage of people who have been born into a body with the opposite gender. This duality however does not exist any more when we go much deeper into it and find that there are many people with XXY chromosomes or other versions of gender that don't fit into the duality.

However, I have not heard the term cisgender in that context. I will believe that there are more transgender people than there are people on other points in the spectrum - except for those (and that is in fact the majority of all people) that feel male and are physically male, or feel female and are physically female. And those people we call cisgender for want of a better word.

I have seen transwomen being really unhappy when that term was used as opposed to "real woman". They certainly feel like real women, they only had the misfortune to have been born into a male body. Hence the need for a word for those women born into a female body, and ciswoman is the currently accepted term in the community.

Regardless of whether the word works for some gay guys, I might add. Or straight guys, for that matter.

"Why would it not be acceptable to call someone transgendered?"

"I have seen transwomen being really unhappy when that term was used as opposed to "real woman"."

I think you have answered your own question.

"And those people we call cisgender for want of a better word."

The term "natural" women (and "natural" men) seems to be a much BETTER word, as it's not only more appropriate and far less open to mis-interpretation than "real" women (and certainly "real" men) but it's far more widely and easily understood than "cis-women" or "cis-men".

[onthemoon]

Why would it not be acceptable to call someone transgendered?

I don't know the meaning of "cis-", but in the transgendered world, a cis-gendered person is simply a person who was lucky enough to have been born into a body that corresponds with their sexuality. I don't see anything wrong with that word.

If you don't mix with transgendered people a lot, you will have no need for this word in your everyday life, so I don't really understand what this discussion is about.

I'm not quite sure where you are coming from. Of course, human genders are not dual. Most people are either male or female though, and then there is a percentage of people who have been born into a body with the opposite gender. This duality however does not exist any more when we go much deeper into it and find that there are many people with XXY chromosomes or other versions of gender that don't fit into the duality.

However, I have not heard the term cisgender in that context. I will believe that there are more transgender people than there are people on other points in the spectrum - except for those (and that is in fact the majority of all people) that feel male and are physically male, or feel female and are physically female. And those people we call cisgender for want of a better word.

I have seen transwomen being really unhappy when that term was used as opposed to "real woman". They certainly feel like real women, they only had the misfortune to have been born into a male body. Hence the need for a word for those women born into a female body, and ciswoman is the currently accepted term in the community.

Regardless of whether the word works for some gay guys, I might add. Or straight guys, for that matter.

"Why would it not be acceptable to call someone transgendered?"

"I have seen transwomen being really unhappy when that term was used as opposed to "real woman"."

I think you have answered your own question.

You have taken my sentence out of context. For your info, the terms transwoman and transgender are terms used in the transgender community.

"And those people we call cisgender for want of a better word."

The term "natural" women (and "natural" men) seems to be a much BETTER word, as it's not only more appropriate and far less open to mis-interpretation than "real" women (and certainly "real" men) but it's far more widely and easily understood than "cis-women" or "cis-men".

Try and use the word "natural woman" for cisgender woman in the transgender community and get stoned. They consider themselves natural women (who have just been born into a wrong body).

Again, I don't believe they care what some gay people in Thailand think about their terminology. So, your opinion of whether you personally feel that the term cisgender is appropriate or not is irrelelvant; the only thing you can do is learn and follow.

Just to avoid misunderstandings: I am referring to the international (well, European) transgender community, I don't know anything about the Thai terminology.

[LeCharivari]

There will always be some people who take exception to being called anything and who treat everything said about or to them as an insult - or who do so on someone else's behalf, often unasked.

I am quite sure very few in the transgender community ANYWHERE know or care what ANYONE here says about "their" terminology, and that includes On the Moon and his opinion as well as me and mine, however .....

Since reading this thread I have "learnt" that the term was only coined in 1995 or 1996, probably by Carl Buijs, was scarcely used or even known in the transgender community until 2005 when Julia Serano used it, and that it is highly controversial in the transgender community even now. Many transgenders see it as an "activist" term used by a minority of transgenders who simply want to challenge the rest of the world's "privilege" of labelling them and who want a chance to even the score and be able to apply a label of their own, and many disagree with it as it appears to divide the world into two groups - "trans" and "cis", as Morakot indicated, which is very much NOT how most transgenders see gender and sexuality. Far from being "the currently accepted term in the community" the acknowledged academics and activists in this field seem united in their view that the term is of limited use both inside and outside the "community".

http://kinseyconfidential.org/transgender-genderqueer-cisgender-terms/

http://juliaserano.livejournal.com/14700.html

http://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=93105.0

Isanbirder seems to have put his finger on it quite succinctly early on.