Working Or Not Working In Thailand?

[george]

I am currently in Thailand on a tourist visa. Here's a quote from the departure card that is stapled to my passport:

"ALIEN ENTERING THAILAND AND HAVING INCOME OR ALIEN STAYING OVER NINETY DAYS IN THAILAND WITHOUT INCOME MUST POSSESS A TAX CLEARANCE CERTIFICATE FROM THE REVENUE DEPARTMENT BEFORE LEAVING THAILAND. IF NOT, WILL NOT BE PERMITED TO LEAVE."

And yes, I know that this is not currently enforced. But that doesn't make it legal.

The Thai authorities can enforce it any day they want, for any reason, if they for some reason want to stop you at the airport.

[parryhandy]

come on you moderators do tell ? do you all have work permits to moderate on this forum because according to them rules its classed as work ?

[george]

come on you moderators do tell ? do you all have work permits to moderate on this forum because according to them rules its classed as work ?

Yes, the admins all have work permits.

[parryhandy]

so you do or will ALL get paid at least 50-60000 baht a month for moderating according to the new minimum wages for 1st world workers.

[george]

All admins have work permits, but some of the moderators are like members of Yahoo! Groups, they are just floating aroound in internet cafes and like criminals doing their duties. We will bail them out from jail if necessary.

[parryhandy]

because at the moment the Thai system is unflexable as regards to part time work or underpaid or voluntary work especially regarding the internet ? so people have to bend the law right ? but technically these part time helpful moderators could be arrested and deported if someone saw fit ?

Not having a dig just trying to affirm my belief that even mother theresa would struggle to come Thailand and not break some law that could be enforced if necessary.

[george]

because at the moment the Thai system is unflexable as regards to part time work or underpaid or voluntary work especially regarding the internet ? so people have to bend the law right ? but technically these part time helpful moderators could be arrested and deported if someone saw fit ?

Anwser is no, but technically yes, but if they sit in an internet cafe it could hardly be a problem. The law is crazy.

Sunbelt, please help me now!

[sillyfools]

Getting back to the original Q's...

I didn't know that small sentence would get such an amount of replies :-).

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I find this thread to be very interesting and would like to add some more questions.

-1) Regarding the Q that started this all, from what I read if would be best to enter on a Tourist / Business via and lay low typing away your novel in the sun sipping a beer, .... However, are there any downsides to this, whereas I know that you have to leave the country each 3 months to get a your passport stamped.

However, I've also heard that after a period of time you have to stay outside of the country for a couple of months. Can anyone clarify this for me: a) after how much time, for how long, c) what kind of visas does it apply to ?

2) So apart from laying low and wishing for the best, what would the "best" legal option be for our soon-to-be-expat friend who can make a living working anywhere in the world on the internet for companies in the home country?

3) I've also read the taxing stuff with great interest. Since Thailand does tax income less than most western countries, wouldn't it be great to have one pay taxes here and not in the home country? How can one do that, regarding that there is already a company set up in the home country, generating a list of projects to be handled? I guess that Thai government would be happy to receive the extra taxes and the foreigner who wants to lay in the sun over here would be more than happy to pay them over here, so what is possible, what are the pitfalls and how to start this off?

----

[digibum]

3) I've also read the taxing stuff with great interest. Since Thailand does tax income less than most western countries, wouldn't it be great to have one pay taxes here and not in the home country? How can one do that, regarding that there is already a company set up in the home country, generating a list of projects to be handled? I guess that Thai government would be happy to receive the extra taxes and the foreigner who wants to lay in the sun over here would be more than happy to pay them over here, so what is possible, what are the pitfalls and how to start this off?

Again, technically, you could do that BUT you still cannot avoid paying taxes in your country of citizenship. As a US citizen, what happens is that when it comes tax time in the US I fill out a form that tells them how much I paid in foreign taxes. They then subtract that amount from what I owe in US taxes on my income and I pay the difference.

That's why this is not a tax scheme. You're not doing this to avoid paying taxes. In fact, you save exactly $0 dollars via this method. If you wish to do that then go incorporate in some Caribbean nation that is friendly to that sort of thing but I have not nor would I suggest such a plan.

What this all comes down to is where did you earn the money. My argument is that if your corporation earns the money in the US that is who lays claim to the revenue for revenue tax purposes and thus Thailand has very poor position in attempting to argue that the funds were earned in Thailand. Now, the entire reason I suggested transferring from a US personal savings account to a Thai personal checking/savings account is that it raises even less eyebrows because it simply appears that you're drawing from savings funds which is not income.

Moonman has made a very good point but if I was a US citizen, and had a brokerage account at Charles Schwabb with $1,000,000 USD invested in US Treasurey bonds earning me something like 5% if I were to move to Thailand and live off my interest INCOME would I need a work permit to collect my interest? It is income and investing is using knowledge to make money and I am located in Thailand so do I need a work permit or not? I'm guessing the answer is no and if the answer is no to this then simply collecting money from your investment in a US company would not require a work permit either. In fact, if we follow this logic, technically, if you come to Thailand while on vacation and you have paid vacation . . . you're in violation of Thai law as you're earning money while in Thailand without a work permit. According to Moonman, if your employer in the US direct deposits your salary into your bank account while you're in Thailand on vacation, you have just violated Thai work/tax laws. I know Moonman hasn't made that specific assertion but I'm just following the logic and that's exactly where it leads.

Someone asked if the mods require work permits. They are in Thailand, working in Thailand for a company in Thailand and being paid in Thai baht (I'm assuming this based on their answers). Totally different. I would 100% agree that they are indeed working in Thailand.

If the Thai authorities grabbed one of the ThaiVisa mods and asked them where they got the X baht that was deposited in their account and why there was a monthly deposit of roughly the same amount they would have no excuse and the Thai authorities would correctly assume that they had been earning money while in Thailand. On the other hand, if they pulled a person who has done as I've recommended and ask him where he is getting his funds, he can say that he's semi-retired and that he's living off his investments in the US. Since he can show regular transfers of funds from US personal accounts to his Thai personal account the only way they could then prove otherwise would be to actually catch him in the act (which is why I recommend laying low rather than having an apartment full of servers). I still argue that what he's doing is technically legal but even if it weren't, Thai authorities would have to go to a great deal of trouble to prove anything because his affairs have been set up in such a way as to fully support his claim to be living off of investments. If you want an extra measure of protection purchase some good encryption software and encrypt your hard drive so they would never be able to find any information.

Let's face it, if you're living in Thailand on the 90 day tourist visas then you're already in violation of the spirit of the Thai law and they can simply refuse to give you a renewal whenever they feel like it. If you don't do anything to draw attention to yourself and take some pre-cautions, you're probably at no more risk than any other ex-pat living off tourist visas.

[natee1]

3) I've also read the taxing stuff with great interest. Since Thailand does tax income less than most western countries, wouldn't it be great to have one pay taxes here and not in the home country? How can one do that, regarding that there is already a company set up in the home country, generating a list of projects to be handled? I guess that Thai government would be happy to receive the extra taxes and the foreigner who wants to lay in the sun over here would be more than happy to pay them over here, so what is possible, what are the pitfalls and how to start this off?

Again, technically, you could do that BUT you still cannot avoid paying taxes in your country of citizenship. As a US citizen, what happens is that when it comes tax time in the US I fill out a form that tells them how much I paid in foreign taxes. They then subtract that amount from what I owe in US taxes on my income and I pay the difference.

That's why this is not a tax scheme. You're not doing this to avoid paying taxes. In fact, you save exactly $0 dollars via this method. If you wish to do that then go incorporate in some Caribbean nation that is friendly to that sort of thing but I have not nor would I suggest such a plan.

What this all comes down to is where did you earn the money. My argument is that if your corporation earns the money in the US that is who lays claim to the revenue for revenue tax purposes and thus Thailand has very poor position in attempting to argue that the funds were earned in Thailand. Now, the entire reason I suggested transferring from a US personal savings account to a Thai personal checking/savings account is that it raises even less eyebrows because it simply appears that you're drawing from savings funds which is not income.

Moonman has made a very good point but if I was a US citizen, and had a brokerage account at Charles Schwabb with $1,000,000 USD invested in US Treasurey bonds earning me something like 5% if I were to move to Thailand and live off my interest INCOME would I need a work permit to collect my interest? It is income and investing is using knowledge to make money and I am located in Thailand so do I need a work permit or not? I'm guessing the answer is no and if the answer is no to this then simply collecting money from your investment in a US company would not require a work permit either. In fact, if we follow this logic, technically, if you come to Thailand while on vacation and you have paid vacation . . . you're in violation of Thai law as you're earning money while in Thailand without a work permit. According to Moonman, if your employer in the US direct deposits your salary into your bank account while you're in Thailand on vacation, you have just violated Thai work/tax laws. I know Moonman hasn't made that specific assertion but I'm just following the logic and that's exactly where it leads.

Someone asked if the mods require work permits. They are in Thailand, working in Thailand for a company in Thailand and being paid in Thai baht (I'm assuming this based on their answers). Totally different. I would 100% agree that they are indeed working in Thailand.

If the Thai authorities grabbed one of the ThaiVisa mods and asked them where they got the X baht that was deposited in their account and why there was a monthly deposit of roughly the same amount they would have no excuse and the Thai authorities would correctly assume that they had been earning money while in Thailand. On the other hand, if they pulled a person who has done as I've recommended and ask him where he is getting his funds, he can say that he's semi-retired and that he's living off his investments in the US. Since he can show regular transfers of funds from US personal accounts to his Thai personal account the only way they could then prove otherwise would be to actually catch him in the act (which is why I recommend laying low rather than having an apartment full of servers). I still argue that what he's doing is technically legal but even if it weren't, Thai authorities would have to go to a great deal of trouble to prove anything because his affairs have been set up in such a way as to fully support his claim to be living off of investments. If you want an extra measure of protection purchase some good encryption software and encrypt your hard drive so they would never be able to find any information.

Let's face it, if you're living in Thailand on the 90 day tourist visas then you're already in violation of the spirit of the Thai law and they can simply refuse to give you a renewal whenever they feel like it. If you don't do anything to draw attention to yourself and take some pre-cautions, you're probably at no more risk than any other ex-pat living off tourist visas.

Hi,

This is all very interesting and relevant in this thread, are you guys talking about me, I only discovered and joined thaivisa 2 days ago?

I have a related question, but first like to comment on what I've just read, in sort of reverse order, if I may:

(sorry, can't work this posting business yet, not even in guided mode, just wiped out my entire essay doin' a preview, so'll do the quotes by copy and paste)

QUOTE

"....technically, you could do that BUT you still cannot avoid paying taxes in your country of citizenship. As a US citizen, what happens is ...."

I have been in several tricky tax situations, the country you work in, the country where you receive the money,i.e. where your bank is, and the country where you are "ordinarily resident", not necessarily that of your nationality, all have something to say. Provided you have all necessary permits and documentation, most countries have agreements as to how to handle this, not always clearcut. You're unlikely to be double-taxed on your income, but one taxoffice might decide you have not paid enough, as you described already, or, depending on the rules of the countries involved, you might be excempt or priviliged from some taxation.

For a small enterprise playing the system, usually the headache isn't worth the potential gain. Being consciencious one would of course submit income declarations as required, or be prepared for trouble further down the line.

QUOTE

"....if we follow this logic, technically, if you come to Thailand while on vacation and you have paid vacation . . . you're in violation of Thai law as you're earning money while in Thailand without a work permit."

While you are not allowed to work whether you get money or not, you are allowed to get money when you're not working here, I believe.

QUOTE

"I guess that Thai government would be happy to receive the extra taxes and the foreigner who wants to lay in the sun over here would be more than happy to pay them over here, so what is possible, what are the pitfalls and how to start this off?"

I guess the "trick" would be not to be resident in and not to receive payment in your homecountry. Pitfall is, it's hardly a "homecountry" anymore, since you will only be able to officially stay there as a visitor for limited periods of time without falling back into the fangs of the dreaded tax office('cuse me). Also, there is the small but hasslesome matter of obtaining bits of paper called permits.

QUOTE

"....However, I've also heard that after a period of time you have to stay outside of the country for a couple of months. Can anyone clarify this for me: a) after how much time, for how long, c) what kind of visas does it apply to ?...."

Citizens of a group of countries, mostly African, need to renew certain visas in their homecountries (sorry, I am not an expert, but remember reading this as I was queueing at immigration). What you heard about sounds like an unfounded rumor, or something one particular embassy dreamt up, rather then an immigration rule.

Now, what I like to relate:

I am also not working in Thailand. I am merely preparing to do business during

my vacation. All transactions are conducted abroad, where I also get paid(no, I am not a drugdealer). As already suggested inthis thread, I arrange everything myself low profile, spending money buying merchandise,not taking away from the people here, believing this is the spirit of the law. But however one might phrase it, it is work in the sense of the law. How could I make this an entirely legal activity without having to wonder whether it is ok to do or not? The answer is: with great difficulties and with alot more money than I am willing to risk (see visa and permits section, there is no room for selfemployed or individual business). I guess there are quite a few people here in a similar situation, judging by the responses to this posting.

Now the next issue is my up to now quite amusing story and resulting question:

What I impatiently anticipated all these years finally happened last months. Some of the staff at Thaiembassy Vientiane are of a similar calibre as that annoying spectacled women at Thonglor Post Office (those who live near know what I mean). It was revealed to me in no uncertain terms that I had been a 2-months tourist in Thailand for long enough and that in future I will have to obtain a long-stay-visa (her words, not mine), requiring a bankstatement and an explanation from the embassy of my country. Curiousity got the better of me and I couldn't help but overstay my allotted time at her desk due to my questioning as to what kind of explanation exactly might be required.

I was handed a leaflet explaining about the retirement visa. It took all my strength and courage to compose myself for a renewed, uninvited approach to her desk on this fateful Thursday morning, pointing out that I am not approaching 50 years of age yet and questioning whether this was really the right visa for me to apply for. All additional information I could secure was that the same applied to me at 45, except I need only have 300.000 Baht and renew the visa every 3 months.

The bankstatement I can provide, what other documentation is involved and what this "long-stay-visa" is supposed to be I still don't know.

Does anybody out there have any suggestions what I could or should do or not do, other than ignore the "advise" I received; or giving the dog and the motorbike to the GF and go home?

[parryhandy]

Now the next issue is my up to now quite amusing story and resulting question:

What I impatiently anticipated all these years finally happened last months. Some of the staff at Thaiembassy Vientiane are of a similar calibre as that annoying spectacled women at Thonglor Post Office (those who live near know what I mean). It was revealed to me in no uncertain terms that I had been a 2-months tourist in Thailand for long enough and that in future I will have to obtain a long-stay-visa (her words, not mine), requiring a bankstatement and an explanation from the embassy of my country. Curiousity got the better of me and I couldn't help but overstay my allotted time at her desk due to my questioning as to what kind of explanation exactly might be required.

I was handed a leaflet explaining about the retirement visa. It took all my strength and courage to compose myself for a renewed, uninvited approach to her desk on this fateful Thursday morning, pointing out that I am not approaching 50 years of age yet and questioning whether this was really the right visa for me to apply for. All additional information I could secure was that the same applied to me at 45, except I need only have 300.000 Baht and renew the visa every 3 months.

The bankstatement I can provide, what other documentation is involved and what this "long-stay-visa" is supposed to be I still don't know.

Does anybody out there have any suggestions what I could or should do or not do, other than ignore the "advise" I received; or giving the dog and the motorbike to the GF and go home?

natee i had the same in Vientiane last month.What she was trying to tell you is that you no longer get any more tourist visas from her office and that the only visas they like to give out to you now are the year long marriage support visas requirements- 200000 baht in bank (300000 at her office ? soon to raise to 400000 baht in july everywhere) or one year retirement visas 800000 baht in bank , 50+ years old etc..

I have cuurently been staying on 90 day mrriage visas but she told me i must apply for a one year support visa (see above) next time. I asked her for requirment details for this and she like in your case game me the piece of paper with the requirements for a one year retirement visa (im 36 !!).

Your best option is to scan the board for info and apply for a multiple entry tourist visa which i am led to beleive are available in Penang.

Another option is to marry your girlfriend then apply for a one year support visa requiring that your combined monthly income is 40000 baht or that you have 200000baht (goes up to 400000 baht in july) in the bank or a combination of both.Or being married you can apply for a married persons multiple entry visa again available in penang i beleive.

[udon]

I'm on a type O visa.

I buy 200 men's shirts and TAKE them to another country to sell.

I'm working?

I buy 200 men's shirts and SHIP them to another country to sell.

I'm def. working!

I know of many guys who come here to buy product and either take the product with them on the aircraft to resell back home, or sometimes ship the product back home as airfrt.......do these guys need a work permit too?

A minefield!

Thank you.

[ThaiLover1]

Wow, this has really turned into a juicy and interesting thread.

I am the original poster of this thread, and it is interesting to read the situation that "digibum" describes. I am not a writer but a computer engineer traveling to Thailand several times every year.

It is easy for a computer engineer to setup Internet servers and bank accounts all humming along in the ol' United States of America. No employment or office space needs to be kept in Thailand, and there is no need for a bank-account in Thailand. Rather, one can live off several ATM cards, tied in to American banks. This also brings in tourist dollars to the Thai kindom. The government loves tourism, from what I understand.

Don't you love electronic banking, Internet and virtual offices and shopping malls? One can spend time in Thailand - or any country of choosing and travel as a tourist, and check business activities back in the US, without being physically present in the US.

If someone suggested how to do this - before the Internet, I would say it is impossible. But, now it is reality - one can make money in one of the highest paying jobs in the world (for example computer programming) and spend the earnings in a low-cost haven like Thailand. It does not get much sweeter than this.

I agree the Thai immigration law is confusing, but now I think I understand the spirit of the Thai law much better, after reading the comments from the members in this thread.

Of course, lawyers and government officials can - and sometime do - interpret the law anyway they like, so it behooves one to make friends, not to step on people's toes and smile with respect.

Bottom-line: Do not do anything illegal, but do interpret the grey areas of the law in your favor. There is no need to be a martyr. I have applied this thinking in the US for years, after the advice of my tax-attorney. It works and feels right, and you are totally legal.

Thank you all!

[jackex]

My Visa status is Now Non Im O

I live here with my wife and family.

I work part time for a UK internet company. All work is undertaked outside Thailand. No (company) money passes in or out.

I do bring in personal money though - should I declare this and pay tax?

I just work from my laptop and phone at home.

Do I need a work permit?

Thanks

Jack

[Nickkbh]

Hi All.

great thread.

I will soon be in a similar position.

I am a sound engineer,doing sound design as well as jingles and composing music.

My plan is to stay in bkk on a tourist visa,working for my old company,that has given me this opprtunity,thanks to internet and file transfers.

i can receive a speak,do what i gotta do,and send the final project back via email.

I will be paying tax at home,and have a steady income.

But,i will also be job hunting in bkk,looking for a contract to solve everything with immigrations,hopefully....

My motivation is to try something new in life,get away from my old everyday living.

And for me,thailand is the place to do so.

I am not burning any bridges and can return any time.

Thus i am willing to take a chance with the complicated thai immigrational laws.

My question is......How do i apply for a 3 month visa in a legal way.What,and what not,should i tell the local embassy?

My initial plan was to say that will be spending 3 months in thailand,seeking inspiration for my music.

I will bring my pc,and sit somewhere and get inspired to make some good music.

Not sure wether this is considered work or not.Grey area.

One thing for sure,i will spend my earnings in thailand,contributing that way....

Am i crazy or what.

Comments are most welcome:-)

[udon]

Nickkbh,

I would be tempted to go for a Type "O" multi entry visa.

This visa is good for a year.

You will have to leave every 90 days and re-enter at somewhere like Poipet.

It's called a visa run.. duh... and takes most of the day.

Transfer at least 250,000B to a Thai bank, can recc. Kasikorn Bank.

Whatever you do, never confide in a Thai.

No offense meant to the Thais on this board.

If you need more info, PM me.

cheers,

udon

[Bozo]

Most interesting thread !

I would like to ask 3 general questions, closely related to the subject at hand:

1. What are the rules defining the status of resident (in general, whatever the country concerned) ?

2. Is the paying of tax directly related with the status of residency ?

3. Is it possible to become a permanent resident of Thailand ?

Thank you all in advance & welcoming all comments !

[fell4thai]

Pretty interesting post!

I have a similar question:

In my case, I am a canadian working for an US company that would be sending wiretrasnfer directly to my Thai Bank account. ( if possible to be opened without a non-imm O )

Where should I pay taxes? To the better deal of the three ?

[huski]

Most interesting thread ! 

I would like to ask 3 general questions, closely related to the subject at hand:

1. What are the rules defining the status of resident (in general, whatever the country concerned) ?

2.  Is the paying of tax directly related with the status of residency ?

3. Is it possible to become a permanent resident of Thailand ?

Thank you all in advance & welcoming all comments !

you need to pay taxes if you are working in thailand, the most common classes are:

non immigrant visa

1 year extension

residence book

thai id and/or passport

to become a permanent resident you will need to apply after having three consecutive 1 year extensions from thai immigration. also to have been paying taxes and speak some thai during an interview. i don't think the applicants per year reach the quota set for each country. the application fee and the fee once approved is 199k but less if you are married to a thai citizen <103,300 baht>.

Submission period for the Residence permit applications

The applicants can submit the applications once a year. Normally, the opening date for the applications is in December, we recommend to prepare the required documents 1-2 months earlier. Once the date is announced, the applications can be submitted until the last working day of the year.

The results will be announced in May 2004 and the residence permits will be issued in December 2004.

If approved, a residence blue book is issued to the alien. The foreign resident must register  the place of residence in Thailand at the local Amphur Office and obtain a house card. 7 days after receipt of the residence certificate you then apply for an alien book (red book) at the local police station. You must re-register there every year, and the fee is 200 Baht.

The Residency Permit itself never expires, unless revoked. To be able to leave the country and return at will, though, you need to apply each year for a re-entry permit (endorsement) at 1,000 baht (multiple entry). If you don't leave Thailand, you don't need to have an endorement done.

Also, you must present yourself at the police station covering the area where you are resident once every five years for a stamp in your book.

An alien with permanent residency status will be eligible to apply for Thai citizenship after 10 consecutive years under this classification.

[aaaaaa]

Work: "By exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefit"

I've always had the impression that the way this is set up, even thinking about your job while in Thailand is technically illegal. Sorta like if the authorities made breathing illegal and then didn't enforce the law. There is always a ready made means for a crackdown when needs arise.

this is exactly how I feel and even susupect how it IS...

but then it is not just about any country in particularas Thailand here. it is about the laws in nowdays world....

and also - not only about work permits - but also visas and many other things. all related to making more money and control. I think this is what is all about...

so much for "democracy", huh? even in times of "lesser" social ordere as monarchy things were much easier in this regard than as they are in so called democratic societies, which supposed to be the most advanced and beneficial for ppl ! "demos" - masses.... well, yeah - coz the bigger mass the more moneys can be squized out of it !

as the joke says: "there are only 2 things sure in this world - death and ... taxes"

[aaaaaa]

but I agree - perhaps one of most interesting threads....

seems like a lot of ppl are in similar situation, even me !

[udon]

Maybe some Ozmates could answer this one.

Is there anything to stop a Thai starting a biz in Oz?

From food hawking to an internet sales site?

TIA.

[Hpro]

How does one define 'working in Thailand' and therefore the person is required to get a Thailand work permit?

Hi there,

here the definition of work in thailand..

Under Thai Law BE2522 foreigners are prohibited to engage in any of the following. It should be noted that the law does NOT define work as doing something in return for financial or any other reward.

here you can read it all from the source:

http://www.imm3.police.go.th/eng/workprohibited.htm

Hpro