Red shirts appear to be biggest losers in Thai amnesty bill

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE
Red shirts appear to be biggest losers in amnesty bill
ATTAYUTH BOOTSRIPOOM

BANGKOK: -- THE MORE Pheu Thai's leading members and those close to former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra try to defend the amnesty bill, the more they sound unreasonable.

They have been trying to defend the controversial amendment to the bill during the vetting process to extend amnesty from ordinary demonstrators to all groups in a blanket absolution.

The daring move of the vetting panel left people agape in bewilderment. Then, criticism and opposition mounted from both opponents and supporters of the Pheu Thai-led government.

But the government ignored the criticisms and decided to send the amnesty bill to the House for the second reading today. The move was unacceptable to even several wings of the red-shirt movement, except the red shirts in the Pheu Thai.

If the bill is enacted, former prime minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and former deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban would also be absolved for their alleged roles in the 2010 bloody crackdown on red-shirt demonstrators. If that happens, the red shirts' campaign for justice against the previous government's leaders would have been in vain.

The red shirts have become disillusioned because the Pheu Thai has repeatedly promised the government would bring those responsible for the crackdowns and killing of demonstrators to justice to set a precedent and prevent more bloody crackdowns. But now the promise would be completely shattered.

The red shirts felt they were betrayed and just used by the Pheu Thai as a stairway to power. As a result, the red shirts have come out to campaign against the amnesty bill and to express disappointment with the Pheu Thai in an unprecedented move.

Members of the vetting panel tried to argue that the bill had to be changed to grant blanket amnesty because the Constitution prohibits discrimination in legal enforcement. They said the original draft could be deemed unconstitutional.

But this argument led to the question as to why the Pheu Thai had earlier insisted that amnesty could be granted only to general demonstrators even though several sides had pointed out that such a bill could be deemed discriminating against wrongdoers in several other cases.

Though the vetting panel claimed the bill had to be amended to prevent discrimination, suspects or convicts in lese majeste cases would still be excluded from the amnesty. So, the discrimination argument was unreasonable.

Worst of all, the Pheu Thai claimed that Abhisit and Suthep would be helped by a special power to receive immunity in the trial process so the amnesty bill's enactment should be rushed to help free red shirts from prison.

This argument was fallacious. Effectively, the Pheu Thai leaders were saying that as Abhisit and Suthep would be acquitted anyway, they should be absolved right away without having to be tried in a court to set a precedent.

So, the Pheu Thai leaders were blaming the "invisible power", whose existence could not be proved, for the blanket-amnesty move. The Pheu Thai leaders were doing this although they liked to criticise the opponents for jumping to their own conclusions.

Worse still, all the arguments failed to explain why Thaksin would also be absolved because the former prime minister had nothing to do with protests and demonstrations.

The Pheu Thai should have sought to undo the effects of the 2006 coup with another law instead of using the amnesty bill.

As a result, all the arguments were just excuses for their plan to help just some persons while ignoring the grassroots' plight, as the real goal of the bill is not to grant amnesty to the people.


-- The Nation 2013-10-31

[Thaddeus]

Another inaccurate headline.

The biggest loser is Thailand.

[kurnell]

What about an amnesty for foreigners in gaol in Thailand?

[MaiChai]

I should say Taksin is loosing it. His popularity has really dwindled and he has dug himself into a hole that he won't be able to get out off. Most poor Thais must now realise that Taksin and his family are no better than the amart or any other rich parties who have run the government in the past. So where does he go from here? Self imposed exile for the rest of his life? All that wealth could have been put to better use; think of the good life he could have had if he was not so obsessed with power?

[LuckyLew]

This amnesty bill is just more proof that the PTP do not care about those who elected them

Maybe when the next election rolls around they will vote with their brain and not sell their votes for 500 baht

PTP have shown time and time again, they have two goals ... Bring home the criminal and self enrichment

[h90]

I should say Taksin is loosing it. His popularity has really dwindled and he has dug himself into a hole that he won't be able to get out off. Most poor Thais must now realise that Taksin and his family are no better than the amart or any other rich parties who have run the government in the past. So where does he go from here? Self imposed exile for the rest of his life? All that wealth could have been put to better use; think of the good life he could have had if he was not so obsessed with power?

I think only a few poor Thais realise it, not most and with some new propaganda later as we have seen it before:

Thaksin pays back Thailands debt at the worldbank

Thaksin pays 30 Baht medical care

Told to the poor as he pays it from the own money.....And a hand out of 500 Baht or more and he will be elected again.

If some realise something or not isn't important as long as the money comes in.....

[h90]

This amnesty bill is just more proof that the PTP do not care about those who elected them

Maybe when the next election rolls around they will vote with their brain and not sell their votes for 500 baht

PTP have shown time and time again, they have two goals ... Bring home the criminal and self enrichment

Than they will pay 1000.

[rametindallas]

I really hope the Red Shirts realize and don't forget that Dr. Thaksin views them as 'throw away' tools and he will sacrifice anyone in his pursuit of power and wealth. Dr. Thaksin used to be a fairly nice man before incurable megalomania got hold of him. Greed and lust for power are powerful demons and unfortunately the Red Shirts have been burned badly. It is a shame as their causes (the ones that aren't Thaksin related) are, for the most part, just. As much as I don't like to see Thailand portrayed in a negative light, I hope the blowback is bigger than any demonstration since 1973, because, in the long run, Dr. Thaksin must not be whitewashed and allowed to return to power.

caption: Thai people 40 years ago would not understand Thai people nowadays.

student: Even though Thanom-Praphas were less dictatorial and corrupt than Thaksin… hundreds of thousands of us came out to oust them… Thaksin has viciously done this much to our country, why you still remain idle? What a shame!

(The photo shows the popular uprising on October 14, 1973 that was to topple the dictatorship that included Field Marshal Thanom Kittilachorn and Field Marshal Praphas Charusathien.)

[centrala]

Members of the vetting panel tried to argue that the bill had to be changed to grant blanket amnesty because the Constitution prohibits discrimination in legal enforcement. They said the original draft could be deemed unconstitutional.

But this argument led to the question as to why the Pheu Thai had earlier insisted that amnesty could be granted only to general demonstrators even though several sides had pointed out that such a bill could be deemed discriminating against wrongdoers in several other cases.

What a snow job (not easy to do in the tropics).

Good thing for PTP that they squandered all that education money on broken tablets instead of actually educating the rural poor that put them in office.

[gemini81]

Members of the vetting panel tried to argue that the bill had to be changed to grant blanket amnesty because the Constitution prohibits discrimination in legal enforcement. They said the original draft could be deemed unconstitutional.

But this argument led to the question as to why the Pheu Thai had earlier insisted that amnesty could be granted only to general demonstrators even though several sides had pointed out that such a bill could be deemed discriminating against wrongdoers in several other cases.

What a snow job (not easy to do in the tropics).

Good thing for PTP that they squandered all that education money on broken tablets instead of actually educating the rural poor that put them in office.

Isn't that the truth...but, like abroad, with public access to the internet, you can try to block this and block that, but the word ( the truth) gets out. When it comes to a real uprising, it is in fact those rural farmers and folks upcountry who will be ready for a fight, when they learn about the plunder and how they've been shafted. They'll have decide when enough is enough. Hope its soon rather than later. And I think its coming. We some some big events are inevitable and on the horizon, but we can't really discuss that one particularly touchy subject in a forum nor in public- I think someone in Dubai was waiting for some events to unfold and hope he could time it so that he can return as a savior and leader during hard times. Thaksin is losing now and getting desperate.

Edited October 31, 2013 by gemini81

[ramrod711]

The red shirts felt they were betrayed and just used by the Pheu Thai as a stairway to power. As a result, the red shirts have come out to campaign against the amnesty bill and to express disappointment with the Pheu Thai in an unprecedented move.

The red shirts are finally starting to see how they have been used as pawns by Thaksin. A relatively small investment on his part led to the demonstration in Bangkok, which in turn led to an election that was going to happen in less than a year anyway. In return he became the friend of the people, the benevolent one, who returned democracy to Thailand. The fact is that Thaksin is the friend of no one, everything he does is for his and his clans benefit. I thought that he would eventually be found out, and it appears to be happening. The sooner that he becomes unimportant to the people, the better for the country.

[Tatsujin]

The red shirts felt they were betrayed and just used by the Pheu Thai as a stairway to power.

Damn, these idiots are slow. At last they are getting it.

[moe666]

PTP all show and no go

[petedk]

I just spoke to a Thai colleague who was a red shirt fanatic. Note the word "was"

She went to the protests at Ratchaprasong every day when the red shirts took control of that area. She was friends with some of the leaders, including one who was killed. She slept in the temple on that night when the nurse was killed.

Today she said to me, "All we wanted was democracy, but now it's not about democracy. it's about other things; greed and power. I quit the movement because this will never end."

It's going up for some of them that they were just pawns in a chess game.

[RickeyParkany]

Scrolling past volumes of TV Schadenfreude... Swimming in crocodile tears... ;-} rap.

[bigbamboo]

I just spoke to a Thai colleague who was a red shirt fanatic. Note the word "was"

She went to the protests at Ratchaprasong every day when the red shirts took control of that area. She was friends with some of the leaders, including one who was killed. She slept in the temple on that night when the nurse was killed.

Today she said to me, "All we wanted was democracy, but now it's not about democracy. it's about other things; greed and power. I quit the movement because this will never end."

It's going up for some of them that they were just pawns in a chess game.

She's bang on the money there.

And I don't think she's alone either.

[wprime]

The red shirts felt they were betrayed and just used by the Pheu Thai as a stairway to power. As a result, the red shirts have come out to campaign against the amnesty bill and to express disappointment with the Pheu Thai in an unprecedented move.

If they couldn't figure this out from the start then they deserved to be used.

[waza]

Its been common knowledge that Thaksin sold the redshirts out in the deal with Prem, but the redshirts shouldn't be surprised as he has told them many times he doesn't need them anymore.

Bangkok July 31, 2008. He (Thaksin) insisted he is not advising members of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), the formal name for the Red Shirts, who enjoy wide support among Thailand’s rural poor and working class. “I don’t know them,” he said. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/01/07/thailands_deposed_prime_minister_relaxes_and_waits.html

Jun 8, 2012 Thaksin has bid to rally his red shirt United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) group, imploring in a fiery speech on June 2 to fight back against attempts to "steal" power from the people.........Thaksin said he had been "betrayed", though without saying by whom, and regretted that red shirts had been "forced to drink their own blood". He also lambasted a 2010 Supreme Court decision that confiscated US$1.4 billion of his wealth and served as a spark for the red shirt protests that paralyzed Bangkok's commercial hub and degenerated into violence in April-May 2010........ May 19 message, where he called on red shirts to put aside their grievances, including demands for justice for those killed during the April-May 2010 clashes between protestors and troops, for the sake of national reconciliation and his return from exile. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/NF08Ae01.html

He denied them many times and used them to destabilise Thailand then sold their blood for amnesty, just a tool to be used, then discarded.

Edited October 31, 2013 by waza

[Loles]

This man, Thaksin must to be a big wizard.

These poor and silly people were sacrificed and willing to sacrifice their life for this cheater Chinese.

I don't understand it, but the other parts of Thai politic have to learn from him about manipulate the crowd.

[fab4]

Its been common knowledge that Thaksin sold the redshirts out in the deal with Prem, but the redshirts shouldn't be surprised as he has told them many times he doesn't need them anymore.

Bangkok July 31, 2008. He (Thaksin) insisted he is not advising members of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), the formal name for the Red Shirts, who enjoy wide support among Thailand’s rural poor and working class. “I don’t know them,” he said. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/01/07/thailands_deposed_prime_minister_relaxes_and_waits.html

A classic example of "quote out of context" to support whatever theory is being put forward.

Now if you added the the preceding text the quote becomes clear and is not about "abandoning" the redshirts

Reports from Bangkok last week said a group of Pheu Thai party members were travelling to meet with Thaksin and discuss who should assume the opposition party’s leadership.

Thaksin, a former billionaire businessman, distanced himself Thursday from direct involvement in any political movement.

He insisted he is not advising members of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), the formal name for the Red Shirts, who enjoy wide support among Thailand’s rural poor and working class.

“I don’t know them,” he said.

Clearly he is throwing up "smokescreens" about him partaking in the discussions over the party leadership. If you want to believe differently, go ahead.

[SICHONSTEVE]

This amnesty bill is just more proof that the PTP do not care about those who elected them

Maybe when the next election rolls around they will vote with their brain and not sell their votes for 500 baht

PTP have shown time and time again, they have two goals ... Bring home the criminal and self enrichment

No!!, No!! surely not! Khun Thaksin loves his people and Yingluck likewise. He would never betray them, he has even stated that he would be prepared to stay in exile if it benefitted Thailand and the Thai people - what a noble gesture from a wonderful man!!

What do you mean you don't believe me? These words have come from the man's lips and he is as honourable as they come.

OK, he might have stolen several billions of baht from his beloved people and killed many thousands of his fellow Thais, but everybody has their faults and his heart is in the right place.

Give him a break and greet him at the airport as a messiah deserves to be greeted when he does come back, as he surely must.

Just think of how much of his stolen money he has returned. All of those welcome 500 baht notes he gives to the 'poor folk' and all he wants is to be loved (and a tick in the Pheu Thai box would be welcomed).

He is misunderstood and it is about time that people viewed him as a caring family man. Oh, how I cried when he thoughtfully put his sister in charge of running the country with his other sister standing by if things did'nt work out. What a nice man. He gets jobs for all of his family, even if they are not exactly qualified and he makes sure that he keeps up with the news by talking to his friends and family members on Skype. Not to mention how he cares about his old police school buddies when he puts the same effort in to help them with their employment (damn good well paid jobs as well) .

Try not to think about all of that stolen money and the extrajudicial killings of innocent civilians mixed in with those nasty druggie scum or the muslims in the deep South (he even made a half-hearted apology once over his mistakes) and gave the families of the fallen lots of taxpayers money in compensation. I am sure that he would have paid this out of his own pocket if those equally nasty Democrats hadn't re-stolen his illegaly obtained dosh.

Just think how he must be suffering in a foreign land and how he must be yearning to see his friends (he even pays for jollies to Hong Kong for his many friends), just to say hello and talk about old times of course........don't go getting suspicious on me.....why else would they be there?

[Artisi]

The sooner Thaksin is no longer with us, the better for all of Thailand. That is why he will never return - no balls - as the next of the many so called "assassination" attempts might well be a real one and he is fully aware of this fact. Poetic justice in my book, Thaksin living in fear and looking over his shoulder 27/7 - love it.

[waza]

Its been common knowledge that Thaksin sold the redshirts out in the deal with Prem, but the redshirts shouldn't be surprised as he has told them many times he doesn't need them anymore.

Bangkok July 31, 2008. He (Thaksin) insisted he is not advising members of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), the formal name for the Red Shirts, who enjoy wide support among Thailand’s rural poor and working class. “I don’t know them,” he said. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/01/07/thailands_deposed_prime_minister_relaxes_and_waits.html

A classic example of "quote out of context" to support whatever theory is being put forward.

Now if you added the the preceding text the quote becomes clear and is not about "abandoning" the redshirts

Reports from Bangkok last week said a group of Pheu Thai party members were travelling to meet with Thaksin and discuss who should assume the opposition party’s leadership.

Thaksin, a former billionaire businessman, distanced himself Thursday from direct involvement in any political movement.

He insisted he is not advising members of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), the formal name for the Red Shirts, who enjoy wide support among Thailand’s rural poor and working class.

“I don’t know them,” he said.

Clearly he is throwing up "smokescreens" about him partaking in the discussions over the party leadership. If you want to believe differently, go ahead.

Great Fab4, so Thaksin met with the PTP to tell them who has a cabinet position. Then in other news, he denies advising the UDD or redshirts, in fact he doesn't even know them. He probable flicked his hair at them as he said it. Seems you the one throwing up smoke screens.

[Siripon]

There was a long interview with Jatupon last night on ThaiPBS. He constantly referred to the end of the soi as being a dead end and repeatedly said the red shirts and the relatives of those who had lost their lives felt betrayed. If the bill is passed a parting of the ways seems inevitable.

But I wonder why he's so slow, anyone who has studied Thaksin's actions over the years know the man is totally untrustworthy and selfish.

On another point, Thaksin's son Oak, the troubled student in the past, wants his father to have fresh trials. Yes!!! Let's have the 2001 assets concealment trial all over again, how Thaksin and his wife hid millions of baht in his servants' names for years, let's rerun that and see a new verdict!!

[Nickymaster]

Its been common knowledge that Thaksin sold the redshirts out in the deal with Prem, but the redshirts shouldn't be surprised as he has told them many times he doesn't need them anymore.

Bangkok July 31, 2008. He (Thaksin) insisted he is not advising members of the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD), the formal name for the Red Shirts, who enjoy wide support among Thailand’s rural poor and working class. “I don’t know them,” he said. http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2011/01/07/thailands_deposed_prime_minister_relaxes_and_waits.html

Jun 8, 2012 Thaksin has bid to rally his red shirt United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) group, imploring in a fiery speech on June 2 to fight back against attempts to "steal" power from the people.........Thaksin said he had been "betrayed", though without saying by whom, and regretted that red shirts had been "forced to drink their own blood". He also lambasted a 2010 Supreme Court decision that confiscated US$1.4 billion of his wealth and served as a spark for the red shirt protests that paralyzed Bangkok's commercial hub and degenerated into violence in April-May 2010........ May 19 message, where he called on red shirts to put aside their grievances, including demands for justice for those killed during the April-May 2010 clashes between protestors and troops, for the sake of national reconciliation and his return from exile. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/NF08Ae01.html

He denied them many times and used them to destabilise Thailand then sold their blood for amnesty, just a tool to be used, then discarded.

from the article:

“Their life has been changed. Their happiness has been taken away,” Thaksin, who won two elections, said Thursday. “They just want me back.”

[rogerdee123]

The Red Shirts are Losers ... period.

Whatever credibility their issues and movement held, has been squandered for Taksin's personal gain.

This Amnesty and reconciliation charade together with indicting Apiset & Suthep is the nail in the coffin. Any credibility they had is dead now.

Too bad for the aspirations of those in Issan who thought they were pursuing legitimate issues. They will be tarred with this unfortunate period of history for years to come.

[SICHONSTEVE]

The Red Shirts are Losers ... period.

Whatever credibility their issues and movement held, has been squandered for Taksin's personal gain.

This Amnesty and reconciliation charade together with indicting Apiset & Suthep is the nail in the coffin. Any credibility they had is dead now.

Too bad for the aspirations of those in Issan who thought they were pursuing legitimate issues. They will be tarred with this unfortunate period of history for years to come.

Why too bad?? They should have known better not to have fallen for Pheu Thai's corrupt trickery into voting for them with money incentives (bribes) and unaffordable populist policies.

Did they actually believe that Thaksin (a serial liar if there was one) was being sincere when he pledged to help them in their plight of living impoverished lives, only to use and abuse the red shirt's trust in him by leaving them in the gutter after they had done his dirty work for them (at such a high cost as well).

No!! I don't feel sorry for them, as why should I, I have little sympathy for the 'gullible' without brains that come from up North!!

[GeorgeO]

I just spoke to a Thai colleague who was a red shirt fanatic. Note the word "was"

She went to the protests at Ratchaprasong every day when the red shirts took control of that area. She was friends with some of the leaders, including one who was killed. She slept in the temple on that night when the nurse was killed.

Today she said to me, "All we wanted was democracy, but now it's not about democracy. it's about other things; greed and power. I quit the movement because this will never end."

It's going up for some of them that they were just pawns in a chess game.

I sincerely hope that your colleague's action is representative of the general grass roots current attitude, since that would obviously lead to a rapid reduction in the red shirts as a force to be reckoned with.

Furthermore, if there are significant numbers who have lost faith, then this would clearly reduce the chances of the PTP rabble getting back into power...! Oh Happy Day....!

[GeorgeO]

The Red Shirts are Losers ... period.

Whatever credibility their issues and movement held, has been squandered for Taksin's personal gain.

This Amnesty and reconciliation charade together with indicting Apiset & Suthep is the nail in the coffin. Any credibility they had is dead now.

Too bad for the aspirations of those in Issan who thought they were pursuing legitimate issues. They will be tarred with this unfortunate period of history for years to come.

Why too bad?? They should have known better not to have fallen for Pheu Thai's corrupt trickery into voting for them with money incentives (bribes) and unaffordable populist policies.

Did they actually believe that Thaksin (a serial liar if there was one) was being sincere when he pledged to help them in their plight of living impoverished lives, only to use and abuse the red shirt's trust in him by leaving them in the gutter after they had done his dirty work for them (at such a high cost as well).

No!! I don't feel sorry for them, as why should I, I have little sympathy for the 'gullible' without brains that come from up North!!

The sad truth is these people are actually far worse off than they were before forming their alliance with the fugitive criminal, essentially because the populist policies that have been pushed through to line the pockets of this corrupt government have led to huge economic losses, rapidly rising inflation and huge jumps in both the CPI and household debt.

They have placed considerable stock in the fugitive's promise to lift them out of poverty, only to find themselves deeper in it...!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

The Red Shirts are Losers ... period.

Whatever credibility their issues and movement held, has been squandered for Taksin's personal gain.

This Amnesty and reconciliation charade together with indicting Apiset & Suthep is the nail in the coffin. Any credibility they had is dead now.

Too bad for the aspirations of those in Issan who thought they were pursuing legitimate issues. They will be tarred with this unfortunate period of history for years to come.

Why too bad?? They should have known better not to have fallen for Pheu Thai's corrupt trickery into voting for them with money incentives (bribes) and unaffordable populist policies.

Did they actually believe that Thaksin (a serial liar if there was one) was being sincere when he pledged to help them in their plight of living impoverished lives, only to use and abuse the red shirt's trust in him by leaving them in the gutter after they had done his dirty work for them (at such a high cost as well).

No!! I don't feel sorry for them, as why should I, I have little sympathy for the 'gullible' without brains that come from up North!!

The sad truth is these people are actually far worse off than they were before forming their alliance with the fugitive criminal, essentially because the populist policies that have been pushed through to line the pockets of this corrupt government have led to huge economic losses, rapidly rising inflation and huge jumps in both the CPI and household debt.

They have placed considerable stock in the fugitive's promise to lift them out of poverty, only to find themselves deeper in it...!!

Reading your post - that song by Alanis Morissette just came to me as being rather appropriate in summing up the red shirts position currently.

'Isn't it ironic'!!

Indeed it is - and do I care? No, in a word, as they must learn the hard way if they are to learn at all!!