Shocking Price Rises At Phoenix Golf Club Pattaya

[LBFM1]

As a Member who inveswted in the life time share membership it was the 6 hour rounds and 1.5 hour waits because of large Asian tour groups that make you lose respect for the so called "club". Thailand is the only country in Asia where most of the courses do not charge monthly dues. However in other Asian Countries private means that -private, and for that Members pay monthly subscriptions. The problem with phoenix, they want to charge members annual fees (dues) and still make the members second class to the tour groups. Secondly there should have been an announced extraordinary meeting of shareholders to discuss and vote on any changes. Members should get some priviledges, both tangiable and intangiable for their financial support over and above what any walk on gets. Thats how the golf business works. Its either public or private. If public why should one group that has already paid joining fee have to be the only user group forced to either resign or pay up.

Phoenix has been allowed to be an annual money loser since it opened by SCB Bank. Other groups in the past have offerred as much as 1.8 Billion Baht to purchase it. The group that has finally bought it is not new to golf in Thailand. However who would buy a golf course with a full compliment of members? Unless you run them off so you can relaunch the membership. Having the Farang Pattaya Groups stay away is precisely what they want. The Koreans will pay. The more exclusive they make it the more they will pay.

For the members there is only the option of go or pay this time and see if anything good comes out of the new management who obviously do not respect the members.

[thinkingman]

I wonder if the Thai members even know that a boycott is taking place. East is east etc. It would be good to get a slant on what they think or are doing.

there is only one law of economics most economists agree on:

If you charge more for a resource, less of it will be consumed.

I can assure you, if they are charging the same prices to Thais, there are fewer Thai players. Phoenix is way overpriced. Unfortunately, the owners bought (and almost surely, personally guaranteed) a fleet of 250 carts. The outcomes I see are:

1. continue paying for unused carts. (I estimate the lease payment on 250 as B1.3 million per month.)

2. Increase patronage by reducing fees and continue to make carts compulsory. (Most likely outcome. Club Car is not going to take back 100 carts without extracting a bucket of blood.)

3. Start losing USD50,000-$100,000 per month. Just wait until April-October when the major bleeding starts!

[impulse]

I wonder if they're actually accomplishing what they set out to do.

While there are some business models that count on competitive pricing and volume, there are other business models that count on high pricing and exclusivity.

One example would be Prada handbags.

I know tons of people who would gladly pay 2-3x as much if it didn't take 6 hours for a round after waiting 1.5 hours for a turn at the tee. Those dreaded Asian tour groups, for example. Perhaps the group organizers (as the bread and butter for the course) laid down the law and threatened to quit coming to Phoenix if they couldn't get through a round in under 5 hours?

Reducing the number of rounds also makes it possible to keep the grounds in better shape, especially if the rounds that "go away" are weekend warriors who leave a trail of divots.

If anyone is really serious about finding out how it's working for them, I'd suggest camping out on the 19th hole and counting the foursomes. You may be surprised to find that they're making more revenue on fewer rounds, with less wear and tear on the resource- and with happier customers.

Or it may be a ghost town. Hard to say from the keyboard here.

Edited November 24, 2013 by impulse

[melon]

Some Thai members are sending letters to Phoenix. A group of Thai members are not paying the Damand.

[Baboy]

Does anyone know if the 24,000 baht is per membership or per person playing on that membership.

i.e Family membership, Wife, myself, 2 x kids all with current cards 96,000 baht per year or 24,000 for the lot.

[Minpin]

As a Member who inveswted in the life time share membership it was the 6 hour rounds and 1.5 hour waits because of large Asian tour groups that make you lose respect for the so called "club". Thailand is the only country in Asia where most of the courses do not charge monthly dues. However in other Asian Countries private means that -private, and for that Members pay monthly subscriptions. The problem with phoenix, they want to charge members annual fees (dues) and still make the members second class to the tour groups. Secondly there should have been an announced extraordinary meeting of shareholders to discuss and vote on any changes. Members should get some priviledges, both tangiable and intangiable for their financial support over and above what any walk on gets. Thats how the golf business works. Its either public or private. If public why should one group that has already paid joining fee have to be the only user group forced to either resign or pay up.

Phoenix has been allowed to be an annual money loser since it opened by SCB Bank. Other groups in the past have offerred as much as 1.8 Billion Baht to purchase it. The group that has finally bought it is not new to golf in Thailand. However who would buy a golf course with a full compliment of members? Unless you run them off so you can relaunch the membership. Having the Farang Pattaya Groups stay away is precisely what they want. The Koreans will pay. The more exclusive they make it the more they will pay.

For the members there is only the option of go or pay this time and see if anything good comes out of the new management who obviously do not respect the members.

As an outsider to Phoenix I agree with your comments.

Most golf clubs are trying to be two things in one. A member club and a pay for play. It is a concept that will not work anywhere.

To confirm what you mentioned a club manager told me he would rather have 40 golfers a day paying 3000 baht than 200 golfers paying 400 baht. And believe me there are courses here charging the tours that price.( 400 baht that is) minimum 40 golfers.

Apathy is the biggest problem in a case like this. A few years ago a few members at the club i am a member tried to convince the managment to make it members only. They were willing to listen but we could not get the membership to show any interest.

I will get on my hobby horse now. With the amount or falangs here why can't they ALL get together and form a group that the courses might listen too.

They can't even have one umberella group, they have PSG and IPSG.

Remember the Koreans stick together and are a force to be reconed with as can be seen every high season.

Remember the Farangs could be the same force only greater, as they are here all year round.

[impulse]

Most golf courses built today are built to increase the value of the lots and homes that go up with the course. They'll be allowed to run at a deficit as long as the associated properties keep selling at a premium.

When the developer runs out of properties to sell (or gets into a pinch), the courses themselves often get sold off to an actual golf course management company, whose business it is to operate them at a profit. Lots of times, that requires changing the "rules".

Real bummer for home owners who thought they were buying a golf course home on an exclusive, members only club- only to find out that anyone with the greens fees can traipse through their back yard from dawn to dusk.

Don't know if that's what's happened at Phoenix since I've only played there twice.

Edited November 24, 2013 by impulse

[johnsmith2]

I will get on my hobby horse now. With the amount or falangs here why can't they ALL get together and form a group that the courses might listen too.

Sounds like a good idea. Something is already happening, with some 150+ members trying to act in a concerted manner, but getting an umbrella organisation involved would be even better.

I also would like to know whether the Thai members are organising themselves in a similar manner. Some coordination between the the member factions would be useful, at least some mutual information on actions envisaged or taken… Any Thai member around here?

[metisdead]

A post using all caps has been removed. Using all caps is the same as shouting and there is no need for that. Please turn off your Caps Lock button when posting.

[scubascuba3]

I will get on my hobby horse now. With the amount or falangs here why can't they ALL get together and form a group that the courses might listen too.

Sounds like a good idea. Something is already happening, with some 150+ members trying to act in a concerted manner, but getting an umbrella organisation involved would be even better. 

I also would like to know whether the Thai members are organising themselves in a similar manner. Some coordination between the the member factions would be useful, at least some mutual information on actions envisaged or taken… Any Thai member around here?

Sounds like it needs someone to take the lead and call or visit the PSC and IPGC bars and coordinate

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[bartpix]

The members and interested golfers who have been working on a solution and anyone interested in helping out, are meeting in the Relax Bar in Ban Amphur Monday 25/11/2013 at 18:00 to discuss further action, for all of you who are interested in a reasonable outcome to this.

The Relax Bar is down the same soi as Phrompong Condo and Club 1, i.e. coming from Sattahip, the first left after the traffic lights at Ban Amphur inter section.

[Toosetinmyways]

I am not a member of Phoenix but I am following this thread because the outcome may impact every person who plays golf in Thailand

There has been some very knowledgable threads, and as someone close to the workings of golf in Thailand very accurate. I thank you.

I only thing I would say is that if the Thais form some sort of action committee the farangs should give their full support but not get involved as this will lead on to the us Thais verses foreiners. This is in no way giving advice to you members. Just my opinion.

I presume if you do not pay the annual fee you will be in breach of contract.

As a prevous poster stated if only the farangs could stick together instead of their "i'm all right jack" attitude things could change. Don't hold your breath.

Its more important to discuss how much do you tip your caddie than show some support for people trying to better the situation for all.

No golf no caddie no tip problem gone

[Toosetinmyways]

Trying to keep that nonsense post "How much do you tip your caddie" off the number one spot so posting again. If I am boring you please click ignore.

A prevous post mentions quality verses quanity. I will relate the following in the hope that it offends someone.

A couple of weeks ago at the club I play, entertained 20 Japanees golfers. They all ate breakfast. Each had a cart even though two per cart is allowed. After finishing their round they showered had their presentation eat lunch stacks of beer enjojed themselves in the clubhouse. Paid FULL green fee.

Right behind them was a falang bar group. First thing they bitched about playing behind Asians. It will be a six hour round. 11 players 2 carts.

No food straight to first tee. Finished, showered left for Pattaya. Probably a heavily discounted green fee or they would not be there.

Now lets be honest. If you were a golfclub manager or owner which group would you want to cater to?

[Puyai]

Trying to keep that nonsense post "How much do you tip your caddie" off the number one spot so posting again. If I am boring you please click ignore.

A prevous post mentions quality verses quanity. I will relate the following in the hope that it offends someone.

A couple of weeks ago at the club I play, entertained 20 Japanees golfers. They all ate breakfast. Each had a cart even though two per cart is allowed. After finishing their round they showered had their presentation eat lunch stacks of beer enjojed themselves in the clubhouse. Paid FULL green fee.

Right behind them was a falang bar group. First thing they bitched about playing behind Asians. It will be a six hour round. 11 players 2 carts.

No food straight to first tee. Finished, showered left for Pattaya. Probably a heavily discounted green fee or they would not be there.

Now lets be honest. If you were a golfclub manager or owner which group would you want to cater to?

The one that will earn me the most money. Would that be the one week holiday golfers or the expats living here that might play 10 rounds a year at the course?

[bartpix]

I'm again requesting if anybody out there knows of a Thai Members group at Phoenix or even an individual.

[bartpix]

Any TV members have information about a similiar situation to Phoenix's that happened at Tanya Tanee in Pathum Thani?

[bartpix]

Just learned the Tanya Tanee case was settled out of court with the old members retaining all their old privileges and compensation.

It only applied to the members named in the action.

[golfmadstudent]

The old members at Tanya Tanee did well in fighting back.

I am sure the outcome to the Phoenix battle will end in a win for the members.

[bartpix]

It seems the Consumer Protection Board in Thailand has teeth. They have managed to reverse decisions made by new course owners regarding older / existing shareholders / members.

[bartpix]

How many of you Phoenix Shareholders / Members have received a demand for Baht 24,000 annual maintainance from November 1, 2013 to October 31, 2014.

[Baboy]

How many of you Phoenix Shareholders / Members have received a demand for Baht 24,000 annual maintainance from November 1, 2013 to October 31, 2014.

Missus tells me she got an invoice a couple of days ago . Didnt asked if it arrived by registered mail.

[bartpix]

The word from the mouth of the GM is " Do Not Pay This Demand ". So the current situation for us shareholders / members is do not pay and await the outcome of the legal approach.

[bartpix]

The message today shareholders / members of Phoenix Golf & Country Club is continue with the avoidance of the club as the legal situation is ongoing and

the reaction from The Consumer Protection Board is that what the new owners have done is totally illegal.

They are awaiting an answer from the new owners before taking it further.

[johnsmith2]

The message today shareholders / members of Phoenix Golf & Country Club is (to) continue with the avoidance of the club as the legal situation is ongoing and

the reaction from The Consumer Protection Board is that what the new owners have done is totally illegal.

They are awaiting an answer from the new owners before taking it further.

I agree. I heard that some members now seem to think that the situation has turned sufficiently in our favour to return playing, but I would say that is a serious error. Officially *nothing* has changed yet. If some people now break the boycott, what kind of message does that send to Phoenix management? That eventually all will give in?

No, let's continue to keep the pressure on!

[glanville63]

Does anyone know if the Mike Poustie renegades are still playing at Phoenix ? He seems to think that it will make our case stronger if they continue to play. Can someone explain that one to me please.

[bartpix]

The answer is yes. It is perverted logicto think that playing with reduced numbers will get the message across to Phoenix management.

The only way to show the management that we are serious is to remain away until sense prevails.

What would poor old Arthur Scargill have to say about these renegades?

[bartpix]

For those brother golfers avoiding Phoenix until sense returns and looking for good alternative courses in the area, both Eastern Star and Green Valley are giving great discounts for PSC members even during this high season.

[Fisherman194]

Does anyone know if the Mike Poustie renegades are still playing at Phoenix ? He seems to think that it will make our case stronger if they continue to play. Can someone explain that one to me please.

. Is there any truth in the rumour that paying the 24k is accepting the new terms and conditions ? Therefore will not benefit from any concessions the protesters get.I certainly hope so.

[thinkingman]

Any recent observations on the number of players? Are caddies still quitting?

[nocklaus]

I wish it would be that cheap in Phuket